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Non-trad: 4 years ago, they were an adult
Traditional UG pre-med: 4 years ago, they were a child. If it's in high school, it doesn't count. Sorry, but life's not fair.

HCHopeful said:
I want to start by saying this post is not meant to have a whiny tone of any sort.

So, I've noticed a few non-traditional students post about what kind of chance they have of getting into medical school. Some list great GPAs, a good MCAT score, and STELLAR extracurriculars. Good for them, I'm glad they have their applications looking great. I just have a question/observation.

Why are non-trads allowed to include activities from more than four years ago while tradition applicants aren't? (Or are they?)

I recently noticed a post about a 30-something year old who had mentioned he/she was involved in many groups in her undergraduate days with many leadership positions and excellent research. These experiences had been from SEVEN years ago. Yet, almost everybody responding to the post had told them they had a GREAT chance of being accepted while looking at the extracurricular's and what not.

I am unsure if they are actually allowed to include such activities, or if it is looked down upon to do so. If it isn't, though, I am unsure it is entirely ethical to do so. It creates somewhat of an even further gap between experiences between them and traditional applicants.

If they are allowed to include such activities, shouldn't I, as a traditional applicant, be able to include experiences from high school that contributed to my interest in medicine? You can argue that experiences in high school are less meaningful, but I tend to disagree. These were my most formative years; they were the years I decided medicine was what I wanted.

Keep in mind, I am saying that there was no carry-over from the extracurricular's that were done seven years ago, so they were FINISHED, just as many things in high school don't carry over. I do realize activities that carry over from high school are often included in a medical school application

I don't know. Maybe I am looking at this in the wrong light. Does anyone have any counterarguments that could perhaps enlighten me a bit?

I truly am just curious more than anything, so please don't think I am bashing non-traditionals. My sister is a non-trad and I think she is much more deserving than I of a spot in medical school.

Thanks for taking the time, everyone.
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The rule against high school activities isn't an absolute. If you have extremely meaningful activities which required substantial time or dedication then you are more than welcome to list them. The problem, though, is that the overwhelming majority of people don't have those kinds of experiences. Advising students that are, on the whole, variable degrees of neurotic that including high school activities is acceptable would likely do more harm than good. A surprising number of people don't seem to be able to evaluate whether something is appropriate to include on an application, thus the safer path is to not include anything at all.

No one cares about the clubs you were in during high school because they more than likely weren't all that impressive. It also leaves people looking over your application wondering why you would include those activities since, theoretically, you should've had a wealth of experiences in college.

Non-trads as a general rule have experiences which are substantively important and occupied significant portions of their life. They are also likely to have played a role in their decision to go to med school.

Nothing is strictly black and white, but when people give general advice you have to remember that many people will read what you say and accept it as gospel without much thought.
 
I don't want to include anything in my application from my high school years. So I'm not saying it's unfair to me. I don't need your apologies.

You are completely undermining everything accomplished by a person who is considered a "child." Doing something 7 years ago should be irrelevant by any standard. That person would in no way be the person they were at the time.

I agree there's an age difference. I just don't think age makes something more significant than another.

Goro said:
Non-trad: 4 years ago, they were an adult
Traditional UG pre-med: 4 years ago, they were a child. If it's in high school, it doesn't count. Sorry, but life's not fair.
Click to expand...
 
NickNaylor said:
The rule against high school activities isn't an absolute. If you have extremely meaningful activities which required substantial time or dedication then you are more than welcome to list them. The problem, though, is that the overwhelming majority of people don't have those kinds of experiences. Advising students that are, on the whole, variable degrees of neurotic that including high school activities is acceptable would likely do more harm than good. A surprising number of people don't seem to be able to evaluate whether something is appropriate to include on an application, thus the safer path is to not include anything at all.

No one cares about the clubs you were in during high school because they more than likely weren't all that impressive. It also leaves people looking over your application wondering why you would include those activities since, theoretically, you should've had a wealth of experiences in college.

Non-trads as a general rule have experiences which are substantively important and occupied significant portions of their life. They are also likely to have played a role in their decision to go to med school.

Nothing is strictly black and white, but when people give general advice you have to remember that many people will read what you say and accept it as gospel without much thought.
Click to expand...

My reason for choosing medical school has nothing to do with college experiences. I decided in Junior High for a very good reason. One which I believe is best kept to myself.

I agree many things in high school are meaningless; however, not everything is.
 
Doctor Strange said:
You'll understand when you're older.
Click to expand...

I doubt it. But thanks, grandpa. Glad I could get some wisdom from a med student.

Oh wait, I'm dating one. (a.k.a. age doesn't always equate to maturity)
 
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LAtoDavis said:
Please share your thoughts with adcoms. Then, maybe they'll discount my early gpa.
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As they should. How does something done that long ago have any bearing on the person they will be accepting? If you had a 2.5 GPA as a 20 year old and a 4.0 GPA as a 27 year old, does that not completely change the scenario? I am not saying it only goes one way.
 
HCHopeful said:
I don't want to include anything in my application from my high school years. So I'm not saying it's unfair to me. I don't need your apologies.

You are completely undermining everything accomplished by a person who is considered a "child." Doing something 7 years ago should be irrelevant by any standard. That person would in no way be the person they were at the time.

I agree there's an age difference. I just don't think age makes something more significant than another.
Click to expand...

By your flawless reasoning should George W Bush not count his presidency over the US when listing his accomplishments?
 
kthxbai said:
By your flawless reasoning should George W Bush not count his presidency over the US when listing his accomplishments?
Click to expand...

If we must look at it as younger people's accomplishments being less relevant, then yes.
 
HCHopeful said:
I don't want to include anything in my application from my high school years. So I'm not saying it's unfair to me. I don't need your apologies.

You are completely undermining everything accomplished by a person who is considered a "child." Doing something 7 years ago should be irrelevant by any standard. That person would in no way be the person they were at the time.

I agree there's an age difference. I just don't think age makes something more significant than another.
Click to expand...

So say I'm applying for a job and they ask for my work history, is it not relevant if i held the job say, 7 years ago?

I think even with non-trads there gets to be a point where things lose their significance. Non-trads just tend to have more activities spread over a longer period of time. Rather than just 3 years.
 
I'm a non-trad and my gpa from college is a 3.3. I would love for that to just disappear because some of those classes were almost ten years ago but it won't. So there's good and bad that comes with reaching that far back. It's just the way it works. Most of us non-trads (I think) have way more accomplishments in recent years than in undergraduate years. One of the most important questions on secondaries for people who have already graduated is what we've been doing AFTER graduation. If a 30 year old only posts ECs from when they were 20, that would be a little strange.

Also we're all very proud of you for dating a med student.
 
HCHopeful said:
I agree there's an age difference. I just don't think age makes something more significant than another.
Click to expand...

No? How 'bout an example? Like having a full time job...
at age 14: illegal
at age 19: you should have one, at least for the summer, but not having one is maybe not your fault
at age 24 (till death): if you haven't ever had one at this point, something is seriously wrong.

The significance of having or not having a job changes drastically over a 10 year period, then changes very little after that. Why would you assume the significance of other activities would not also change
 
RachieRach said:
I'm a non-trad and my gpa from college is a 3.3. I would love for that to just disappear because some of those classes were almost ten years ago but it won't. So there's good and bad that comes with reaching that far back. It's just the way it works. Most of us non-trads (I think) have way more accomplishments in recent years than in undergraduate years. One of the most important questions on secondaries for people who have already graduated is what we've been doing AFTER graduation. If a 30 year old only posts ECs from when they were 20, that would be a little strange.

Also we're all very proud of you for dating a med student.
Click to expand...

All I meant by the dating of a medical student was that age doesn't necessarily equate to maturity. As evidenced by Doctor Strange in his original comment.
 
HCHopeful said:
As they should. How does something done that long ago have any bearing on the person they will be accepting? If you had a 2.5 GPA as a 20 year old and a 4.0 GPA as a 27 year old, does that not completely change the scenario? I am not saying it only goes one way.
Click to expand...

I agree, actually.

And, some medical schools actually ask for the last 4 years of activities, only... Rush was one that I remember from this cycle.
 
kraskadva said:
No? How 'bout an example? Like having a full time job...
at age 14: illegal
at age 19: you should have one, at least for the summer, but not having one is maybe not your fault
at age 24: if you haven't ever had one at this point, something is seriously wrong.

The significance of having or not having a job changes drastically over a 10 year period. Why would you assume the significance of other activities would not also change
Click to expand...

I had a full-time job during the summer at the age of 12 that is probably harder than most other jobs. It's called detasseling. Very fun, by the way.

I can see your logic, but I don't think it necessarily carries over. You're saying just because one is expected to be contributing something that the significance of what he/she is doing increases with age. So, a 17-year-old who invents a new technology has less significance in his work than a 24 year old cleaning a swimming pool? Come on...
 
HCHopeful said:
I had a full-time job during the summer at the age of 12 that is probably harder than most other jobs. It's called detasseling. Very fun, by the way.

I can see your logic, but I don't think it necessarily carries over. You're saying just because one is expected to be contributing something that the significance of what he/she is doing increases with age. So, a 17-year-old who invents a new technology has less significance in his work than a 24 year old cleaning a swimming pool? Come on...
Click to expand...
Not at all, and that 17 year old inventor would be justified in mentioning that, but that is the exception not the rule.
 
kraskadva said:
Not at all, and that 17 year old inventor would be justified in mentioning that, but that is the exception not the rule.
Click to expand...

As is the George W. Bush comment above, but somehow everyone forgets about that... Interesting, huh?
 
HCHopeful said:
I had a full-time job during the summer at the age of 12 that is probably harder than most other jobs. It's called detasseling. Very fun, by the way.

I can see your logic, but I don't think it necessarily carries over. You're saying just because one is expected to be contributing something that the significance of what he/she is doing increases with age. So, a 17-year-old who invents a new technology has less significance in his work than a 24 year old cleaning a swimming pool? Come on...
Click to expand...

You're using very extreme examples here... A job at mcdonalds when you're 15 isn't quite significant. Neither is the pool thing at 24. But at least the 24 is doing something.
 
ciestar said:
You're using very extreme examples here... A job at mcdonalds when you're 15 isn't quite significant. Neither is the pool thing at 24. But at least the 24 is doing something.
Click to expand...

You're right. The extreme examples aren't justified. Just an easy way of explaining a point.
 
This is why the high school years don't count much. Some of you are still whining. STILL!!!

Weren't we just talking about maturity?

I love how the reaction of non-trads here is just ... /shrug.
 
ridethecliche said:
This is why the high school years don't count much. Some of you are still whining. STILL!!!

Weren't we just talking about maturity?

I love how the reaction of non-trads here is just ... /shrug.
Click to expand...

There was no whining. There was curiosity. Which people such as you took and completely threw over a ledge.

It amazes me how people such as you view themselves as "above" me simply because I had a viewpoint I thought was worth expressing.

And the reaction is quite clearly not one of just "shrug." This would indicate a lack of responses more than anything. Clearly, this was not the case. I hit a nerve, and I apologize for doing so. This was not my intention.
 
Here it is ladies and gents:

I can admit my post was not well thought out. I can see how activities done in adult life pertain more to a medical school application than high school activities.

Thank you all for your responses. Many were well thought out, and I appreciate the counterpoints.

I fully admit I was wrong on this point.
 
HCHopeful said:
I doubt it. But thanks, grandpa. Glad I could get some wisdom from a med student.

Oh wait, I'm dating one. (a.k.a. age doesn't always equate to maturity)
Click to expand...

Your maturity level has been made quite plain, bud.
 
Not every applicant, traditional or nontraditional, has the same circumstances. That said, I think that nontraditional students could be permitted to use activities which reach back longer than 4 years because of additional demands which often accompany getting older. Generally, I think it is safe to assume that most nontrad students are not living at home, which means working to pay rent/mortgage and other bills becomes absolutely necessary, not optional. These student are also much more likely to have children to support. In my experience, many of my fellow nontraditional classmates take longer to complete a degree because of these additional demands on their time, money, and attention. As a result, their extracurriculars are more likely to be spread over a longer period of time.

I also think it is important to consider that nontraditional students are likely to have been involved in an activity which sparked an interest in medicine long before they had the opportunity to pursue an education that would prepare them for applying to med school. For my part, I was working two full time jobs, living in a foreign country, putting my husband through school when I decided that I wanted to go into medicine. At that point, I was a college drop out with little academic experience. There were important things happening in my life which acted as the impetus behind that decision. That was more than six years ago. I believe limiting myself to the last four years in my application would not be sufficient to explain the drastic change in my trajectory.

Maybe that helps?

If you are as well prepared and knowledgeable, do you think your application will be significantly injured by a four year time limit?
 
I think everyone is missing the point here. Non-trads include activities from when they were in undergrad because it shows what kind of student they were. Med schools want to see evidence of what you're going to bring to the table as a medical student. What better evidence is there then what you brought to the table the last time you were a student?
 
Irish Luck said:
I think everyone is missing the point here. Non-trads include activities from when they were in undergrad because it shows what kind of student they were. Med schools want to see evidence of what you're going to bring to the table as a medical student. What better evidence is there then what you brought to the table the last time you were a student?
Click to expand...

Beautifully put. This perhaps made more sense to me than anything thus far. I appreciate your input.
 
That wasn't obvious to you? You were that distracted by the time argument that you didn't think of the fact that this was about when they were full time students?

For some non-trads, this might not be relevant at all since they took all their coursework post-bacc. If anything some of them wish their undergrad gpa and such was totally erased from the record. That stuff is still important for schools to look at, even though they judge it negatively, i.e. substandard grades etc. It also allows schools to look at how they do later on in the context of what else they have going on in life.

Major lesson here for lots of SDN'ers: Stop freaking out and worrying about what other people have going on and if they're lucky/unlucky/whathaveyou and concentrate on putting your own best app forward.
 
25 years ago, I have experience in OBGYN growing and being born... I came to realize more with everyday there was something called life and something called death. I have experienced breathing for the past 25 years and my heart beating longer. That will be an EC
 
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