DVM options abroad for Canadians?

[kittensmeow]

Hello,

I confess that I did post this in a Canadian forum but I received zero replies and later discovered this forum, which seems much larger, so I'm re-posting here. Apologies to anyone who is reading this for the 2nd time.

I'm a non-trad interested in becoming a veterinarian and I'm curious to know if obtaining the DVM degree abroad is a viable option for those who cannot get into a Canadian vet school. Here is my situation:

I'm 31 years old and have several degrees already: Bachelor's, Master's and a professional degree. My grades from undergrad are decent but not stellar (3.69 CGPA). I have all A-s, As and A+s in my Master's and professional degree, but I supposed those won't be considered?

I've always loved animals and have previously volunteered working with sick/injured animals. However, I don't have the prerequisites and I haven't written the MCAT.

So, before investing so much time and money into preparing for applying to a DVM program, it would be comforting to know that some options exist outside of the one and only Canadian school I am eligible to gain acceptance from (Guelph, since I live in Ontario)

Are there alternatives for those who don't get into the school in their province? I know medical and dental students sometimes consider US, UK, Caribbean, Australia, etc.. Do any of these places provide options for DVM applicants who would like to return to Canada afterwards?

Thanks everyone for your help!

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[dovelover]

Hello,

I confess that I did post this in a Canadian forum but I received zero replies and later discovered this forum, which seems much larger, so I'm re-posting here. Apologies to anyone who is reading this for the 2nd time.

I'm a non-trad interested in becoming a veterinarian and I'm curious to know if obtaining the DVM degree abroad is a viable option for those who cannot get into a Canadian vet school. Here is my situation:

I'm 31 years old and have several degrees already: Bachelor's, Master's and a professional degree. My grades from undergrad are decent but not stellar (3.69 CGPA). I have all A-s, As and A+s in my Master's and professional degree, but I supposed those won't be considered?

I've always loved animals and have previously volunteered working with sick/injured animals. However, I don't have the prerequisites and I haven't written the MCAT.

So, before investing so much time and money into preparing for applying to a DVM program, it would be comforting to know that some options exist outside of the one and only Canadian school I am eligible to gain acceptance from (Guelph, since I live in Ontario)

Are there alternatives for those who don't get into the school in their province? I know medical and dental students sometimes consider US, UK, Caribbean, Australia, etc.. Do any of these places provide options for DVM applicants who would like to return to Canada afterwards?

Thanks everyone for your help!

Just as a caveat, I am not Canadian, but I'll do my best to help you out!

First of all, your undergrad GPA really is not that bad (though I suppose it depends somewhat on what your coursework was in). I can't speak for all schools, but as far as I know generally grades from graduate degrees are included in cGPA calculations, as well as last 45s. But not always considered for prerequisites.

As far as going international, as long as you stick with the major schools, you should have no problems practicing in Canada after you earn your DVM. Any appropriately accredited UK school will allow you to practice anywhere in the British Commonwealth, which includes Canada. I imagine Australian schools are probably similar, but I don't know. You're fine with US schools too. US and Canadian vets take the same licensing exam (NAVLE) However not a lot of Canadian vets/prevets I've met go for the US option. They either think it's too expensive compared to their in-province option or the requirements (either for prerequisites or experience) are too extreme. The AVMA accredited Caribbean schools also allow you to practice in Canada or the US after you graduate.

Oh and by the way, most schools want the GRE, not the MCAT

 

[jmo1012]

First of all, your undergrad GPA really is not that bad (though I suppose it depends somewhat on what your coursework was in). I can't speak for all schools, but as far as I know generally grades from graduate degrees are included in cGPA calculations, as well as last 45s. But not always considered for prerequisites.

I bet that this might actually be considered "too low" for canadian schools - my canadian roommate had something like a 3.7_ when she applied 3 times and was rejected each time because her GPA wasn't good enough 😱

We have quite a few canadian students here at SGU (and I bet Ross is the same). We have 4th year contracts with two of the Canadian schools (PEI and one other) if you want to do your 4th year in canada. Canadian students are treated no differently here, it's one big mixing bowl of students from around the US and around the world. provided that you do well in your pre-reqs and veterinary experience, you'd have a very good chance of getting in here.

since you are 31 currently, i recommend you really think about what you're willing to sacrifice if you get yourself into vet med. you definitely have several good options outside of canada, but do some thinking about what you'll have to give up if you go that route. family, relationship, kids? these can be factors that make going out of country much more complicated. you can certainly bring them with you, but it will definitely add to the complexity of things. good luck! (FWIW i'm a single unattached 23yo F. i left behind my parents, my brothers, and my guinea pig. i was not and am still not in a relationship let alone a serious one, and i have no kids. SGU was a relatively easy choice for me to make. )

 

[that redhead]

I bet that this might actually be considered "too low" for canadian schools - my canadian roommate had something like a 3.7_ when she applied 3 times and was rejected each time because her GPA wasn't good enough 😱

Eh, it depends. I specifically applied to AVC because they looked at specific classes that I happened to have done well in. So while my cGPA was <3.0, I got an early offer because of my awesome academics😕 Probably because the GPA calculated for those specific classes was a lot higher, haha.

 

[Escalla]

I went sort of through the same thought process as you in terms of trying to find schools outside of Canada that would be viable options. I live in Alberta, so I have UCVM/WCVM and completed my undergrad degree in the U.S. so I could explore more options down there. The U.S. is definitely an option for you, however it is a lot of money. More than what I was willing to cough up when my acceptance letter from Kansas State came. I didn't think I had a snowball's chance getting into WCVM or UCVM as I had a rough start in undergrad before transferring to the U.S. That wasn't true however and I interviewed at both schools and was waitlisted at one. Have you applied to OVC? One option would to move to a different province where the competition is less. For WCVM, I believe Manitoba and Saskatchewan are less competitive since they have less applicants than AB and BC. That's always an option as well.

I did a lot of research into schools outside North America and I can tell you that any school that is AVMA accredited you will be just fine in. I've meet veterinarians from the UK, Australia, New Zealand and the Caribbean that are well trained and had good experiences at their school. Cost however is another factor as basically any school that you attend outside of Canada is at least 4x the cost. But it is possible and Canadians attend these schools, write the NAVLE and come back to Canada to practice.

Anyways, let me know if you have any questions! I'm usually on here quite a bit. Or you can send me a PM too. 🙂

 

[jmo1012]

Eh, it depends. I specifically applied to AVC because they looked at specific classes that I happened to have done well in. So while my cGPA was <3.0, I got an early offer because of my awesome academics😕 Probably because the GPA calculated for those specific classes was a lot higher, haha.

i'm so happy to hear they arent all that way! we're just always like 😱 how is that number too low?!

 

[Trematode]

I am assuming you are an Ontario resident that had to apply to Guelph. Then you will need the MCAT and you will also need to look at their admission requirements. If you are missing any of the pre-reqs, it is incredibly unlikely they will make any exceptions. I encourage you to look at them and ask admissions any questions you have. Grad school grades do not count at all for AVC, so I am hesitant to go to grad school. They are also very strict as to what they accept for their pre-reqs for instance.

I am currently trying to get into AVC. They require 20 pre-reqs. I am in the most competitive province. With my GRE score being average, I need at least an 83 in my pre-reqs to get an interview. This fluctuates each year and tends to be lower in less competitive provinces. Some schools look at certain pre-reqs, some look at GPA and some look at your last 2 years I do believe. So having marks in the 80s isn't an end-all.

The downside with applying internationally is that you cannot get loans easily. Student loans give you a maximum of $14 000/year. Someone recently posted that they can give you a grant of up to $95 000 to study vet med abroad but they could not find any information at all for me. With international tuition alone being in the $30 000-$40 000 range per year for accredited schools, you either have to be wealthy or find a way to get that money from a bank. Because of this, applying internationally will never e a viable option for me.

 

[CalliopeDVM]

You have the option of applying to any AVMA accredited school and still be eligible to practice back in Canada (after you pass the provincial licensing exam, of course). I know an Ontario resident who is look at going to either Edinburgh or London next year, and I worked with an Ontario resident who went to school in Australia. There are 11 vet schools in English that are outside of the US and Canada.

 

[Escalla]

I haven't given up the search yet, but it wasn't this hard to find a year ago. 🙁 Trema brings up a good point. My parents are helping me, but the government isn't that great at giving out as much as we'll need to attend.

 

[mas185]

Based on your stats you would definitely be a competitive applicant to UCD in Ireland, but like everyone mentioned it's WAY more expensive. We do have a whole bunch of Canadians in our program and they all love it and plan to go back to Canada to practice but the majority of them have help with their loans (either they don't have any, their parents mortgaged something or co-signed a bank loan etc). The plus side is you don't have to take an exam to get in, so you could apply now without doing any extra prep ... We did also have one girl who transferred home to Western in Saskatchewan after her first year to save money so that's something you could attempt. I'd say definitely check out your finance options though if you can't get in to your province's school, there are tons of good options if you can find the funding!

 

[Trematode]

I was advised not to depend on transferring. Someone would have to drop out or defer a year for that to happen :/

 

[jestry]

Unrelated question that has been confusing me for a while (google is giving conflicting results):

Are Canadian and US GPA systems the same? The whole percentile to gpa thing is really confusing. And I've heard for 3.6 not being good enough for an interview in Canada, where as 3.6 is definitely pretty solid in the US. Is it just really hard to get into Canadian vet schools, or is there some type of grade conversion I'm missing out on here?

 

[Trematode]

Letter grades have a broader range here.
From UPEI (it is the same at my undergrad):

http://www.upei.ca/programsandcourses/regulation-10-course-work-evaluation

For example, an 80 is still an A here. In the states, it would be a B I do believe.

Saying I have B average would get me into vet school if I were American (B=80s), but not if I were Canadian (B=70s).

 

[Coquette22]

As someone else said, it also varies by school, just like in the USA. My overall GPA is lower than the GPA that got me into AVC, because AVC only looks at the pre-req grades, and those were the stronger parts of my overall degree GPA. OVC doesn't look at overall GPA either, just last two full time semesters and pre-req GPA. I'm not sure how the other schools treat it.

And before someone thinks that the difference in grade scale makes it easier in Canada (I've had people see the grade scale and tell me they wish they were in Canada because their grades would be so much better), I've heard from American classmates that it doesn't make much difference. Despite As being only an 85 or so, they were hard to get in my undergrad.

 

[Trematode]

90 or above was hard to get in my undergrad. Only one of my profs scaled (and it was like 2-4 points on test marks, based on what the top mark was in the class)

With AVC, you need a pre-req average in the mid-80s to really secure yourself an interview. You also don't need nearly much vet experience as you do in the states to be considered competitive.

I was told by a prof that all Canadian schools are around the same rigour as state schools.

 

[Escalla]

As someone who has applied to both U.S. and Canadian schools with grades from Canadian and American undergrad institutions, I have to say that it's about even. The Canadian schools that I apply to (UCVM/WCVM) don't require the GRE or MCAT though. They look at pre-reqs and your last two years/best year/last 30 credits (each school only has some of those). So your cumulative GPA really matters little.

As mentioned above, the U.S. puts a much greater emphasis on experience and extra-curriculars. Not to say they're not evaluated here, but not to the same level. I think a lot of that has to do with more applicants with equally good grades -- you have to draw the line somewhere.

I was accepted to Kansas State last year, but not to either of the Canadian schools. So it really varies.

 

[dovelover]

As mentioned above, the U.S. puts a much greater emphasis on experience and extra-curriculars. Not to say they're not evaluated here, but not to the same level. I think a lot of that has to do with more applicants with equally good grades -- you have to draw the line somewhere.

I was going to point that out but you beat me to it. Experience counted for only 10% (plus 5% other extracurriculars) of my application to AVC, the rest was grades and interview. So naturally you're going to need more competitive grades at a Canadian school. However you don't seem to need (from my perception) as much experience to get into a Canadian school as you do a US school. It's just two different ways of looking at applicants. I think the US system is a bit more forgiving, because they more equally weigh the different areas of the application, so a weakness in one area can be more easily made up for by strength in another.

 

[kittensmeow]

Thanks for all the responses! Based on what I've read and heard, I don't think Canada or US are options for me, unless I got lucky. One problem with OVC is that the pre-reqs need to be taken full-time, which isn't really feasible for me to do, as I work. Do most schools require pre-reqs to be taken full-time?

UCD Ireland sounds like a strong possibility. I do have UK citizenship, but that may not be of any use to me since I'm not a resident there. Does anyone know if any DVM programs consider Master's or professional degrees in their GPA calculations? It would sure help me if they did!

One other question: does anyone know what the job market is like for veterinarians in Canada? Going international would be a huge investment which I'd only be willing to make if securing a decent-paying position back home was a near-certainty upon graduation. But is it?

 

[Coquette22]

Have you asked someone at OVC about the full time thing? I know AVC will make allowances if you've got other stuff going on (full time job, etc).

 

[kittensmeow]

I should definitely inquire, so thanks for the suggestions. But still, it seems like a long shot...Canada is just so competitive!

 

[nichocj]

Thanks for all the responses! Based on what I've read and heard, I don't think Canada or US are options for me, unless I got lucky. One problem with OVC is that the pre-reqs need to be taken full-time, which isn't really feasible for me to do, as I work. Do most schools require pre-reqs to be taken full-time?

UCD Ireland sounds like a strong possibility. I do have UK citizenship, but that may not be of any use to me since I'm not a resident there. Does anyone know if any DVM programs consider Master's or professional degrees in their GPA calculations? It would sure help me if they did!

One other question: does anyone know what the job market is like for veterinarians in Canada? Going international would be a huge investment which I'd only be willing to make if securing a decent-paying position back home was a near-certainty upon graduation. But is it?

I'm in the same boat as you..... OVC would be the only school I can apply too, but I know realistically I would never be accepted.... soo I have applied overseas.

I also have UK citizenship, but like you residency is an issue, I think no matter what way you slice it I will have to pay international fees. But UK citizenship wont matter for UCD anyway as they aren't part of the UK (they are EU)

as for job prospects, i'm not sure, have you considered staying in the UK? That's an option since you have citizenship, and it's my plan 🙂

 

[kittensmeow]

I'm in the same boat as you..... OVC would be the only school I can apply too, but I know realistically I would never be accepted.... soo I have applied overseas.

I also have UK citizenship, but like you residency is an issue, I think no matter what way you slice it I will have to pay international fees. But UK citizenship wont matter for UCD anyway as they aren't part of the UK (they are EU)

as for job prospects, i'm not sure, have you considered staying in the UK? That's an option since you have citizenship, and it's my plan 🙂

I haven't considered staying in the UK, mostly because of family here in Canada, but I'd also be a bit concerned about job opportunities and cost of living. As difficult as the economy and job market is right now in Canada, based on everything I've read things are much worse in the UK. But perhaps it's a great place for veterinarians; I really don't know.

What schools have you applied to?

 

[nichocj]

I applied to Nottingham, Bristol, UCD and Glasgow

Rejected from Bristol post interview, rejected from Nottingham I have an interview with Glasgow on monday (luckily they are coming to toronto, so I will have a face to face interview rather than a phone interview, which I had with Bristol), and I have yet to hear from UCD...... But the tuition at UCD is over $200,000 CAD sooooo i don't think it will be an option, and it's expensive to live there

 

[mas185]

One other question: does anyone know what the job market is like for veterinarians in Canada? Going international would be a huge investment which I'd only be willing to make if securing a decent-paying position back home was a near-certainty upon graduation. But is it?

From what I understand Canada's got the best job market for vets at the minute ... They actually need more vets than they have (the rates like 1.2 or 1.4), where as the US and UK are like 0.7-0.8 etc.

 

[Coquette22]

From what I understand Canada's got the best job market for vets at the minute ... They actually need more vets than they have (the rates like 1.2 or 1.4), where as the US and UK are like 0.7-0.8 etc.

Out of curiousity, where'd you find those numbers? I've been looking all over for some sort of statistics for Canada.

 

[Escalla]

Out of curiousity, where'd you find those numbers? I've been looking all over for some sort of statistics for Canada.

I second this. There are a lot of job postings on the ABVMA website, but I don't think looking at that is an accurate view of the current state of the industry. I haven't been able to find anything yet.

 

[mas185]

Out of curiousity, where'd you find those numbers? I've been looking all over for some sort of statistics for Canada.

Ugh I definitely read it in an article last summer and thought to myself, well if I can't find a job at home I'll just go live with my dad's family in Canada, maybe I'll have better luck there! haha. I'm 95% sure it was in an article on VIN, but I was just searching there now and I couldn't find it again. I will do a more detailed search for you later and see if I can find it. But I know the study was recent (like 2011). I do remember it was definitely an article and a reputable source. I'm sorry I can't remember the details off the top of my head!! I'll keep looking though.

 

[Coquette22]

I wasn't questioning the validity, just curious where you found them. 🙂 It matches what I perceive, but I don't know a ton of new grads, so I'm not sure what their experience is. Service Canada says the job outlook is good, but doesn't give any numbers. 🙄

 

[mas185]

I wasn't questioning the validity, just curious where you found them. 🙂 It matches what I perceive, but I don't know a ton of new grads, so I'm not sure what their experience is. Service Canada says the job outlook is good, but doesn't give any numbers. 🙄

Haha I know I just am so annoyed I can't find it now!!

 

[Trilt]

Man, so if I can't get a job in screwed up US I can fall back on my Canadian citizenship? Awesome. 😛

 

[Sheepjes]

Hi everyone! As a Canadian who was unable to get into my 1 school of choice also (WCVM), and looked for other options, I thought I should pipe up and give you my 2 cents. Really sorry in advance for such a long post!!

I had heard of Ross and St George's, but a vet mentor encouraged me to look into St Matthew's University (SMU) on Grand Cayman when I was looking for alternate school choices. Their application process involved looking at me holistically, not just based on my GPA or GRE scores, which was beneficial to me since my undergrad GPA wasn't necessarily "stellar". I was able to give my story and reasoning, and since I had been out of school for 3 years and went back to take some electives, I was able to show my improvement.

I can tell you that I have zero regrets for not applying to the US or the UK. Here are some of the benefits I have found with SMU:

We are on a trimester system, studying year-round: we study a total of 28 months on the island, followed by 1 year in the US or Canada for clinics. So we get somewhat fast-tracked. Beats applying to Canadian schools for 3 years running being told to go back to undergrad to bring up my GPA, while admission requirements continually fluctuate.

Our class sizes are small (I have 10 other people in my class, but this varies - the class ahead of me has closer to 20 students). This is a bonus in my estimation because I get one-on-one with each and every professor, and they have an open-door policy (even if you aren't in their class yet - they will get to know you!). Without a doubt it also poses challenges being amongst your peers seeing them day after day in such a small group, but let me tell you - it helps you to develop your interpersonal skills and your patience 🙂 I've also made many life-long friends. I consider them my "island family".

Cost-wise, you're looking at about $20k/trimester, which includes tuition and living expenses. So this is not really much more costly (and can be cheaper) than going to US schools, and certainly cheaper than going overseas. Unfortunately, there is no financial help available except through personal loans, so this is a challenge for many (most) students. This may also be an issue studying overseas, I'm not sure.

SMU has contracts with 9 US schools and 2 Canadian schools for clinics, so in a sense we get somewhat of a choice on where we want our clinical experience to be. I think of this as a great opportunity to network!

Another plus is that MARVET (Marine Veterinary Medicine Program) is hosted at SMU each July/August! If you don't know much about it, I really encourage you to check it out, especially if you are interested in exotics or marine vetmed! As students we get a SIGNIFICANT discount to participate, either as a credit course, or just for fun. The only caveat is that you volunteer on a committee (student volunteers have a huge impact on the program running smoothly). More networking with top vets and experts in the industry, as well as other students. We get a lot of hands-on with exotics/marine life in general, like turtles, various birds, stingrays, iguanas...

Finally, we do have a number of visiting professors (VPs) for specialty courses. Some may find this a downside, as we get courses scheduled in accelerated blocks during some trimesters, but ultimately you get a variety of talent from a number of schools across the US and Canada - lots of knowledge to tap into, and contacts for later.

Since we aren't accredited, one thing to consider is that you have to take the ECFVG (if you plan on working in Canada or some states), or take the PAVE. I will be going the ECFVG route. Speaking to SMU alum who have gone that way, they felt very prepared for the exam.

If you'd like more specific information, or have other questions, I'm happy to share! Sorry again for the long post.