Easy FM residencies?

[Burnermed]

OK guys....Anyone know of residency programs in/near Chicago that are easy? Like 50-60 hours a week max?

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[deleted1064759]

All of them?

Probably more hours on inpatient months.

 

[Chelsea FC]

OK guys....Anyone know of residency programs in/near Chicago that are easy? Like 50-60 hours a week max?

Haha I love how you think!!

 

[Chibucks15]

Most of the residencies outside of psych and maybe PMR will be pushing up towards the 70ish hour mark. "Easy" residency doesn't really exist, hence why its called residency. Especially in a bigger city you'll definitely be working simply due to increased patient load alone. FM residents where I went to med school in a tiny city were up close to 70/80 hrs on inpatient. Same with where I used to work (and that was near/in Chicago). If you go into residency thinking itll be "easy", You're gonna get burned

 

[odyssey2]

Most of the residencies outside of psych and maybe PMR will be pushing up towards the 70ish hour mark. "Easy" residency doesn't really exist, hence why its called residency. Especially in a bigger city you'll definitely be working simply due to increased patient load alone. FM residents where I went to med school in a tiny city were up close to 70/80 hrs on inpatient. Same with where I used to work (and that was near/in Chicago). If you go into residency thinking itll be "easy", You're gonna get burned

Path, rads and derm don’t get close to 70 hours either

 

[Osteosaur]

now these are the important questions

 

[Burnermed]

Most of the residencies outside of psych and maybe PMR will be pushing up towards the 70ish hour mark. "Easy" residency doesn't really exist, hence why its called residency. Especially in a bigger city you'll definitely be working simply due to increased patient load alone. FM residents where I went to med school in a tiny city were up close to 70/80 hrs on inpatient. Same with where I used to work (and that was near/in Chicago). If you go into residency thinking itll be "easy", You're gonna get burned

I mean I dont think it will be easy as in totally easy....but I'm trying to find one thats the least difficult I guess. Like I know to avoid Loyola. It's wrong to ask someone to work 70-80 hours a week, and if I can avoid it I want to try as hard as I can.

 

[cj_cregg]

All of them?

Probably more hours on inpatient months.

Where are you in your training? Plenty of FM residencies routinely work 80 hr weeks.

OP, your best way to find this info will probably be to look at the websites of the residencies to see how much inpatient time they have or talk to the current residents (are you attending the AAFP conference this weekend? or during interview season as well since it sounds like you have a strong interest in staying in Chicago and would likely apply to these programs regardless).

That said, if you're planning on doing anything beyond bread and butter outpatient primary care, I think those longer hours are often necessary to get the training you need to be comfortable with more complex patients or any "extra" stuff you may want to do (OB, inpatient, etc).

 

[Burnermed]

Where are you in your training? Plenty of FM residencies routinely work 80 hr weeks.

OP, your best way to find this info will probably be to look at the websites of the residencies to see how much inpatient time they have or talk to the current residents (are you attending the AAFP conference this weekend? or during interview season as well since it sounds like you have a strong interest in staying in Chicago and would likely apply to these programs regardless).

That said, if you're planning on doing anything beyond bread and butter outpatient primary care, I think those longer hours are often necessary to get the training you need to be comfortable with more complex patients or any "extra" stuff you may want to do (OB, inpatient, etc).

I'm in a medical school in chicago now. Also I'm looking into the AAFP conference now. I hadn't heard of it. Besides getting my letters of rec, I'm just starting to look at residency stuff now.

 

[qwerty89]

 

[Burnermed]

As a cautionary tale? I saw that this morning too. I feel like he's just nervous to practice alone. It sounds like he reached all his milestones. Also It's not that i'm lazy. I'm willing to study and work, and I want to do a good job. I'm just tired of watching everyone live their lives and seeing everything pass me by. I want to add some balance back. Working 50-60 hours a week is a lot compared to other professions. If I can't find that in any residency, then I guess I'm stuck. But if theres a middle ground I hope to find it.

 

[Chelsea FC]

As a cautionary tale? I saw that this morning too. I feel like he's just nervous to practice alone. It sounds like he reached all his milestones. Also It's not that i'm lazy. I'm willing to study and work, and I want to do a good job. I'm just tired of watching everyone live their lives and seeing everything pass me by. I want to add some balance back. Working 50-60 hours a week is a lot compared to other professions. If I can't find that in any residency, then I guess I'm stuck. But if theres a middle ground I hope to find it.

OP don’t let them shame you. It’s a culture in medicine which normally leads to burn out which lets us feel if we aren’t giving your 150% then we are being lazy. Honestly you will be better off in life with the type of thinking in your original question. Work smart not hard. Doing PM&R and looking forward to a chiller residency life so I can start a fam early and enjoy life during my early training.

 

[djiboutiman]

FREIDA allows you to filter by average hours worked, although it isn’t always accurate and programs could provide underestimates. It looks like there are multiple FM programs in the Chicago area that average under 60 hours/week and a couple that are even under 50 hours/week. If you expand your location preference I’m sure you could only apply to programs that work under 60. Ain’t no shame in wanting a better quality of life in residency.

 

[7331poas]

Most of the residencies outside of psych and maybe PMR will be pushing up towards the 70ish hour mark. "Easy" residency doesn't really exist, hence why its called residency. Especially in a bigger city you'll definitely be working simply due to increased patient load alone. FM residents where I went to med school in a tiny city were up close to 70/80 hrs on inpatient. Same with where I used to work (and that was near/in Chicago). If you go into residency thinking itll be "easy", You're gonna get burned

Nah, one of our community FM residencies work a crazy low number of hours. Clinic volume is really low. Not abnormal for residents on my rotation to have 7 patients in a day.

Definitely programs like this out there in the community setting.

 

[DO2015CA]

As a cautionary tale? I saw that this morning too. I feel like he's just nervous to practice alone. It sounds like he reached all his milestones. Also It's not that i'm lazy. I'm willing to study and work, and I want to do a good job. I'm just tired of watching everyone live their lives and seeing everything pass me by. I want to add some balance back. Working 50-60 hours a week is a lot compared to other professions. If I can't find that in any residency, then I guess I'm stuck. But if theres a middle ground I hope to find it.

The trade off is experience for time. I’m in agreement that we shouldn’t work ourselves to death. The older generation likes to go on and on about duty hours and how they lived in the hospital during residency. They hold it as a part of their superiority complex. Newer physicians are just as competent as them despite having duty hours. There will be diminishing returns for hours worked and knowledge gained. But I’m not sure we even know what that number is realistically. 50-60 is probably fine if the resident is using that time wisely. I don’t think an extra 10-20h/wk in residency would make a difference in an unmotivated resident.

 

[DO2015CA]

Nah, one of our community FM residencies work a crazy low number of hours. Clinic volume is really low. Not abnormal for residents on my rotation to have 7 patients in a day.

Definitely programs like this out there in the community setting.

7 in a full day? As a senior resident?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Nah, one of our community FM residencies work a crazy low number of hours. Clinic volume is really low. Not abnormal for residents on my rotation to have 7 patients in a day.

Definitely programs like this out there in the community setting.

I would not advise attending a program like that.

 

[Osteosaur]

What is a good way, on interview, to ask these questions? Like obvious you want a balance between good workload and good training/rotations/volume. should I be asking "How many patients per day?" and what is a good volume that is not overwhelming?

 

[DO2015CA]

What is a good way, on interview, to ask these questions? Like obvious you want a balance between good workload and good training/rotations/volume. should I be asking "How many patients per day?" and what is a good volume that is not overwhelming?

Ask residents about average work hours. You can frame it as a wellness question.

 

[ciestar]

Nah, one of our community FM residencies work a crazy low number of hours. Clinic volume is really low. Not abnormal for residents on my rotation to have 7 patients in a day.

Definitely programs like this out there in the community setting.

I do this or more in a half day… ouch

 

[ciestar]

I work an average of 50-60. It isnt that bad. I feel lucky. Inpatient is its own beast but that isnt the entire year

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Ask residents about average work hours. You can frame it as a wellness question.

Or as a "I want to get all the clinic experience I can get".

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I work an average of 50-60. It isnt that bad. I feel lucky. Inpatient is its own beast but that isnt the entire year

Yeah that's FM most places. Inpatient months its 80 hour weeks (or really close). Otherwise, its more 8-5ish M-F.

 

[Isoval]

I work an average of 50-60. It isnt that bad. I feel lucky. Inpatient is its own beast but that isnt the entire year

all I’m hearing is I should do FM instead of IM

 

[Chelsea FC]

all I’m hearing is I should do FM instead of IM

if its a toss up then yeah prob.

 

[ciestar]

all I’m hearing is I should do FM instead of IM

The idea of inpatient almost the entire year… i couldnt do it. I love pulm/cc so too bad for that

 

[aafisahar]

easy residency = dangerous doctor

I'm a subspecialist and moonlight as a hospitalist and I've seen these new graduates from podunk residencies and they are frankly dangerous.

 

[Chads2]

We all have reasons for choosing what we choose, but if you want to keep your hours down, find an FM residency that is Opposed, which means they also have IM in the same program. Keeps your inpatient months down.

 

[Chelsea FC]

easy residency = dangerous doctor

I'm a subspecialist and moonlight as a hospitalist and I've seen these new graduates from podunk residencies and they are frankly dangerous.

This is the attitude that leads to the toxic culture in medicine

 

[Osteosaur]

Ask residents about average work hours. You can frame it as a wellness question.

And what daily patient load would you say hits that sweet spot where you are learning, but not miserable?

 

[aafisahar]

This is the attitude that leads to the toxic culture in medicine

It also keeps patients out of the morgue

 

[DO2015CA]

And what daily patient load would you say hits that sweet spot where you are learning, but not miserable?

Honestly no clue. It’s going to be dependent on individual residents. There are some that 80h isn’t enough but I don’t think any number would be. Then there are some that I would say 50-60 would probably be enough. I would probably say <50 (consistently) regardless of the strength of resident would be too little. You still have to learn by doing no matter how smart you are.

 

[Chelsea FC]

It also keeps patients out of the morgue

Yeah, this response also part of the culture that have docs killing themselves and hating their life. Work to the bone or your patients going to do, don’t take that vacation or mental health day or people gonna die. Give me a break. It’s all part of the toxic culture. OP looking for residency where he won’t be overworked, nowhere he said he doesn’t want to be good at what he does.

 

[aafisahar]

OP looking for residency where he won’t be overworked, nowhere he said he doesn’t want to be good at what he does.

Part of being good is being worked hard. You can't be a great doctor without being put through the paces. It's part and parcel of being a physician. If you want to play big league ball, then you need your reps.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yeah, this response also part of the culture that have docs killing themselves and hating their life. Work to the bone or your patients going to do, don’t take that vacation or mental health day or people gonna die. Give me a break. It’s all part of the toxic culture. OP looking for residency where he won’t be overworked, nowhere he said he doesn’t want to be good at what he does.

No FM program that I'm aware of is so harsh that its going to cause serious issues with mental health. If you go looking for an easy FM program, you're likely going to find a weak one.

 

[guytakingboards]

Yeah, this response also part of the culture that have docs killing themselves and hating their life. Work to the bone or your patients going to do, don’t take that vacation or mental health day or people gonna die. Give me a break. It’s all part of the toxic culture. OP looking for residency where he won’t be overworked, nowhere he said he doesn’t want to be good at what he does.

I echo other people sentiments that reps/difficulty in residency matters. Medicine is a unique job; one that does require a certain commitment. From my residency program, I can unequivocally say there's correlation between effort expended and competency. The people who put in minimal effort were worse doctors.

To your last point, he doesn't have the experience and perspective to know what "good" is. No one says "i'm okay with being ****ty or mediocre". A lot of below-average people aren't self-aware to know what it takes to be good. The people on this board are telling him being good takes reps; nothing about that is toxic.

 

[Ganon]

So far this thread has equated quantity with quality, and that surprises me with its lack of nuance.

also, doesn’t the AAFP have a minimum clinic encounters metric you have to graduate, and isn’t it impossible to hit it seeing only 7 patients per day?

 

[aafisahar]

So far this thread has equated quantity with quality, and that surprises me with its lack of nuance.

also, doesn’t the AAFP have a minimum clinic encounters metric you have to graduate, and isn’t it impossible to hit it seeing only 7 patients per day?

Quantity is quality. The only way to get good is getting your reps in.

 

[FutureSurgical]

Path, rads and derm don’t get close to 70 hours either

Only taking a look at last year's Rads spreadsheet, there are some programs that work their rads residents to the bone.

From what I've gathered on here, reddit, and talking to M4's is you have to ask the residents. Either ask during the interview or, as some M4's have done, get a resident's # and ask post-interview. Not sure how to go about that specifically. However, you really get to know the program for what it is beyond the powerpoints that try to sell the program to you by asking the residents.

 

[mrbreakfast]

Agree with others that you want a rigorous residency. You have X years of residency to learn as much as you can before you're on your own. I didn't appreciate this until residency, but there is huge variation in the quality of care provided by physicians out there, which will be driven home when your team accepts a transfer from a community hospital who got 40 of lasix and a gram of rocephin for septic shock and ARDS. There are people out there who don't know what they're doing, and you don't want to become one of them.

Path, rads and derm don’t get close to 70 hours either

Let's not forget EM, which can average 30 hours a week on-service. Of course, EM also proves the point that the specific number of hours doesn't tell the whole tale.

Not sure how to go about that specifically.

Just straight up ask during the pre-interview dinner. Most residents won't have an issue telling you; if they do, it might be a big number. If residents are good about logging their hours, they can easily tell you the exact number of hours they worked that year; e.g. I've worked 247 hours since July 1st this year. If someone balks at whatever number you give them, then so be it. If you're trying to do something like surgery or OBGYN, this advice might not apply.

 

[Chelsea FC]

Agree with others that you want a rigorous residency. You have X years of residency to learn as much as you can before you're on your own. I didn't appreciate this until residency, but there is huge variation in the quality of care provided by physicians out there, which will be driven home when your team accepts a transfer from a community hospital who got 40 of lasix and a gram of rocephin for septic shock and ARDS. There are people out there who don't know what they're doing, and

Love the community hospital insult. Alot of docs at big academic centers view direct patient care as secondary to their main interest which is academic medicine compared to their community hospital counterparts that are embedded within the community they serve.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Community vs university misadventures? Sounds like a good thread to start. I will echo what others have said about people looking for cush residencies. Medicine is an ocean of topics and experiences. The greater number of case, the greater exposure to what's in the ocean. Why not see as much as you can while on someone else's malpractice insurance? Those who want the easiest residency are clearly the doctors I would choose to take care of my Mother in Law. As for university docs, I could write a book about the paragons of mediocrity I witnessed while at university. It goes both ways.

 

[mrbreakfast]

Love the community hospital insult.

Not an insult to community hospitals, well aware that there are many excellent community institutions and have spent time at some. But I think every major hospital - academic or community - has at least one small hospital in their catchment where all the disaster transfers seem to come from.

 

[Splenda88]

It also keeps patients out of the morgue

How many NP and PA works with or for you?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So far this thread has equated quantity with quality, and that surprises me with its lack of nuance.

also, doesn’t the AAFP have a minimum clinic encounters metric you have to graduate, and isn’t it impossible to hit it seeing only 7 patients per day?

Not the AAFP. Shooting for the minimum is not what I would recommend for residency.