DrNP and ND programs

[BlackSails]

no bright lights, no invasive overhead paging."

Genius! If we replace doctors with shamans, we can use the spirit messenging system instead of pagers. That way nobody will ever not get their pages!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[zenman]

which only proves that your mumbo-jumbo does not heal anything except make the patient feel more comfortable. You use goat skin chaps and I use ativan. It does not heal but provides comfort - I'd take ativan any day over a bunch of chanting and dancing.

So does this admission finally end the discussion shamman? You can not use your glowy magic hands to heal UTI?

as always

oldman

I've never had anyone come to me with a UTI as that's usually something you can handle. They go to a shaman for healing when you have done all you can do...remember?

 

[lawguil]

I've never had anyone come to me with a UTI as that's usually something you can handle. They go to a shaman for healing when you have done all you can do...remember?

Perfect!

the types of people who have exhausted all the options are typically found at the hospitals or similar centers. Please start with the children!

No more excuses - please heal them! ok

 

[zenman]

Perfect!

the types of people who have exhausted all the options are typically found at the hospitals or similar centers. Please start with the children!

No more excuses - please heal them! ok

This seems like the type of concrete thinking found in....


By the way I worked with some kids this weekend. Even had a few at a fire ceremony...pics to follow sometime today.

 

[oldManDO2009]

shamman,

when I have exhausted all possible treatments for a condition - what are you going to do?

Really, what are you going to do? If you think a fire ceremony, chanting or drumming will cure ANYTHING you are delusional and plain crazy.

I know you are not crazy so just admit that you do not cure anything other than emotional discomfort and we are good.

I have sat in many a sweat lodge and participated in many traditional healing ceremonies but every single patient comes to the clinic to manage their diabetes and other health problems. I have never seen ONE person cured by such ceremonies.

IF you have proof, in the form of pre-treatment labs, rays and exam - your treatment - and post treatment labs and xrays that prove your ceremonial drumming and chanting cured the disease (not psychiatric condition) I will make a public apology and or statement and take up shammanism.

Until then just admit you manage the psycho somatic part of the human condition and move on...

 

[zenman]

shamman,

when I have exhausted all possible treatments for a condition - what are you going to do?

Really, what are you going to do? If you think a fire ceremony, chanting or drumming will cure ANYTHING you are delusional and plain crazy.

Now you have just wiped out much of the field of psychology and medical anthropology. You are going to make those guys mad at you.

I know you are not crazy so just admit that you do not cure anything other than emotional discomfort and we are good.

<snip>

Until then just admit you manage the psycho somatic part of the human condition and move on...

I was just reading the other day about a cardiologist who went back and completed a residency in psychiatry because he found out that 75% of his patients had heart disease because of the psycho somatic part you laugh at.

And UTI's...from a patient of a friend who is a shaman: "I have a history of recurring urinary tract infections. When I get one of these infections and I first start to experience symptoms, I generally make an appointment to see my doctor right away so that I can leave a urine sample for urinalysis, culture and sensitivity testing. It often takes several days for the results of the culture and sensitivity testing to come back from the lab so that my doctor can determine which strain of bacteria is present and which antibiotics to prescribe for me. Those several days of waiting are often very very uncomfortable ones for me. For me, bladder/ urethral analgesics just never have felt quite right.

So, the last time this happened, Mike offered to help me, explaining to me that he could try to balance out some of the energy centers in the body, to help me heal. When I heard this, I was extremely skeptical at first, but in my desperation, I told him to give it a try. When he was finished, I was shocked. The pain and discomfort from the UTI improved almost immediately. I was able to make it through until my antibiotic was ready for me to pick up, relatively pain and discomfort-free."

http://www.theshamanwithin.us/Testamonials.html

 

[oldManDO2009]

uhm zenman this does not prove anything you are in the land of anecdotal fairy tales of shammanistic treatments


I think this proves my point...

 

[zenman]

uhm zenman this does not prove anything you are in the land of anecdotal fairy tales of shammanistic treatments


I think this proves my point...

Maybe the point is that in any other business "customers" are listened to and it is considered a big problem if they go elsewhere.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Now you have just wiped out much of the field of psychology and medical anthropology. You are going to make those guys mad at you.

We (clinical psychology) aren't mad, because we have peer-reviewed empirically supported research on our side.

-t

 

[zenman]

We (clinical psychology) aren't mad, because we have peer-reviewed empirically supported research on our side.

-t

...and much of your research also applies to us...


But we do in hours what it takes years for you to do. Go figure.

"...the only difference between the modern and the traditional approach to the human psyche is that the former is a study and the latter is an experience. Western psychology is a discipline of observation and deduction, and traditional or primitive psychology is a discipline of exploration." Alberto Villoldo

Which might explain why so many psych guys have come over to the dark side to practice experiential psychology.

Interesting links for you..

http://www.ndsu.edu/ndsu/news/magazine/vol07_issue02/bridge_world.shtml

http://www.holisticseek.com/about_holistic_health/shamanism.htm

http://etd.rau.ac.za/theses/available/etd-05052004-113647/restricted/chap8links.pdf

www.naho.ca/english/pdf/annotated_bibliography.pdf

Want more???

 

[lawguil]

I love how you systematically provide excuses and attempt to eliminate anything science.

By the way, I'm fine with anecdotal evidence - but anecdotal findings are typically followed up by individuals who genuinely have an interest in helping people. They don't keep it there little secret hidden from western scientists to observe, study, or analyze.

e.g. - If I'm having results healing patients who have some type of incurable condition by feeding them ground up tennis balls, eventually, I say, hey, I’m on to something.


You remind of my son ....... I don't know where he comes up with those stories. Quite an imagination.

 

[njbmd]

What do you guys think about the new DrNP (DNP) and ND degrees. Theres only a few DrNP (doctor of nursing practice) programs available now (Columbia and Kentucky that I know of). ND programs are all around the country. From what I know, the DrNP degree is more clinical and has a strong curriculum and includes a residency. The ND is more about nursing theory and such and focuses on a NP specialty. I know MD's and DO's are probally in disagreement about these programs cause of "nurses" being referred to as doctor. Dentists are referred to as doctor and patients know the diff. between the two. Same with pods and opts. Nurses will be able to be fully independent with the DNP. I think for once, nurses will get the recognition they deserve with these degrees becoming more prevelant in the healthcare community b/c of their long training and "prestigous" lol, doctoral degree.

This is the originial post in this thread which is not woefully offtopic. Please get back on topic or start a new thread for discussion of your new interest/question.

 

[oldManDO2009]

damn we got caught

 

[zenman]

I love how you systematically provide excuses and attempt to eliminate anything science.

I'm not trying to eliminate science, however I value experience that makes you realize that science doesn't have all the answers.

By the way, I'm fine with anecdotal evidence - but anecdotal findings are typically followed up by individuals who genuinely have an interest in helping people. They don't keep it there little secret hidden from western scientists to observe, study, or analyze.

Who's hiding what??? I guess you didn't check out the links I posted, including the bibliography on traditional medicine which included articles and studies. I have a much bigger one, 61 pages on shamanism but I guess you won't look at it either.

You remind of my son ....... I don't know where he comes up with those stories. Quite an imagination.

Thanks for the compliment. Unfortunately, by the time he's in third grade he'll be a robot like all the other kids.

What do I think about DNP and NP programs? I think they should include more exposure to ancient healing methods. Otherwise I have no opinion.

 

[lawguil]

I'm not trying to eliminate science, however I value experience that makes you realize that science doesn't have all the answers.



Who's hiding what??? I guess you didn't check out the links I posted, including the bibliography on traditional medicine which included articles and studies. I have a much bigger one, 61 pages on shamanism but I guess you won't look at it either.




Thanks for the compliment. Unfortunately, by the time he's in third grade he'll be a robot like all the other kids.

What do I think about DNP and NP programs? I think they should include more exposure to ancient healing methods. Otherwise I have no opinion.

Combining the words Nurse and practitioner = oxymoron...then you add the word doctor = doctor nurse = even worse

Zenman, you're right, I havn't read your links yet, but I will.

Carry on! L.

 

[oldManDO2009]

zenman,

None of you links are evidence that shamanism is anything more than group hug and does not heal squat...

To include this in any DNP/NP/PA/MD/DO/RT/CNA training would be a waste of time because it will not reach any of the stated goals - treat the patient. Oh it may make the patient feel all warm and fuzzy inside but they will still be sick.

These proposed programs need rigorous training in EBM so that they can put together a decent differential that does not include soul retrieval or demon possession.


With a more standardized training program DNPs or NPs for that matter would be more prepared to work in Western based medicine (no chanting, scares the crap out of the patients) and work with physicians in TREATING patients will diseases.

I already can predict the onslaught of worthless links about how somebody shakes chicken bones and HEALS the patient but it has no place in our traditional Western medicine....

The current NP programs do not prepare nurse to work independently and I doubt the DNP program will be any better in providing the training necessary to work with a physician and be an effective practioner.

An interesting study would be to have a 4th year medical student and a DNP/NP sit down and write out the differential for abdominal pain and then judge who would be the more effective practioner. Any bets???

 

[zenman]

An interesting study would be to have a 4th year medical student and a DNP/NP sit down and write out the differential for abdominal pain and then judge who would be the more effective practioner. Any bets???

Well heck, both of them would just pull out their palm pilots and see what tests to order, what the dx is and what to do for it.

 

[oldManDO2009]

Well heck, both of them would just pull out their palm pilots and see what tests to order, what the dx is and what to do for it.

obviously no palms - nice try though,.....

 

[chimichanga]

Well heck, both of them would just pull out their palm pilots and see what tests to order, what the dx is and what to do for it.

good stuff, and so true...

and if zen keeps the fibros and seekers out of the ED, then it's:

Shaman 1, Trad medicine 0

 

[Tired]

and if zen keeps the fibros and seekers out of the ED, then it's:
Shaman 1, Trad medicine 0

Unfortunately his ilk has a habit of keeping the cancer patients and uncontrolled diabetics out of the ED as well.

A more accurate score would be:
Death 1, legitimate care 0

 

[chimichanga]

if you build it they will come...this i know...
with or without the zen...

your point is well taken, but i was truly being tongue in cheek...

can't you surgeons take the fibro out of the myalgia...you guys will cut anyone else...why not these loons?

 

[Tired]

if you build it they will come...this i know...
with or without the zen...

True enough.

can't you surgeons take the fibro out of the myalgia...you guys will cut anyone else...why not these loons?

Wouldn't suprise me if someone had tried. Hell, if we'll inject trigger points, why can't we just slice them out? heh heh

Of course, generally surgeons have to accept a diagnosis as real before they'll treat it.

Assessment & Plan: 40yo female with fibromyalgia. Turf to Psychiatry.

 

[zenman]

Assessment & Plan: 40yo female with fibromyalgia. Turf to Psychiatry.

Turf to the shaman. You guys have got to start accepting challenges

 

[Northerner]

Turf to the shaman. You guys have got to start accepting challenges

They're interested in medical challenges there, chief.

 

[oldManDO2009]

I am reviewing endocrinology right now and SOME pt with a diagnosis of fibromyalgia or depression might have an underlying endocrine imbalance such as adrenal insufficiency. This insufficiency may only manifest during periods of infection or stress and be easily misdiagnosed. The patient may also have a a psychiatric condition (histrionic v decreased endocrine function) and misinterpret the brief episode as a global condition. The symptoms such as myalgia, nausea, vomiting, dizziness and headaches are also symptoms associated with fibromyalgia.

So what is my point? These patients may show up in the ER with "pain & panic" along with the diagnosis of fibromyalgia and are not assessed for adrenal insufficiency. As a future EM doc I am interested in how prevalent adrenal insufficiency is and what populations may be affected. Are we missing this as a potential cause of myalgia.

This would require research and an expanded understanding of the endocrine system - both of these concepts may not be well addressed in the DNP program. Just another reason in my feeble little mind why nurses should work with/for physicians and stop thinking degree inflation makes them equals.

as for shammans - not a chance I would send a patient your way for the exact reasons outlined above.

Your differential would include impacted soul, chicken bone rattling deficiency, and physic energy deterioration

Your treatment would include soul retrieval, chanting and focusing energy

Your outcome would include a dead patient form adrenal failure and ensuing shock.

So it would be incredibly dangerous to send anything to a "shamman" that had a need for medical treatment. I wouldn't even send the psychiatric patients because I am not that mean and they deserve better (like medication)

So sorry shamman - I don't see a place for you in a traditional western medicine where goat skin chaps and glowy hands are left at the door

 

[zenman]

I am reviewing endocrinology right now and SOME pt with a diagnosis of fibromyalgia or depression might have an underlying endocrine imbalance such as adrenal insufficiency. This insufficiency may only manifest during periods of infection or stress and be easily misdiagnosed. The patient may also have a a psychiatric condition (histrionic v decreased endocrine function) and misinterpret the brief episode as a global condition. The symptoms such as myalgia, nausea, vomiting, dizziness and headaches are also symptoms associated with fibromyalgia.

So what is my point? These patients may show up in the ER with "pain & panic" along with the diagnosis of fibromyalgia and are not assessed for adrenal insufficiency. As a future EM doc I am interested in how prevalent adrenal insufficiency is and what populations may be affected. Are we missing this as a potential cause of myalgia.

Outstanding; that should give these patients some hope. And I think stress is probably the cause of most illness.

This would require research and an expanded understanding of the endocrine system - both of these concepts may not be well addressed in the DNP program. Just another reason in my feeble little mind why nurses and shamans should work with/for physicians and stop thinking degree inflation makes them equals.

as for shammans - not a chance I would send a patient your way for the exact reasons outlined above.

Your differential would include impacted soul, chicken bone rattling deficiency, and physic energy deterioration

Your treatment would include soul retrieval, chanting and focusing energy

Your outcome would include a dead patient form adrenal failure and ensuing shock.

So it would be incredibly dangerous to send anything to a "shamman" that had a need for medical treatment. I wouldn't even send the psychiatric patients because I am not that mean and they deserve better (like medication)

So sorry shamman - I don't see a place for you in a traditional western medicine where goat skin chaps and glowy hands are left at the door

Notice on my website: If you have a serious or chronic health problem, I prefer that you initially see a physician or psychotherapist. If you wish, I will explain to them my treatment modality and we can both help you reach the healing state you desire.

Wonder how many NPs are also shamans compared to physicians who are shamans?

 

[BlackSails]

Outstanding; that should give these patients some hope. And I think stress is probably the cause of most illness.

I think it is painfully obvious that necrotizing fascitis and the flu are manifestations of stress, duh.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

In a more general sense, one of the concerns I have with people in independent practice (including physicians, NPs, etc) is "The Island" effect. For as much as people need to be generalists in certain settings (especially rural practice), it may be problematic to do this in practice, considering a person can't be all things to all people. The limitations of training, alluded to above, is always a concern with "Island Practitioners", and in an ideal world everyone would collaborate to provide the best services. I've always been supportive of required collaboration, because sometimes people would be unwilling otherwise to go through the hassle.

I'm concerned that the bump in the academic degree will trigger more of a push for independent practice, even though the additional training is one that wouldn't really enhance a person's training and make independant practice more of an option. Physicians definitely receive a broad training throughout med school, so they can be adequately prepared for a range of services, though they obviously can't be all to everyone. I think nursing also receives a broad training, though the depth may vary.....which I think on the surface doesn't seem like a big deal, but in practice it could be problematic.

Ironically, with the advent of managed care, MORE multi-disciplinary practices popped up (good for collaboration in theory, bad in applied practice because of financial implications and limited time). Now we see multi-disciplinary practices struggling because of economics, which hurts collaboration, which hurts patient care.

Ugh....late to a meeting, I'll come back and finish later....

-t

 

[Tired]

Notice on my website: If you have a serious or chronic health problem, I prefer that you initially see a physician or psychotherapist. If you wish, I will explain to them my treatment modality and we can both help you reach the healing state you desire.

But not, of course, required.

Do you provide shamanistic treatment for cancer patients who are not pursuing allopathic treatments?

 

[zenman]

I think it is painfully obvious that necrotizing fascitis and the flu are manifestations of stress, duh.

Duh, why do some people get sick and others do not...genetic superiority?

 

[zenman]

But not, of course, required.

Do you provide shamanistic treatment for cancer patients who are not pursuing allopathic treatments?

Patients have the right to make their own decisions about their treatment, period. I'd sure try to persuade them to also try allopathic though.

 

[lawguil]

Patients have the right to make their own decisions about their treatment, period. I'd sure try to persuade them to also try allopathic though.

Wow! Absolutely no limits as to what you can do! It's also comforting to see that you are also a patient’s rights activist!

" Genetic superiority" - Zenman

How do you know this? You been readin some reductionist propaganda again? How short sighted of you to bring something scientific to the discussion.

Don't diss the shaman!

 

[oldManDO2009]

watch out shamman they are on too you!

 

[zenman]

Wow! Absolutely no limits as to what you can do! It's also comforting to see that you are also a patient's rights activist!

You better respect a patient's decision or the first three letters of your name will be after you. I bet you like to make your own decisions about what others do to your body, don't you? Are you guys over 20?

" Genetic superiority" - Zenman

How do you know this? You been readin some reductionist propaganda again? How short sighted of you to bring something scientific to the discussion.

Don't diss the shaman!

That's because I can see the complete picture.

 

[zenman]

I think it is painfully obvious that necrotizing fascitis and the flu are manifestations of stress, duh.

Increased stress=excess hormones (you know them right?) = elevated BP, stroke, etc. = diminished immunity = predisposition to... you guessed it...even infections. Class over for now.

 

[zenman]

Anyone know if the VA is still paying for Native healers for traditional ceremonies for Native Americans? They seemed to be very effective for PTSD in veterans.

Another reason DNP and NP schools need to not follow the medical model too closely.

 

[lawguil]

Thanks for the confirmation. Trust me; your diatribe isn't that complex! You think medicine plus shamman = "complete".

We all know your type Zenman - you're the person who sits in a course who smirks and rolls your eyes at what others are saying.... I bet you prefer to speak to people rather than with them inserting cynical and clever comments as needed.......you're sooooo smart. you don't like to feel as though you don't have control.......so on.........we all know your type and find the argument fun and stimulating......and you love the attention because you need it.......Keep up the good work - the readings you have provided are underwhelming, poorly written, and lack substance that could be considered by folks capable of critical thinking.

Continue your romance with the shaman.......it's your thing - there are plenty of capable victims in this world and predators like yourself will continue to prey on them......basic animal sciences!

Fabulous work my friend.......go ahead - have the last word

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

This thread is suppose to be a discussion about the degree programs, and *NOT* a personal pissing contest.

There has already been warnings in here about taking it way off topic AND making it personal vs. professional.

*Closing.......*

-t

ps. If anyone has any questions or concerns, please feel free to PM me.