DRAMATIC Change of Heart - Any advice GREATLY appreciated!

[goodoll]

Hey everyone, if you are taking the time to read this, I am genuinely very grateful. I really am at quite a loss for what to do, and some kind of direction would not only be hugely beneficial but also very anxiety relieving!

Here is my situation:

I messed up and broke the cardinal rule for career choice. I did choose to pursue a career based solely on the money. I graduated from UCLA last year, with a stellar GPA in philosophy, and wondered, well what the hell am I going to do now? Like most people with a useless liberal arts degree, law school seemed like the only option. So I have spent the last year of my life preparing for law school and have been clerking at a law firm. I just got admitted to UCLA law – and I will be turning down their offer. The time spent as a law clerk allowed me to reexamine my life, and it revealed something to me that I have been hiding from. Psychology has always been my path, but my own greed marred my career path, and now I am feeling pretty screwed.

I want to go back to school to pursue a PhD in psychology, but I have no idea where to start. I only took an intro to Psychology class at UCLA, and loved it, but nothing beyond that. I am currently enrolled in two psychology courses from a nearby city college (I have to take both online since I need to work full time to support myself).

I apologize for the long post, but in summary:

(1) Is it too late to start? (age 24)

(2) Should I continue to take psychology courses at community colleges?

(3) What else should I do to bolster my application? After researching this forum, it seems like research experience is the absolute best thing I can do, but how do I gain this experience now?

(4) Should I volunteer at mental illness hospital?

(5) What steps should I take to achieving my career dreams? (I am so lost)

Thank you so much for reading this post. Bless you all.

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[Temperance]

(3) What else should I do to bolster my application? After researching this forum, it seems like research experience is the absolute best thing I can do, but how do I gain this experience now?

You mention being interested in psychology. What subfield most interests you? For what career in psychology are you aiming?

Try to get a volunteer position in a research lab. If you are still close to UCLA, would it be possible to contact psychology faculty members at UCLA whose labs interest you? It may be difficult at first given that your experience so far is taking three courses, but start now. See if there is a program at your community college that will allow you to do a summer research internship at a university.

 

[goodoll]

Can I apply for research opportunities despite not attending the school?

 

[florahighline]

(1) Is it too late to start? (age 24)

I don't believe it is ever too late to start. I was 28 when I started my PhD. 24 is fine.

(2) Should I continue to take psychology courses at community colleges?

Community college classes are not usually helpful for a PhD program because they do not approach with any rigor the importance of research in psychology. If you're going to take classes, do so through a post-bac, extension certificate, or other post-undergraduate type of program. You want coursework that shows that you are furthering your education at a higher level. Community college is at a lower level. It would be similar to a high school student going back and taking some middle school classes to improve their college applications, almost.

Your intro to psychology course at UCLA presumably covered almost everything a series of community college psychology courses offer. If you do take community college classes, you should looking around at each school and find the one that has the best/most classes in the field, and take the most obscure ones they offer. Online classes at community college are good for this reason because you can take them from pretty much anywhere.

(3) What else should I do to bolster my application? After researching this forum, it seems like research experience is the absolute best thing I can do, but how do I gain this experience now?

Research is important. Like the previous poster said, it might be difficult to find them but definitely contact psychology faculty members at UCLA whose labs interest you.

(4) Should I volunteer at mental illness hospital?

This depends on what subfield of psych you want to do. Also, what would you be doing as a volunteer? If you are doing paperwork, its probably a waste of time. If you are actively involved in patient care, then it could be a good idea. A lot of pre-psychology and pre-medicine students think that volunteering is the key to PhD/MD admissions. It's not - I did not volunteer. While volunteering at a mental illness hospital would signal to adcoms that you have a good heart, it otherwise is not helpful in admissions unless you can relate it to your application. Your time volunteering could be better spent researching mental illness.

(5) What steps should I take to achieving my career dreams? (I am so lost)

Figure out the fastest way to achieve your dreams (if you know what they are). If you are interested in Psychology, figure out why. There are other programs (such as DO, MD, professional licenses) that could fast-track achieving your career dreams depending on your interests. A PhD (or an MD) are both very long routes, depending on what your dreams in psychology are, they may or may not be necessary.


A few questions for you.....

What was your major in if it was not Psychology? I think you should speak with some psychology PhD students and see if what they're doing is what you want to be doing. I think you could find some at UCLA and they would be happy to share their experiences with you. If you could share more about what your goals in psychology are, we could help more. It's a broad, broad field.

 

[Temperance]

Can I apply for research opportunities despite not attending the school?

Yes, some labs do take non-matriculated volunteers. Try outside of UCLA, as well; Los Angeles has the benefit of having several universities in the area that do research.

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[psychRA]

(2) Should I continue to take psychology courses at community colleges?

Community college classes are not usually helpful for a PhD program because they do not approach with any rigor the importance of research in psychology. If you're going to take classes, do so through a post-bac, extension certificate, or other post-undergraduate type of program. You want coursework that shows that you are furthering your education at a higher level. Community college is at a lower level. It would be similar to a high school student going back and taking some middle school classes to improve their college applications, almost.

Your intro to psychology course at UCLA presumably covered almost everything a series of community college psychology courses offer. If you do take community college classes, you should looking around at each school and find the one that has the best/most classes in the field, and take the most obscure ones they offer. Online classes at community college are good for this reason because you can take them from pretty much anywhere.

I have a different take on this one. Community college courses aren't inherently inferior or at a lower level - plenty of people begin their college coursework at community colleges before transferring to 4-year institutions. I would actually advise against taking on the expense of a formal post-bac program, and I don't think there's any need for an extension certificate, either.

I wasn't a psych major in college, and the advice I got was to take coursework that would be equivalent to covering the basic requirements for a psych major. I worked 9-5 as a paid research assistant for a couple of years while taking night courses at a few different local colleges/universities/extension schools. I can only speak to my own experience, but I got into multiple fully funded PhD programs.

 

[florahighline]

I have a different take on this one. Community college courses aren't inherently inferior or at a lower level - plenty of people begin their college coursework at community colleges before transferring to 4-year institutions. I would actually advise against taking on the expense of a formal post-bac program, and I don't think there's any need for an extension certificate, either.

Lower level, maybe not. But I believe they are inherently inferior than those that you could take at a research university. There is a reason that community college classes, even if they have the same title, do not count as upper level credit at four year colleges. PhD programs are more interested in your upper level work than your lower level work.

Expense of a formal post-bac or extension certificate depends on what op actually wants to do. He or she has not clarified what it is that draws them to Psychology. The answer to this depends on what op wants to do. I advise against taking on the expense of six+ years preparing for and entering a formal PhD program to delay *starting* your life in your early thirties.

 

[goodoll]

(1) Is it too late to start? (age 24)


A few questions for you.....

What was your major in if it was not Psychology? I think you should speak with some psychology PhD students and see if what they're doing is what you want to be doing. I think you could find some at UCLA and they would be happy to share their experiences with you. If you could share more about what your goals in psychology are, we could help more. It's a broad, broad field.

I studied philosophy, because I wanted to figure out what makes a good life.
After taking some time off, I decided I want to figure out what causes mental illness, as well as coming up with treatment plans for people who are suffering.

So the field I would be entering is clinical, but I do not feel a PsyD is enough, because as stated, I also would want to be involved in research discerning effective treatments.

 

[goodoll]

Expense of a formal post-bac or extension certificate depends on what op actually wants to do. He or she has not clarified what it is that draws them to Psychology. The answer to this depends on what op wants to do. I advise against taking on the expense of six+ years preparing for and entering a formal PhD program to delay *starting* your life in your early thirties.

What I want to do is research into mental health disorders, like anxiety and depression, as well as treatment.

 

[bpsydme]

This may not be the advice you want to see, but I would strongly encourage you to really think about this before making the leap to psychology. I didn't realize I wanted to go into clinical psych until after college, at 21 years old, and almost 10 years later, I am only about to get my PhD. Yet, I still have 2 more years of postdoc until I can finally be an independent practitioner. Here's my timeline, and what you will be looking at should you decide to pursue a clinical psych PhD:
1) 1-3 years of RA work, or maybe getting a master's. During this time, if you're an RA you will get paid very little (20-35K usually). If you get a master's you will be paying them and going into more debt.
2) Let's say that you get into a reputable clinical psych program. You will do 4-6 years of graduate school + 1 year of internship = 5-7 years.
3) Postdoc = 1 year for non-neuropsychology clinical work; 2 years for neuropsychology; and 1 to 4+ if you're doing a research postdoc.

None of these steps are guaranteed. In other words, after doing an RAship, you are definitely not guaranteed an acceptance to grad school; there's a chance you won't match for internship; and there is a (small) chance you will have difficulty finding a postdoc. Do most people get them? Yes. But at each step, you have to apply, interview, and spend weeks/months stressing about the possibility for not being able to advance to the next step.

All in all, you're looking at a MINIMUM of 1+5+1 = 7 years and upwards of 10+ years until you are an "early career" professional. In your case, it is very doubtful that you will be competitive this time next year since you have no research/clinical experience and have a very vague idea of what you want to study. Saying you want to study mental health disorders and their treatments is akin to saying you want to go to law school to study law. During graduate school, internship, and potentially postdoc, you will also be moving around for each of these steps. So imagine yourself being in your late 20s/early 30s, while the rest of people your age are mid-career, you have to move for the 2nd time for a 1-year position.

I spent a very long time deciding on career as well, and thought that clin psych was the answer. While I find it interesting, and I have been relatively successful in my graduate career, I would, in a heartbeat, go back and do something that doesn't take years and years of training.

 

[deleted106747]

What I want to do is research into mental health disorders, like anxiety and depression, as well as treatment.

I would suggest you narrow this down a bit, be more specific. Researching mental health disorders like anxiety & depression is rather like saying you want to research diabetes. It's too broad. Look into anxiety & depression research and treatment that's already out there, read up on treatments, and look into graduate program potential mentors who match your interests.

I was 30 when I went to graduate school. I don't fully recommend going that late, as my career only started about five years ago, but I certainly do not think you are too old.

 

[wtfook]

This may not be the advice you want to see, but I would strongly encourage you to really think about this before making the leap to psychology. I didn't realize I wanted to go into clinical psych until after college, at 21 years old, and almost 10 years later, I am only about to get my PhD. Yet, I still have 2 more years of postdoc until I can finally be an independent practitioner. Here's my timeline, and what you will be looking at should you decide to pursue a clinical psych PhD:
1) 1-3 years of RA work, or maybe getting a master's. During this time, if you're an RA you will get paid very little (20-35K usually). If you get a master's you will be paying them and going into more debt.
2) Let's say that you get into a reputable clinical psych program. You will do 4-6 years of graduate school + 1 year of internship = 5-7 years.
3) Postdoc = 1 year for non-neuropsychology clinical work; 2 years for neuropsychology; and 1 to 4+ if you're doing a research postdoc.

None of these steps are guaranteed. In other words, after doing an RAship, you are definitely not guaranteed an acceptance to grad school; there's a chance you won't match for internship; and there is a (small) chance you will have difficulty finding a postdoc. Do most people get them? Yes. But at each step, you have to apply, interview, and spend weeks/months stressing about the possibility for not being able to advance to the next step.

All in all, you're looking at a MINIMUM of 1+5+1 = 7 years and upwards of 10+ years until you are an "early career" professional. In your case, it is very doubtful that you will be competitive this time next year since you have no research/clinical experience and have a very vague idea of what you want to study. Saying you want to study mental health disorders and their treatments is akin to saying you want to go to law school to study law. During graduate school, internship, and potentially postdoc, you will also be moving around for each of these steps. So imagine yourself being in your late 20s/early 30s, while the rest of people your age are mid-career, you have to move for the 2nd time for a 1-year position.

I spent a very long time deciding on career as well, and thought that clin psych was the answer. While I find it interesting, and I have been relatively successful in my graduate career, I would, in a heartbeat, go back and do something that doesn't take years and years of training.

I think what @bpsydme said should definitely be fully taken into consideration. A doctorate is a VERY VERY long time commitment. You should not have a nebulous, vague idea of what you want from the field. If your only goal is practice then consider a master's instead. I am 29-years-old and am only starting my first year of my PhD. I am different in that this is what I am passionate about and with every year of additional training I have taken (master's and now this year), I have become more and more sure that this is what I want to do. For me, every additional step is exciting because I will be learning and gaining experience in something I love. If you look at the time line bpsydme described, and it sounds exhausting, tiresome, or just another hurdle to cross then I would recommend taking a couple years to learn about yourself and do more soul searching. If you look at it and go, "that sounds exciting and I'm down," then go for it. But as of now, you need more research experience and a clearer sense of what you actually want to do before you can be competitive.

 

[foreverbull]

Are you only interested in clinical research? I would strongly suggest that "research only" folks go into experimental psychology and not pursue a degree that requires practice. It's hard to tell from what you've said if you are interested in providing therapy. Clinical training is highly specialized and rigorous at the doctoral level, so it's not for folks who have zero practice interest. If you have any uncertainty about your own interest/skill in practice, work as a counselor/mental health tech in a psychiatric residential treatment facility or hospital. That is the best clinical training prior to grad school you can get, in my opinion (good training, team-based, use de-escalation skills/counseling skills to manage emotional distress).

It's not too late to start, but as others have said here, you're looking at 7-10 years from where you're at now to graduation and/or postdoc, and a lot can change in that time. If it's your life dream and worth the cost and sacrifices, go for it. If you have uncertainty and aren't sure if you want to sacrifice that much of your life, then you may want to consider other options that are related and talk to some psychologists who are currently doing research in your area of interest and/or are out in the field.

 

[goodoll]

Lower level, maybe not. But I believe they are inherently inferior than those that you could take at a research university. There is a reason that community college classes, even if they have the same title, do not count as upper level credit at four year colleges. PhD programs are more interested in your upper level work than your lower level work.

Expense of a formal post-bac or extension certificate depends on what op actually wants to do. He or she has not clarified what it is that draws them to Psychology. The answer to this depends on what op wants to do. I advise against taking on the expense of six+ years preparing for and entering a formal PhD program to delay *starting* your life in your early thirties.

I am drawn to psychology because it is generally what I spend my free mind time on. The books I always read in my free time are self-help, and are always psychology related (your erroneous zones, guide to being happy, etc.).

I find the most fulfillment in my life when I am able to impart wisdom onto other people, and growing up I have often been told I would make a good psychologist.

Frankly, learning about the mind and being able to help people with their problems while also broadening the field seems extremely intrinsically rewarding to me.

I think what @bpsydme said should definitely be fully taken into consideration. A doctorate is a VERY VERY long time commitment. You should not have a nebulous, vague idea of what you want from the field. If your only goal is practice then consider a master's instead. I am 29-years-old and am only starting my first year of my PhD. I am different in that this is what I am passionate about and with every year of additional training I have taken (master's and now this year), I have become more and more sure that this is what I want to do. For me, every additional step is exciting because I will be learning and gaining experience in something I love. If you look at the time line bpsydme described, and it sounds exhausting, tiresome, or just another hurdle to cross then I would recommend taking a couple years to learn about yourself and do more soul searching. If you look at it and go, "that sounds exciting and I'm down," then go for it. But as of now, you need more research experience and a clearer sense of what you actually want to do before you can be competitive.

Unfortunately, as to the soul searching point, that is basically what I have been doing for the last six years. You can only do so much soul searching before you need to begin your life. Otherwise, by the time your done soul searching, your soul will have already left your body.

Are you only interested in clinical research? I would strongly suggest that "research only" folks go into experimental psychology and not pursue a degree that requires practice. It's hard to tell from what you've said if you are interested in providing therapy. Clinical training is highly specialized and rigorous at the doctoral level, so it's not for folks who have zero practice interest. If you have any uncertainty about your own interest/skill in practice, work as a counselor/mental health tech in a psychiatric residential treatment facility or hospital. That is the best clinical training prior to grad school you can get, in my opinion (good training, team-based, use de-escalation skills/counseling skills to manage emotional distress).

It's not too late to start, but as others have said here, you're looking at 7-10 years from where you're at now to graduation and/or postdoc, and a lot can change in that time. If it's your life dream and worth the cost and sacrifices, go for it. If you have uncertainty and aren't sure if you want to sacrifice that much of your life, then you may want to consider other options that are related and talk to some psychologists who are currently doing research in your area of interest and/or are out in the field.

I am interested in researching as well as providing therapy.

Do I not need any prerequisities to becoming a counselor/mental health tech? It seems like a hard job to get given my law background!



More of a general question to anyone who is kind enough to answer: How do I start narrowing down my research interests? Right now, I am most interested in how mindfulness (meditation, yoga, Eastern practices) positively affect mental states. Is this a legitimate research interest?

Warm Regards

 

[deleted106747]

I'd narrow down mindfulness to mental states - the topic is widely researched. Perhaps apply it to a special population.

 

[goodoll]

I'd narrow down mindfulness to mental states - the topic is widely researched. Perhaps apply it to a special population.

Which field of psychology is mental states? Is that Clinical?

 

[deleted106747]

Which field of psychology is mental states? Is that Clinical?

sorry, I was paraphrasing your post of being interested in how mindfulness positively affects mental states - that's still broad so I'd recommend focusing on how mindfulness might help particular populations, diseases, etc.

 

[goodoll]

sorry, I was paraphrasing your post of being interested in how mindfulness positively affects mental states - that's still broad so I'd recommend focusing on how mindfulness might help particular populations, diseases, etc.

What about how Mindfulness practices affect people with depression? Is this still too broad?

 

[deleted106747]

What about how Mindfulness practices affect people with depression? Is this still too broad?

Yes - I'd start by looking at the research that's been done and see what you might add to it that's unique and different:
http://mbct.com/clinical-research/

 

[goodoll]

Thank you everyone for all of the advice! I think I decided Berkeley's Post Bac Program would be right for me. (I want the academic as well as research rigor). DOes anyone have any advice on getting accepted to the program??

 

[goodoll]

Has anyone been in the program? Are there better programs?

 

[Prospective2018]

UC Berkeley is considered one of the very best psychology departments for graduate study in the country, both department-wide and as a clinical program. As far as postbac programs go, theirs is regarded highly, but I’d encourage supplementing it with direct research experience, as a postbac alone anywhere isn’t enough to be competitive for graduate school. I don’t know if anyone is doing mindfulness research in the Berkeley clinical program, but you can look for PIs with research that converges with your interests. In terms of strengthening your application for the postbac, you’ll be applying with others who also are making a change to psychology for some reason or another. Make sure your narrative and your “why” for pursuing psychology is 1) cohesive and 2) cannot interchanged with some other kind of study (for example, your reasons for pursuing psychology being ‘I want to help others’ - that could also be accomplished in law, medicine, education, etc. Make sure ‘why the change to psychology’ is clear). That may come from articulating how you came to your current interest and what study in psychology will contribute beyond the background you already have. Good luck!

 

[goodoll]

UC Berkeley is considered one of the very best psychology departments for graduate study in the country, both department-wide and as a clinical program. As far as postbac programs go, theirs is regarded highly, but I’d encourage supplementing it with direct research experience, as a postbac alone anywhere isn’t enough to be competitive for graduate school. I don’t know if anyone is doing mindfulness research in the Berkeley clinical program, but you can look for PIs with research that converges with your interests. In terms of strengthening your application for the postbac, you’ll be applying with others who also are making a change to psychology for some reason or another. Make sure your narrative and your “why” for pursuing psychology is 1) cohesive and 2) cannot interchanged with some other kind of study (for example, your reasons for pursuing psychology being ‘I want to help others’ - that could also be accomplished in law, medicine, education, etc. Make sure ‘why the change to psychology’ is clear). That may come from articulating how you came to your current interest and what study in psychology will contribute beyond the background you already have. Good luck!

Thank you for the helpful advice! It was my understanding that Berkeley's postbac gives you the direct research experience (10h/w).