Dropping out of grad program (w/ caveats)

[Mdude]

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Hi everyone,

I've read the other threads on this topic but I believe each situation is unique. I'm just going to throw all the details at you, b/c anybody who is going to take the time to give me his/her advice needs to konw the specifics...

I just got my B.A. in Econ & Political Science from a very good public university, with a 3.7 GPA. HOWEVER, I am enrolled in an accelerated master's of public policy program, and so I just finished the 1st of 2 years concurrently with my undergraduate senior year. My grades were decent (~3.5). I'm getting married in August. As of now, the plan was for me to finish the master's, but after much contemplation, discussion, etc (about 2 months dwelling on it) I'm about to take the leap and take all the pre-reqs at a local, weaker, public university..and drop out of the pub. policy program.

Now, I've seen some of the arguments, but my logic for not completing the pub policy program is as follows: first, I'm motivated and ambitious, so why be unhappy for a year, and spend bucketloads of $$, just for an extra degree? Second, the path to med-school is so long, and with me getting married and all, I have to get moving. Third, my GPA in the grad. program is good so it's not like I'm "running away from a bad GPA." Finally, it shouldn't look so indecisive because in the first place all it meant was that I was taking graduate courses my senior year, albeit at the same university (it's not like I took LSATs, applied, relocated, and then all of a sudden changed..)

Until reading the threads here it didn't even occur to me that switching now would be looked at unfavorably-- I mean, if you are doing poorly I see how that looks bad but if you are succeeding but aren't happy, can that really look so bad? What do you guys think about all this.

Finally, similar to another question, is taking Bio 1, Chem 1, Physics 1, all with labs, plus 15 hours of work, plus being a newlywed...a recipe for overload?

If anybody actually reads all this and responds I'll be amazed. And grateful..

 

[relentless11]

Your justification sounds reasonable, but the people that get you into med school isn't myself or anyone else here. It will depend on the adcoms to get you in, and as stated in many other threads, there will be thousands of others who have shown little or no confusion in what they want to do.

It is not impossible to get in if you bail out of any program, but may act against you too. Depends on the person(s) looking at your application. In this game, you want to minimize the things that they can use against you, and maximize on your strengths. I personally feel that your committment to WHATEVER you do is a strong indicator to what you plan on committing yourself to in the future (e.g., medicine).

Your grad grade is fine, but it is also pretty average among grad programs at least here in CA. A 3.5 is needed for most fellowships and grants. Regardless your grad GPA is weighted less anyway, so ultimately it will come down to your undergrad GPA, how you did in the pre-reqs, and the MCAT.

Personally, I finish what I start, even if it was a haphazard decision. Getting married isn't really a reason to be concerned. Some of my classmates in my PhD program are married, or are getting married. When they complete their PhD, they will then go off to vet school. One of the MD/PhD student's in my class was working on her PhD component, and was pregnant. She showed up to our last day of class despite being scheduled to give birth the following day (ok its not accurate). We all have personal obligations, and money problems. But I would be more impressed if a person finished what they started, and overcame personal, physical, and academic challenges.

 

[DesignEngineer]

Hi everyone,

I've read the other threads on this topic but I believe each situation is unique. I'm just going to throw all the details at you, b/c anybody who is going to take the time to give me his/her advice needs to konw the specifics...

I just got my B.A. in Econ & Political Science from a very good public university, with a 3.7 GPA. HOWEVER, I am enrolled in an accelerated master's of public policy program, and so I just finished the 1st of 2 years concurrently with my undergraduate senior year. My grades were decent (~3.5). I'm getting married in August. As of now, the plan was for me to finish the master's, but after much contemplation, discussion, etc (about 2 months dwelling on it) I'm about to take the leap and take all the pre-reqs at a local, weaker, public university..and drop out of the pub. policy program.

Now, I've seen some of the arguments, but my logic for not completing the pub policy program is as follows: first, I'm motivated and ambitious, so why be unhappy for a year, and spend bucketloads of $$, just for an extra degree? Second, the path to med-school is so long, and with me getting married and all, I have to get moving. Third, my GPA in the grad. program is good so it's not like I'm "running away from a bad GPA." Finally, it shouldn't look so indecisive because in the first place all it meant was that I was taking graduate courses my senior year, albeit at the same university (it's not like I took LSATs, applied, relocated, and then all of a sudden changed..)

Until reading the threads here it didn't even occur to me that switching now would be looked at unfavorably-- I mean, if you are doing poorly I see how that looks bad but if you are succeeding but aren't happy, can that really look so bad? What do you guys think about all this.

Finally, similar to another question, is taking Bio 1, Chem 1, Physics 1, all with labs, plus 15 hours of work, plus being a newlywed...a recipe for overload?

If anybody actually reads all this and responds I'll be amazed. And grateful..

I am pretty much on the same boat. I am holding off my master degree in electrical engineering at stanford for sometime while I am prepare for medical school. I will drop out of stanford if I do get into medical school. My GPA is like 3.7, so I am not running away from bad GPA either.

Stanford MSEE used to be my dream, then I started working and realized that there is no way I will do engineering for the rest of my life. I don't want to waste my time and money to pursue a degree that I will not use in the future.

 

[relentless11]

I am pretty much on the same boat. I am holding off my master degree in electrical engineering at stanford for sometime while I am prepare for medical school. I will drop out of stanford if I do get into medical school. My GPA is like 3.7, so I am not running away from bad GPA either.

Stanford MSEE used to be my dream, then I started working and realized that there is no way I will do engineering for the rest of my life. I don't want to waste my time and money to pursue a degree that I will not use in the future.

Proceed carefully with that. Most med schools may not even grant you interviews knowing that you are currently in a grad program, and may request a signed confirmation from your grad advisor that you will complete your degree before entering med school. The Phd student in my lab had this happen. UC's refused to grant interviews until there was written confirmation from our advisor that he will complete his degree in time. Since he had yet to take the qualifying exam, the advisor was not able to write the letter, and thus he did not get into any school, let alone get interviewed. Since most masters programs are 1-2 years long, I'd actually try to finish it. Its not like you're doing a doctorate program which can go longer than 4 years.

 

[DesignEngineer]

Proceed carefully with that. Most med schools may not even grant you interviews knowing that you are currently in a grad program, and may request a signed confirmation from your grad advisor that you will complete your degree before entering med school. The Phd student in my lab had this happen. UC's refused to grant interviews until there was written confirmation from our advisor that he will complete his degree in time. Since he had yet to take the qualifying exam, the advisor was not able to write the letter, and thus he did not get into any school, let alone get interviewed. Since most masters programs are 1-2 years long, I'd actually try to finish it. Its not like you're doing a doctorate program which can go longer than 4 years.

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. I never thought of that.

I think I am on a different situations than most people who are in their grad program. I am working FULL-TIME and going to school as a PART TIME student. This is actually a much cheaper way to go to stanford because 1) tuition is too expensive and 2) my company pays for good chunk of the tuition. If I sticked with this program, I will need about 4 years to get my MSEE. I think it will be understandable from adcom's point of view that I don't want to finish with my grad program.

But, anyway, I will email the adcom regarding this issues before I apply.

Again, THank you very much for your advice.

 

[DesignEngineer]

Hi,

Thanks for the advice. I never thought of that.

I think I am on a different situations than most people who are in their grad program. I am working FULL-TIME and going to school as a PART TIME student. This is actually a much cheaper way to go to stanford because 1) tuition is too expensive and 2) my company pays for good chunk of the tuition. If I sticked with this program, I will need about 4 years to get my MSEE. I think it will be understandable from adcom's point of view that I don't want to finish with my grad program.

Oh, there is another thing. I had a steller undergrad GPA (3.98 in engineering). My grad GPA will only drags it down (its sad how fierce the competition the stanford EE is). On top of that, I am working 55+ hours a week (typical life of a engineer in silicon valley), so, it will be quite hard for me to maintain a stellar GPA in the grad program, let alone finding time to volunteer and prepare for MCAT. That's why it will be beneficial for me to stop grad school now and focus my energy fully onto med school preparation.

But, anyway, I will email the adcom regarding this issues before I apply.


Again, THank you very much for your advice.

 

[njbmd]

Now, I've seen some of the arguments, but my logic for not completing the pub policy program is as follows: first, I'm motivated and ambitious, so why be unhappy for a year, and spend bucketloads of $$, just for an extra degree? Second, the path to med-school is so long, and with me getting married and all, I have to get moving. Third, my GPA in the grad. program is good so it's not like I'm "running away from a bad GPA." Finally, it shouldn't look so indecisive because in the first place all it meant was that I was taking graduate courses my senior year, albeit at the same university (it's not like I took LSATs, applied, relocated, and then all of a sudden changed..)

Until reading the threads here it didn't even occur to me that switching now would be looked at unfavorably-- I mean, if you are doing poorly I see how that looks bad but if you are succeeding but aren't happy, can that really look so bad? What do you guys think about all this.

Hi there,
Everyone who applies to medical school is "motivated" and "ambitious". If you do not have ambition and motivation, it is very difficult to follow through on such a long-term goal as medicine.

Quitting a graduate program does not imply that one is "doing poorly". It does imply that one fails to follow-though on their committments which is not a favorable characteristic for medicine and medical school. This is nothing to do with "happiness" and everything to do with completing what you started in the first place.

If you are so unhappy with public policy and the degree now, why did you spend this money and this time in the first place? Even if you finish the degree, you are going to have to answer that question anyway. I promise you, that medical school is not the solution to "finding yourself" . You are likely going to be a "hard sell" with a history of not following thought no matter what your GPA.

Much of the decision to admit or not admit an applicant to medical school is based on subjective data. There are just too many folks out there with excellent GPA/MCAT that have finished what they started.

njbmd 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

Hi there,
Everyone who applies to medical school is "motivated" and "ambitious". If you do not have ambition and motivation, it is very difficult to follow through on such a long-term goal as medicine.

Quitting a graduate program does not imply that one is "doing poorly". It does imply that one fails to follow-though on their committments which is not a favorable characteristic for medicine and medical school. This is nothing to do with "happiness" and everything to do with completing what you started in the first place.

If you are so unhappy with public policy and the degree now, why did you spend this money and this time in the first place? Even if you finish the degree, you are going to have to answer that question anyway. I promise you, that medical school is not the solution to "finding yourself" . You are likely going to be a "hard sell" with a history of not following thought no matter what your GPA.

Much of the decision to admit or not admit an applicant to medical school is based on subjective data. There are just too many folks out there with excellent GPA/MCAT that have finished what they started.

njbmd 🙂

This is all excellent advice.

OP, I agree that you should suck it up and finish the MS since you only have one year to go. You also need to start getting some clinical experience NOW, if you haven't already. That will help you figure out whether medicine really is for you. BTW, yes, I think your class schedule is too ambitious. It's more important for you to do the pre-reqs well than it is to do them quickly. Take the time to get all of your ducks in a row so that you will have a greater chance of being successful with your apps. That means finishing what you've started, acing the pre-reqs and MCAT, and setting up a substantial record of shadowing and volunteering experience.

 

[Andre04]

DesignEng, you win a cookie for the most school name-dropping in one thread. Congratulations!

 

[MiesVanDerMom]

Hi there,
Everyone who applies to medical school is "motivated" and "ambitious". If you do not have ambition and motivation, it is very difficult to follow through on such a long-term goal as medicine.

Quitting a graduate program does not imply that one is "doing poorly". It does imply that one fails to follow-though on their committments which is not a favorable characteristic for medicine and medical school. This is nothing to do with "happiness" and everything to do with completing what you started in the first place.

If you are so unhappy with public policy and the degree now, why did you spend this money and this time in the first place? Even if you finish the degree, you are going to have to answer that question anyway. I promise you, that medical school is not the solution to "finding yourself" . You are likely going to be a "hard sell" with a history of not following thought no matter what your GPA.

Much of the decision to admit or not admit an applicant to medical school is based on subjective data. There are just too many folks out there with excellent GPA/MCAT that have finished what they started.

njbmd 🙂

why does our society expect someone to know what they want from life at age 22?? graduate programs have HUGE dropout rates (i know for social sciences it's something like 60%) you know why? because people need a little time to figure themselves out. some people know what they want early on but an awful lot of us take a little longer and that's no crime. people around here act like you abandoned your baby in a dumpster if you leave a grad program early. the truth is, these programs know going into it a lot of people won't finish. it's not like... nevermind. i am not questioning the advice that this is how adcoms think. i'm sure it is. But I'm sick of people getting chastised on here and repeatedly told to "finish what they started" and "suck it up" Grad school is no place to be if you don't want to be there. You have to be highly motivated. And not having your whole life figured out at 22 or 23 is not a moral defect. Life is short, don't live it for adcoms.

 

[relentless11]

why does our society expect someone to know what they want from life at age 22?? graduate programs have HUGE dropout rates (i know for social sciences it's something like 60%) you know why? because people need a little time to figure themselves out. some people know what they want early on but an awful lot of us take a little longer and that's no crime. people around here act like you abandoned your baby in a dumpster if you leave a grad program early. the truth is, these programs know going into it a lot of people won't finish. it's not like... nevermind. i am not questioning the advice that this is how adcoms think. i'm sure it is. But I'm sick of people getting chastised on here and repeatedly told to "finish what they started" and "suck it up" Grad school is no place to be if you don't want to be there. You have to be highly motivated. And not having your whole life figured out at 22 or 23 is not a moral defect. Life is short, don't live it for adcoms.

The same way of thought can be applied to med school too. I don't think anyone is being chastised here. Yes, it is unreasonable to expect everyone to know what they want to do by age 22-23, but it doesn't neccessarily mean you will find out what you want in life after dropping out of grad school either. There are people who go through several professions before getting close to realizing what they want to do. Some may never find their desired profession, while others do.

Our director of admissions at UCDSOM along with several other schools adcoms have repeatedly said the same things others have said here....don't bail out of a grad program. Ultimately one has to do what makes you happy. Happiness = success, but there is a fine line between happiness, and working hard for happiness. Grad school is in fact SCHOOL, just like medical school. Being unhappy in one academic environment doesn't neccessarily mean that you will be happy by changing the academic environment to something else. Since there is no shortage on people applying to med school, adcoms tend to choose the safer bet. Although this doesn't happen all the time, it happens most of the time. This is why it is a common SDN, and adcom statement that one should finish what you started, especially when it is not something life threatening.

Nobody is saying that its a moral defect to not know what you want to do by a certain age, but adcoms want proof, not rheotoric. Proof of committment in life makes adcoms feel better that you will have committment in med school. Anyone can say that they will be dedicated to medicine, just like anyone can say they have done a lot of research. But people will only believe your exploits by seeing results. For my example about research, proof = publications, patents, etc. What would the proof for committment be?

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I really think that you took our replies out of context. Sure there are bad replies, but this thread is far from it in defense of those that have put in their 2 cents. 🙂

 

[njbmd]

why does our society expect someone to know what they want from life at age 22?? graduate programs have HUGE dropout rates (i know for social sciences it's something like 60%) you know why? because people need a little time to figure themselves out. some people know what they want early on but an awful lot of us take a little longer and that's no crime. people around here act like you abandoned your baby in a dumpster if you leave a grad program early. the truth is, these programs know going into it a lot of people won't finish. it's not like... nevermind. i am not questioning the advice that this is how adcoms think. i'm sure it is. But I'm sick of people getting chastised on here and repeatedly told to "finish what they started" and "suck it up" Grad school is no place to be if you don't want to be there. You have to be highly motivated. And not having your whole life figured out at 22 or 23 is not a moral defect. Life is short, don't live it for adcoms.

Hi there,
The huge problem with not finishing what you start comes when you are sitting in medical school two months into the first semester and decide that you don't want to continue because "it's too difficult' or "it's not what I thought it would be like" or "it's not making me happy". Dropping out at this point loses that seat for four years when someone with more committment might have been able to finish and have a career.

This is also the reason why applicants with marginal academics can have a difficult time convincing an admissions committee that they will be able to navigate the medical school curriculum. There are just too many applicants out there who have excellent academics to take a chance on someone that may not be able to finish.

Medicine is a long-term goal. Medical school is an all-or-none proposition in terms of filling a class and getting all of those folks through. The per student cost does not go away if a student does not finish and your tuition is not even close when it comes to covering those costs. That slot is lost for the entire four years. This is the major reason that the attrition rate among medical students is very, very low. It is also why medical schools seek students who "follow through" above those who do not.

This is another reason why graduate school is a very poor means of enhancing your application for medical school. If you do not want to undertake graduate study, do not enter graduate school because most medical schools will have no interest in your applicaiton if you do not finish.

This is not an area to perform a "life experiement" or "find yourself". It would be far cheaper to sail around the world and "find yourself" as opposed to not following through with the graduate degree program that you started. If you opt for the around the world sail, you would probably end up being a stronger candidate for admission to medical school anyway.

njbmd 🙂

P.S. Most people who sit on medical school admissions committees including myself have completed graduate degrees (Ph.D) and fully understand what it takes to get through graduate school. Not knowing what you want in life or changing your mind or "not having your whole life figured out" is not an excuse for not finishing your degree.

 

[QofQuimica]

why does our society expect someone to know what they want from life at age 22?? graduate programs have HUGE dropout rates (i know for social sciences it's something like 60%) you know why? because people need a little time to figure themselves out. some people know what they want early on but an awful lot of us take a little longer and that's no crime. people around here act like you abandoned your baby in a dumpster if you leave a grad program early. the truth is, these programs know going into it a lot of people won't finish. it's not like... nevermind. i am not questioning the advice that this is how adcoms think. i'm sure it is. But I'm sick of people getting chastised on here and repeatedly told to "finish what they started" and "suck it up" Grad school is no place to be if you don't want to be there. You have to be highly motivated. And not having your whole life figured out at 22 or 23 is not a moral defect. Life is short, don't live it for adcoms.

No one is "chastising you" or assuming that you "abandoned your baby in a dumpster." We are merely stating the fact that because some of you have made an ill-advised decision to drop out of grad school with no degree, now you will (probably) suffer negative consequences from it as far as medical school admission is concerned. That is the "common wisdom here" because those of us who are further along in the process have already learned these lessons the hard way. We are trying to help you future applicants avoid making these mistakes, not hold you back or make you feel bad.

As someone who also dropped out of school, and then went back (once for my PhD and now for my MD), I can tell you that dropping out of grad school with no degree is a red flag. I would strongly discourage anyone who wants to be admitted to med school from doing it. I understand that people change their minds about careers, and in that case, I'm all in favor of leaving with a MS instead of completing the entire PhD. But again, it's a BAD IDEA to leave grad school with NOTHING after hanging out there for two or three years to "find yourself." I didn't get a very hard time for dropping out because I did get that MS, and I also went back and completed my PhD later. I hope that you won't get a hard time for dropping out, miesvandermom, but I honestly think that you will probably get a lot of grief about it. If I'm wrong and you get admitted everywhere, feel free to "chastise" me next spring. I sincerely hope that you will be that successful with your apps, and if I am wrong, I will happily offer my public apology to you.

Again, to all of you who are contemplating dropping out of grad school so that you can apply to med school, please, get your MS. Don't leave with no degree, because that's a huge red flag to the adcoms. I don't know how to explain this concept any more clearly.

 

[Pemberley]

why does our society expect someone to know what they want from life at age 22?? graduate programs have HUGE dropout rates (i know for social sciences it's something like 60%) you know why? because people need a little time to figure themselves out. some people know what they want early on but an awful lot of us take a little longer and that's no crime. people around here act like you abandoned your baby in a dumpster if you leave a grad program early. the truth is, these programs know going into it a lot of people won't finish. it's not like... nevermind. i am not questioning the advice that this is how adcoms think. i'm sure it is. But I'm sick of people getting chastised on here and repeatedly told to "finish what they started" and "suck it up" Grad school is no place to be if you don't want to be there. You have to be highly motivated. And not having your whole life figured out at 22 or 23 is not a moral defect. Life is short, don't live it for adcoms.

I understand your frustration, but don't worry -- nobody here thinks you're a bad person for wanting to quit the degree program! They're just warning that adcomms could take a dim view, and whether they're right or wrong to do so is irrelevant, because their opinions become admissions decisions either way.

They're not looking for reasons to admit us. They have thousands of applicants who have good reasons to be admitted. They're looking for reasons NOT to admit us, and dropping out of a degree program could be used as a reason not to admit you, and you might have to go out of your way to avoid handing them a ready-made reason like that.

 

[lazyjayn]

Ok, this may sound like a totally stupid question- but, OP, is it possible to get a year off from the grad program? Have you even asked? because you could do the med school pre-reqs you don't have, and then use the "float" year for finishing up your masters- your advisor/ profs/ whoever might be willing to work with you on it... maybe.

j.

 

[Andromeda]

I quickly read through many replies, and forgive me if I am getting the wrong idea, or did not read carefully enough. Many of you discourage dropping a grad program. I would just like to offer an alternative perspective.

I am in a similar position: I am applying to medical schools and considering abandoning an MPH if accepted.

Through research and talking with admissions offices, some schools could care less if you finish your degree. Others do care.

I have been told by at least ten doctors to screw my MPH and go straight to med school. They tell me, "Do not wait. Medical school takes too long. Do it now." Some doctors say, "O cool. Only one more year? Heck, finish it."

If you are sure that what you want to do is be a physician, by all means, go for it. Research the schools you want to apply to, carefully. It would be prudent to meet with the dean of admissions of your choice schools and find out what kind of applicant they will view you as now, and given you do drop the program or stay in it.

As for your course schedule, you just have to be realistic. Will you really have time to study for those classes? What does the exam schedule look like? Don't compromise time for quality output!

Best of luck! 🙂

 

[relentless11]

Through research and talking with admissions offices, some schools could care less if you finish your degree. Others do care.

I have been told by at least ten doctors to screw my MPH and go straight to med school. They tell me, "Do not wait. Medical school takes too long. Do it now." Some doctors say, "O cool. Only one more year? Heck, finish it."

This is the keypoint though, did you talk to an adcom member? Or just the admissions office. Did you talk to physicians who quit a graduate program before applying, or physicians who did not pursue a grad degree. The ultimate deciding factor is the adcom member. Although admissions offices are very helpful, the person that decides on getting into med school is the collective decision of the x-amount of people sitting on the committee.

So lets put it this way. If dropping out of an academic program was not frowned upon, then perhaps the schools that you mention would be OK with dropping out of a bachelors program (e.g., never earning a BS/BA degree) once you have completed your premed prereqs. Sure some people do get in, but not often. Why? As a person flows through the application process, the applicant pool becomes smaller and more competative. Everyone begins to look the same. What will differentiate student A vs. student B would be their choices in their college life. Given that all things were equal, who would you pick? The student that quit a grad program after 6mo to 1 year to get into med school quickly, or a person who stuck it out for 1-2 years to earn a masters and gain 1-2 years worth of life experiences? Of course things are never that equal, but considering med school is so competative, I would favor having as few points of criticism as possible. Adcoms who have extra degrees such as MD/PhD's and MD/MS's may not be as understanding.

 

[Andromeda]

Hey, actually, I spoke with the dean of admissions from these schools. It really depends! That's the point I was trying to make. It would be worth investigating, though, if the school you wanted to go to didn't care. Right? Why waste time and money if you don't want to finish. Do what You want to do. If you want to finish, finish.

And I spoke with multiple doctors who have: gotten an MPH, left an MPH, gotten an MS, Pharmacy degrees, MS + Pharmacy degree, and those who went straight to med school. Most of them told me to quit the degree and just go to med school. I heard only one encourage me to finish.

I think finishing a master's program is totally different than finishing your bachelor's. You are right, some schools will care if you finish or not. Some don't.

Depending on your master's degree, you might also be able to finish it during med school through a dual-degree program.

-Andromeda

 

[relentless11]

Hey, actually, I spoke with the dean of admissions from these schools. It really depends! That's the point I was trying to make. It would be worth investigating, though, if the school you wanted to go to didn't care. Right? Why waste time and money if you don't want to finish. Do what You want to do. If you want to finish, finish.

Yes it would appear that it may be variable, can you provide us with the schools which you talked to for those that are wondering about it? On my end, the schools in CA tend to favor finishing your graduate degree. Our dean of admission (among others) was quite adament about that as stated above.

And I spoke with multiple doctors who have: gotten an MPH, left an MPH, gotten an MS, Pharmacy degrees, MS + Pharmacy degree, and those who went straight to med school. Most of them told me to quit the degree and just go to med school. I heard only one encourage me to finish.

Ya know, most of the docs that I talked to did MD/PhD's, so they may have a different view than those that do an MPH. Our MPH program here is quite straight forward, only requiring a year for the med students. So a years worth of grad level tuition at a state school isn't too bad. But at a private school, yes cost may be an issue. In terms of PhD, finishing your degree is important, or at least getting a masters. The take home message should be it may vary among schools, but for the most part you don't want risk it. It also varies among degree programs too. PhDs, SMPs, MS/MA, and MPH's, not to mention professional schools. Ultimately from my experience, quitting a grad program generates views similar to what njbmd said, which I think is also an adcom.

 

[Andromeda]

A:

Yes it would appear that it may be variable, can you provide us with the schools which you talked to for those that are wondering about it? On my end, the schools in CA tend to favor finishing your graduate degree. Our dean of admission (among others) was quite adament about that as stated above.

A. Schools in Michigan.

If you are considering dropping, perhaps talk to someone on the admissions committee, first, though, to get a personalized opinion. I am obvoiusly not a primary resource.

***If anyone has any other schools to add to this list, please share.*** 🙂

B

Ya know, most of the docs that I talked to did MD/PhD's, so they may have a different view than those that do an MPH....In terms of PhD, finishing your degree is important, or at least getting a masters. The take home message should be it may vary among schools, but for the most part you don't want risk it. It also varies among degree programs too. PhDs, SMPs, MS/MA, and MPH's, not to mention professional schools. Ultimately from my experience, quitting a grad program generates views similar to what njbmd said, which I think is also an adcom.

b. I can see how it would be very different for a more science-based program (and, say, if you were trying to raise your GPA and then you quit), and especially different for a PhD program.

Do you think it would hurt to apply to a few schools and if you don't get in, finish your program in the 2nd year, and then reapply?
I know of a few people who (to the same school in the same app cycle) have either been accepted, so they dropped their program, or have reapplied + finished their degree and then been accepted. Since the applicants had dealt with the same school, I don't think a rejection had anything to do with the school not wanting the applicant to drop their grad program. (MPH)

I just want to say that if what you really want to do is just go straight into medicine, don't be afraid to pursue it. There is a way and there are schools that will let you. Yes, be cautious; I agree, it could be risky.
You just have to do some good research and communicate. 👍

-Andromeda

ps-sorry if any of that was confusing. i am in a hurry.

 

[thoffen]

I dropped out of graduate school in computer science/engineering after one semester. I was very unhappy there and don't think I had the resolve to finish a masters at that time. Would dropping out so early be considered a positive in the sense that I didn't dwindle with my life at that time?

 

[relentless11]

b. I can see how it would be very different for a more science-based program (and, say, if you were trying to raise your GPA and then you quit), and especially different for a PhD program.

Do you think it would hurt to apply to a few schools and if you don't get in, finish your program in the 2nd year, and then reapply?
I know of a few people who (to the same school in the same app cycle) have either been accepted, so they dropped their program, or have reapplied + finished their degree and then been accepted. Since the applicants had dealt with the same school, I don't think a rejection had anything to do with the school not wanting the applicant to drop their grad program. (MPH)

Not sure about the above in terms of reapplying. On my end, I'm going to stick out my PhD since I should finish it in a total of 3 years anyway which should also give me time to boost my GPA. But next year I'm going to try to apply retroactively into our MSTP. They said that there's no rule against doing that, but its not particularly easy either😉. But it is probably many times easier to deal with the same school than somewhere else.

My PhD colleague applied a few years back and was not admitted because they were not convinced that he will finish his PhD on time. Conversely, according to one of our pre-med advisors, one student finished their PhD dissertation the first quarter of med school.....which she emphasized was not something fun or advisable😉.

Therefore I would think it is entirely possible to get in mid-program when applying to the same school. However I don't think it provides you with any advantages, and not sure if it generates any disadvantages either. Perhaps at the very least, it may generate some kind of stupid adminstrative problems in terms of paperwork and such. But in terms of getting, I'm not sure.

 

[DreamLover]

Hi everyone,

I've read the other threads on this topic but I believe each situation is unique. I'm just going to throw all the details at you, b/c anybody who is going to take the time to give me his/her advice needs to konw the specifics...

I just got my B.A. in Econ & Political Science from a very good public university, with a 3.7 GPA. HOWEVER, I am enrolled in an accelerated master's of public policy program, and so I just finished the 1st of 2 years concurrently with my undergraduate senior year. My grades were decent (~3.5). I'm getting married in August. As of now, the plan was for me to finish the master's, but after much contemplation, discussion, etc (about 2 months dwelling on it) I'm about to take the leap and take all the pre-reqs at a local, weaker, public university..and drop out of the pub. policy program.

Now, I've seen some of the arguments, but my logic for not completing the pub policy program is as follows: first, I'm motivated and ambitious, so why be unhappy for a year, and spend bucketloads of $$, just for an extra degree? Second, the path to med-school is so long, and with me getting married and all, I have to get moving. Third, my GPA in the grad. program is good so it's not like I'm "running away from a bad GPA." Finally, it shouldn't look so indecisive because in the first place all it meant was that I was taking graduate courses my senior year, albeit at the same university (it's not like I took LSATs, applied, relocated, and then all of a sudden changed..)

Until reading the threads here it didn't even occur to me that switching now would be looked at unfavorably-- I mean, if you are doing poorly I see how that looks bad but if you are succeeding but aren't happy, can that really look so bad? What do you guys think about all this.

Finally, similar to another question, is taking Bio 1, Chem 1, Physics 1, all with labs, plus 15 hours of work, plus being a newlywed...a recipe for overload?

If anybody actually reads all this and responds I'll be amazed. And grateful..

Well I'm not an expert on other schools but I know my school would not have let me matriculate into 1st year if I had not completed my graduate degree program. I know of someone in the year behind me who was supposed to start and had to defer because he couldn't defend his PhD in time and the school forced him to take another year. So being non-chalant about dropping out of that program, or any program, because you don't like the program or if you get into medschool may not be the right idea and you should really talk to the correct people and see how the adcoms at your prospective programs feel about the issue. Just my advice. Could save some heartache and peptic ulcer disease-

 

[QofQuimica]

Well I'm not an expert on other schools but I know my school would not have let me matriculate into 1st year if I had not completed my graduate degree program.

Likewise. People who don't go to grad school aren't required to have a PhD for medical school matriculation, but my school let me know in no uncertain terms that *I* wouldn't be starting without one. 🙂

 

[DreamLover]

Likewise. People who don't go to grad school aren't required to have a PhD for medical school matriculation, but my school let me know in no uncertain terms that *I* wouldn't be starting without one. 🙂

So true for many of us 😉

But you know what I meant...since I was already enrolled in a program when I applied...I was required to finish....there was no "dropping out if I got into med school" option...they made that clear...of course if you aren't in a graduate program when you apply they can't force you to finish one per se...but that doesn't mean they like to see applicants with unfinished grad degrees, and may even "encourage" someone to return and finish their previous graduate training before an acceptance may become reality...I've heard of that happening as well...which is why I say just be sure to check it out-better safe than sorry....and what can I say...I'm a safety girl 🙂

 

[QofQuimica]

So true for many of us 😉

But you know what I meant...since I was already enrolled in a program when I applied...I was required to finish....there was no "dropping out if I got into med school" option...they made that clear...of course if you aren't in a graduate program when you apply they can't force you to finish one per se...but that doesn't mean they like to see applicants with unfinished grad degrees, and may even "encourage" someone to return and finish their previous graduate training before an acceptance may become reality...I've heard of that happening as well...which is why I say just be sure to check it out-better safe than sorry....and what can I say...I'm a safety girl 🙂

No, I'm agreeing with you; I had the same experience that you did. I was a grad student while I applied, and I was told that if I didn't finish my PhD, I couldn't matriculate. Seriously.

 

[DreamLover]

No, I'm agreeing with you; I had the same experience that you did. I was a grad student while I applied, and I was told that if I didn't finish my PhD, I couldn't matriculate. Seriously.

Oh I know. I believe you. I really think lots of schools are like that and that's why people need to think very seriously about entering grad programs with hopes of entering med school!!

You guys need to be sure that you know what you're getting yourselves into. Be sure that you have the time frames correct in your minds and know how much time and money you are prepared and willing to part with because med schools don't view grad programs as "fill-ins until the start of 1st year". They will most likely require that they be completed as me and QofQuimica can most certainly attest, but it worked for me so I won't knock the grad school route. It wasn't easy. It wasn't fun. It took me 2 years to complete plus another glide year for apps. It was a LOT of work. I had to write a thesis and I HATE scientific writing. It was way Pricey $$$$$$ and to top it off, I really didn't want the degree in the first place and somedays it was just hard to be there....but it is all worth it now 🙂 Good luck peeps!

 

[Reckoning]

Sorry, bub. OP should just finish. It will suck. But it is money in the bank as far as a backup career, applying to med school (shows perseverance), and your own pride. I finished a masters in engineering that was more painful than a root canal. But it's done.

You are already going to have to explain why the change in plans. But you don't want to compound the question with quitting. Take the quitting out of the equation.

Everyone I interviewed last year was a great candidate. But some were better and more interesting than others. You don't want the Q-word on your app. Sorry, I definitely feel for you. But put your head down and get it done.

The only caveat I have is if you decide to quit school and do something REALLY extraordinary. Not the 1000hrs of clinical meatgrinder routine but something really interesting that speaks to your passion for medicine. Like starting a successful non-profit or become the first male pinup in Playboy. Failing that, back to the books.

Good luck!

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Proof that you can drop out without a degree and be admitted. 🙂

http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=2096

It also supports my hunch that schools are more suspicious of people who drop out of Ph.D. programs (you know, real grad school) versus people who drop out of professional school.

 

[DreamLover]

Proof that you can drop out without a degree and be admitted. 🙂

http://mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=2096

It also supports my hunch that schools are more suspicious of people who drop out of Ph.D. programs (you know, real grad school) versus people who drop out of professional school.

Well of course, there are always exceptions...but don't just rely upon those...be sure to check it out for yourself so you know the real expectations. That's all anyone on these message boards can really tell you to do...there's no magic recipe. The best advice I can give here that applies to every question asked is no matter what people say on here...go ask the program yourself. Buena suerte

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Well of course, there are always exceptions...but don't just rely upon those...be sure to check it out for yourself so you know the real expectations. That's all anyone on these message boards can really tell you to do...there's no magic recipe. The best advice I can give here that applies to every question asked is no matter what people say on here...go ask the program yourself. Buena suerte

I think what the mdapplicants profile above shows is that each application situation is unique and that no one can say for sure what a person should or should not do (well, aside from not robbing a bank or blowing off organic chemistry). The conventional wisdom here is that that -- conventional wisdom -- it might usually be right, but one shouldn't let it guide them in all situations. Dropping out of a grad program is not always the worst move a person can make, and it's not always lethal to an application. Sure, it might not be ideal, but lots of people get in without ideal applications.

Also, I still stand by my notion that a person can't compare the consequences of dropping out of a masters or ph.d. program with the consequences of dropping out of a professional program. The two degree programs are so different that there is no universal applicability. However, you frequently see such comparisons made on SDN.

 

[relentless11]

I think what the mdapplicants profile above shows is that each application situation is unique and that no one can say for sure what a person should or should not do (well, aside from not robbing a bank or blowing off organic chemistry). The conventional wisdom here is that that -- conventional wisdom -- it might usually be right, but one shouldn't let it guide them in all situations. Dropping out of a grad program is not always the worst move a person can make, and it's not always lethal to an application. Sure, it might not be ideal, but lots of people get in without ideal applications.

Also, I still stand by my notion that a person can't compare the consequences of dropping out of a masters or ph.d. program with the consequences of dropping out of a professional program. The two degree programs are so different that there is no universal applicability. However, you frequently see such comparisons made on SDN.

I can agree with this notion. Ultimately its better to be safe than sorry, but it must be balanced with sanity, and reason. To build upon your comment about PhD programs being different from professional programs. One has to remember that PhD programs and some masters programs pay for tuition. The school, principle investigators, and staff invest A LOT of resources into support these students. At least for my program, they allocate at least $32,000/yr for my salary, and tuition support.

To quit for whatever reason is wasteful. Ultimately we are held accountable for what we choose to get into. Whether it is a major, grad program, or professional program. You have to know what you are getting into before going for it. Hence, med school's requiring some kind of clinical experience prior to applying. This viewpoint can be applied to academics. First 2 years of med school consists of classes, just like PhD, and masters programs. Obviously I'm for finishing what you started. Mainly because thats who I am, and I don't like to be wasteful of the resources that have been made available to me. My PI is the same way, and at one time he was on the adcoms....so if one runs into such an adcom, then how would quitting from a grad program look? Just something to think about while considering that not all adcoms are like that🙂.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

relentless, one could argue that it's equally as wasteful to pursue a degree that you don't intend to use. What value does an unused graduate degree bring to the world? Certainly, one should think seriously before entering grad school, but my post is directed more toward people who are already in and have realized they aren't getting value out of it. Arguably, their "misguided" entry in graduate school already created some waste -- dropping out could be viewed as minimizing waste, rather than creating it. We all know you shouldn't start a grad program without planning to complete it, but life happens, people change ....

Your point about the funding for the Ph.D. is one huge, huge reason why I think it's less serious to drop out of professional school. Also, professors in a graduate program get direct benefits from their graduate students, so dropping out might harm them. One individual student in a professional degree program is of little value to the anyone, so if they left, the school would lose very little.

 

[beetlerum]

The school, principle investigators, and staff invest A LOT of resources into support these students. At least for my program, they allocate at least $32,000/yr for my salary, and tuition support.

To quit for whatever reason is wasteful.

Edit: Oops, realized I repeated a lot of the last post. Oh well. She said it more succinctly too!

This seems like very strange logic to me, especially for a non biomedically related program. The PhD program is not paying to prepare you to go to med school. So staying in the program when you know you're going to quit the field right after is just wasting their money. Quitting as soon as you know for sure that you're going to med school is better for the program.

This is not abstract, either. Spots are very limited in these funded program. You may actually be taking a spot that the program could give to someone else who can use the program for its intended purpose.

And the whole argument about accountability is silly, as though it's morally better to finish the program. Gimme a break. You realized you made a mistake. It doesn't benefit anyone for you to "do your time." I read that MDapplicants profile. Who could possibly expect that girl to do another 2.5 years of law school, at a 100k+ cost, just to be accountable for her choice to go? We're talking about a hypothetical where the person has already decided to switch careers and go to med school. It doesn't help anyone or society for you to waste resources preparing for a career you don't plan to follow. Your spot could go to someone who wants to be in the program.

Whether med schools see it that well . . . well, it really does seem to depend. But remember there's a distinction between some of the examples in this thread, where someone is forced to finish a PhD program, and med schools rejecting you (when they otherwise would have accepted you) because you dropped out of a program. Those are different. Dropping out, after all, is a way of finishing as far as freeing you up for med school.

 

[relentless11]

Edit: Oops, realized I repeated a lot of the last post. Oh well. She said it more succinctly too!

This seems like very strange logic to me, especially for a non biomedically related program. The PhD program is not paying to prepare you to go to med school. So staying in the program when you know you're going to quit the field right after is just wasting their money. Quitting as soon as you know for sure that you're going to med school is better for the program.

The question is, how do you know for sure that med school is the better program? Which goes back to knowing what you do in the first place. Does quitting make you a liability, or a better person for knowing what you don't like to do? We can sit here all day debating on what sounds better, but as you pointed out, its up to the adcoms, and from the various posts on SDN, and discussions with adcoms, it would point to being safer rather than to be sorry. From my perspective, in a biomedically related PhD program, its just another step in enhancing my my career goals. I agree that this may not apply to non-science programs, however like most PhD programs, the first 1 to 2 years is allocated for coursework. Thus one can complete their masters during that time frame. Therefore that is at least 2 semesters of work to receive a masters degree. Many of us, including myself on SDN have recommend going for a masters in lieu of discontinuing a PhD.

This is not abstract, either. Spots are very limited in these funded program. You may actually be taking a spot that the program could give to someone else who can use the program for its intended purpose.

Yes it is not abstract, but spots are not limited due to funding, but limited by principle investigators. PI's are responsible for funding, and most programs are pretty adament on admission deadlines. Therefore leaving early doesn't neccessarily allows another person to be admitted to fill in that slot. There are plenty of PI's out there, the bigger question is who you want to work with, how much money they have to offer, and if you're willing to do it...rather than if space is available.

And the whole argument about accountability is silly, as though it's morally better to finish the program. Gimme a break. You realized you made a mistake. It doesn't benefit anyone for you to "do your time." I read that MDapplicants profile. Who could possibly expect that girl to do another 2.5 years of law school, at a 100k+ cost, just to be accountable for her choice to go? We're talking about a hypothetical where the person has already decided to switch careers and go to med school. It doesn't help anyone or society for you to waste resources preparing for a career you don't plan to follow. Your spot could go to someone who wants to be in the program.

We're not talking "switching careers and go(ing) to med school". I was referring to exlawgrrl's comment on the difference between quitting a professional school vs. graduate school. As exlawgrrl and myself pointed out, professional school is quite different from graduate school due to the reasons where I stated the cost of PhD programs, and exlawgrrl's statement:

Your point about the funding for the Ph.D. is one huge, huge reason why I think it's less serious to drop out of professional school. Also, professors in a graduate program get direct benefits from their graduate students, so dropping out might harm them. One individual student in a professional degree program is of little value to the anyone, so if they left, the school would lose very little.

The notion of accountability may be silly to you, but maybe its my Army background talking but I don't quit, and I do my best to know what I'm getting into in the first place. There will always be surprises down the road, and moments that weren't ideal, but there will be days in med school that will also be like that. How one deals with challenges in the past can at times be a good indicator of how they deal with challenges in the future. Sure, there are people that get in who quit a grad/professional program, there are exceptions to everything, but as we have come to realize in this thread, it depends on many factors. Ultimately, to make med school adcoms feel better, one has to show committment in some form or another. That would be finishing a degree program, and/or showing committment to the healthcare profession.

 

[beetlerum]

The notion of accountability may be silly to you, but maybe its my Army background talking but I don't quit, and I do my best to know what I'm getting into in the first place. There will always be surprises down the road, and moments that weren't ideal, but there will be days in med school that will also be like that. How one deals with challenges in the past can at times be a good indicator of how they deal with challenges in the future.

Yes, but the point is that they've already "quit." They've decided to drop the current career for a different one. Investing years of additional effort won't change that. Also, please don't slip into the moralistic tone about how this is some kind of test of how you deal with challenges. Frankly, I want the doc who left law school the day he knew that he really wanted to be a doc, not the one who spent another 80k and 2 years just so he wouldn't seem like a quitter. That, to me, shows both a lack of commitment to medicine and even a lack of self respect.

Now, if your point is that that guy finishing his first semester should make damn sure he wants to switch before he does so, then I totally agree. He shouldn't leave law when he hits the first roadblock. But once you know, you shouldn't finish for the sake of finishing.

I agree, though, from the applicant's perspective that if you're only a year or two from a master, it is probably better strategically to get the masters. I just mean from the program's point of view. PIs aren't the only limit on spots in the class. Funding is more often a limiting factor than anything else--again, talking about all PhD programs, not just bioscience--and you being there may very well take a spot away from someone else. To me, it seems pretty selfish to take that spot and the funding just so you can say you weren't a quitter.

 

[zellantus]

Well, reading all these comments have gotten me all worked up now about my own situation. I dropped out of an MFA program (master of fine arts) in filmmaking, a completely different subject from medicine. I still had about 2.5 more years to finish the program, as I was only there for one quarter. Do you guys think that even in my situation, I'd probably should have stayed with the grad program? I didn't realize that adcoms might frown down on people dropping out of grad school (although I consider the film program I was in to be more professionally oriented than academically oriented). But I really didn't want to waste almost 3 more years of my life in addition to taking 2 years of post-bacc classes.

 

[Mdude]

to everyone who replied to my original post-

thank you all for your input. I've been insanely busy since I originally posted and only in the past week have I been able to read all the responses. I plan on contacting a few medical schools I might be interested in and explaining to them my specific situation. If it becomes clear to me that not finishing the degree will jeapordaize my chances, I will seriously consider finishing it.

I must say it's fun to see the healthy and vigorous debate that takes place on this forum on anything A-Z medical school related. Anyways, back to the books.