DPM vs. DC? Problems with billing?

[GymMan]

I've considered both at one time and discussed this with many people with still no resolve. But I'm unsure as to the billing ease of both fields? Many people say DPM is more insurance accepted. But I've seen that many DC's have higher salaries than most DPM's. I know things are changing for the better moneywise for DPM's, but is a DC still capable of a better income (if marketed correctly)? And since you can do overall body treatments vs. only being relugated to lower leg, will this bring in a more wide and diverse patient population? If so, I would guess the DC can/would (even if both were devoid of full insurance billing priviliges) be a higher earning cash-and-carry doctor?

Also, I know DPM's can link with Ortho groups but can't DC's linked with MD's (for prescribing or billing purposes) do quite well also? I'm not here to start a DC-is-a-quack argument so please don't go on about the virtues of the fact, most here would rather the "respect" of a recognised DPM medical profession. I'm not worried what people think of me as long as I enjoy what I do, help patients and make a decent income.

Lastly, I've considered Physical Therapy too, but I'm not keen on going to get a DPT (most Master's programs are gone) and then end up lower salaried than most DC's or DPM's anyway.

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[GetnMyFtNtheDor]

I'm not going to say that a DC is a quack, but I will say that there is a big difference between a DC and a DPM. First, DPMs practice podiatric medicine and can write a prescription, do surgery, admit people to a hospital like a MD/DO/DDS. A DC practices chiropractic manipulation and natural therapies, in the same category as a naturopath. Secondly, many insurance plans do not cover chiro, but a good amount do. A pod is covered by most all insurance carriers including Medicare and Medicaid. Third, the average chiro salary is lower than the average pod salary. Many chiros graduate and can not even find jobs. A chiro that makes more than a pod is usually an "ambulance chaser" who bills insurance companies after someone gets in an accident and wants to sue the insurance company. Very rarely will a chiro earn more than a pod or any other physician, although I'm sure it's possible. Comparing a DC to a DPM is like comparing apples and oranges...

 

[GymMan]

Thanks for replying. I know the DC's that have a few centers (more than one or two) seem to do well. Also those linked to MD's do really well. I'm all about the billing and if I can make a decent wage working with an MD, so be it. I'm curious why more DC's wouldn't link to MD's? Also the DC's that are chasers, would therefore allow other DC's to see this is a lucrative field, correct? If so, I have no problem treating conservatively and referring for drugs/surgery to my partner MD, etc. Too bad these forums have no DC forum to compare or have DC's share inside info. I realize DPM's do admits too (unlike DC's but a DC linked to an MD can admit via his MD) but is this alone really that much more attractive?

 

[GetnMyFtNtheDor]

The reason DCs and MDs don't work together is that their philosophies are different. One is allopathic, one is homeopathic; therefore they usually don't see eye to eye. A DC and MD working together is very progressive. Being the DC in that situation is a unique opportunity few chiros get to experience. I think of all doctors, DC is the most risky if you're trying to make a decent living. If you like the natural philosophy, then I say go for it. Otherwise, you may be stuck struggling as an average chiro

 

[GymMan]

The reason DCs and MDs don't work together is that their philosophies are different. One is allopathic, one is homeopathic; therefore they usually don't see eye to eye. A DC and MD working together is very progressive. Being the DC in that situation is a unique opportunity few chiros get to experience. I think of all doctors, DC is the most risky if you're trying to make a decent living. If you like the natural philosophy, then I say go for it. Otherwise, you may be stuck struggling as an average chiro

I would only want to link to an MD as a DC or a DPM too (via an Ortho group). Other than riding his MD's coattails, it's a losing game I agree for a DC most likely moneywise.

 

[Paulywog]

"...but is a DC still capable of a better income (if marketed correctly)?" Yes they are capable. I know a physical therapist who makes more than an ortho and other surgeons, is it rare...oh yeah. But on average, I would say a DPM makes quite a bit more than a DC. The salary estimators on the internet are not too acurate. I don't trust them.

"And since you can do overall body treatments vs. only being relugated to lower leg, will this bring in a more wide and diverse patient population?" You actually do not do overall body treatments in that DC's can do everything for the body, only homeopathic type stuff. They can't do surgeries and thousands of other procedures that MD/DO do. So the patient population is not that wide and diverse. It is tough for DC's to convince people to their ways. My mom swears by going often to a DC, but I went a few times and I personally feel that I am fine without it. DPM's can perform many more different kinds of procedures.

"I'm not worried what people think of me as long as I enjoy what I do, help patients and make a decent income." From your postings, it seems that your prioroties are in reverse order from the list you provided. Find the profession that you would enjoy, then the money will follow. Each profession you listed has the potential to make more than any of the others. It depends on your skill level and/or personality and/or business skills and/or connections and/or marketing...ect. What profession have you decided to go into?
*These are just my opinions.

 

[Snake Doctor]

Florida State was planning to open up a Chiro school but there was so much opposition that it ended up not opening at all. The funds were there too. You should look into why FSU decided against it. Just something to think about...

 

[ProZackMI]

I've considered both at one time and discussed this with many people with still no resolve. But I'm unsure as to the billing ease of both fields? Many people say DPM is more insurance accepted. But I've seen that many DC's have higher salaries than most DPM's. I know things are changing for the better moneywise for DPM's, but is a DC still capable of a better income (if marketed correctly)? And since you can do overall body treatments vs. only being relugated to lower leg, will this bring in a more wide and diverse patient population? If so, I would guess the DC can/would (even if both were devoid of full insurance billing priviliges) be a higher earning cash-and-carry doctor?

Also, I know DPM's can link with Ortho groups but can't DC's linked with MD's (for prescribing or billing purposes) do quite well also? I'm not here to start a DC-is-a-quack argument so please don't go on about the virtues of the fact, most here would rather the "respect" of a recognised DPM medical profession. I'm not worried what people think of me as long as I enjoy what I do, help patients and make a decent income.

Lastly, I've considered Physical Therapy too, but I'm not keen on going to get a DPT (most Master's programs are gone) and then end up lower salaried than most DC's or DPM's anyway.

I'll say it: a DC is a quack, whereas a DPM is a physician. DCs have the highest default rate among "professionals" on student loan than any other group. DCs are not respected and often end up in other professions. Most MDs and DOs want nothing to do with them.

If you really want to make a good living, practice evidence-based medicine, and provide a full range of services to your patients, go into dentistry or podiatry, NOT chiroquackery.

 

[GymMan]

I'll say it: a DC is a quack, whereas a DPM is a physician. DCs have the highest default rate among "professionals" on student loan than any other group. DCs are not respected and often end up in other professions. Most MDs and DOs want nothing to do with them.

If you really want to make a good living, practice evidence-based medicine, and provide a full range of services to your patients, go into dentistry or podiatry, NOT chiroquackery.

The problem is, I've seen DC's make alot of money or at least more than I could make doing something other than healthcare. I would make good money, go only 4 years (no residency, so more work years and less "student years" in residency) and have an easier or more tolerant academic coursework and understanding faculty (I'm sure the DC students are under the caliber of DPM kids and they're happy to try to keep you in school, rather than lose tuition money when you drop/fail out).

DPM's still have the hard time selling the profession to MD/DO's from what I see. I got a few copies from a friend of his Pod. Mngmnt magazine, and I see the editor say this on more than one occasion. I know either way, you can earn decent wages. But I thought the easier education of DC's would help get you through, obtain the degree and then market (since so much of healthcare is marketing your services, connections, business plans and things Pod. Magazine seems to tell you) and make the connections to an MD to accrue the patients. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[DPMstudent]

The problem is, I've seen DC's make alot of money or at least more than I could make doing something other than healthcare. I would make good money, go only 4 years (no residency, so more work years and less "student years" in residency) and have an easier or more tolerant academic coursework and understanding faculty (I'm sure the DC students are under the caliber of DPM kids and they're happy to try to keep you in school, rather than lose tuition money when you drop/fail out).

DPM's still have the hard time selling the profession to MD/DO's from what I see. I got a few copies from a friend of his Pod. Mngmnt magazine, and I see the editor say this on more than one occasion. I know either way, you can earn decent wages. But I thought the easier education of DC's would help get you through, obtain the degree and then market (since so much of healthcare is marketing your services, connections, business plans and things Pod. Magazine seems to tell you) and make the connections to an MD to accrue the patients. Maybe I'm wrong.

sounds like youre decided then. pursue the "DC" career! good luck!

 

[GymMan]

sounds like youre decided then. pursue the "DC" career! good luck!

Actually it's the other way around. I'm holding a DC acceptance, he holds the DPM one. He wanted to maybe go DC now and I was thinking DPM for sports med but would have to reapply (I've got good enough numbers of 3.7 Sci. and 3.1 overall and high 20's MCAT, but I'm not sure I want 7 years or school/residency vs. the 4 year DC degree). But also workout guys tend to go DC more as it's natural to training. I've never seen a DPM for training injuries but have a DC. So I'm confused.

 

[allenmarchallo]

Actually it's the other way around. I'm holding a DC acceptance, he holds the DPM one. He wanted to maybe go DC now and I was thinking DPM for sports med but would have to reapply (I've got good enough numbers of 3.7 Sci. and 3.1 overall and high 20's MCAT, but I'm not sure I want 7 years or school/residency vs. the 4 year DC degree). But also workout guys tend to go DC more as it's natural to training. I've never seen a DPM for training injuries but have a DC. So I'm confused.

If you're not willing to sacrifice (7) long stress-filled years, then you do not deserve to be a DPM....Sorry, but a DC will never be more respected than a DPM...DPM's do surgery, save limbs, prescribe meds, etc... DC's manipulate..lol..

If you want to work in sports, then you should consider being a PT...They are more accepted to MD/DO community/hospitals than a DC...

Actually, you should probably stick w/ DC b/c it's obvious you don't have a true desire in being a DPM...Sometimes the easiest & shortest route isn't the best!😉

Food for thought....

-HM2

 

[biocmp]

Sadly, I'm not sure you are able to grasp the huge difference between the two professions. Both look appealing because you see both of them making money and both are a form of "healthcare".

You say that you want to go chiro, and partner up with a doctor, but there is strong opposition from many doctors to the chiro profession. (not a small problem) If you would find one doctor who was unscrupulous enough to advocate chiro and all that it entails, you then have to deal with the fact that you may have limited your referrals b/c you have now teamed up with a local doc, and not left yourself open. Referrals are key in healthcare business.

Podiatry on the other hand, is a whole 'nuther beast! You have 4 years of knock yer balls off (apologies to the ladies) studying in order to secure the 3 most intense training years of your career. This finally allows you to treat the public in a way that western medicine sees fit. Then you spend the rest of your life reading up on new published papers and attending continuing education courses to continue to prove your competency!

You sound like you care more about money. Healthcare is not a field for money. You certainly make it, but it is for the people who are ready to work. Work now and the rest of their life. This is not for those who want to hit auto-pilot.

Do not assume that everyone shares your motivations. Care more about the science, the people, and the art of healthcare and perhaps one day you may find the gumption to pursue a field that will make a true difference in your patients lives and in your own.

 

[ProZackMI]

The problem is, I've seen DC's make alot of money or at least more than I could make doing something other than healthcare. I would make good money, go only 4 years (no residency, so more work years and less "student years" in residency) and have an easier or more tolerant academic coursework and understanding faculty (I'm sure the DC students are under the caliber of DPM kids and they're happy to try to keep you in school, rather than lose tuition money when you drop/fail out).

DPM's still have the hard time selling the profession to MD/DO's from what I see. I got a few copies from a friend of his Pod. Mngmnt magazine, and I see the editor say this on more than one occasion. I know either way, you can earn decent wages. But I thought the easier education of DC's would help get you through, obtain the degree and then market (since so much of healthcare is marketing your services, connections, business plans and things Pod. Magazine seems to tell you) and make the connections to an MD to accrue the patients. Maybe I'm wrong.

At my local mall, I see chiropractors trying to get patients in for spinal screenings. It's a joke! They are desperate for patients.

I treated a patient a few years back (a chiropractor) who so deeply regretted his choice of becoming a chiropractor, and hated the fact he had to be a salesman rather than a professional, he omitted the DC off his resume, went back to school to earn a real degree, and now teaches high school history.

MOST chiros only make about 50K, if that, yearly. I don't know where you're getting your figures, but my guess is you're only seeing anecdotal evidence of a few high-earning chiros. As you know from basic stats, the mean does not support your basic premise that money is at the end of the DC degree. You're focusing on the outlying figures, not the average income. Basic Bell Curve stuff.

Another thing to consider: happiness. Money does NOT buy happiness. If you hate your job, have to sell your unethical quackery to unsuspecting idiots who think a chiro can cure their plantar fascitis or asthma or diabetic retinopathy by a few subluxations of L4, you, my friend, are a tool and a *****.

You never see pods at the mall trying to get new "patients" do ya? No. You never see pods working at Kroger's asking if you want paper or plastic, do ya? No.

 

[DPMstudent]

Actually it's the other way around. I'm holding a DC acceptance, he holds the DPM one. He wanted to maybe go DC now and I was thinking DPM for sports med but would have to reapply (I've got good enough numbers of 3.7 Sci. and 3.1 overall and high 20's MCAT, but I'm not sure I want 7 years or school/residency vs. the 4 year DC degree). But also workout guys tend to go DC more as it's natural to training. I've never seen a DPM for training injuries but have a DC. So I'm confused.

sounds like you're decided then. pursue the DC career and have fun. good luck!

 

[ProZackMI]

The problem is, I've seen DC's make alot of money or at least more than I could make doing something other than healthcare. I would make good money, go only 4 years (no residency, so more work years and less "student years" in residency) and have an easier or more tolerant academic coursework and understanding faculty (I'm sure the DC students are under the caliber of DPM kids and they're happy to try to keep you in school, rather than lose tuition money when you drop/fail out).

DPM's still have the hard time selling the profession to MD/DO's from what I see. I got a few copies from a friend of his Pod. Mngmnt magazine, and I see the editor say this on more than one occasion. I know either way, you can earn decent wages. But I thought the easier education of DC's would help get you through, obtain the degree and then market (since so much of healthcare is marketing your services, connections, business plans and things Pod. Magazine seems to tell you) and make the connections to an MD to accrue the patients. Maybe I'm wrong.

Okay, look, I'm not trying to attack you directly, but I want to make a few points and discuss this logically with you.

1) The relative ease or difficulty of any degree program should not guide you into a particular career. Of the health care degrees out there, the DC is the easiest to enter and the easiest to finish. Why is this? It's simple: chiro schools are money makers.

a) they attract the lower caliber students who couldn't make into allo, osteo, pod, pharm, vet, dental, or optometry school. As a last resort to be a "doctor", they go into chiropractic. Most kids have no clue and actually believe that crap about chiros being "chiropractic physicians". They enter and are allowed to stay into a watered down curriculum that is NOT evidence based or based in reality for that matter. Your basic science classes like micro and biochem are often taught by DCs, not PhDs! This is unheard of in pod or medical school!

b) to get into chiro school, one needs only 2 years of community college, with a 1.5 to 2.0 GPA, no admission tests, and a pulse. To get into pod school, you need a BA/BS, MCAT scores that competitive, and a high GPA. Same with law, medicine, pharmacy, etc. In other words, the admission process is competitive.

c) most chiro schools are free-standing and not related to a college or university, therefore they can do whatever they want with few checks and balances (i.e., no academic rigor).

I could go on-and-on about why it's so easy to get into chiro school, so easy to get out of chiro school, and so HARD to make a decent living practicing chiro.

Now, if you're looking for a stable career, good hours, no residency, and a good income, consider:

A) Dentistry - in most states, dentists are NOT required to do a general practice residency. If you don't specialize, you need not do a residency. There are 3 year DDS programs (University of the Pacific) out there. It's not easy to get into, but once you get in, unless you screw up, they won't kick you out. Good money, no residency, lots of career potential, early retirement. Nice career.

B) Pharmacy - some pharmacists do a residency, but many do not. There is retail pharm and clinical pharm. Also, many pharms work in academia and research and industry. A PharmD is four years, usually post-bac, and the pay is very good with good hours. Highly respected too.

C) Optometry - 4 years, no residency, decent money, nice lifestyle.

D) Vet med - 4 yeas, no residency in most cases, and a moderate income, lots of respect, and everyone loves vets!


Also, audiology is now a 4 year doctorate. And if you chose PT, the money is okay, the degree is evidence-based and much more respected than a DC (DPT vs DC), and your options are pretty good.

In summary, don't do chiropractic.

 

[GetnMyFtNtheDor]

Tool and *****... That was great...

 

[NatCh]

You never see pods working at Kroger's asking if you want paper or plastic, do ya? No.

Zing! There is a chiropractor here who during the first few years of opening his practice did work at the local supermarket to supplement his income. Ouch. He wasn't a bagger, but still...

 

[MaseratiGT]

If you hate your job, have to sell your unethical quackery to unsuspecting idiots who think a chiro can cure their plantar fascitis or asthma or diabetic retinopathy by a few subluxations of L4, you, my friend, are a tool and a *****.

I want that as my signature!!!

 

[MaseratiGT]

Done...👍

 

[Feli]

.... You never see pods working at Kroger's asking if you want paper or plastic, do ya? No.

I actually heard (mind you, hearsay) about a podiatrist who was working at a grocery store. He had apparently lost his license for medicare fraud.

I think of that periodically, and it reminds me to keep my billing on the straight and narrow when I get done with residency. There's a difference between smart billing and dishonest billing, and I want to learn that well.

 

[Paulywog]

gymman, Have you shadowed the different medical professions to get an idea of what you might like doing for the rest of your life? The extra 3 years of residency is not that big of deal compared to the remaining 40-70 years of your life, hopefully.
By the way, was your original question answered, or is there still an issue? Was it about making more money as a DC compared to a DPM? you can, but very unlikely.

 

[165007]

Enjoy DC school. 🙂

 

[engineeredout]

D) Vet med - 4 yeas, no residency in most cases, and a moderate income, lots of respect, and everyone loves vets!

Except vet is harder to get into than medical school.

 

[Feli]

Except vet is harder to get into than medical school.

No kiddin, but it's a case of supply and demand. If there were more vet programs, you'd probably see the stellar acceptance stats start to drop fairly significantly. Regardless, I could never do vet:

Get a 4.0 in undergrad, get accepted, do 4+yrs of tough grad training...
...only to get a measly $90k per year to give shots to a mangy, hissing, velcro restrained cat that's trying its best to scratch them. Reeoowwwwww! Reooowwwwww!!!!! 😱


In all seriousness, vets are the best and the brightest when it comes to admissions stats. I was friends with a few pre-vet guys (one actually got in) during undergrad, and they were as smart as heck. The bottom line is just that all pre-health professions students have to pick what fits them... in terms of smarts, goals, and personality. The best way to do that is to shadow docs, vets, pharm, etc and/or find a career mentor IMO; it's something not enough undergrads do.

 

[moldovanits]

I've considered both at one time and discussed this with many people with still no resolve. But I'm unsure as to the billing ease of both fields? Many people say DPM is more insurance accepted. But I've seen that many DC's have higher salaries than most DPM's. I know things are changing for the better moneywise for DPM's, but is a DC still capable of a better income (if marketed correctly)? And since you can do overall body treatments vs. only being relugated to lower leg, will this bring in a more wide and diverse patient population? If so, I would guess the DC can/would (even if both were devoid of full insurance billing priviliges) be a higher earning cash-and-carry doctor?

Also, I know DPM's can link with Ortho groups but can't DC's linked with MD's (for prescribing or billing purposes) do quite well also? I'm not here to start a DC-is-a-quack argument so please don't go on about the virtues of the fact, most here would rather the "respect" of a recognised DPM medical profession. I'm not worried what people think of me as long as I enjoy what I do, help patients and make a decent income.

Lastly, I've considered Physical Therapy too, but I'm not keen on going to get a DPT (most Master's programs are gone) and then end up lower salaried than most DC's or DPM's anyway.

Your comparing apples and oranges

 

[Feli]

You're comparing apples and oranges

I couldn't agree more.

Chiropractors may help a lot of patients, but the profession has a lot of problems to work out (student selectivity, income, too many DCs, etc). Their impossible problem is that, like physical therapy, there is really no objective evidence for the vast majority their treatment modalities.

Another main issue is training, as discussed in this article:
"How can chiropractic become a respected mainstream profession? The example of podiatry"
http://www.chiroandosteo.com/content/16/1/10

 

[DPMstudent]

interesting article

i was just wondering though, why they only talk about podiatry as a non-allopathic profession which has become successful. where does that put optometry, denistry, etc? aren't those professions considered non-allopathic as well?

 

[Feli]

interesting article

i was just wondering though, why they only talk about podiatry as a non-allopathic profession which has become successful. where does that put optometry, denistry, etc? aren't those professions considered non-allopathic as well?

I disagree with a lot of the authors' statements in that article; I just posted it to show an example of how podiatry is generally much more trained, accpeted, highly paid, etc than chiropractic medicine.

Podiatry is an allopathic profession IMO. So is dent, optometry, and most DO practices (the modern 95+% which just emulate MDs). Osteopathy (in its true form with "manipulations"), physical therapy, acupuncture, chiro, etc are not allopathic... again, IMO.

It's all in how you define allopathy, though. People assume allopathic means MD, but in reality, I consider it to just mean modern, evidence based Western medicine.
http://www.reference.com/browse/allopathic

Podiatry, if practiced properly, is highly based on objective evidence (which surgeries have the best proven results, which meds are the most effective, which amputation levels will statistically heal, etc etc etc).

 

[DPMstudent]

I disagree with a lot of the authors' statements in that article; I just posted it to show an example of how podiatry is generally much more trained, accpeted, highly paid, etc than chiropractic medicine.

Podiatry is an allopathic profession IMO. So is dent, optometry, and most DO practices (the modern 95+% which just emulate MDs). Osteopathy (in its true form with "manipulations"), physical therapy, acupuncture, chiro, etc are not allopathic... again, IMO.

It's all in how you define allopathy, though. People assume allopathic means MD, but in reality, I consider it to just mean modern, evidence based Western medicine.
http://www.reference.com/browse/allopathic

Podiatry, if practiced properly, is highly based on objective evidence (which surgeries have the best proven results, which meds are the most effective, which amputation levels will statistically heal, etc etc etc).

that was my understanding as well, that DPM, OD, DDS/DMD was more of allopathic medicine, but this article kept going on and on about how podiatry is non allopathic, etc. it was kind of nice to see podiatry as a model for other people, but at the same time it seemed odd the way they stated things.

 

[medsteu]

I'll say it: a DC is a quack, whereas a DPM is a physician. DCs have the highest default rate among "professionals" on student loan than any other group. DCs are not respected and often end up in other professions. Most MDs and DOs want nothing to do with them.

DPMs also have a very high default rate and calling a DPM a "physician" is up to the state of licensure. Lastly, DPMs often do not work well with MDs either so your opinions are largely subjective and emotional rather than fact based. If you're going to give advice, make sure you're facts are straight.

If you really want to make a good living, practice evidence-based medicine, and provide a full range of services to your patients, go into dentistry or podiatry, NOT chiroquackery.

I know several DCs that do very well with special spinal therapies. Call a DC for what they are - a physical therapist. Dentistry is where a very healthy living can be made as the field is well developed and respected. I'd dare say that going into podiatry can be just as risky as chiropractics.

 

[DPMstudent]

DPMs also have a very high default rate and calling a DPM a "physician" is up to the state of licensure. Lastly, DPMs often do not work well with MDs either so your opinions are largely subjective and emotional rather than fact based. If you're going to give advice, make sure you're facts are straight.



I know several DCs that do very well with special spinal therapies. Call a DC for what they are - a physical therapist. Dentistry is where a very healthy living can be made as the field is well developed and respected. I'd dare say that going into podiatry can be just as risky as chiropractics.

considering prozack is an MD, there may be something to his posts. maybe its just like that in michigan?

 

[jonwill]

DPMs also have a very high default rate and calling a DPM a "physician" is up to the state of licensure. Lastly, DPMs often do not work well with MDs either so your opinions are largely subjective and emotional rather than fact based. If you're going to give advice, make sure you're facts are straight.



I know several DCs that do very well with special spinal therapies. Call a DC for what they are - a physical therapist. Dentistry is where a very healthy living can be made as the field is well developed and respected. I'd dare say that going into podiatry can be just as risky as chiropractics.

Extremely uneducated post. DPM's biggest employers are multispecialty groups and ortho groups. The majority of our referrals come from MD's. DPM's are members of medical staff (and even Chief of Medical Staff) and hold surgical privileges at nearly every major hospital across the country.

That doesn't sound quite like chiro to me 🙂

 

[MaseratiGT]

DPMs also have a very high default rate and calling a DPM a "physician" is up to the state of licensure. Lastly, DPMs often do not work well with MDs either so your opinions are largely subjective and emotional rather than fact based. If you're going to give advice, make sure you're facts are straight.

The pot calling the kettle black.

Where are you getting your information? How "often" is it that DPM's are at the throat of MD's when we get a majority of referrals from them? 🙄

 

[NatCh]

DPMs often do not work well with MDs

What??? That's news to me! My practice is 75% physician referrals from FP, IM, Rheumatology, Neurology, Endocrine, Pulmonology, ER, and Urgent Care.

There might be silly animosity in pre-med and med school, but I think we get along pretty well in practice.

 

[215512]

.

 

[dyk343]

Okay, look, I'm not trying to attack you directly, but I want to make a few points and discuss this logically with you.

1) The relative ease or difficulty of any degree program should not guide you into a particular career. Of the health care degrees out there, the DC is the easiest to enter and the easiest to finish. Why is this? It's simple: chiro schools are money makers.

a) they attract the lower caliber students who couldn't make into allo, osteo, pod, pharm, vet, dental, or optometry school. As a last resort to be a "doctor", they go into chiropractic. Most kids have no clue and actually believe that crap about chiros being "chiropractic physicians". They enter and are allowed to stay into a watered down curriculum that is NOT evidence based or based in reality for that matter. Your basic science classes like micro and biochem are often taught by DCs, not PhDs! This is unheard of in pod or medical school!

b) to get into chiro school, one needs only 2 years of community college, with a 1.5 to 2.0 GPA, no admission tests, and a pulse. To get into pod school, you need a BA/BS, MCAT scores that competitive, and a high GPA. Same with law, medicine, pharmacy, etc. In other words, the admission process is competitive.

c) most chiro schools are free-standing and not related to a college or university, therefore they can do whatever they want with few checks and balances (i.e., no academic rigor).

I could go on-and-on about why it's so easy to get into chiro school, so easy to get out of chiro school, and so HARD to make a decent living practicing chiro.

Now, if you're looking for a stable career, good hours, no residency, and a good income, consider:

A) Dentistry - in most states, dentists are NOT required to do a general practice residency. If you don't specialize, you need not do a residency. There are 3 year DDS programs (University of the Pacific) out there. It's not easy to get into, but once you get in, unless you screw up, they won't kick you out. Good money, no residency, lots of career potential, early retirement. Nice career.

B) Pharmacy - some pharmacists do a residency, but many do not. There is retail pharm and clinical pharm. Also, many pharms work in academia and research and industry. A PharmD is four years, usually post-bac, and the pay is very good with good hours. Highly respected too.

C) Optometry - 4 years, no residency, decent money, nice lifestyle.

D) Vet med - 4 yeas, no residency in most cases, and a moderate income, lots of respect, and everyone loves vets!


Also, audiology is now a 4 year doctorate. And if you chose PT, the money is okay, the degree is evidence-based and much more respected than a DC (DPT vs DC), and your options are pretty good.

In summary, don't do chiropractic.

...You have not done your research on Chiro schools. I am not pre chiro or anything but the profession deserves more respect than it gets.
I go to a very respectable chiro. He is honestly there for healthcare. He recommended me to a MD because he said he felt he couldn't help me. That was only after 3 visits with my conditions remaining constant.

Things to look for in a GOOD chiro... do they manually stretch you (if not they likly want you to come back right away for more money)? Do they give you stretches to do in the evenings/at home (again, they want your money)? Do they reccomend that you come back 15 times/week (this plays off the stretching just described). Do they do muscle stemming? Do they seem geniunaly concerned about your state of health?

And the minimum GPA is a 2.5 for entering DC schools (not 1.5-2.0). and you need a minimum of 90 semester hours JUST LIKE POD SCHOOL and the pre-requisites are nearly identical. ...Sure they are easier to get into than Pod schools, (but don't say they have watered down curriculum). Also, Pod schools are also quite east to get into!

Chiro schools are also not easy to graduate from. Drop out rate is high (maybe because they DO accept people with lower gpa's and lower ambitions). But most schools ARE taught by PhD's (ex.. Palmer). Also recent studies have been posted (i think by the university of Virginia) that 90 some percent of people who visited chiros felt that their experince was beneficial.

I have a friend in chiropractory and I looked into it as a possible carrer a few years ago because I really like my chiro. However the risk is too high for me. Alot of them struggle to make it because their ethics are not supported by alot of people (many of which have never even been to one!) But that is the patients opinion. To each their own.

I can truthfully say that my chiro HAS helped me in the past and HAS (also) recommended that I see a MD because he didn't feel I was going to get better w his healthcare.

I know I'm going to get critisized but gymman... Do what you want.

 

[DRCM]

...You have not done your research on Chiro schools. I am not pre chiro or anything but the profession deserves more respect than it gets.
I go to a very respectable chiro. He is honestly there for healthcare. He recommended me to a MD because he said he felt he couldn't help me. That was only after 3 visits with my conditions remaining constant.

Things to look for in a GOOD chiro... do they manually stretch you (if not they likly want you to come back right away for more money)? Do they give you stretches to do in the evenings/at home (again, they want your money)? Do they reccomend that you come back 15 times/week (this plays off the stretching just described). Do they do muscle stemming? Do they seem geniunaly concerned about your state of health?

And the minimum GPA is a 2.5 for entering DC schools (not 1.5-2.0). and you need a minimum of 90 semester hours JUST LIKE POD SCHOOL and the pre-requisites are nearly identical. ...Sure they are easier to get into than Pod schools, (but don't say they have watered down curriculum). Also, Pod schools are also quite east to get into!

Chiro schools are also not easy to graduate from. Drop out rate is high (maybe because they DO accept people with lower gpa's and lower ambitions). But most schools ARE taught by PhD's (ex.. Palmer). Also recent studies have been posted (i think by the university of Virginia) that 90 some percent of people who visited chiros felt that their experince was beneficial.

I have a friend in chiropractory and I looked into it as a possible carrer a few years ago because I really like my chiro. However the risk is too high for me. Alot of them struggle to make it because their ethics are not supported by alot of people (many of which have never even been to one!) But that is the patients opinion. To each their own.

I can truthfully say that my chiro HAS helped me in the past and HAS (also) recommended that I see a MD because he didn't feel I was going to get better w his healthcare.

I know I'm going to get critisized but gymman... Do what you want.

I definitely agree. I think chiro doesn't get enough respect. I also find it weird how [pre-]pods constantly say that podiatry is looked down upon by other med professions, but are here doing the same to chiropractic. Basically, both professions should be respected areas of the health field and both have their benefits for their patients. Why can't everyone just work together for the main cause of helping people rather than talking sh** here and there? Even if their philosophies is different, both are helpful for patients, different philosophies and all. This goes for DPT, too. I'm not interested in becoming a chiropractor at all but I still think they deserve some applause (the good ones at least).

 

[DPMstudent]

I think the issue is (lack of)evidence based medicine.

 

[dtrack22]

Also recent studies have been posted (i think by the university of Virginia) that 90 some percent of people who visited chiros felt that their experince was beneficial.

Who is going to say that a back massage was NOT beneficial?

The biggest problem I have with the Chiropractic philosophy is there stance on spinal manipulation and adjustment. Your spine is a very strong structure (surprise, surprise) that cannot be significantly adjusted through manual therapy, kinetics, or kinematics. That should make perfect sense to anyone who stops to think about it for a second. Would the vertebrae and the spine as a whole be beneficial to us as a species if it could just be moved into place where we want it? Yeah, soft tissue work is great and can relieve tension for temporary relief but too many Chiropractors do not see themselves as massage therapists with some more in depth anat and phys knowledge (that's all they really are IMO)

My sister has scoliosis (not severe) but this PT thought he could "manipulate" and "adjust" her back through various exercises, stretches, etc. Needless to say there was no change in the degree of curvature in her spine after a few months of "treatment". However, the back brace that she wore to bed each night after seeing an ortho seemed to help (pre and post x-rays showed slight improvement).

 

[Feli]

I think the issue is (lack of)evidence based medicine.

Absolutely.^

I posted on this awhile back with regard to PT, and the same logic applies here...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=7077278#post7077278

 

[sguiliana]

But I've seen that many DC's have higher salaries than most DPM's. quote]

you better re-check your source for that information. very untrue.

 

[dyk343]

But I've seen that many DC's have higher salaries than most DPM's. quote]

you better re-check your source for that information. very untrue.

Agreed.