Eating Your Patients -- The Veterinarian's Dillema

[Prosthesis]

This is my first post here, so I'm a little shy, but something has been really weighing on my mind, so I'll give it a go

A week ago I had dinner with my family at a steakhouse to celebrate getting into Cornell, and when my meal arrived my brother jokingly stole my plate away and said, "Hey, now that you're going to become a vet you'll have to go vegan." When I asked him why, he laughed, "Doctors don't eat their patients."

It was just a joke, but those words have been gnawing at me ever since. Like many others, my dream to become a vet is founded in a love for animals, and a desire to stop their suffering and better their lives. Why, when I want to devote my life to helping animals, am I contributing to the horrific factory farming system, which many of us know firsthand is nothing short of animal concentration camps? Why, after falling in love with chickens when volunteering at an animal sanctuary, am I buying commercial eggs from chickens that live in atrocious conditions, wasting away in living spaces smaller than my iPad, while the unwanted male chicks at the hatchery are ground up alive? Why do I pour milk on my cereal every morning despite knowing the hell that dairy cows go through? Why am I supporting the abuse of billions of US animals by eating factory farm meat, when I am so passionate about helping animals?

I feel like such a hypocrite, and am so disgusted with myself. What is killing me the most is the mere fact that I never even questioned any of this before. When I saw abused animals brought into clinics, I felt so angry. "How could anyone ever do this to an animal? How could anyone be so cruel, so inhumane" I always asked myself, and yet hours later would stick a McDonald's burger in my mouth for lunch. I guess food culture is like any other part of culture: so ingrained into our daily lives from birth that we never stop to question why, we just do it subconsciously, like breathing. I always thought that it's natural for those higher on the food chain to eat and use those lower on it, that it was the way of the universe, and never stopped to think how by viewing pigs, cows, and chickens as products on a supply line, without feelings or emotions, we've developed an industry of extreme cruelty and exploitation.

I know everyone goes into veterinary medicine for different reasons, and some are interested in the science rather than having any emotional attachment towards animals, but I feel the majority of us are here because of a deep love for animals, and I can't be the only one that's had these thoughts. What does everyone think? How can we devote our lives to saving the lives of animals, and easing their suffering, if with every bite we are contributing to the inhumane suffering and slaughter of billions of animals annually? The general public is so far removed from any animal other than companion ones in their daily lives that it's easy for them to view cows, pigs, and poultry as mindless objects with no personality, emotions, or capacity for suffering, but as aspiring veterinarians how can we be so detached? After hundreds of hours with animals, learning how complex their personalities are, how they feel pain and suffer, how can we so easily turn a blind eye?

Ahhhhhh, maybe I should've just gone into human medicine like my mom wanted, and I would have never had this issue, lol. Doctors don't have to worry about the ethics of eating their patients

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[Camelidcrazy]

A few months ago this topic was discussed ad nauseam. I would search for that thread. Most of the regular posters made their thoughts on the topic very clear.

 

[BGoodl]

I have often thought about this as well, but there are alternatives to going vegan. (Kudos to those who have the willpower to go vegan) It seems from your post that you are opposed to a specific type of industry where animals are being maltreated, not the fact that animals are being consumed. There are ways to make more informed decisions about what you are buying, even if it costs a little more. For example, there is a turkey farm down the road from my house that sells turkeys directly to the public (mostly around Thanksgiving time). We can view their conditions, and it is far from the factory farming atmosphere. You can also buy things like grass fed beef from specialty markets. So one option is to seek out this specific type of meat. There is a niche market for people like you.

Secondly I urge you to read some scientific studies on the way farming has been developed in this country. A lot of the seemingly uncomfortable conditions have been heavily researched, and found to be beneficial. (Although I agree some are downright terrible)

Lastly, if you get the opportunity, visit companies that practice vertically integrated farming. I had the same picture in my head of the poultry industry, but last year I got to visit a Mountaire hatchery, broiler grow out facility, and processing plant. Let me tell you- I was impressed across the board. They had very clean facilities and really seemed to keep animal welfare in mind. Just because something is being done on a large scale doesn't make it bad. Often such large companies have the resources to really treat their animals well because they are in the spotlight.

Just my opinion, I hope that helps. It is an important issue to think about.

 

[cowgirla]

I'm not entirely sure if this post is looking for answers or designed to be inflammatory, but I'll answer anyway because someone out there is probably thinking the same thing, for real.


Personally, I have no issues with "eating my patients." I have an issue with my food being mistreated, neglected, abused, or suffering before it gets to my plate. I want healthy food. That's where being a vet comes in. We have a duty to prevent animal suffering, whether it is Fluffy McFooFoo or a beef cow in a feedlot. There are hundreds of roles a veterinarian can play in the production industry and in ensuring food safety.

I will admit that food animal medicine is not for everyone, just as eating meat or being a vegetarian is not for everyone. It's a personal choice that YOU need to make - and one you need to be okay with. Don't let anyone guilt you into something you aren't comfortable with.


Also, there is a HUGE difference between an abused dog and the average animal on the food chain. I've seen pigs and cattle slaughtered. There is no pain. There is no wailing, screeching, moaning, groaning, twitching in agony or anything like that. They don't even seem to know what is happening. There is no abuse involved in a healthy, well fed animal going to the processing plant. If you don't like factory farming, take a role of improving it and ensuring the health and safety of those animals. While you are doing that, stick to eating local beef from your local farmer's market, where you personally know the animal and its health history

(And honestly, if you decide you want to be a small animal vet, you probably won't be eating your patients!)


More specific points:
1) Chick maceration is an AVMA approved humane method when implemented properly. The chicks do not feel pain in the process, they do not suffer. It is a VERY fast process.

2) While there are aspects of production that I disagree with, for the most part, all of the producers I have seen have cared about their animals well being. Sick animals in poor conditions don't produce well.

3) Dairy cow hell? I've been to a few large dairies. Those producers/managers/staff know every animal by number and name. You ask about cow 09090232, and they will say "Oh, Bessie? She's been great. Six years ago we treated her for mastitis. Dropped her calf a few weeks ago, has been eating well and producing 19.09343 gallons of milk a day." It's more than a business to them. Happy healthy cows produce more milk. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not the majority. And as a vet, you can make a difference.

Questioning is a good thing. Don't believe everything you see/read in the media with re: to food production. Go see it for yourself. And I'll guess that the majority of vets are NOT vegetarians, although there are certainly plenty of vegetarians and vegans. Nothing wrong with any of the choices, no matter the reasons, as long as it works for you.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Our job as veterinarians is not to dictate morality. Our job is to provide the best care possible for animals in every walk of life, including food animals. It is not turning a "blind eye", it is providing the best healthcare we can even if it is for animals undergoing things we personally do not agree with.

I won't go on a huge rant about this following point....but the media and animal rights organizations love to inflate how terrible the food animal industry is. Are there pockets of badness? Absolutely. Are some industries worse than others? Sure. But painting the entire industry as unspeakably cruel is false.

If you are passionate about helping animals, use that passion to help food animals live better lives with better overall health.

You could make the same argument for humans doctors. Now, this isn't a perfect example, but what I'm trying to get across is the idea of swallowing personal beliefs for the good of the patient: a doctor may be extremely against premarital sex, but they are still obligated to provide the best gynecological care possible for women who are having premarital sex (yes, yes, there is the whole refusing BC debate, but you see what I mean?). A doctor may be extremely morally against doing drugs, but when an sick addict shows up at the door, they are obligated to provide them with medical care. Etc.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I'm not entirely sure if this post is looking for answers or designed to be inflammatory, but I'll answer anyway because someone out there is probably thinking the same thing, for real.


Personally, I have no issues with "eating my patients." I have an issue with my food being mistreated, neglected, abused, or suffering before it gets to my plate. I want healthy food. That's where being a vet comes in. We have a duty to prevent animal suffering, whether it is Fluffy McFooFoo or a beef cow in a feedlot. There are hundreds of roles a veterinarian can play in the production industry and in ensuring food safety.

I will admit that food animal medicine is not for everyone, just as eating meat or being a vegetarian is not for everyone. It's a personal choice that YOU need to make - and one you need to be okay with. Don't let anyone guilt you into something you aren't comfortable with.


Also, there is a HUGE difference between an abused dog and the average animal on the food chain. I've seen pigs and cattle slaughtered. There is no pain. There is no wailing, screeching, moaning, groaning, twitching in agony or anything like that. They don't even seem to know what is happening. There is no abuse involved in a healthy, well fed animal going to the processing plant. If you don't like factory farming, take a role of improving it and ensuring the health and safety of those animals. While you are doing that, stick to eating local beef from your local farmer's market, where you personally know the animal and its health history

(And honestly, if you decide you want to be a small animal vet, you probably won't be eating your patients!)


More specific points:
1) Chick maceration is an AVMA approved humane method when implemented properly. The chicks do not feel pain in the process, they do not suffer. It is a VERY fast process.

2) While there are aspects of production that I disagree with, for the most part, all of the producers I have seen have cared about their animals well being. Sick animals in poor conditions don't produce well.

3) Dairy cow hell? I've been to a few large dairies. Those producers/managers/staff know every animal by number and name. You ask about cow 09090232, and they will say "Oh, Bessie? She's been great. Six years ago we treated her for mastitis. Dropped her calf a few weeks ago, has been eating well and producing 19.09343 gallons of milk a day." It's more than a business to them. Happy healthy cows produce more milk. I'm sure there are exceptions, but not the majority. And as a vet, you can make a difference.

Questioning is a good thing. Don't believe everything you see/read in the media with re: to food production. Go see it for yourself. And I'll guess that the majority of vets are NOT vegetarians, although there are certainly plenty of vegetarians and vegans. Nothing wrong with any of the choices, no matter the reasons, as long as it works for you.

Excellent post. In addition to dairies, I've also been to slaughterhouses (we go there to collect tissues for teaching purposes sometimes) and can tell you that a captive bolt to the head followed by quick exsanguination is one of the most painless ways to go.
Sick animals do not produce. Stressed animal get sick and are discarded from the line (ie loss to the producer). It is in their best interest to keep their animals healthy.

Now, I have more reservations with the poultry industry, but most meat and dairy operations are not nearly what PETA, etc want you to think they are like. But everyone loves a big story. The bad apples that are splashed across the front page are NOT, I repeat NOT representative of the vast majority of farms.

I'm curious as to your opinion on animal research if you feel so strongly about the food animal industry?

I highly suggest you read this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=796964

It contains an excellent discussion about production medicine.

 

[adams30]

Hi, I can understand where you are coming from because I once felt the same way several years ago.

I agree that all animals should be respected and treated well. I am about to graduate with a degree in Animal Science so after learning all about how animal agriculture works, why we do the practices that we do, working on farms, and working with large animal vets, my perception of animal agriculture changed.

As the others said, if an animal is mistreated they won't produce well, so it wouldn't make logical sense for a farmer to mistreat animals purposely.

As for organizations like PETA, they exaggerate claims and distribute false information. I remember seeing a quote on how animals should be respected from Temple Grandin in one of their flyers once. The ironic thing is that Temple Grandin is famous for designing slaughter house designs that are humane for animals.

One dilemma that agriculture faces is that we have a growing population and not enough resources to feed everyone. Because of advances in technology, we are able to feed more people with fewer resources than we did 60 years ago. Large scale farming is much more efficient for this.

We also must remember that animal agriculture will always advance and we will continue to improve what we already have. Those who work in animal ag respect our animals and want to give them the best care and quality of life possible. It is unfortunate that there are a small handful of bad eggs and those get publicized. People who abuse their animals should not even be in business, and their businesses can get shut down if they are caught. But my point is to assure you that a vast majority of farmers care deeply about their animals and we do everything we can to keep them healthy, producing well, have a good quality life, and are able to provide nutritious and affordable food to a growing population.

 

[wolfspeaker]

This is my first post here, so I'm a little shy, but something has been really weighing on my mind, so I'll give it a go

A week ago I had dinner with my family at a steakhouse to celebrate getting into Cornell, and when my meal arrived my brother jokingly stole my plate away and said, "Hey, now that you're going to become a vet you'll have to go vegan." When I asked him why, he laughed, "Doctors don't eat their patients."

It was just a joke, but those words have been gnawing at me ever since. Like many others, my dream to become a vet is founded in a love for animals, and a desire to stop their suffering and better their lives. Why, when I want to devote my life to helping animals, am I contributing to the horrific factory farming system, which many of us know firsthand is nothing short of animal concentration camps? Why, after falling in love with chickens when volunteering at an animal sanctuary, am I buying commercial eggs from chickens that live in atrocious conditions, wasting away in living spaces smaller than my iPad, while the unwanted male chicks at the hatchery are ground up alive? Why do I pour milk on my cereal every morning despite knowing the hell that dairy cows go through? Why am I supporting the abuse of billions of US animals by eating factory farm meat, when I am so passionate about helping animals?

I feel like such a hypocrite, and am so disgusted with myself. What is killing me the most is the mere fact that I never even questioned any of this before. When I saw abused animals brought into clinics, I felt so angry. "How could anyone ever do this to an animal? How could anyone be so cruel, so inhumane" I always asked myself, and yet hours later would stick a McDonald's burger in my mouth for lunch. I guess food culture is like any other part of culture: so ingrained into our daily lives from birth that we never stop to question why, we just do it subconsciously, like breathing. I always thought that it's natural for those higher on the food chain to eat and use those lower on it, that it was the way of the universe, and never stopped to think how by viewing pigs, cows, and chickens as products on a supply line, without feelings or emotions, we've developed an industry of extreme cruelty and exploitation.

I know everyone goes into veterinary medicine for different reasons, and some are interested in the science rather than having any emotional attachment towards animals, but I feel the majority of us are here because of a deep love for animals, and I can't be the only one that's had these thoughts. What does everyone think? How can we devote our lives to saving the lives of animals, and easing their suffering, if with every bite we are contributing to the inhumane suffering and slaughter of billions of animals annually? The general public is so far removed from any animal other than companion ones in their daily lives that it's easy for them to view cows, pigs, and poultry as mindless objects with no personality, emotions, or capacity for suffering, but as aspiring veterinarians how can we be so detached? After hundreds of hours with animals, learning how complex their personalities are, how they feel pain and suffer, how can we so easily turn a blind eye?

Ahhhhhh, maybe I should've just gone into human medicine like my mom wanted, and I would have never had this issue, lol. Doctors don't have to worry about the ethics of eating their patients

Maybe it wasn't your intention, but this whole post sounds like a passive-aggressive attack on Veterinarians that eat meat(or anyone else for that matter). It just sounds well rehearsed and like you've said it over and over. Just how it sounds to me. Like I said, maybe not your intention. I dunno.

Cowgirla and WTF said it very well. It sounds to me like the only experience you have in the Food Animal world(according to what you posted) is what is portrayed in the media by groups like PETA and HSUS. Something to keep in mind when seeing their videos/reading their articles: They are TRYING to portray the industry in a negative aspect. Yes, there are farms where practices are outdated and animals are abused. But that is not the majority. That's where the Veterinarian comes in. Educating our clients on proper handling/care and assisting in finding happy mediums between animal care/comfort and finances/economy.

How do I justify working with those animals that I will be eating? Because then I know that they had the best care possible.Those animals are going to be consumed either way. There will never be a time when animals are not used for human consumption.

I have worked in the Food Industry on many different farms for over 15 years. Swine, dairy, beef. I have never witnessed anything that the PETA videos portrayed. With the exception of carrying a dairy cow in the bucket of a loader. Again, something that IS humane that PETA tried to portray as an evil practice. There is nothing inhumane about that procedure if done properly. (Everything always hinges on something being done properly. Employees need to be trained and the Veterinarian assists with that) The cow had injured herself(or a neighbor kicked her) and could not walk at all. She had to be moved to the hospital barn. 2 people cannot roll a dairy cow easily, to put the sling under her, who does not want to move! The most humane method is to put the bucket down next to her, one person stays on one side and the other drives the loader slowly forward. You roll the cow gently into the bucket and she is lifted and safely moved.

I find it interesting that they never show the whole video. Only the negative parts are shown/videotaped. I could make a video stating that all parents are evil and then show only the negative parts to prove it. But that doesn't show the whole picture.

One of the best sayings in the dairy world: A happy cow is a productive cow! An animal that is in pain, sick or starving, or is uncomfortable, will not produce. Plain and simple. They will not. And producers/farm owners know this. Therefor, it is in their best interest to treat their animals properly. Best nutrition. Reduced stress environment. Proper facilities and handling.

I am not saying going Vegetarian/Vegan is bad! I commend anyone that can actually do it, or even tries it. The human health aspect of it is reason enough, I think. If you do it properly, which many many people do not. I would never have the resources and patience/determination to go vegan. Vegatarian... maybe. But I'd rather not. Simply put, I like meat, what it does for my body and I do not have moral reservations about eating properly/humanely treated animals . The human body was designed to be able to eat plant AND animal. Meat/dairy is a readily available and easily digestible source of many nutrients we need.

I think everyone needs to be educated about the POSITIVE aspects of the Food Animal industry before they decide to flame it for what PETA has told them.

If you have questions about the Food Animal industry and practices, please post them. We will try to answer them as best we can, both from a Veterinarians view and a producers view.

(I apologize if this post sounds awkward, I am not very eloquent when it comes to writing. )

 

[Lissarae06]

Mmmmm steak. Meat tastes too good to not eat it.

For reals though, I agree with the above posters and I encourage you to go see the different industries for yourself. Visit with the producers, ask them questions about why they do the things they do (in a nice, respectful manner). Maybe you will learn something, see something you would like to work towards changing, etc.

 

[cowgirla]

Mmmmm steak. Meat tastes too good to not eat it.
.

One word: BACON

 

[adams30]

Cowgirla and WTF said it very well. It sounds to me like the only experience you have in the Food Animal world(according to what you posted) is what is portrayed in the media by groups like PETA and HSUS. Something to keep in mind when seeing their videos/reading their articles: They are TRYING to portray the industry in a negative aspect. Yes, there are farms where practices are outdated and animals are abused. But that is not the majority. That's where the Veterinarian comes in. Educating our clients on proper handling/care and assisting in finding happy mediums between animal care/comfort and finances/economy.

One of the best sayings in the dairy world: A happy cow is a productive cow! An animal that is in pain, sick or starving, or is uncomfortable, will not produce. Plain and simple. They will not. And producers/farm owners know this. Therefor, it is in their best interest to treat their animals properly. Best nutrition. Reduced stress environment. Proper facilities and handling.

Very true. I'm in a farm animal welfare class now and we go over these things.

I can watch a 5 min PETA video and find at least 20 false information statements in them.

And the whole education thing is important to keep farmers up to date on welfare issues. Fortunately from all farms I've been to, I've never seen a farmer abuse his/her animals.

 

[Jess Monster]

What does everyone think? How can we devote our lives to saving the lives of animals, and easing their suffering, if with every bite we are contributing to the inhumane suffering and slaughter of billions of animals annually?

I've always had a healthy understanding that life feeds on life. Everyone is entitled to their philosophical dilemmas, but based on my experiences, global travels, and years of study in animal sciences and public health, I see the great benefit that animal protein provides the world and while I don't always agree with the methods used in keeping and slaughtering animals, I understand that husbandry and welfare standards are constantly evolving.

To paint all large-scale animal production as "inhumane" or "exploitative" is to me a very narrow sentiment that fails to recognize that there are differences from one production unit to the next, but then again many in the "animal rights" camp are very black/white type people. To me there's no use arguing this topic with anyone who feels that any use of an animal is animal abuse. They're not receptive to discussion and they don't care about science or research. They are consumed with "feelings" and I put little value in people's emotions and feelings- they are subjective, unquantifiable, and terribly fickle.

Ahhhhhh, maybe I should've just gone into human medicine like my mom wanted, and I would have never had this issue, lol. Doctors don't have to worry about the ethics of eating their patients

They just have all kinds of other ethical issues to deal with that involve human beings, including vulnerable populations like children. I surely don't envy MD's.

 

[callie24]

As a commerical beef producer 1st, I am persuing a career in this field to continue to provide a safe, healthy, wholesome food source. I don't agree with animal abuse, but I also know and understand that those cases are a small % of unnder educated people that cause the issues. Each of us have our right to whatever we would like. To each their own!

 

[bunnity]

I worked at an SPCA right before vet school and I did stop eating meat because it felt weird to me personally to be working really hard all day to save lives and then go home and contribute to animals dying.

BUT that was just me, and what I needed to do to sleep at night. It's not super logical... I still take medication that was tested on animals, and I'm sitting on a leather couch right now. Just a personal decision. I think everyone has to decide for themselves whether to eat meat, or which types of farms to support (each has their merits depending on whether we are looking at human health vs. welfare vs. environment vs. cost), or a million other little decisions. I mean, if you are a dog and cat vet you are supporting the fact that those animals eat meat and that vet med relies on animal research.

When it comes to farming conditions, I think the truth lies in between what PETA is telling you and what super fired up farm defenders are telling you. And it's not the same in every farm. The only thing you can do is educate yourself (visit places, work places, talk to people in the field nonjudgmentally) and then make your own decisions.

 

[Jess Monster]

I am not saying going Vegetarian/Vegan is bad! I commend anyone that can actually do it, or even tries it. The human health aspect of it is reason enough, I think.

I wish it would stay in the "I'm doing this for my personal health" realm.

Unfortunatley, many of the "ethical" vegans I meet come off sounding incredibly smug. I find it hard to take anyone seriously who believes that DIET makes someone morally superior to anyone else. It's on par with religious fanaticism, and I'm not too keen on how that group tries to co-opt morality either.

I'm just a big old atheist omnivore, I guess.

I did have a wonderful salad with steak on it today and it was marvelously delicious. Possibly even magically delicious.

 

[hopefulinva]

If any of you follow Jeopardy, you'll know Betsy, the quirky red-head DVM/PhD student who borderline horrified Alex Trebec when he asked "So - you want to be a vet. I guess you like animals?" And her response was "Yes. They're cute AND delicious."

She's a classmate and a friend of mine, and though her response was tongue-in-cheek, it was pretty spot on.

I went in to vet school with a Biology degree and very limited animal science background, so I understand where you're coming from. I do. I have a lot of qualms with big industry agriculture for a lot of the same reasons you've listed.

But those are my own opinions on faults within an industry I admittedly know little about, and it has nothing to do with veterinary care. Food animal people go in to food animal medicine for the same reason small animal people go in to small animal medicine: they love working with those animals. Like all veterinarians, they ensure that their patients are receiving the care that they need to live a quality life. There's no difference, save small animal people likely won't be chowing down on cat steak when they get home - but hey, even that could depend on where they work globally.

I'm hoping your first year at vet school will open your eyes a bit. (Mine did.)



(PS: I'd drop the "I should have gone in to human medicine!" thought now, 'cus if you ever utter it aloud in front of your classmates, you're bound to piss some people off )

 

[wildcatj]

Meat/dairy is a readily available and easily digestible source of many nutrients we need.

Not for all of us! Thank god they make lactase pills.

 

[PetPony]

Not for all of us! Thank god they make lactase pills.

It always cheers my friends up when I tell them that they are normal because it's weird that humans can still digest milk when older.

 

[Minnerbelle]

Like cowgirla said, what you decide to do with your food/lifestyle is one that YOU have to figure out and learn to be comfortable with. You need to be able to justify it to yourself, and not let other people's OPINIONS about your choices bother you. I emphasized opinions because that is different from fact. Just because you've decided one way or another to be vegan or carnivorous, facts don't change. I think it's important to be comfortable and secure enough in your decision to be able to talk about these facts (which may support or not support your overall stance on the matter) without getting too defensive/offensive. Just because there are negative facts about food production, it doesn't mean that there aren't positive or neutral facts, and vice versa. Sometimes you'll get your facts wrong, and sometimes others will get their facts wrong. That's fine, and you should be able to keep incorporating new facts and ideas to keep reassessing your personal decisions.

I say that as someone who was vegetarian for 6 years and then changed my mind. The change to becoming a vegetarian and then back again to meat eating were both due to a combo of my values changing and my knowledge base changing.

 

[Coquette22]

Personally, I have no issues with "eating my patients." I have an issue with my food being mistreated, neglected, abused, or suffering before it gets to my plate. I want healthy food. That's where being a vet comes in. We have a duty to prevent animal suffering, whether it is Fluffy McFooFoo or a beef cow in a feedlot.

Quoted for truth. This sums up my position exactly.

 

[felinelvr44]

I struggle with these same concerns. For me, this led to becoming vegan. I really hope others don't view me as "smug" because I certainly don't feel or try to act smug. This was a solution to the moral dilema of eating and using animals for food that I personally felt comfortable with. I understand it is not the answer for everyone nor do I judge others that feel differently. In fact, at the SA clinic I work at, the vets didn't know I was vegan for 6+ months of working together (and that was with ordering food for lunch every week). I also live in an area where it is incredibly easy to be vegan and the health benefits are a nice added bonus.

My background has been mostly SA so I look forward to learning more about production animals in vet school. I shadowed briefly with a large animal vet and we visited two dairy farms one day. The first was atrocious. The animals were incredibly stressed out, the facility was run-down and poorly maintained, and it made me pretty sad. The second was completely different - the animals seemed happy and the facility was better in many ways. It was a very interesting dichotomy. I think it's true that they're not all bad but they aren't all good either. I was staying with my parents at the time and told them what I had seen that day. My dad was especially upset and ever since has chosen to get his milk directly from a farm that he knows treats their cows with respect. He gets to support a local business and his money goes to a farm that is more in line with his personal beliefs. I think overall, omnivore/vegetarian/vegan/etc. is a very personal decision. There are many ethical gray areas in veterinary medicine and we all have to decide for ourselves what we're comfortable with and what we're not.

 

[that redhead]

My own perspective has changed since I started vet school. I stopped eating pork during first year because I just can't get on board with how pigs are raised (mostly bred) commercially. I started buying free range eggs from a local producer because I disagree with how laying chickens are kept commercially. I continue to eat beef and chicken because I don't have nearly as much of a problem with their production system as with pork. I continue to eat dairy because, like cowgirla mentioned, I have seen some amazing dairies up here that treat their cows in a way that gels with how -I- think they should be treated. I still have no problem with the concept of raising an animal to eat it, though; your post suggests you may have a problem with that idea on its own. Not sure, but that's an important thing to distinguish in your mind.

I think that the most important thing during a time like this in your life is to first, educate yourself. (And no, PETA is not a good source.) Most likely you'll get the chance to visit places that produce animals for food while in vet school- GO on those farm tours and see for yourself. If you don't like it, don't support it with your consumer dollars but don't cram your beliefs down other people's throats, either. Understand the alternatives to what you're perceiving to be the commercial norm. Not all animals are raised in the traditional way- if you're okay with eating animals but not the traditional farming methods, find someone who raises their animals in a way that you agree with and go with them instead.

Bottom line- it's never as cut and dry as it seems. Take the time to understand how things are done and adjust your intake/consumerism to jive with your personal values.

 

[twelvetigers]

And don't let anyone else's opinions on the matter sway your feelings, especially people who don't really know anything about production (even your brother). Figure out how YOU feel about it, and go with that.

 

[wolfspeaker]

Not for all of us! Thank god they make lactase pills.

Yeah, Human adults that can still easily digest dairy are weird folk! They are mutants!

(I was speaking about all ages though, really. )

 

[Trematode]

I hope I am not a "smug" vegan as well.

It started off because of PETA (I was 14 when I heard about PETA and went vegetarian so I was young, ignorant and naive) but grew to be a lot more complex than that. Just to sum up how I feel:

I believe consumers should be aware of where their animal products are coming from and make decisions based on that. I lived in an area that had many small farms and the farmers were well respected by the community. If I were to buy meat or eggs, I would prefer to get it from farms I am familiar with. A lot of the animals were pasture raised and the products were organic (which is a bit better for health). The farmers and butchers take pride in what they do and you can tell that when you pick up a carton of eggs or want to know what cut of beef to get for dinner.

I have very little experience with large animals. Not because I did not want to get it. I just did not have the opportunity yet. Because of this, I am not comfortable with being a LA vet. I have other areas that I have more experience or interest in such as small animal, research and wildlife. Perhaps as I gain more experience, what I want to be might change.

One of the big reasons I went vegan is for health. I started a month ago and already seeing the benefits of what a vegan diet and exercise is doing to my body. I am increasing aware of what is going into my body. I wish the average person knew what was going into theirs too. Obesity-related diseases run in my family and that sucks.

 

[LadyHogger]

I would just like to say that farmers do care about their animals. Well, most farmers. I'm sure that there are some out there that don't but that goes for almost everything. I want to be a large animal veterinarian because I've been raised on a beef cattle and swine farm. I love my animals. I try to care for them the best that I can. Although I get to know the personalities of my animals and have raised most of them from birth or a young age, the purpose is to raise them for food.
Maybe you should try talking to some local farmers about their practices. It might make you feel better. Yes there are some circumstances where large corporations have taken over and the conditions are not what they should be. However, there are many farms, both small and large, where the animals are taken care of and appreciated. Farmers that produce livestock rely on their animals to make a living. If those animals aren't healthy or if the animals are too stressed, they won't produce as much and could die. Thus, the farmer losses an animal they put effort and money into.

 

[Jess Monster]

I hope I am not a "smug" vegan as well.

I'll clear up the remark about smug vegans.

If you talk ad nauseam about what you eat and why you eat it, unsolicited, and then give yourself a pat on the back for "witnessing" to others, you might be smug.

If you act like eating meat is the worst thing in the world and compare it to genocide with absurd statements like "factory farms = Auschwitz for animals," you might be smug.

If you find yourself reprimanding complete strangers for making different dietary choices that you perceive to be "bad," "unhealthy," or "unethical," you might be smug. Depending on the situation you might also be elitist.

If you suggest that anyone who uses animal products is unfit for the veterinary profession because eating meat and supporting animal agriculture is tantamount to animal abuse, you might be smug.

If you're humbled by the choices you have because you live in a country with a high level of food security and diverse markets that allow you to "eat ethically," you're probably not smug.

If you realize that one's diet is a highly personal choice that is influenced by things like culture and socioeconomics, you're probably not smug.


(Something that’s been bothering me: Veganism is more than just a strict vegetarian diet. If you still wear leather or eat the occasional animal product, you are likely not a VEGAN. A distinction needs to be made that there are “dietary vegans” and then there are VEGANS… you know people who consider AI to be rape, farms to be prisons, and speciesism to be a form of prejudice equal to racism. If you’ve never encountered these “ethical vegan” types, it’s probably really easy to push the term “vegan” into the mainstream as just some innocuous plant based diet, but I think that it’s important to remember that this movement is heavily associated with a subculture of animal activism. This is why I personally find it very odd when people identify as vegan but seem to be unaware of or reject the lifestyle.)

 

[Kpowell14]

I can't help but think " you might be a redneck if..." while reading that last post ...

Totally not calling Vegans rednecks, just the wording made me think about it lol

 

[Jess Monster]

I can't help but think " you might be a redneck if..." while reading that last post ...

Totally not calling Vegans rednecks, just the wording made me think about it lol

Good. I was headed in that direction.

Although, a redneck vegan would be an interesting creature.

 

[Kpowell14]

Good. I was headed in that direction.

Although, a redneck vegan would be an interesting creature.

yes it would!! I can't even a redneck vegan lol <- two words that could never describe the same person

 

[ducktoller]

What a great set of responses so far!

Just wanted to add that I think we (as humans) should not feel bad about eating meat.
As omnivores, we do need a stable source of protein and other vitamins in our diet that are normally achieved from sources of meat. I know that the same sources can be achieved from certain vegetables (eg. quinoa),, but really, humans have been eating meat since the very beginning.

I do not think farmers are to blame either. With such a large demand for meat with the geometrically growing population, what other way is there to feed large amounts of people apart from intensification of livestock?

I imagine that in a vegan's ideal world. the entire world population opts out of any animal products. That is a ton of jobs that are being thrown out the window. Not just farmers, but people who rely on animals for a living. Think about the role of mules/donkeys in third world countries and their role in transporting supplies- what other option do people have?
Instead, I agree with everyone else that the key to resolving this issue is proper management of farming industries.
We can already see the shift in social ethic in several countries! eg. UK and several countries in the EU have banned sow gestation stalls. I'm definitely not saying that animal activists such as PETA are at fault either. If we never had anyone challenging (and perhaps over-exaggerating) animal practices, then there would be nobody to advocate animal welfare.
I think the essential thing to be done is for people to realize what exactly happens to your food until it ends up on the plate, and make an educated decision based on that.
Opting to be vegan does not help anyone at all. It does not stop poor animal management and certainly does not prevent animals from being mistreated.

 

[surfertink]

First of all, congrats for getting into Cornell!

I'm currently in my interview process at other schools

I actually AM a pescetarian, after being vegetarian for awhile. I know that I AM the minority, but since you're interested I can share why I personally do it.

I first started over 3 years ago and did it for health reasons. I don't like the amount of hormones and antibiotics put in meat. Then I read the book, Eating Animals. I didn't realize how far the American public is removed from food production. I didn't like that, since I try to be as natural as possible.

I was a vegetarian for one year, and the only thing I missed was fish, so I went back to eating it. I grew up eating tons of meat, it's really not as difficult as people make it out to be. It's a personal decision though, just as personal as selecting veterinary medicine as a career - so it's whatever your heart tells you is right.

I do not have problems with people who hunt their own meat, but I don't believe in mass production and factory farming. I'm a pacifist and not going to be hunting my own meat anytime soon (maybe I'll catch a crab...) so I cannot justify buying meat for myself.

If any of you have honest questions I can answer it.

P.S. I'm NOT vegan, I'm not crazy

 

[DVMDream]

First of all, congrats for getting into Cornell!

I'm currently in my interview process at other schools

I actually AM a pescetarian, after being vegetarian for awhile. I know that I AM the minority, but since you're interested I can share why I personally do it.

I first started over 3 years ago and did it for health reasons. I don't like the amount of hormones and antibiotics put in meat. Then I read the book, Eating Animals. I didn't realize how far the American public is removed from food production. I didn't like that, since I try to be as natural as possible.

I was a vegetarian for one year, and the only thing I missed was fish, so I went back to eating it. I grew up eating tons of meat, it's really not as difficult as people make it out to be. It's a personal decision though, just as personal as selecting veterinary medicine as a career - so it's whatever your heart tells you is right.

I do not have problems with people who hunt their own meat, but I don't believe in mass production and factory farming. I'm a pacifist and not going to be hunting my own meat anytime soon (maybe I'll catch a crab...) so I cannot justify buying meat for myself.

If any of you have honest questions I can answer it.

P.S. I'm NOT vegan, I'm not crazy

So, do you drink milk, eat cheese, or anything else that is dairy?? If so, those cows are factory farmed too....

 

[Trematode]

IIf you suggest that anyone who uses animal products is unfit for the veterinary profession because eating meat and supporting animal agriculture is tantamount to animal abuse, you might be smug.

Something that's been bothering me: Veganism is more than just a strict vegetarian diet. If you still wear leather or eat the occasional animal product, you are likely not a VEGAN. A distinction needs to be made that there are "dietary vegans" and then there are VEGANS&#8230; you know people who consider AI to be rape, farms to be prisons, and speciesism to be a form of prejudice equal to racism. If you've never encountered these "ethical vegan" types, it's probably really easy to push the term "vegan" into the mainstream as just some innocuous plant based diet, but I think that it's important to remember that this movement is heavily associated with a subculture of animal activism. This is why I personally find it very odd when people identify as vegan but seem to be unaware of or reject the lifestyle.)

With regards to the first post, I actually had people tell me I am unfit for the veterinary profession because I did not want to be a LA vet (on here). So people on both sides of the fence have are capable of being "smug" I have gotten some pretty smug, uninvited reactions to me not eating meat. My favorite is that I am going to die if I do not get complete proteins at every single meal, like a biochem textbook says. It had been 8 years and I am not sick or dead I think.

This is probably common knowledge, but it's impossible to be 100% vegan. If you own a car, you are not vegan. If you get certain vaccines, you are not vegan, etc.

I actually should have been more accurate when I labelled myself as "vegan" in the above post. Since I am new to this, I still don't know what is appropriate to call myself when someone asks. Regarding my diet, I am a vegan that hasn't decided whether to eat honey or not. I try to avoid products with honey in them and use honey from local beekeepers. To some, I am vegan. To some, I am a strict vegetarian. I am not afraid to admit that! I just see myself as someone trying to live healthier. My personal opinion is that animal products and heavily processed products are not healthy for my body or my family. My mom has high blood pressure and my dad had a heart attack and now a fractured back (so he cannot work let alone get around).

Unfortunately, my birth control pills will always have milk ingredients in them.

You have to pick and chose your battles when it comes to animals. Some people volunteer in shelters, others stop eating production animals. Some advocate for spay/neuter or BSL, others chose to buy animal products from farms they are familiar with. Some adopt animals over buying them from pet stores, others raise their own animals for meat, milk or eggs. Nobody has to do it all to be a compassionate person who cares about animals.

 

[Lissarae06]

With regards to the first post, I actually had people tell me I am unfit for the veterinary profession because I did not want to be a LA vet (on here). So people on both sides of the fence have are capable of being "smug" I have gotten some pretty smug, uninvited reactions to me not eating meat. My favorite is that I am going to die if I do not get complete proteins at every single meal, like a biochem textbook says. It had been 8 years and I am not sick or dead I think.

This is probably common knowledge, but it's impossible to be 100% vegan. If you own a car, you are not vegan. If you get certain vaccines, you are not vegan, etc.

I actually should have been more accurate when I labelled myself as "vegan" in the above post. Since I am new to this, I still don't know what is appropriate to call myself when someone asks. Regarding my diet, I am a vegan that hasn't decided whether to eat honey or not. I try to avoid products with honey in them and use honey from local beekeepers. To some, I am vegan. To some, I am a strict vegetarian. I am not afraid to admit that! I just see myself as someone trying to live healthier. My personal opinion is that animal products and heavily processed products are not healthy for my body or my family. My mom has high blood pressure and my dad had a heart attack and now a fractured back (so he cannot work let alone get around).

Unfortunately, my birth control pills will always have milk ingredients in them.

You have to pick and chose your battles when it comes to animals. Some people volunteer in shelters, others stop eating production animals. Some advocate for spay/neuter or BSL, others chose to buy animal products from farms they are familiar with. Some adopt animals over buying them from pet stores, others raise their own animals for meat, milk or eggs. Nobody has to do it all to be a compassionate person who cares about animals.

First of all, someone on SDN told you that you are unfit for this profession because you didn't want to be a LA vet? I find that hard to believe since there are a ton of people on here that don't want to go into large animal. I'm not calling you a liar, so please don't take it that way, I just can't believe someone on here would say that to you.

In the second thing I bolded, do you mean TNR instead of BSL? I don't think many people here or in vet med think that BSL is a good thing.

 

[OwlandPussycat]

I have gotten some pretty smug, uninvited reactions to me not eating meat. My favorite is that I am going to die if I do not get complete proteins at every single meal, like a biochem textbook says. It had been 8 years and I am not sick or dead I think.

After being a vegetarian for 10 years, I'm still wondering where all the smug omnivores are! I have some friends who joke about it, but not really in an obnoxious way. A few times, I've gotten the question "if you were trapped alone on a deserted island with nothing but a cow.... would you eat it?", but I think that's more of an "all in good fun" knee-jerk reaction (like asking "what color is this???" when you find out someone is colorblind). I've seriously never had someone question my protein intake or anything!!

Then again, I have lived in the San Francisco bay area my whole life.

 

[Emiloo4]

OP, if you want to make an impact, you could do A LOT more as a food animal veterinarian than as a vegan to decrease animal suffering. The one steak you don't buy (ugh the thought of no steak :cry: ) or the 3 slices of bacon you don't eat (I would DIE) is a very small impact compared to maintaining the health of entire herds.
Not saying there isn't an impact bc I know if EVERYONE did it, than blah blah blah, but as a vet you have THE greatest opportunity to ensure the health and "happiness" of thousands of animals, compared to a few ounces of meat at a time.

 

[Trematode]

First of all, someone on SDN told you that you are unfit for this profession because you didn't want to be a LA vet? I find that hard to believe since there are a ton of people on here that don't want to go into large animal. I'm not calling you a liar, so please don't take it that way, I just can't believe someone on here would say that to you.

In the second thing I bolded, do you mean TNR instead of BSL? I don't think many people here or in vet med think that BSL is a good thing.

I don't remember the original title of the post but I'll try to find it. Someone went all Temple Grandin on my butt and someone else had to come in and stand up for me.

And with BSL, I ment some people chose to use their time to fight against it.

 

[Trematode]

I don't know how to link my phone to it, but it was titled something like "Can we equivocate human suffering to animal suffering?"

It was actually interesting to go back and read what I was saying (I think I was a little smug!) Even after a few short months, I feel differently about things. And just to clarify, an SDN member said it was upsetting that I, a pre-vet student, believed in some of the situations that happen in slaughterhouses and would therefore fail in my interviews if it was brought up. I just remembered that little point an how shocking it was at the time. I think they were implying that you need to know everything about slaughterhouses to be a good vet, but the OP did admit they were having a bad day. A lot of stuff came up about Temple Grandin and I did do some reading after that. I have not noticed that poster around since.

I think I must have bad luck when it comes to interactions with people who eat meat. I don't find a lot of people who ask me genuine questions. I get asked where I my protein from or people just act uncomfortable. I have been told that vegetarianism is unhealthy and that we need meat to survive or that I am making myself sick. I know where it comes from. Usually John Doe's sister's friend's cousin went vegetarian and got sick or Jane Doe's aunt became a Mac-and-Cheese vegetarian and became anemic and John and Jane did not do any research into the health benefits of doing it properly. People gave me a harder time in high school than now. It's probably an age thing.

 

[Trematode]

OP, if you want to make an impact, you could do A LOT more as a food animal veterinarian than as a vegan to decrease animal suffering. The one steak you don't buy (ugh the thought of no steak :cry: ) or the 3 slices of bacon you don't eat (I would DIE) is a very small impact compared to maintaining the health of entire herds.
Not saying there isn't an impact bc I know if EVERYONE did it, than blah blah blah, but as a vet you have THE greatest opportunity to ensure the health and "happiness" of thousands of animals, compared to a few ounces of meat at a time.

I do have a question about that. I have heard that large scale farms will only pump in X number of dollars per animal in veterinary care before they are considered not worth it. In feedlot alley in Alberta, there is a feedlot that will pump in $50/animal for instance, which isn't a lot. Also, they try to treat themselves first before getting the assistance of a veterinarian.

I have also read that they put antibiotics in feed to reduce the illnesses associate with overcrowding in feedlots (mainly respiratory issues).

If that is the case, how are antibiotic-fed cows in feedlots awaiting slaughter "happier" than the alternative (smaller heards of pasture-raised cattle)?

Personally, I am not comfortable having my salary come from a big business where their main objective is to bring the cow from birth to your plate as cheaply as possible with the smallest number if downed animals. I wonder how many vegetarian vets work for the big agri businesses out there.

I will admit, I did watch a local documentary called Franksteer which was filmed in Alberta. They spoke to feedlot operators and veterinarians. They talked a lot about government policy and business. They discussed how the country responded to the Mad Cow outbreak, the use of products banned in the UK, and some of the common methods of maintaining healthy cattle as cheaply as possible. It was interesting because they told it like it was and why the big businesses chose to do things. They also showed what the big businesses did in response to some of the crises in order to keep their costs low and profits high. It wasn't necessarily anti-meat, but the aim was for us to be aware as to what we are doing compared to other countries.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I don't remember the original title of the post but I'll try to find it. Someone went all Temple Grandin on my butt and someone else had to come in and stand up for me.

You're prob talking about me/my post. I don't remember what it was exactly about, but I do remember it happening. I do remember that you completely mistook what i was trying to say, so i just gave up and didn't bother to keep trying to explain myself. That whole thread (not specifically you) if I remember correctly was full of misinformation and extrapolation of anecdotes to universal truths, that it became one big mess. We currently have a productive thread without emotions driving it, and I'd prefer to prevent what happened with the last one. I never said or meant to insinuate that you should not be a vet because you don't want to do LA. Hell, I would NEVER do LA.

 

[Trematode]

You're prob talking about me/my post. I don't remember what it was exactly about, but I do remember it happening. I do remember that you completely mistook what i was trying to say, so i just gave up and didn't bother to keep trying to explain myself. That whole thread (not specifically you) if I remember correctly was full of misinformation and extrapolation of anecdotes to universal truths, that it became one big mess. We currently have a productive thread without emotions driving it, and I'd prefer to prevent what happened with the last one. I never said or meant to insinuate that you should not be a vet because you don't want to do LA. Hell, I would NEVER do LA.

It wasn't you who said that. It was the OP of the thread I do believe who I have not seen around.

 

[that redhead]

I have heard that large scale farms will only pump in X number of dollars per animal in veterinary care before they are considered not worth it...Also, they try to treat themselves first before getting the assistance of a veterinarian.

I have also read that they put antibiotics in feed to reduce the illnesses associate with overcrowding in feedlots (mainly respiratory issues).

Personally, I am not comfortable having my salary come from a big business where their main objective is to bring the cow from birth to your plate as cheaply as possible with the smallest number if downed animals. I wonder how many vegetarian vets work for the big agri businesses out there.

Farmers raise animals for food, as a business. As many have said, most farmers care about their animals, but at the end of the day, they are running a business, not an Animals Are Awesome farm. The pieces I pulled from your quote are prudent business decisions, and I don't think that you can fault the farmer for putting a limit on what they can spend per animal, attempting to treat on their own first or other such cost effective measures. Those things on their own aren't hurting the animal. If a farmer lets an infection fester or a sick cow just continue along toward death without any therapy at all (including euth'ing), that becomes an ethics issue. Keeping chickens (or pigs) in such confined spaces solely for the purpose of more room for more animals is an ethical issue (at least in my opinion). But finding ways to be as cost effective as possible is not an ethical issue on its own.

 

[DVMDream]

I do have a question about that. I have heard that large scale farms will only pump in X number of dollars per animal in veterinary care before they are considered not worth it. In feedlot alley in Alberta, there is a feedlot that will pump in $50/animal for instance, which isn't a lot. Also, they try to treat themselves first before getting the assistance of a veterinarian.

I have also read that they put antibiotics in feed to reduce the illnesses associate with overcrowding in feedlots (mainly respiratory issues).

If that is the case, how are antibiotic-fed cows in feedlots awaiting slaughter "happier" than the alternative (smaller heards of pasture-raised cattle)?

Yes, it is easier for bacterial infections to spread amongst cattle when they are closer together (similar to people, that is why the cold/flu is more common in the winter months when people stay inside, close together where it is warm).... on the flip side, it is much, much, much more difficult to control and manage parasite burdens when cows are "out in the fields and happy". Pick your poison.

I have never heard of any farmer having a set value for vet care on a cow.. ever... Farming is a business whether it is organic/free-range or factory... they are trying to make money... veterinary medicine is also a business. We both try to do what is best for the animal, but bottom line is that money will always be a factor. A farmer might be willing to spend more money on a single cow that he knows is a good cow than he would on just an average cow, but it does not matter the setting most farmers will try to treat/cure things on their own before consulting a veterinarian... it is a much different breed of vet med than small animal or equine.

 

[Emiloo4]

Personally, I am not comfortable having my salary come from a big business where their main objective is to bring the cow from birth to your plate as cheaply as possible with the smallest number if downed animals. I wonder how many vegetarian vets work for the big agri businesses out there.

That's just the nature of the business. Business is the objective of doing things to maximize profit. Just like the soy industry destroys farmers and monopolizes soy crops to limit the money the farmers get and increase their own profits. It's happening everywhere and my point was simply that not buying meat or animal products has much less effect (on an individual standpoint) than doing the best you can for the health of the animals as a veterinarian. You have much less control (not saying you'll have tons as a vet) and oversight into how an animals is being treated by just skipping the meat section than you will as the veterinarian treating and controlling herd and individual health.
Bottom line is that food animal is solely an industry based on selling animal products at the highest profit:cost ratio.
I know several food animal veterinarians who have walked onto cattle farms, saw the way animals were being handled and simply implemented new techniques with the farm hands to show them how to better manage their cows. There are lots of good ole boys working bovine that just do what they've been taught by their predecessors and don't even realize that they're being slightly too forceful. Part of your job as the veterinarian is to show them better ways and prove to them that less is usually more when it comes to handling cattle. They are usually very receptive, especially when it helps them get their jobs done faster and easier. Win win. Just an example of how you can potentially save 400 cows from being mishandled instead of 10 ounces of one cow.

 

[Coquette22]

I do have a question about that. I have heard that large scale farms will only pump in X number of dollars per animal in veterinary care before they are considered not worth it. In feedlot alley in Alberta, there is a feedlot that will pump in $50/animal for instance, which isn't a lot.

You're right, they don't spend much to treat an individiual animal. But as a food animal veterinarian, most of the work is on the prevention side - vaccination, antibiotics, handling protocols to prevent disease. Necropsy the sick one, figure out what's going on, then help the farmer/feedlot manager develop new protocols to prevent it in the future.

 

[cowgirla]

. Keeping chickens (or pigs) in such confined spaces solely for the purpose of more room for more animals is an ethical issue (at least in my opinion). But finding ways to be as cost effective as possible is not an ethical issue on its own.

I know next to nothing about the poultry industry, but for pigs, its a little more complicated than keeping pigs in small spaces just to make more room. There are pig and human safety implications as well. Sows in a group are aggressive and will fight. Sows at the bottom of the totem pole won't be allowed to eat or drink. It's harder to give individual treatments. There's a danger to anyone who has to try to handle pigs in a group, or go in there to clean/feed or single out a specific pig for whatever reason. Personally, for the safety reasons alone I'm more inclined to be ok with individually housed pigs. You couldn't pay me enough to go into a pen with multiple pregnant, cranky sows. Then there's the business side of it- pigs getting hurt is bad for business. Pigs getting bullied away from their food is bad for business. Pigs not eating = poor birth rates/weights/litter sizes. Injuries = expensive to treat, + potential loss of that pig as a breeding animal.

I know not too long ago there was a study done on swine housing, and pigs were given access to their own individual pen, but they could leave at will into a group area. And apparently the majority of pigs chose to spend 90% of their time in their private area. I think it was done somewhere in Europe.

I'm not saying I'd like the gestation crates and individual housing to always be the best option...but having seen both individual and group housing, and seeing the differences in the animals kept in each (physical health / appearance /attitude), I don't think group housing in a pen is the best bet. Someone needs to think up Plan C that will be better for the piggies

 

[PetPony]

When we took the piglets out of the gestation crates, I almost got bitten by the sows several times. I would never step into a pen with several of them together in a pissy mood.

 

[that redhead]

You're absolutely right re: piggy dynamics. Gestation crates are easy to pick on, and a lot of people just have a knee-jerk reaction to them. I see the advantages and the necessity of them for pig production. Similarly, I've seen group housing where group sizes are smaller and it still isn't much help. The individual system is a lot better all around for everyone involved, but in this instance I don't feel like that alternative is...morally agreeable? (at least for me!) I'd rather just not eat pig until that Plan C comes about

It's hard enough going into pig pens where there are only a couple and they're just curious (Cough boots and lab coat getting chewed on through lab practical cough)

 

[sidvicious]

Interesting thread!!! I don't have much to add... except that I think its refreshing to hear thoughts from both sides of the 'eating patients' discussion. By personal choice, I eat vegan, but have a LOT to learn about food production and animal welfare. Just another reason to be excited for vet school!

Side note: Good luck hearing back everybody!