Dual degree programs?

[goingwiththeflow]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I just finished my first year of vet school and my school offers dual DVM/PhD and DVM/MPH programs. A MPH and PhD are both certifications I’ve considered acquiring on separate occasions because I’m thinking about working in public health as a vet, but I also want the option of working in research with a PhD. I’m really struggling with these choices and don’t know what to do. If I could just say screw it and get the PhD now with the DVM and go back for my MPH after, I would. But that doesn’t sound ideal to me... Does anyone have any advice on how to decide which program to go with or at least some insight to the pros and cons of either of those extra degrees? As of right now, I don’t really want to work in a clinical setting, if that helps to know.

 

[supershorty]

PMing you - can't say much about dual MPH programs (my school has one, but public health has never been my interest so I don't know much about the program), but I'm a 4th year in a dual DVM/PhD program.

 

[Lupin21]

I just finished my first year of vet school and my school offers dual DVM/PhD and DVM/MPH programs. A MPH and PhD are both certifications I’ve considered acquiring on separate occasions because I’m thinking about working in public health as a vet, but I also want the option of working in research with a PhD. I’m really struggling with these choices and don’t know what to do. If I could just say screw it and get the PhD now with the DVM and go back for my MPH after, I would. But that doesn’t sound ideal to me... Does anyone have any advice on how to decide which program to go with or at least some insight to the pros and cons of either of those extra degrees? As of right now, I don’t really want to work in a clinical setting, if that helps to know.

You can start as PhD then if it is too much or you find you are not finding a good path with it, you can change it to MS. Or at least, that is what is typically offered. You should talk with your school to see which one fits your needs best if you are wanting to do dual. There are many threads though talking about the pros and cons of doing it that way, so you should definitely search those and read through them to also gain some perspective.

 

[chickenlittle]

I would caution you that most DVM/MPHs that I know are NOT working in public health. In fact, I graduated with two of them (2006, which admittedly was a while ago!) and both now work in industry doing non-public-health things. They seem happy with the way that their careers have turned out, but both were initially frustrated by the lack of DVM/MPH jobs.

 

[that redhead]

I just finished my first year of vet school and my school offers dual DVM/PhD and DVM/MPH programs. A MPH and PhD are both certifications I’ve considered acquiring on separate occasions because I’m thinking about working in public health as a vet, but I also want the option of working in research with a PhD. I’m really struggling with these choices and don’t know what to do. If I could just say screw it and get the PhD now with the DVM and go back for my MPH after, I would. But that doesn’t sound ideal to me... Does anyone have any advice on how to decide which program to go with or at least some insight to the pros and cons of either of those extra degrees? As of right now, I don’t really want to work in a clinical setting, if that helps to know.

What do you mean when you say “not a clinical setting”? Do you mean strictly research, or do you mean behind a desk still doing vet work? If the former, probably just go for the PhD without the DVM? If the latter, it depends what kind of work you’re angling for. You can work through the government (FSIS, FDA, etc) without a PhD but research would be a lot harder to get into without the PhD (this is something @WhtsThFrequency could shed more light on.) The vets I know in “public health” (FDA) are both regular DVMs but they don’t do research.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yup, depends on what kind of research you want to do and it what setting. Research related to veterinary species only and working at a vet school or a veterinary government service? You might be able to get by without one (maybe less so in academia where PhDs are gold). Any type of biomedical research with human applications at a major research institute? You're most likely going to get held back by not having a PhD.

YMMV, but I'm personally not a fan of combined programs (and neither is my SO, who is currently in one - and is a nontrad who has years of experience doing research outside of vet med so he knows the research "industry"). The entire deal is a bit too long to hash out here, but if you search the forums there has been a decent amount of discussion on it.

 

[Lupin21]

Yup, depends on what kind of research you want to do and it what setting. Research related to veterinary species only and working at a vet school or a veterinary government service? You might be able to get by without one (maybe less so in academia where PhDs are gold). Any type of biomedical research with human applications at a major research institute? You're most likely going to get held back by not having a PhD.

YMMV, but I'm personally not a fan of combined programs (and neither is my SO, who is currently in one - and is a nontrad who has years of experience doing research outside of vet med so he knows the research "industry"). The entire deal is a bit too long to hash out here, but if you search the forums there has been a decent amount of discussion on it.

I will always add a nay to dual programs.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yeah...I've heard far more disappointing stories than good ones. It likely varies by institution, but

Combining a a tough structured clinical degree with the toughest unstructured and unpredictable research degree (as all research degrees are) just never seemed like a good idea to me. Too many students having large breaks in their clinical training, too many students having to stay years after their DVM is completed, too many students with low publication numbers, too many mentors who don't understand the demands of the veterinary side of things, etc.

 

[supershorty]

I'm not the biggest supporter of them either at this point. Especially when you do the PhD in the middle. It really stresses me out thinking about how I have to stay on top of all I learned in my DVM curriculum for an unspecified number of years to then roll right back into clinics.

 

[WildM]

I am applying to a DVM/Phd program (Cornell) and anyone here who got accepted can you put anything and everything that helped you get in??

 

[that redhead]

I am applying to a DVM/Phd program (Cornell) and anyone here who got accepted can you put anything and everything that helped you get in??

You may want to contact the school and ask if any of their current dual degree students would be willing to exchange emails and provide their feedback on the program.

 

[flameshock]

You may want to contact the school and ask if any of their current dual degree students would be willing to exchange emails and provide their feedback on the program.

I second this. Also recommend you ask for the contact information for RECENT grads of the dual program as they will have better perspective on the process from start to (hopefully) job-land.

 

[WildM]

You may want to contact the school and ask if any of their current dual degree students would be willing to exchange emails and provide their feedback on the program.

This is such great advice, I hadn't thought of that thank you!

 

[WildM]

I second this. Also recommend you ask for the contact information for RECENT grads of the dual program as they will have better perspective on the process from start to (hopefully) job-land.

Thank you!!

 

[WildM]

Applying to Vet school has made me reevaluate all the decisions I've ever made in my life...I'm having writer's block, imposter syndrome and panic attacks in the middle of the night... but its for the animals !!! lol

 

[WildM]

To everyone here, how was your GRE study schedule?? And how many times did you take it?

 

[supershorty]

Applying to Vet school has made me reevaluate all the decisions I've ever made in my life...I'm having writer's block, imposter syndrome and panic attacks in the middle of the night... but its for the animals !!! lol

I hope you intended this as a joke, but if the application process is causing you this much distress, I'd really think long and hard about seeking counseling and learning some coping strategies before ever starting school. Vet school is a bear, and dual programs maybe even more so because of their requirements (at least at my school, we have a GPA requirement that, while do-able, definitely added a level of stress). If you struggle with mental health, it's not going to be better when you get into school/start a DVM/start a PhD. It very well could get worse. So it's really important that you figure out some strategies, preferably with a professional, for how to handle the stress now if this is really something you want to go after.

You need to study in the way that works best for you. You could poll everyone on this site and probably get 40 different answers for how people studied either in school or in preparation for exams (GRE, NAVLE, etc.).

I second (third?) the recommendation to try to get in touch with current students and recent graduates to discuss the program you're interested in.

 

[WildM]

I really feel like this whole COVID-19 tragedy gave me a new purpose to do a Ph.D./DVM degree. Anyone else feel like this??

 

[cheathac]

As one who is wanting to do a PhD/residency after veterinary school I feel like the sole reason for going into a dual program shouldn't be because of this pandemic. If anything it shows the world how important research is and it makes me even more proud of going into this field. But I thought long and hard and have had several experiences before deciding this is what I wanted to do. It's not easy by any means and science is..... well science. It's not all rosey and works out all the time. That's what makes it fun though to me is the problem solving. Just make sure you talk to lots of people and get experience actually doing research and working in a lab with graduate students, etc before jumping into a PhD. 🙂

 

[Lupin21]

Yup. PhD and beyond is not glorious and even the problem solving is limited by stopping to get funding more times that not. Do not glorify the day to day for the few major discoveries that make it seem rockstar. I was pursuing PhD for 2 years and though I am thankful it fits for some, it will not for most including myself. Feel free to PM if someone wants my thoughts and experiences. I almost think we need a Vet sub forum for wannabe, in progress, this is not for me/successfully completed and on the other side DVM based Researchers.

 

[supershorty]

Yup. PhD and beyond is not glorious and even the problem solving is limited by stopping to get funding more times that not. Do not glorify the day to day for the few major discoveries that make it seem rockstar. I was pursuing PhD for 2 years and though I am thankful it fits for some, it will not for most including myself. Feel free to PM if someone wants my thoughts and experiences. I almost think we need a Vet sub forum for wannabe, in progress, this is not for me/successfully completed and on the other side DVM based Researchers.

And we can put a sticky at the top saying "Talk to dual degree students (who have at least started their PhDs) at the program you're interested in before deciding whether it's the right path for you!!"

Pre-PhD-start me was an idiot. Intra-PhD me is also an idiot, but at least I'm aware of it now
My program is fine, but pre-PhD-supershorty had absolutely no concept of what the PhD would be like.

 

[cml156]

I did not think a DVM/PhD was something I wanted to pursue until recently. I did a lot of research during undergrad and have been on two manuscripts and wrote an undergrad thesis to be published next week. I will start vet school this fall at Ross and will transfer out after a year into another institution. Do you think it would be possible or does anyone know anyone who has applied to start a PhD after the start of vet school. I know it obviously lasts longer than the DVM curriculum but wasn't sure if I could start a PhD in the middle of the vet curriculum or if it makes a difference.
Thanks

 

[supershorty]

I did not think a DVM/PhD was something I wanted to pursue until recently. I did a lot of research during undergrad and have been on two manuscripts and wrote an undergrad thesis to be published next week. I will start vet school this fall at Ross and will transfer out after a year into another institution. Do you think it would be possible or does anyone know anyone who has applied to start a PhD after the start of vet school. I know it obviously lasts longer than the DVM curriculum but wasn't sure if I could start a PhD in the middle of the vet curriculum or if it makes a difference.
Thanks

It will depend on your institution. I wouldn't bank on being able to transfer - it happens, but I wouldn't consider it a guarantee. At my program, yes, you can apply for the dual program after completion of your first DVM year and either start after finishing the didactic curriculum (so after Y3 fall) or at the end of the DVM. I don't know how many programs have the option of doing it consecutively. Most, when I was applying, did the degrees concurrently instead.

As someone doing the PhD in the middle of the DVM, I would strongly recommend doing the degrees consecutively and not the way I'm doing it.

 

[WildM]

As one who is wanting to do a Ph.D./residency after veterinary school I feel like the sole reason for going into a dual program shouldn't be because of this pandemic. If anything it shows the world how important research is and it makes me even more proud of going into this field. But I thought long and hard and have had several experiences before deciding this is what I wanted to do. It's not easy by any means and science is..... well science. It's not all rosey and works out all the time. That's what makes it fun though to me is problem-solving. Just make sure you talk to lots of people and get experience actually doing research and working in a lab with graduate students, etc before jumping into a Ph.D. 🙂

Thanks for your reply. I totally agree with your statement that its the problem solving that makes it fun! I'm a junior honors student that is taking Microbiology this semester, and this pandemic vehemently demonstrated the uniqueness of the organisms that share so much of our world. I'm also an undergraduate researcher in a microbiology lab headed by a Microbiologist. So hopefully I'm not jumping into a Ph.D.! I feel like each experience is unique.

 

[Vet_Squared80]

I know this is an older thread, but for anyone that might be curious in the future....
I am a dual DVM/MPH candidate at Michigan State. My reasoning for getting an MPH isn't totally about future goals, though that is part of it. Basically it boiled down to being in school 4 years if I did both program simultaneously or 6 if I did them back to back. Since I'm a non-traditional student, I really didn't want to extend my time by 2 more years.
It actually works out well at MSU to do both programs together. I can transfer 9 credits from my DVM program to my MPH which means less courses to take. One of my clinics in 4th year will also count as my practicum experience, so again, less courses to take. I take the majority of my courses in the summer between my DVM program courses. I have take a handful during the year because the DVM program is on block tuition, which means I don't pay any extra to take the MPH course.
In the end, if I don't use it, I'm ok with that. I did my research and talked to sevearl people with MPH/DVM degrees and while there are less jobs available comparatively, ~25% of DVM jobs are closed to you if you don't have an MPH. Mostly in the government, but some in private industry as well.
Also, MSU's MPH program is all online. There are several schools that do this, but for ease of life, I chose to stay at MSU for mine. This is convenient and while I have been in school non-stop since 2018, having my MPH classes online in the summer means I can still have a summer without feeling like I'm tied to coursework.

 

[WildZoo]

I did not think a DVM/PhD was something I wanted to pursue until recently. I did a lot of research during undergrad and have been on two manuscripts and wrote an undergrad thesis to be published next week. I will start vet school this fall at Ross and will transfer out after a year into another institution. Do you think it would be possible or does anyone know anyone who has applied to start a PhD after the start of vet school. I know it obviously lasts longer than the DVM curriculum but wasn't sure if I could start a PhD in the middle of the vet curriculum or if it makes a difference.
Thanks

At my school they are consecutive. I only joined the program in my third year, so I basically did no PhD things prior to completing the DVM, besides the fact that I had already been working with my lab over the summers, and that I took a couple extra electives/journal clubs knowing that I would be able to transfer those credits to the PhD. Other people who join earlier may take classes over the summer. But the program here does not give the option to pause your DVM training to do the PhD.

 

[supershorty]

At my school they are consecutive. I only joined the program in my third year, so I basically did no PhD things prior to completing the DVM, besides the fact that I had already been working with my lab over the summers, and that I took a couple extra electives/journal clubs knowing that I would be able to transfer those credits to the PhD. Other people who join earlier may take classes over the summer. But the program here does not give the option to pause your DVM training to do the PhD.

I think it's going to be really good having both of us PhDing at the same time - it'll be nice to be able to give both concurrent/consecutive perspectives to prospective applicants!

(also PhD support buddies yay)

 

[WildZoo]

I think it's going to be really good having both of us PhDing at the same time - it'll be nice to be able to give both concurrent/consecutive perspectives to prospective applicants!

(also PhD support buddies yay)

I've gotten 5 emails about the project I'm taking over today and I still don't know what's happening

 

[supershorty]

I've gotten 5 emails about the project I'm taking over today and I still don't know what's happening

It's okay, I created my project and I'm on the second year of working on it and often don't know what's happening.

 

[Ariel-Li]

At my school they are consecutive. I only joined the program in my third year, so I basically did no PhD things prior to completing the DVM, besides the fact that I had already been working with my lab over the summers, and that I took a couple extra electives/journal clubs knowing that I would be able to transfer those credits to the PhD. Other people who join earlier may take classes over the summer. But the program here does not give the option to pause your DVM training to do the PhD.

Do dual degree holders have a better chance to become a clinician-researcher than DVMs who have research experience during vet school? Like, if I want to work in a teaching hospital and do some research in addition to clinical work, shall I pursue a dual degree, or do a DVM then choose a specialty?

 

[WildZoo]

Do dual degree holders have a better chance to become a clinician-researcher than DVMs who have research experience during vet school? Like, if I want to work in a teaching hospital and do some research in addition to clinical work, shall I pursue a dual degree, or do a DVM then choose a specialty?

Disclaimer that I'm certainly not an expert on this subject, but I think it depends on the specialty and the type of research you want to do. Most of the faculty members at my school are involved in research in some way or another, and not all of them have PhDs. Certainly you can do clinical studies and the like without that extra training.

 

[JaynaAli]

A lot of residency programs have built in masters degrees or PhDs. Most residencies have some sort of research requirement Even if you aren’t required to obtain an extra degree. This is typically applied clinical research rather than basic science research, so deciding what kind of research you want to do and/or what kind of specialty you want to pursue will influence the path you need to take, just like WildZoo said. For example, if you want to do pharmacology research in a basic science lab, a dual degree program (Or do the DVM then do a PhD after you graduate with your DVM) would probably be recommended, but if you want to be a surgeon and research whether certain surgical procedures improve outcomes then you’d probably go the straight DVM then surgery residency +/- concurrent MS/PhD route.

 

[Violin928]

Hello! I am currently preparing my application materials for this VMCAS cycle and I am also looking into several DVM/PhD programs. I have spoken with a current DVM/PhD student to hear more about their experience, but I still have one lingering question. Is it possible that focusing your VMCAS essays too much on the pursuit of a DVM/PhD program could negatively impact admissions decisions to the DVM alone? I know that some schools such as Cornell allow consideration for solely DVM if not admitted to the dual program.

I am interested in combining research and clinical experience, but I am concerned about my current research experience (not sure if it is competitive enough, as I have not contributed to any publications). I still wanted to give the DVM/PhD a shot, but I understand this decision is not one to be taken lightly and I was wondering if anyone had advice on the topic. I do not want to undercut my chances of admission to DVM by focusing on a career in research if my experience is not sufficient to gain admission to the dual-degree program,. Please advise. Thanks!

 

[supershorty]

I'm not sure what you mean by focusing on the pursuit of a DVM/PhD program. Are you not writing your essays about research and how it relates to your veterinary aspirations? If you're just talking about a program and not your long-term goal, then I think that wouldn't help your competitiveness for anything. But if you're tying your interest in research in with your interest in medicine, then no, that shouldn't impact your application negatively.

 

[Violin928]

I'm not sure what you mean by focusing on the pursuit of a DVM/PhD program. Are you not writing your essays about research and how it relates to your veterinary aspirations? If you're just talking about a program and not your long-term goal, then I think that wouldn't help your competitiveness for anything. But if you're tying your interest in research in with your interest in medicine, then no, that shouldn't impact your application negatively.

My apologies, I should have clarified that. I am writing about my interest in research and veterinary medicine and why I desire to synthesize the two in my career.

 

[journeyisthedestination]

My apologies, I should have clarified that. I am writing about my interest in research and veterinary medicine and why I desire to synthesize the two in my career.

I applied last cycle and I most definitely spoke about what you just said. However, I spoke about other areas of interest as well. Best of luck! 🙂

 

[Violin928]

I applied last cycle and I most definitely spoke about what you just said. However, I spoke about other areas of interest as well. Best of luck! 🙂

Thank you!