Drug dinners

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billypilgrim37

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  1. Attending Physician
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So, just got an email for a drug dinner directed specifically to us residents.

And I just want to know, am I entirely alone in finding this personally inappropriate? Let's be clear before this thread goes nuts, I don't think other people are bad for wanting to go. I accept that they believe all the reasons why they tell themselves it's okay, and I don't want to talk about that.

I want to know, are there others of you who also feel like drug dinners are entirely inappropriate?

Again, I don't care if you think they're fine. That's great. Enjoy your food! I'm not knocking you. I don't want this to devolve into one of THOSE threads.

I basically just want to know if I am SOOOOO on the fringe that I should really just get over it and hope they have a good vegetarian entree. Or is there at least enough of a sizable minority that I'm not entirely alone in my brown-bag lunch world of residency training?
 
Dicey. If it a speaker brought in to deliver the canned speach with company slides, then you leave with a bad taste in your mouth.

If it is an independent speaker, then it can be very valuable even if one company sponsors it.
 
I don't think there's a problem with it so long as you go in full well knowing that its a biased presentation, also read objective good journals, and don't do it too often. The pharm reps actually sometimes do bring in some useful data the journals don't bring in.

Its also a good idea that a residency program has an anti-pharm rep meeting once in awhile where the data brought in by pharm reps are actively scrutinized & criticized.

I've argued this before, but I actually think its sometimes a good thing to see pharm reps on a limited basis. To not see them at all doesn't keep several on top of the latest released medications--but also the bull some other doctors are falling for concerning these new medications & the latest advertising bull.
 
I have attended a good number of drug dinners, but I always tell the drug rep ahead of time that I will not be eating/drinking anything but water - and that I might have to leave early. Sometimes i tell them that I have an important social dinner to go to afterward. I fill up at a burger joint before going - so I'm not starving. (I once missed getting food before a drug dinner I really wanted to attend, and sitting there starving while they brought out bacon-wrapped filet mignon was torture worthy of Cheney.) If it's good info, it's good info. If not, I have no obligation to even stay through the presentation.
Most drug reps were really supportive of this. None ever gave me any hassle.

As a resident, I recommend reading up (even if only 15 min) on the topic before going, so that you are sure you have some basis to which you can compare the speaker's remarks. I'm getting far enough out from residency that I think I'd do this again before going to a Pharma-sponsored talk, just so I'm sure of basic facts before attending.
 
I love going to drug dinners....as a psychologist, they don't try to market anything to me and just feed me for free. (Hey, it's a perk of working at a psychiatric hospital).
 
I love going to drug dinners....as a psychologist, they don't try to market anything to me and just feed me for free. (Hey, it's a perk of working at a psychiatric hospital).
Yeah, screw the pharma-free bandwagon. I've worked hard for all of this, and I want the trips, gifts, and other perks that used to come with this package. 😀 Plus, I'm not buying my own pens!
 
I love going to drug dinners....as a psychologist, they don't try to market anything to me and just feed me for free. (Hey, it's a perk of working at a psychiatric hospital).

Sounds like a good reason to avoid prescribing privileges! :meanie:
 
I don't think there's a problem with it so long as you go in full well knowing that its a biased presentation

This sums it up very nicely for me. Another point for Dr Whopper.
 
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Agree with you on the pens--I can hardly find one anymore!

The new employee orientations are usually just a few doors down from my office. So I just swipe a few every couple of weeks on my way for my morning visit to the bathroom.

I had a Seroquel pen in med school that turned into something like Frodo's ring. I swear I have nightmares of taking it to Mordor and wrestling the little smiley face from the old Zoloft commercials.

Still, while y'all have certainly behaved yourselves, is there really nobody on the forum that feels the same way I do? If not even OPD can hang w/ me on this, I'm worried I should be banished to Cuba...
 
The new employee orientations are usually just a few doors down from my office. So I just swipe a few every couple of weeks on my way for my morning visit to the bathroom.

I had a Seroquel pen in med school that turned into something like Frodo's ring. I swear I have nightmares of taking it to Mordor and wrestling the little smiley face from the old Zoloft commercials.

Still, while y'all have certainly behaved yourselves, is there really nobody on the forum that feels the same way I do? If not even OPD can hang w/ me on this, I'm worried I should be banished to Cuba...

I think I'm hanging with you, Billy. I never went to many because it was an evening away from my family, much as I would have enjoyed a "free" upscale dinner. But I'm queasy about sales pitches in general (I'm the guy who spends 100 hours researching vehicles on the internet and walks onto the lot to say "sell me that one and shut up"), and the social justice maven in me says "this just ain't right, when my patients can barely afford these drugs and they're eating macaroni and cheese." And targeting residents specifically--well, you know that's manipulative. If the product is that good (ie something more than a repackaged reformulation of a current product that just coincidentally is going off-patent soon--yeah you know I'm talking about YOU Seroquel XR. And YOU, Invega. And YOU, "Pristiq"--new antidepressant therapy my *****!) they ought to be able to make the case for it without us needing to have contentedly full bellies and a tiramisu to take home to the wife (Guilty!).

I hear Havana is a nice cheap vacation destination...
 
Well, I'm a month away from being an actual resident, but I agree with you.

When I was doing an away elective during third year of med school I got dragged to a drug lunch with some residents. I had the slimiest feeling throughout the whole thing. We teased the one resident who organized the trip to the lunch about selling out. But honestly I really felt gross about it. Also I can say this--I remember that drug, Abilify, just a little better than some other drugs in the same category. Now maybe that is because people are talking about Abilify in general a little more, or maybe it is because of the lunch, I don't know.

I might attend a dinner or something like that just to see what goes on at those things--kind of like an anthropological expriment, but I would have to have some purpose, like writing an essay about it. Other than that, advertising is a well honed science. You can walk away and tell yourself you weren't convinced, but that's not how it works. I'm not saying I'd never go to one otherwise, but I'd probably feel like I did at that lunch.

On my medicine clerkship, an attending absolutely reamed a resident who tried to prescribe--it was lovenox I think, to replace maybe plavix or whatever cheaper thing the patient was on. The night before the resident had been at a lovenox dinner at a fancy French restaurant. This attending was screaming and swearing up and down at this resident in the hallway.
 
I think the best way is to go in knowing full well it is a sale pitch, but also there is good medicine that is reviewed.

If you're married and your wife works in the same area as you, it's a bonus as how the pharm company is picking up the tab on the "upscale dinner" out, plus there is time to see a movie.

Then again, I'm never ashamed to go to a dinner and believe that the pen river needs to flow again.
 
If you're married and your wife works in the same area as you, it's a bonus as how the pharm company is picking up the tab on the "upscale dinner" out, plus there is time to see a movie.

Are you saying that the drug companies pay for dinner for you and your wife? Doesn't this raise prices for drugs that get passed onto patients? Everything pharma spends ultimately gets paid for by patients in the US.
 
Don't care about the drugs.. dont care about the ads... don't even care about the food....i just want some pens. :laugh:
 
Are you saying that the drug companies pay for dinner for you and your wife? Doesn't this raise prices for drugs that get passed onto patients? Everything pharma spends ultimately gets paid for by patients in the US.
They spend the dollars regardless if you go or someone else goes. Think of it like a Time Share presentation. You know and they know that you are most likely there for the free stuff, but in the event they can get through....they get what they want.
 
They spend the dollars regardless if you go or someone else goes. Think of it like a Time Share presentation. You know and they know that you are most likely there for the free stuff, but in the event they can get through....they get what they want.

What do you mean? Grammatically I do not understand the meaning of "in the event they can get through....they get what they want."

I don't see how going to a drug dinner is the same as going to a time share presentation. Time Share is not pushing its costs off onto patients. A drug company may budget a certain amount for a dinner for one night, but that doesn't make it "ok" to go. That in no way changes the ethics of the situation from the doctor's point of view. (I'm not here to comment on the ethics, by the way. I'm not saying I would never go, either.) But what you're saying is just rationalization, unless I am unaware of how drug companies pay for things and there is some pot of money in the sky that pays for these dinners that does NOT come from patients.

Anyway, if fewer doctors brought brought their spouses then the drug companies would budget less for the event and ultimately patients would pay less for drugs. That would probably improve patient compliance with medication regiments which for all we know, might improve patient care better than any one new drug alone entering the market.

In the end how can you deny that patients end up shouldering these costs? It's patient money that went into that pool for paying for dinners, one way or another.
 
It's patient money that went into that pool for paying for dinners, one way or another.

On the flip side, so what? Patients shouldn't ever have to pay for anything, ever? (I get your point, just playing a little devil's advocate)
 
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What do you mean? Grammatically I do not understand the meaning of "in the event they can get through....they get what they want."

Every time a person that attended one of their events reaches for their med instead of their competitors, "they get what they want". It isn't an exact science to quantify, but they can track orders from Q to Q and see if prescribers who attended have ordered more or less of their medication.

I don't see how going to a drug dinner is the same as going to a time share presentation. Time Share is not pushing its costs off onto patients.

My analogy was the "we offer you something for free, and you sit through a presentation", and not a comment on how they spend their $'s.

...unless I am unaware of how drug companies pay for things and there is some pot of money in the sky that pays for these dinners that does NOT come from patients.

Pharma marketing budgets vary depending on the target market, # of prospects, gross/net goals, etc....but it comes down to someone setting a % of budget towards marketing. It further gets split into different "buckets"....print, tv, radio, etc, as well as Hard and Soft monies. The Soft monies (which are often indirect pushes) tend to go towards speakers, and while it isn't "some pot of money"....it is getting spent whether it is on a dinner you attend, a presentation at a convention, or other "soft" targets like Association sponsorships and charitable donations.

In the end how can you deny that patients end up shouldering these costs? It's patient money that went into that pool for paying for dinners, one way or another.

While marketing is a significant cost, the "soft" money is such a small % of overall cost it really is a blip on the radar to a pharma company. They don't care about the money, they care about the exposure. They are spending it regardless, as it is part of doing business.
 
On the flip side, so what? Patients shouldn't ever have to pay for anything, ever? (I get your point, just playing a little devil's advocate)

Well, "patients" is a broad category which includes most people's parents and themselves eventually, so presumably we should care about this and not go too crazy with the fois gras. And patients already are paying, aren't they? Through insurance premiums and deductibles, copays, drug costs, and taxes that go to pay for medicare, medicaid and the federal program that pays for residents' salaries. Uninsured people pay full price for their health care, plus any related collections' fees and credit card interest. Yeah a few people get charity care and they're probably heavily represented in mental health, but those people are not always able to work and pay for things anyway.

If you get a free dinner this way, it also seems to me like you're double dipping, because the patients (or taxpayers) have already paid for you and your spouse's dinner once, when they paid for your salary.

I can't get too puritanical though because when was the last time I followed my own principles to a T? I'll probably be that resident who runs out of money and has nowhere to go for food but drug dinners...
 
In my experience, spouses who were not also medical professionals weren't allowed at pharma-sponsored presentations. In terms of attendance - I went to plenty of drug dinners as a resident b/c I just couldn't pass up the chance to eat at some of the great restaurants in Boston that I could never, ever, ever afford on a resident's salary, but swore that I wouldn't go them once I was making money as an attending (a promise that I've kept thus far).
 
I may be the rare exception, but I'm a strict no dinners, no pens, and no free samples fellow (soon to be attending). I feel well trained enough to be able to critically read the literature and don't need to use dinners as an exercise in practicing this skill.
 
I think I'm hanging with you, Billy. I never went to many because it was an evening away from my family, much as I would have enjoyed a "free" upscale dinner. But I'm queasy about sales pitches in general (I'm the guy who spends 100 hours researching vehicles on the internet and walks onto the lot to say "sell me that one and shut up"), and the social justice maven in me says "this just ain't right, when my patients can barely afford these drugs and they're eating macaroni and cheese." And targeting residents specifically--well, you know that's manipulative. If the product is that good (ie something more than a repackaged reformulation of a current product that just coincidentally is going off-patent soon--yeah you know I'm talking about YOU Seroquel XR. And YOU, Invega. And YOU, "Pristiq"--new antidepressant therapy my *****!) they ought to be able to make the case for it without us needing to have contentedly full bellies and a tiramisu to take home to the wife (Guilty!).

I hear Havana is a nice cheap vacation destination...
Dang, I think we were separated at birth. I even look like you, except my tail is longer. 🙂
 
Personally, I have no problem with drug rep dinners. On the contrary, I go to as many as I can. Often times if a resident finds out about a good dinner in another department we will go down and get a free meal. I'm a resident who makes less than 50,000 a year and owes 200,000. Why should I deprive myself of a good steak, some socialization with my colleagues, and the chance that I'll even a learn something (biased or not)

People get themselves so worked about drug reps but seriously the majority of business is based on relationships between manufacturers and distributors(physicians in this case). I'm sure there are many of you who will say medicine is more than that but truth be told medicine is a business these days and I for one plan to take advantage of it and enjoy the few remaining perks left for physicians.


This man speaks the truth. Honestly did you guys know that we control the flow of products that these companies ... actually... make?!!? We are in business together get over yourselves. I mean unless you actually believe in the mind controlling powers drug reps have over you while they feed you prime rib. I for one never found myself prescribing abilify to ten clinic patients in a row after a drug dinner.
 
How many of you are in the good graces of your local reps to get free samples which you dole out by the bucket load....?

I certainly could not without the help of my reps. And if that means I go eat a nice dinner based on company's advertisement budget, then so be it.

My moral high horse has long left the burning building.
 
How many of you are in the good graces of your local reps to get free samples which you dole out by the bucket load....?

I certainly could not without the help of my reps. And if that means I go eat a nice dinner based on company's advertisement budget, then so be it.

My moral high horse has long left the burning building.

I hold my nose and sign for the samples--but over 2/3 of my scripts are for generics (and that will increase with venlafaxine xr's availability) so it's hardly "by the bucket load".
 
:laugh:

--

Drug reps were banned at my facility about a year ago....boo! Post-it Notes and Pens have become scarce!

Holy crap, the stuff I have picked up over the years (besides post-its and pens)...clipboards, kleenex, hand sanitizer, phone message notebooks, an Abilify scale, Lexapro clock, and my favorite, Invega microwave popcorn.
 
Holy crap, the stuff I have picked up over the years (besides post-its and pens)...clipboards, kleenex, hand sanitizer, phone message notebooks, an Abilify scale, Lexapro clock, and my favorite, Invega microwave popcorn.
I see Celexa and Lexapro clocks all over the place. There were a ton of Zyprexa pens and clipboards too....too bad it should have been pulled long ago.
 
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I love my VIOXX pen, ... it has museum quality. 😛
 
I don't mind dinners so much. I generally choose not to go, but I don't mind that they exist and don't judge those who choose to attend them.

What bothers me are the pharm reps sitting in the hallway where I work and stopping me when I am with a patient or on the way to the bathroom to tell me the exact same thing they stopped me on the way to the bathroom to tell me LAST week. They're there all the time. But again, I think that's more a function of working in a climate that allows that level of access.
 
Last night I signed my credit card bill at a Mexican restaurant with the Serzone pen that the waiter had in his pocket.

My liver didn't know whether to fear the food or fear the pen.
 
I onetime on a walk with my wife found a Marinol pen on the ground.

Marinol? Geez. Pharmaceutical grade THC in a pill, and there was a pharm pen advertising it?

I haven't been to one drug rep dinner since I graduated, though I do occasionally, on my own attempt to see the ones that visit the hospital I work at on occasion. In Ohio, pharm reps are now banned from giving anything for free other than pamplets in state hospitals. They aren't allowed on the units either--they are forced to wait in an office, and hope that attendings will stop by on their own--hardly any of them do. If we choose to see the rep, its on our own time. We still have just as much work we have to get done in the day.

I choose to see them on occasion because there sometimes is some good information they can give. I had no idea Risperdal Consta was now offered in the deltoid, and only found that out from the rep. Its not like reading the Green Journal monthly is going to reveal that. Nor do I have the time to read the package insert every single week hoping to find the update that happens only once every several months if not years.

However, by seeing them--now I got to deal with their advertising bull--and heck, I'm not given a free sandwich to help deal with that misery. If I'm eating lunch at a pharm presentation, I'm at least doing 2 things at once so my time isn't wasted. I gave some of them my cell phone numbers, and asked them to only call me if there's new data of clinical use. I get a call--and there's no new data, and the person only wants to sell the product even further.

From what I understand, one of the more prominent research attendings @ U. of Cincinnati was receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars in pharm money in a questionably unethical manner (forgot her name, she was published in the NY Times for doing so alongside a few others). That particular person from what I understand pretty much set the stage for the state ban.
 
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How many of you are in the good graces of your local reps to get free samples which you dole out by the bucket load....?

I certainly could not without the help of my reps. And if that means I go eat a nice dinner based on company's advertisement budget, then so be it.

My moral high horse has long left the burning building.

hmm i was wondering how my allegery doc can just give me handfuls of allegra samples. Pretty good deal for him, tasty steaks and happy patients.
 
Are you saying that the drug companies pay for dinner for you and your wife? Doesn't this raise prices for drugs that get passed onto patients? Everything pharma spends ultimately gets paid for by patients in the US.

If they spend less on the drug dinners then they will just spend more on advertisements in magazines/TV etc.

Personally I would rather trained MD's listening to the propaganda as oppossed to the general population.
 
If they spend less on the drug dinners then they will just spend more on advertisements in magazines/TV etc.

Personally I would rather trained MD's listening to the propaganda as oppossed to the general population.
Slippery slope.

This logic follows to the old days of free use of the timeshare in Hawaii and bigger freebies. Because, hey, if it means less direct-to-consumer advertising dollars...
 
Sorry, two relatively independent opinions that I crammed together in one incoherent thought. 😀

*tangential*
I frequently used a Zyprexa clipboard and endless Zyprexa pens...good, though the medication itself (per CATIE, etc) is more problematic compared to other typicals/atypicals because of the more rapid weight gain.....bad. IMHO the BB warning for the class actually minimized Zyprexa's contribution since it bunched them together, even though the research showed a (relative and IIRC a statistically significant) greater gain in weight for Zyprexa patients.
 
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Slippery slope.

This logic follows to the old days of free use of the timeshare in Hawaii and bigger freebies. Because, hey, if it means less direct-to-consumer advertising dollars...

You have a decent point but why do people always forget that slippery slope is infact a fallacy?

"In debate or rhetoric, a slippery slope (also the thin edge of the wedge or the camel's nose) is a classical informal fallacy. A slippery slope argument states that a relatively small first step inevitably leads to a chain of related events culminating in some significant impact, much like an object given a small push over the edge of a slope sliding all the way to the bottom.[1] The fallacious sense of "slippery slope" is often used synonymously with continuum fallacy, in that it ignores the possibility of middle ground and assumes a discrete transition from category A to category B."
 
THIS JUST IN...
It's true that the "slippery slope" argument is not proof of anything.

This isn't a formal debate team, and pointing out that one believes that A will likely or possibly lead to B is not always a fallacy. And sometimes A does inevitably lead to B. You're right, of course, that just because A might lead to B does not make it automatically true that it will lead to B, but you should remember that it might.

post hoc ergo proctor hoc is also a "fallacy" in debate and in logic class, except that sometimes it's true. we just can't assume that it's true without more evidence than that B came after A

Sometimes "slippery slope" just means "be careful. I worry that A might well lead to B," especially if it did in the past.
Just because something is a logical "fallacy" does not mean that it's never true - just that this argument is not a proof.

After all, just because I'm sitting on top of a steep hill in San Francisco that I've paved with Teflon and I've just sprayed Pam cooking spray all over my butt doesn't mean I will necessarily go careening down toward a busy intersection at breakneck speed.
But it's worth considering the consequences before proceeding.
(It's not worth considering why this whole image appeals to me)

And now back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress:
"Drug Company Giveaways: Better Us Than Them"
 
After all, just because I'm sitting on top of a steep hill in San Francisco that I've paved with Teflon and I've just sprayed Pam cooking spray all over my butt doesn't mean I will necessarily go careening down toward a busy intersection at breakneck speed.
But it's worth considering the consequences before proceeding.
(It's not worth considering why this whole image appeals to me)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpCVrzVr97M[/YOUTUBE]

One of the best scenes from any x-mas movie....ever. 😀
--

I prefer the idea of "erosion" (ref. our Constitution) v. the Slippery Slope.

Would people be more apt to attend a paid speaker who does research with a company's medication, but who's research isn't directly funded by them?
 
THIS JUST IN...
It's true that the "slippery slope" argument is not proof of anything.

This isn't a formal debate team, and pointing out that one believes that A will likely or possibly lead to B is not always a fallacy. And sometimes A does inevitably lead to B. You're right, of course, that just because A might lead to B does not make it automatically true that it will lead to B, but you should remember that it might.

post hoc ergo proctor hoc is also a "fallacy" in debate and in logic class, except that sometimes it's true. we just can't assume that it's true without more evidence than that B came after A

Sometimes "slippery slope" just means "be careful. I worry that A might well lead to B," especially if it did in the past.
Just because something is a logical "fallacy" does not mean that it's never true - just that this argument is not a proof.

After all, just because I'm sitting on top of a steep hill in San Francisco that I've paved with Teflon and I've just sprayed Pam cooking spray all over my butt doesn't mean I will necessarily go careening down toward a busy intersection at breakneck speed.
But it's worth considering the consequences before proceeding.
(It's not worth considering why this whole image appeals to me)

And now back to our regularly scheduled program, already in progress:
"Drug Company Giveaways: Better Us Than Them"


🙂 lol that is a fun image.

I think you slightly mistook the purpose of that post, I started out saying

"You make a decent point" so in regard to the discussion at hand I pretty much agree that he is right.


The rest of the post was more of a side tangent about the ironic fact that a lot of times people will say something like "that is a slippery slope, by this logic .... etc. etc." I just think its ironic that people make a logical arguement, but then label it with a term that would identify the arguement as being invalid. (Ie. i thought he had a good arguement, just thought its funny to label it with a term that actually weakens it.)

And i've never done any debate or know anything about formal logic, so I have no idea what the other things you were talking about are, but ill take your word for it.


sorry for hijacking the thread, ill try to get it back on track

For people who think drug dinners aren't ethical, what level of contact between drug reps and health professionals do you feel is ethical?
 
Hey, no offense taken on the "slippery slope" thing. I learned something. Much appreciated.
For people who think drug dinners aren't ethical, what level of contact between drug reps and health professionals do you feel is ethical?
How about any that is mutually requested and doesn't involve the transfer of goods, money, or services?

It's illegal for cops to take a free meals too...
 
It's illegal for cops to take a free meals too...

But its not for politicians to do so.

If you ask me, if you want to cause some positive actions--politicians need to live by the same restrictions they are putting into law that they are putting onto us.

And I'm not asking for much. I'm talking a politician getting a 6 figure lobby gift vs us getting a pen & a dinner while actually getting a lecture that may help us as clinicians? Geez!

But even more than that go after the docs that have thousands of $$ if not more from pharm companies, then did something that was in violation of contract if not the law such as not tell their employers of their gifts from pharm companies.

IMHO that'll fix things 10x more than targeting a doctor from getting a few pens & a DSM with a sticker on it that says "compliments of Astra Zeneca" that most are going to tear off anyway.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/27/health/psychology/27doctors.html

Vermont officials disclosed Tuesday that drug company payments to psychiatrists in the state more than doubled last year, to an average of $45,692 each from $20,835 in 2005.

I can't see how a doctor could receive that and still practice ethically. We are debating pens & dinners here people--all of which are going to amount to less than $1000/year for most of us, unless you really go after these dinners with a vengeance which will probably run no more than $2000/year.

For a doctor to get on average $45K/year, what were these doctors getting? Flights to the Bunny ranch and 5 hours with Air Force Amy multiple times a year?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Force_Amy
What everyone's arguing here is peanuts. Being that the 45K is an average amount for the entire state of VT, I'm wondering how many got in the 6 figure range.

You can all argue about the petty misdemeanors like tresspassing. I say go after the Felonies such as Aggravated Assault, Manslaughter or Murder.
 
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You can all argue about the petty misdemeanors like tresspassing. I say go after the Felonies such as Aggravated Assault, Manslaughter or Murder.
Interesting. This sounds exactly like the issue of corruption in law enforcement.

In the 1980's when departments really started cracking down on the free meals and whatnot, this was exactly the reaction: "Why pick on me and my free lunch when you've got guys taking graft from drug dealers? I'm not going to give preferential treatment to Izzy's Steakhouse just because I eat there for free..."

I think the idea is that the problem is that saying, "taking free stuff from Pharm is okay, as long as it's not worth more than ____" gets on ethically shaky ground (I've learned that this is not a slippery slope, which would have been my go-to).

I think we're going to see the trend continue to just not take anything from Pharm companies. Playing around with all the grey area is too much hair splitting. Is a free pen ethical? A free meal? A free weekend at a timeshare? A free dive vacation in the Caymans? A free car? Cash?
 
So if they invite you to speak in the next state over, regarding your experience with drug X, and they'll pay you 2K for the weekend? How serious is that?

How about if they will pay you 5K to use their slides and their canned speech?

Do that 10 times a year because you really liked that extra cash, and you have now thoroughly prostituted yourself to Big Pharma.
 
I think the idea is that the problem is that saying, "taking free stuff from Pharm is okay, as long as it's not worth more than ____" gets on ethically shaky ground (I've learned that this is not a slippery slope, which would have been my go-to).

Disagree with you.

Pay 100 people $200 vs $200,000, you will most definitely get more people bribed & having biased opinions on $200,000.

IMHO, and I do think there are people who in good faith would disagree with me, there are actually some merits to attending a pharm lecture with a dinner or lunch. I'm a busy man, and having a $10 lunch provided to me while listening to a lecture that may actually contain clinically useful data that's not usually presented in a journal (e.g. Risperdal Consta now being available in a deltoid injection) can have positive benefits for patients. Like I said-show me where that was printed in the green journal. In fact, show me where several of the advances of several of the meds are printed because reading only journals is not going to keep you up to date on medications. Journals, while being a great source of information is not an end all be all source. They are more often a random hodge podge of some recent studies, several of which have no clinical relevance, and not an up to date bulletin on the order of Internal Medicine's Up to Date program (which I think is great program and wish Psychiatry had a similar program. I saw one program advertised as being the psychiatric equivalent to Up To Date--and found it nowhere near as good). Textbooks are a great source of data, but are updated only once every several years. Conventions--good source of data--some docs never go to them. Docs that do can only do so once every several months. Seroquel XR came out--was that announced in every journal? No. Several made no announcement on it, while mentioning a clinical case where an antibiotic caused psychosis--which was on the order of a freak occurrence that most clinicians would never face. Does an XR Seroquel make a difference? Yes. It can add convenience to medication regimens, especially for people who are noncompliant and are viewed daily by an ACT team. Now that ACT Team person only has to visit the person once a day instead of 2 or 3 times a day. I wouldn't have known this otherwise in such as quick manner. I would've eventually found out through the non-pharm sources in perhaps 6-12 months. It also saves me time because I can do 2 things at once.

I'm also working about 42-45 hrs a week, but only getting paid for 40. Why? Because the way the state system is run, I feel I cannot provide the quality of care to my patients that I feel needs to be given in 40 hrs. I end up working a few extra hours a week out of my own pocket. Having a pharm lunch could've shaved off about 45 minutes-which could've lead to me giving that time to patient care.

As I mentioned in an above post, I am choosing to see pharm reps on an occassional basis and getting no free gifts (nothing--no pens, no notepads, no books, no free food--nothing) from them because they sometimes do offer data that is clinically relevant and not typically in journals. If I could've gotten a $10 lunch out of it, I could've shaved off lunch time and devoted that time to patients which actually is cost effective to the healthcare system given that my pay is much more than $10/hr.

Of course I'd really rather have an up to date bulletin just give me the new advancements on meds instead of me having to listen to a biased rep, but I don't know of any source that does so without me having to read through pretty much every journal and package insert which is exhaustive & not time effective. One could find out what's on TV by flipping through every channel & spending about 3 minutes a channel, or you can read TV Guide for about 30 seconds. No one has yet devised a TV Guide like medication data update system for psychiatrists.

$10-15 (and let's be fair--x12--if its done once a month) cannot compare to being given $45K a year in gifts. The pens, notepads etc..those I don't care if they are banned or not. I do though think that if pharm reps can give new data or bring in good lecturers (which they do from time to time) and do it during a lunch--it greatly saves time for clinicians. Want to ban that? Fine with me-if you create an alternate source that would report this in a quick & timely manner.

IMHO given the benefit/cost ratio--some limited gifts still create benefit without a risk of a doctor whoring themselves. I'm not going to do so, nor can I think of almost any doctor that'd ***** him/herself for $10/month. I can think of plenty that'd do it for 45K/year.

Why pick on me and my free lunch when you've got guys taking graft from drug dealers?
The argument I'm presenting is going for the big problem first, then see if the problem improves. If there were still widespread problems after the guys getting 50K+ were dealt with, then start going for the smaller offenders.

Its common sense and it does follow a medical model, among several law enforcement models. You treat the most serious problems first. You don't worry about a guy's metabolic status who's 5 lbs overweight if the guy can't breathe. You attack the breathing problem first.
 
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I don't go to too many drug company dinners, maybe once every couple of months. When I do go, it's mainly to socialize/network with other docs. I don't feel guilty about taking a free meal- a (at best) $50 dollar meal undervalues my time.

I have drug companies bring lunch to myself and the office staff about once a month. At these lunches I and my staff learn a lot about administrative matters- voucher programs for the drugs, which tier the drug is on on various insurance plans, what the various insurance companies require to preauthorize a drug, etc.
 
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