Duke vs. Yale...

[samsung]

Ive seen alot of comparison threads involving these two but never have seen one matched up against the other.

Both are in small cities niether of which is that great. New Haven is 1.5 hours out of NYC. Durham has good outdoor activities nearby and Blue Devils bball is another good distraction.

Weatherwise Duke gets the edge.

Both have similar name recognition/prestige although Yale might have a bit more.

I think both match equally well but I'm not sure. I'm sure it's pretty close.

They both have something unique in there curriculum. Yale with the all p/f and independent learning style. Duke with the accelerated pre-clinicals and 3rd devoted to research/dual degree/whatever.

Niether one seems like its cutthroat competitive (despite Duke's intense first year)

In terms of clinicals...well I don't know a damn thing about that maybe you guys could help.

So...Which one do you like more and why?

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[postbacker]

Ive seen alot of comparison threads involving these two but never have seen one matched up against the other.

Both are in small cities niether of which is that great. New Haven is 1.5 hours out of NYC. Durham has good outdoor activities nearby and Blue Devils bball is another good distraction.

Weatherwise Duke gets the edge.

Both have similar name recognition/prestige although Yale might have a bit more.

I think both match equally well but I'm not sure. I'm sure it's pretty close.

They both have something unique in there curriculum. Yale with the all p/f and independent learning style. Duke with the accelerated pre-clinicals and 3rd devoted to research/dual degree/whatever.

Niether one seems like its cutthroat competitive (despite Duke's intense first year)

In terms of clinicals...well I don't know a damn thing about that maybe you guys could help.

So...Which one do you like more and why?

You simply can't go wrong with Harvard...reasons are obvious.

 

[deleted103644]

Harvard's NIH dollars are a lie. Most of the people getting the money are barely associated with Harvard.

 

[WildcatMD2]

Although this is completely irrelevant to the more important questions, I think to get bball tickets at Duke, you'd have to spend your life in tent city (better known as Krzyzewskiville), which I've heard from Duke students can resemble a third-world country. It might provide you with some interesting opportunities to practice what you've learned in the classroom, but probably not the best idea while suffering going to Duke Med. Just my two cents...

As far as med schools go though, I think most would agree that Duke wins out in the prestige category, if that's any factor.

 

[deleted103644]

I would decide solely on which style I prefered. If you want complete control of your education, go to Yale, if you need structure, go to Duke. I didn't apply to Duke so I can't say much about it, but Yale's match list is incredible and I don't think there's any way you could honestly say it was a less prestigious school. It does give you enough rope to hang yourself with though, and there have been rumors of students goofing off and not passing boards in the past.

 

[Kaydubz]

and Blue Devils bball is another good distraction.

Yes, yes...a "distraction" is what I would say they've been reduced to these days. A distracting mosquito that one swat will take care of. Mwahaha..

This is why Duke sucks

😎

/oh wait, you were talking about their med school? oh ok then.

 

[gates_2]

I'm an undergrad at Duke

Grad students do not camp out for all the games. Instead, they camp out for one weekend to get tickets for the entire season... talk about a sweet deal! K-ville isn't as bad as people say it is, although I won't be tenting anytime soon...

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

Um... here's a big reason you forgot to think about or mention... Duke's hospitals are basically top 20 in everything. A whole lot of ppl end up matching for residency at the same school cuz they have already done rotations there and ppl like them. For Duke, that is awesome cuz ure getting into a great program. For Yale on the other hand, not so great to be doing residency at Yale.

 

[deleted103644]

Um... here's a big reason you forgot to think about or mention... Duke's hospitals are basically top 20 in everything. A whole lot of ppl end up matching for residency at the same school cuz they have already done rotations there and ppl like them. For Duke, that is awesome cuz ure getting into a great program. For Yale on the other hand, not so great to be doing residency at Yale.

Ask anyone who goes to Yale or has seen the match list - it is unbelievable. You are right that people generally do not stay in New Haven for residency, but aside from a couple of people who didn't seem to be trying (judging from the titles of their theses) and one MD/JD who went on to a much more lucrative career as an associate at one of NYC's best law firms, the match list reads like a list of the top hospitals in the country. Unless you're set on Duke for your residency, I doubt there's any advantage to Duke. To the OP, I know someone else who was in your position and chose Yale, I can try to get more info on her exact decision process if you'd like. It's a good choice to have.

 

[samsung]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

And johnnydrama Im not even anywhere near applying for med schools right now. I was just making a comparison thread for the hell of it. Thanks tho. Also Entourage is the greatest show on the bloody planet.

 

[Dr JPH]

I lived in New Haven for a little while.

I wouldnt want to do it again. JMHO

 

[shantster]

Ask anyone who goes to Yale or has seen the match list - it is unbelievable. You are right that people generally do not stay in New Haven for residency, but aside from a couple of people who didn't seem to be trying (judging from the titles of their theses) and one MD/JD who went on to a much more lucrative career as an associate at one of NYC's best law firms, the match list reads like a list of the top hospitals in the country. Unless you're set on Duke for your residency, I doubt there's any advantage to Duke. To the OP, I know someone else who was in your position and chose Yale, I can try to get more info on her exact decision process if you'd like. It's a good choice to have.

Here's one thing that I heard about match lists - you want to see people matching to their own institution. It's a good indicator of how the students perceive their clinical training since they have first hand experience with it. Even if they are matching to the top hospitals, it's telling if they don't want to stay in the same institution.

 

[pagemmapants]

As someone already mentioned, grad students don't camp in K-ville for tickets - there's sort of a sweet deal where they just camp out for the weekend and get free pizza. Sweet.

Honestly though, in this case I think it will (and should) come down to individual preference in curriculum. I interviewed at both Yale and Duke and even though I really liked the students and the environment at Yale, I knew once I left that I'd end up at Duke. Why? The curricula. After majoring in hard sciences I knew that there was no way I would be able to stay motivated during 2 more years of science lectures ,especially when there would be nothing specific and imminent to keep me from falling behind. I'd end up blowing off "self-test #12" to go snowboarding or something like that. Instead, here at Duke, I'm already done with my basic sciences, feel like I've learned a (pardon the phrase) ****-ton of information, and never once did I get a chance to blow off 2 weeks of school (despite dearly wanting to). Not only that, but I've done well - and I start rotations next month whereas my peers at other schools? One more year of drudgery in the library. No thanks. Not to mention the awesomeness that's going to be an entire year in the plastics & reconstructive surgery lab doing microsurgery research. W00T!

Another consideration might be the grading. If you're ok with P/F for the first two years, go with Yale. If you think you'd be able to clamber up to 90% in everything and want the Hs to distinguish your basic science performance, come to Duke. Then again, you only get 4 grades for the whole basic sciences curriculum here, so "PHPH" from Duke looks a lot different than "PHPHPH" + "PHHPHP" even though they're pretty much equivalent.

Environment. Ok, both New Haven and Durham kind of suck. Whatever. If you like rock climbing or hiking or biking or any of those delicious outdoorsy sports, come here. I'm sure there's "stuff to do" up in NH during the winter or whatever but I can't stand being stuck inside for weeks on end so this place is WAY better for me in that respect. Unfortunately August inevitably blows due to the 90% humidity/90 degree heat combo - but if you're lucky you'll get a hurricane to break the monotony!

In sum, I love it here. PM if you want more info.

 

[postbacker]

...I interviewed at both Yale and Duke and even though I really liked the students and the environment at Yale, I knew once I left that I'd end up at Duke. Why? The curricula. After majoring in hard sciences I knew that there was no way I would be able to stay motivated during 2 more years of science lectures ,especially when there would be nothing specific and imminent to keep me from falling behind. I'd end up blowing off "self-test #12" to go snowboarding or something like that. Instead, here at Duke, I'm already done with my basic sciences, feel like I've learned a (pardon the phrase) ****-ton of information, and never once did I get a chance to blow off 2 weeks of school (despite dearly wanting to). Not only that, but I've done well - and I start rotations next month whereas my peers at other schools? One more year of drudgery in the library. No thanks. Not to mention the awesomeness that's going to be an entire year in the plastics & reconstructive surgery lab doing microsurgery research. W00T!

As a lib arts non-trad, my concern about Duke is the opposite of your bolded statement - I would fear being overwhelmed by the compressed one year basic science curriculum...any thoughts on this? Otherwise, Duke sounds great...but Yale sounds just as great to me...

 

[pagemmapants]

Well to give you some idea we have kids in our class ranging from philosophy to molecular biology to political science, some grad students from sociology, and some people who have been out of college for >5 years - all of whom passed 1st year. In fact, one of the poli-sci dudes is sitting pretty somewhere near the top 20% of the class, so in no way do you have to have majored in biochem or something ridiculous to do well here.

All of the biochemistry/molbio is mostly condensed into the first block, called Molecules and Cells, which is P/F. The rest of it - anatomy, physio, pathology, etc (possibly with the exception of immunology) is stuff that likely nobody has been exposed to (even most of the hard science majors) so you'll all be on the same playing field once Normal Body (block 2 - the first H/P/F block) rolls around. Even if you HAVE been exposed to some of that before (i.e. if you were a physiological science or immuno major) it won't help you much at all. One of my friends even said that having her masters in neuroscience helped almost nil during the "Brain and Behavior" block.

What I meant with my "after majoring in hard sciences" statement was that I'd already busted my ass in upper div science classes reading journal articles and listening to someone drone on about the Notch/Delta signalling pathway in a relatively incomprehensible accent so I was sick and tired of lecture halls and would go insane if I had to spend 2 more years doing a similar thing, even if the content were different. 😉

 

[postbacker]

Well to give you some idea we have kids in our class ranging from philosophy to molecular biology to political science, some grad students from sociology, and some people who have been out of college for >5 years - all of whom passed 1st year. In fact, one of the poli-sci dudes is sitting pretty somewhere near the top 20% of the class, so in no way do you have to have majored in biochem or something ridiculous to do well here.

All of the biochemistry/molbio is mostly condensed into the first block, called Molecules and Cells, which is P/F. The rest of it - anatomy, physio, pathology, etc (possibly with the exception of immunology) is stuff that likely nobody has been exposed to (even most of the hard science majors) so you'll all be on the same playing field once Normal Body (block 2 - the first H/P/F block) rolls around. Even if you HAVE bene exposed to some of that before (i.e. if you were a physiological science or immuno major) it won't help you much at all. One of my friends even said that having her masters in neuroscience helped almost nil during the "Brain and Behavior" block.

What I meant with my "after majoring in hard sciences" statement was that I'd already busted my ass in upper div science classes reading journal articles and listening to someone drone on about the Notch/Delta signalling pathway so I was sick and tired of lecture halls and would go insane if I had to spend 2 more years doing a similar thing, even if the content were different. 😉

Thanks for detail...I enjoy your posts (I have been quite impressed by the posts contributed by other Duke meds as well). I get more out of the well written posts by students at the different med schools than just about anything else on SDN...

 

[samsung]

Nice replies.

Now I know New Haven blows...but how bad is it really and what's it like to live there for 4 years?

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

I can't remember the specifics, but I'm sure plenty stayed at Yale. Then again, there is a big difference between deciding to go to school in New Haven and deciding to spend your residency there. You should basically plan to go to a residency in the city/state you want to end up in, and while New Haven is a fine place to spend 4 years in I wouldn't want to stay there. Then again, for me that's true of pretty much every city except one. :-D

Yale is actually very well known for having the least number of students match back to their own residency programs. Why you ask... well, cuz Yale's hospitals actually aren't that good relative to their high-ranking medical school. So, for all those over-achieving med students, they do match at top schools around the nation, but not usually back at Yale cuz its not that good. All I was really saying about Yale is that their med students really dont have their own school as a strong backup for residency the way Duke students do. It just makes their lives a little more difficult once they apply for residency (not that they don't all match well tho).

 

[JohnMadden]

Well to give you some idea we have kids in our class ranging from philosophy to molecular biology to political science, some grad students from sociology, and some people who have been out of college for >5 years - all of whom passed 1st year. In fact, one of the poli-sci dudes is sitting pretty somewhere near the top 20% of the class, so in no way do you have to have majored in biochem or something ridiculous to do well here.

How and when do you start becoming aware of your class rank?

 

[The Doctor]

How and when do you start becoming aware of your class rank?

Haha, strangely enough the same question immediately popped through my mind as I read her message. I wonder how many of us next year will have latent gunner tendencies and how that will affect class dynamics. It must be pretty intense to have so many Ultra - type A personalities coming together in one classroom.

 

[Entirecropslost]

I though this would be a no brainer.....Yale. The only schools i think that stack up to it are harvard or mayo.

 

[JacobSilge]

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned between the two is time. When I interviewed at Yale the director of admissions said that about 55% of the students spend at least five years at Yale. The fifth year is spent as a research year or to get a second degree (MS/MBA/MPH being the most popular). At Duke you could do all that in the standard four years due to the open third year in the curriculum. It also looks like a few students choose to do a "second third year" in order to get both a second degree and do a research year. However, at Yale the extra degree is tuition free which is also a huge plus.

Last, when comparing match lists between the two (both of which are amazing btw) you have to take into account regional selection bias. As a Northeasterner, Yale's list looked a little better at first because of the overrepresentation of great hospitals in the NYC/Boston areas. Duke's is biased towards Southern Schools due to locational bias as well, so I'd consider them roughly equivalent. Besides, both schools give you plenty of time to do well on Step I and to do research and that's what will matter the most when it comes to matching anyway.

 

[pagemmapants]

How and when do you start becoming aware of your class rank?

Mmmm, it helps if you have fairly open/honest friends. However, for every exam they post a histogram of the distribution of scores so you know vaguely where you fall for each individual exam. I'm extrapolating from that, just assuming that people don't stray much more than 3-5% from some central score that they "average". TBQH the administration doesn't give you any good idea of where you fall but you can make some educated guesses based on what your peers say combined with the histograms.

 

[pagemmapants]

I though this would be a no brainer.....Yale. The only schools i think that stack up to it are harvard or mayo.

Sweeping statement, but where's your evidence? . . .or at the very least, an explanation.

 

[DrBowtie]

Sweeping statement, but where's your evidence? . . .or at the very least, an explanation.

Ease of secondary?

 

[pagemmapants]

Haha, strangely enough the same question immediately popped through my mind as I read her message. I wonder how many of us next year will have latent gunner tendencies and how that will affect class dynamics. It must be pretty intense to have so many Ultra - type A personalities coming together in one classroom.

Ha - well - I'm not sure about your class but let me give you the low-down. Apparently, the class above mine (c/o 2009) is the "slacker class" - indeed, they had 40% fewer students honor block 2 than the class before. My class (c/o 2010) has been doing obnoxiously well (averaging about 83-86% on most exams) but there have been some rumors of cheating (none verified that I know of, but I might be out of the loop). On a more entertaining note, at last count there were FOURTEEN intra-class couples. Yes, 28% of the class. Overall, and apart from the medcest, I think my class is much more cohesive than I ever expected. Yes, we've got some brilliant ones but there are only a few (like <5) that I would qualify as having overt "gunner" tendencies that are off-putting.

Believe me, I had the same concerns before I started and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. We were pretty sick of each other by the end of the year - there's no question about that - but I couldn't have reasonably expected a more cohesive, generally friendly class.

Of course, that's after a year of in-class stuff where how you perform has no effect on how other people are viewed. Our exams are absolutely NOT graded on a curve so if Johnny Prepster makes a 96% it doesn't make your 93% any less impressive. Alternatively, however, Bobbi Candyface's 53% doesn't make your 72% any less borderline. It's easy to avoid competition when it does appear, though - just stick your fingers in your ears and make like a boy soprano.

Maybe ask me again after rotations start - I hear that's when the closet bazookas come out of the woodwork and those that you never expected to be competitive come out with their guns blazing.

 

[pagemmapants]

Ease of secondary?

Ah yes, the famed epistle of a secondary. Paraphrasing one of our admissions staff members: Self-selection is a marvellous thing.

 

[JohnMadden]

So when do you first learn about your class rank? (after 1st year, 1st block, 1st day?)

 

[pagemmapants]

Beats me. So far as I know (and according to one of the advisory deans) you never do. We don't get "ranked" 1 thru 101 but your position in the class is subtley reflected during the application process via the wording of your advisory dean recommendation letter and whether or not you're in AOA. Top 25% of the class is "eligible" for AOA acceptance, then beyond that I *think* selection here is pretty much subjective; i.e. ECs, research, etc. Very few people make junior AOA here, at least from this years' set.

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

JohnMadden, you are ranked first in our class currently.

 

[JohnMadden]

JohnMadden, you are ranked first in our class currently.

Thanks! So are you. for now...😀

The reason I ask is that I've had friends at other schools that found out about their rankings in very weird ways. One asked for a research opportunity and the professor said that he would get back to him. Then the professor wrote him a short note about his class rank not being at the level it should be for that particular opportunitiy.

 

[pagemmapants]

Ugh, what an ass. That sucks. 🙁

Nope, research stuff isn't based on class rank at all, as far as I know. The lab I'm tentatively set to work in for 3rd year never even asked.

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

Thanks! So are you. for now...😀

The reason I ask is that I've had friends at other schools that found out about their rankings in very weird ways. One asked for a research opportunity and the professor said that he would get back to him. Then the professor wrote him a short note about his class rank not being at the level it should be for that particular opportunitiy.

Actually, I was under the impression that I was currently ranked last.

 

[Husky85]

Nice replies.

Now I know New Haven blows...but how bad is it really and what's it like to live there for 4 years?

New Haven does not blow. I love New Haven. Best Pizza this side of the Atlantic (yes, even better than most places in NYC). Decent bar scene. The only thing lacking is that their public transportation system isn't fantastic (like Boston or NYC) it's just adequate (like Philadelphia). I could understand where Samsung is coming from if (s)he moved to New Haven from another part of the country. It definitely has new england weather, so if you're a ***** southerner you're not going to like that part. And the nightlife and transportation isn't as good as other NE cities like Philly, Boston, or NYC

...but this is a COMPARISON thread and New Haven beats the hell out of Durham...you can't even make an argument for Durham...

Durham has...
-more crime
-worse nightlife
-worse housing availability
-worse weather (i'm a skiier from new england, anywhere that doesn't get snow doesn't get my respect either!)
-worse pace of life (everything moves so damn slow in the south)

 

[CTtarheel]

Unlike Husky85, who has never actually been to Durham, I can actually speak with some authority about Durham. Yes, it does indeed blow. It's a dirty old city which is good (lot's of interesting cases) and bad (don't leave campus) for a medical student. Good news is the southern part of heaven is only 10 minutes away!

But seriously, Dook is the easiest med school to either set your sights on or rule out. If research is very important to you, you can't beat their curriculum which will enable you to do some serious research without spending an extra year. I'm sure both schools will be equally competitive and high stress, so if you're looking for a more laid back school, neither of these are good choices.

 

[Husky85]

Notice how CTtarheel didn't argue anything I said...because I'm right! Enough of the personal attacks!!!

Durham the city sucks on its own merits (or lack thereof). Dook sucks on principle (if you haven't noticed, I'm a big UConn fan). Now I won't go insulting the fine institution of higher learning down the hill from Dook because that would sent CTtarheel into a seething rage.

But seriously...if you want to be a good practicing physician you're better off at yale or another school. Duke does a great job at training physician-scientists...not necessarily practicing physicians. And if you want to have a life outside medical school, Duke students are run into the ground, especially during the intensive first year, where Yale students have more free time and better things to do to enjoy that free time.

 

[Kaydubz]

Unlike Husky85, who has never actually been to Durham, I can actually speak with some authority about Durham. Yes, it does indeed blow. It's a dirty old city which is good (lot's of interesting cases) and bad (don't leave campus) for a medical student. Good news is the southern part of heaven is only 10 minutes away!

But seriously, Dook is the easiest med school to either set your sights on or rule out. If research is very important to you, you can't beat their curriculum which will enable you to do some serious research without spending an extra year. I'm sure both schools will be equally competitive and high stress, so if you're looking for a more laid back school, neither of these are good choices.

👍

I've had the pleasure of navigating Durham's bus system getting somewhere for my pre-employment drug tests in some suburb more than a few times. Durham's got a bad rap. When my friend who lives there tells me about typically hearing gunshots and getting school cancellations because of "gang threats," it might deserve its reputation. But still, I don't think it's all that bad!

It must've felt pretty awesome to get into UNC's med school as an out-of-stater. I am also a New Englander hoping for a similar outcome to yours. Are you gonna be eligible for in-state tuition anytime during your stay at UNCCH SOM? 🙂

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

But seriously...if you want to be a good practicing physician you're better off at yale or another school. Duke does a great job at training physician-scientists...not necessarily practicing physicians. And if you want to have a life outside medical school, Duke students are run into the ground, especially during the intensive first year, where Yale students have more free time and better things to do to enjoy that free time.

Actually, somewhere on mdapps there are the stats of how residency directors rank medical schools and it is the following:

1) Havard
2) Hopkins
3) Not Yale (care to take a guess what it is??? Hint: starts with a D and ends in an uke)

 

[Husky85]

Actually, somewhere on mdapps there are the stats of how residency directors rank medical schools and it is the following:

1) Havard
2) Hopkins
3) Not Yale (care to take a guess what it is??? Hint: starts with a D and ends in an uke)

You'll notice I didn't say anything about residency directors, because that's not a measure of anything (and is probably swayed because so many Duke grads stay at Duke for residency and they're not gonna poop on their own doormat). Other schools do a better job of training practicing physicians (although I'll admit that Yale is not much better). Arguing which of these schools are academically better is really just a matter of preference. If you like structure more than flexibility, Duke is better. If you like spreading your work out over all 4 years rather than frontloading a ton of your work into the first year, then Yale is better. Both match incredibly well, both are tied for 8 in USNWR Rankings for Research. Both are ranked fairly low for primary care (so if you're interested in family med, save the money and go to a different school).

There is no argument, however, about location. New Haven is much much much better than Durham. Much. Unless your taste is prostitutes who will frame you for rape...if you're all about that, please go to Durham.

 

[The Doctor]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4974661&postcount=10

^ There're the US news residency director rankings, for what they're worth.

I remember looking at that list too when I was looking at Duke and it seemed reassuring.

As far as living environment goes, Husky, I think it falls down to personal preference and what you are comfortable with. You've mentioned life is slow in the South -- well, having grown up in NC, lived in Georgia, and then attended undergrad in Tennessee, I can honestly say I would rather not live anywhere else. I would absolutely hate to live up north. There is plenty of snow for skiing in the winter if you drive a few hours west to the Appalachians and at the same time, the beach is only a few hours east and warm enough to swim in during summer. Housing is very available in Durham and much cheaper.

 

[CTtarheel]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=4974661&postcount=10

^ There's the US news residency director rankings, for what they're worth.

I remember looking at that list too when I was looking at Duke and it seemed reassuring.

I know . . . I've heard that most Yale grads can't even match, and the ones that do have to match into FM or peds. I mean, if you're going to go to Yale, you might as well just go Caribbean. Nobody respects Yale like they do Dook.

 

[spanamit]

Nobody respects Yale like they do Dook.

 

[Husky85]

I know . . . I've heard that most Yale grads can't even match, and the ones that do have to match into FM or peds. I mean, if you're going to go to Yale, you might as well just go Caribbean. Nobody respects Yale like they do Dook.

If you're gonna be sarcastic, at least include a face to clue us in!

And if you're serious about this comment, then you need more help than I can provide. Ha ha ha!

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

The Doctor = The Man
CTarHill = Jealous that he goes to the ****tiest school in NC 😛
Husky85 = n00bish lunatic

 

[Dr Durden]

There is no argument, however, about location. New Haven is much much much better than Durham. Much. Unless your taste is prostitutes who will frame you for rape...if you're all about that, please go to Durham.

Nifong got disbarred, and I'm pretty sure you can't be on the lacrosse team as a medical student.

Now back to the p1ssing contest over prestige and residency director ratings.

 

[Husky85]

The Doctor = The Man
CTarHill = Jealous that he goes to the ****tiest school in NC 😛
Husky85 = n00bish lunatic

I just could never live south of the Mason-Dixon line. That's my prerogative. The Doctor is also entitled to prefer the south. I admit that that is up to preference.

FemalesCANTDrive, there's no need to be a jerk, we were having a nice conversation until you decided to make it personal! I'll let CTtarheel tear you a new one for insulting the great UNCSOM, lol. Let me guess, you go to Duke? Figured as much.

I think this thread has been kinda arguing a moot point. Duke and Yale are better at different things...but just the fact that you have a choice between the two schools should be enough of a matter of pride for anyone. You really can't go wrong with either.

 

[JohnMadden]

But seriously...if you want to be a good practicing physician you're better off at yale or another school. Duke does a great job at training physician-scientists...not necessarily practicing physicians.

I believe this statement is misguided. You are not trained as a physician in medical school. A physician's clinical skills are in no way related to their undergraduate medical education (hence "residency-training"). There may be self selection in that people who are interested in research choose Duke. I don't even like research, but I like having the option of doing it without adding another year.

People say the same thing about Hopkins being research oriented, but 80-85% of their medical students ultimately choose private practice (That's what one of the deans told me during revisit weekend).

IMO, go where you think you will have the best chance to do well on Step 1. I chose Duke because I figured there's enough to do on campus to stay busy (intramurals, sports, etc) but where I can be bored enough to study my tail off fore Step 1. I also like the "bare bones" basic science approach.

There is one thing the confuses me: Current duke students say that taking step 1 after the second year (clinical) is a good idea because it is preparation for the clinical vignettes. But the majority of medical students take Step 1 without having ever stepped foot on the wards... Which leads me to wonder why we shouldn't take Step 1 after the first year??? I haven't heard a good answer to this...

 

[JacobSilge]

There is one thing the confuses me: Current duke students say that taking step 1 after the second year (clinical) is a good idea because it is preparation for the clinical vignettes. But the majority of medical students take Step 1 without having ever stepped foot on the wards... Which leads me to wonder why we shouldn't take Step 1 after the first year??? I haven't heard a good answer to this...

The answer I heard from some third years was lack of time. Summer between years 1 and 2 is under a month which isn't nearly enough time to study while you can take off two months if you want to study for Step I after first year or study during some time when your research schedule is more managable.

Also, I fully echo your sentiment that none of the 162 medicals will prepare a "good practicing physician." At best one could argue that one med school prepares better interns than another, but I really doubt there's an apprciable difference between the two (same two clinical years).

 

[Husky85]

I believe this statement is misguided. You are not trained as a physician in medical school. A physician's clinical skills are in no way related to their undergraduate medical education (hence "residency-training"). There may be self selection in that people who are interested in research choose Duke. I don't even like research, but I like having the option of doing it without adding another year.

This isn't entirely true, which is the point I was getting at. All schools do incorporate some clinical training, but some make it more of an emphasis than others. Some schools start with clinical training from year one (concurrent with textbook education) and lasting all four years...others do essentially only a year and a half of clinical training (third and half of fourth years). Some schools allow their medical students to have a very hands-on training experience, while others don't. Most schools fall somewhere in the middle. If Duke is devoting a full year to research, they are not devoting that year to clinical education while other schools would. Schools that are doing the extra work in clinical training early on are not providing as strong of a background in research. There are only so many hours a day and so many days a year, so medical schools prioritize. It doesn't make any of them "bad" or "good", just more or less amenable to a particular student depending on their goals.

This is fairly irrelevant in this discussion though, because I did make a mistake (although not the one you called me on). Duke does not offer the extent of clinical preparation that Yale does, but they aren't as far behind in this department as one would think. So this difference between these two schools is minor. And also, at Yale and at Duke you're clearly going to get a great education, so don't sweat the small stuff!

 

[Husky85]

The answer I heard from some third years was lack of time. Summer between years 1 and 2 is under a month which isn't nearly enough time to study while you can take off two months if you want to study for Step I after first year or study during some time when your research schedule is more managable.

Also, I fully echo your sentiment that none of the 162 medicals will prepare a "good practicing physician." At best one could argue that one med school prepares better interns than another, but I really doubt there's an apprciable difference between the two (same two clinical years).

I completely agree that the reason for the scheduling of the step 1 at most schools is out of convenience and since it's really the only significant block of free time following the completion of the textbook education.

I also agree that there's not much difference in the scheduling of the 2 clinical years themselves. Many schools choose to emphasize clinical training outside the 2 clinical years though, while other schools emphasize research during that time, etc. Also, within the clinical years some schools allow their med students to get more in depth than others in actually performing procedures (even if it is just retracting in surgery or providing traction on a broken bone) or participating in the decisionmaking process, while other schools use their med students like secretaries doing paperwork or glorified orderlies moving patients. Phew, nobody likes the arguement I'm making here, but I'm right, I swear!!!