Electives in the US

[co06]

I was wondering how many electives in the US a student is allowed to do while studying in Ireland.

For example, after third year and the completion of all the core electives, can I replace any of my fourth year electives in Ireland with electives in the USA? So effectively spend my fourth year in the US doing electives at various institutions and then returning to Ireland to graduate? Or do I have to complete a certain number in Ireland to be eligible for graduation?

Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[leorl]

Doesn't quite work that way. Irish school isn't like the schedule for US school, so you actually don't have any electives in your final year. Your final year is spent doing your obs/gyne, paeds psychiatry, medicine and surgery exams and preparations for those exams. If you have an obs/gyne, psych, paeds rotation in the start of your final year, you can't really skip it. Actually, you are not meant to replace any of your assigned rotations with US electives. Unofficially, many of us have and if you choose to do so, do NOT tell your school. The schools make no allowances for completing US electives (one of the big issues we have with them).

So to get US elective in, you use your summers. Be prepared not to have vacation time during summers in order to get US electives...however, if you're doing it at a place which requires you to be in your final year (and some require USMLE scores too), this may present a problem. The easiest is to find places which do not have these requirements.

 

[co06]

Thanks for the post!

What do you mean that, unofficially you have and not to tell the schools. You can PM me if you don't want to put it in a public forum...

Thanks again!

 

[vök]

You can get plenty of US rotations done if you use your free time wisely. I don't know how it is at other Irish institutions, but at RCSI I had 3 weeks off in the spring on my third year that I used to do a research elective in the US

In between third year and fourth year the summer is about 2 months when I did another 1 month elective then relaxed for the other.

In fourth year I had a month long elective break where I did it at Cleveland Clinic.

Then between fourth med and final med I did one last 4 week elective then spent the other month studying for Step 2 CS/CK.

Now come time for match, I have 3 American reference letters, and all my boards done.

 

[Mr. McDuck]

Don't you have to have certain rotations done in order to do electives in the US? On the UPenn page it says you have to have medicine, surgery, psych, paeds, and ob/gyn done before you can do an elective? If you do them in your final year, how do you do the UPenn program?

 

[leorl]

It's "commonly" done but isn't condoned. Basically, it just means we arrange to do electives at times when we're meant to be in our Irish hospitals. It's our answer to them not allowing us any time to fulfill the requirements we need to get back home. We don't tell anyone about it because if you try to inform the administration and play "by the rules," it ends up biting you in the ass and you don't get much leniency. It does hurt you to some degree because attendance can be taken during rotations and a lot of final year is putting in the face time, but since this is a "requirement" for us, we regard it as more important than being in Irish placements. You can't do this for core rotations, but you can do it for others. Those who are lucky and maybe have connections can arrange to do all their electives in the summers. But if where you want to go requires you to be in final year and you can't arrange enough electives in the areas you want in the summer, then you just do them during the year.

Not only do people take "time off" to do rotations, they take time off to interview for the Match as well. We keep it quiet. And there's a lot of "what they don't know can't hurt them." It doesn't always work, and there are a few people in every year who do not manage to fulfill all the requirements to get back home in time for Matching in the final year. This is a big issue we have with the whole situation that's happening this year with jobs.

 

[leorl]

McDuck, that's typical of a program requiring you to be in final year and have your core electives done. More and more US programs are requiring this. Those wanting to get electives done sooner can try for places not requiring cores done or USMLEs to be done. However, it's different for each person. For instance, many of us are not willing to spend thousands of dollars to do electives in our home country (ie. between airfare, accommodation, etc.) so we choose electives by location. If the universities/programs in your area have requirements, you'll just have to wait til you're eligible. Some people have connections they can use too...but if you don't, it'll be a bit harder and more hassle for you to arrange electives.

 

[docolive]

Doing electives at a medical school (in the US) appears to be very expensive. The rates are tremendously different for visiting US students and visiting International Medical students....by over $1,000!!

Anyhow, the rate for this private medical school in the city in which I reside is $500 a month....12 weeks being close to $1500!!

 

[vök]

Doing electives at a medical school (in the US) appears to be very expensive. The rates are tremendously different for visiting US students and visiting International Medical students....by over $1,000!!

Anyhow, the rate for this private medical school in the city in which I reside is $500 a month....12 weeks being close to $1500!!

I was not charged anything for all of my electives. They were essentially sub-internships though.

As far as I know Harvard is one of the few that charges for IMG electives.

From the RCSI I have friends that have done electives at Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Rochester Program, Southwestern, UCSF, UPenn, Columbia,Johns Hopkins, etc and all of them were free. Some provided free boarding but most required you to find your own.

RCSI's fourth -> final year elective slot is affiliated with the following programs:

Cleveland Clinic
Mayo Rochester
Johns Hopkins
Columbia
Tufts Baystate
Brigham and Womens (fee, I believe ~$3000-4000)
(few more hospitals I wasn't interested in)

All applications for those electives are done through RCSI, so there isn't much work involved.

My other electives were set up in my free time and did involve contacting PDs, but most were very friendly and were familiar with my institution.

 

[docolive]

I was not charged anything for all of my electives. They were essentially sub-internships though.

That's fantastic. Thanks for the info. Southwestern is great...there are some perks for those who can live at home and do their electives during the summer. I must contain my excitement...not one acceptance letter in sight yet.

 

[docolive]

At Baylor Medical School, there were some Turkish Medical students who were doing their electives with a Turkish surgeon. I doubt that they had to pay, but then again, I may be wrong---judging by the fees listed on the school's website.

 

[leorl]

Yeah, just stay away from ones where you do have to pay exorbitant amounts. Unless you know someone on the inside. There's plenty out there who don't require fees and at most, i'd pay like 250 if they do require a fee. However, keep in mind that you will have to pay for flights/accommodation/food/travel at some places. Cleveland Clinic is fantastic in that they provide you housing for free - quite a few Irish and IMGs in general have done placements there. But there aren't many out there who actually do provide housing and things like that.

 

[Mr. McDuck]

What about malpractice? Do most places cover you, or do you have to find your own?

 

[leorl]

The Irish students do not have to worry about malpractice coverage. We are covered by the schools' malpractice insurance. You'll send a copy of that contract in with your elective applications.

 

[Mr. McDuck]

Cool, I didn't know that.

 

[sportsguy]

leorl,

So I have been doing research on both irish and caribbean schools. I am aware that the electives are done on the US after your basic sciences are taught on the island (saba) in this case. So for MIII and MIV you get to do rotations at teaching hospitals that offer clerkships to that school. I would assume that this is the time where one can get to know leaders in their field of choice and begin to work hard at getting what they need to be competitive for what they want to go into. So doesn't being in ireland complicate this process more? You mentioned that electives could be done in the US in the summers or when you are doing non core electives, but unless you have contacts of some sort, does this not become increasingly hard to do? It seems to me that the route from the caribbean seems to facilitate entry into your field of choice, whereas through irish it is possible but much more is involved in doing so. I personally want to go to the place that will enable me the best opportunity to get into the specialty I want. Recent Saba matches have people in ortho, surg and the like in Canadian universities, which is what I would like to consider. A little tougher from the Irish side? Don't get me wrong, I would love the opportunity for the experiences ireland would bring (culture, travelling, etc.) but practically the Caribbean seems to make more sense. Also I fully understand that your ability to get into what you want directly stems from your involvement and hard work. Any info on this would be helpful...thanks

 

[MagicalTrevor]

Ireland > Carribean

Seriously now, some carribean schools are horrible whereas some are fine, but irish medical schools all seem to be on par with each other. Also, many doctors in Canada are from Ireland and it has been jokingly called one of "Canada's medical schools." Personally i'd rather go to Ireland but it's your decision.

 

[docolive]

Ireland > Carribean

Seriously now, some carribean schools are horrible whereas some are fine, but irish medical schools all seem to be on par with each other. Also, many doctors in Canada are from Ireland and it has been jokingly called one of "Canada's medical schools." Personally i'd rather go to Ireland but it's your decision.

I agree with Magical Trevor. Don't trust everything you read. Ok, so someone may have matched into ortho or neuro, but out of how many classmates and what board scores did he or she make?? I don't trust all of the stats that the Carib. provide, and there is a stigma attached to them....it's an "easier option" both wrt admissions, US clerkships and so on. Also, the majority of SGU grads have matched into FP and Internal med. Both of which are great if that is what someone wants to do.

Ireland is a compelling option because it is respected, has tradition and it is not the easy route at all.

 

[leorl]

From a completely practical point of view, Caribbean schools may be the easier option. You have two complete years arranged for US experience and provisions for USMLE studying. However, I wouldn't say you would be working with "leaders" in the field...some places where the caribbean schools send their students aren't "leader" hospitals. There would be easier access than Irish schools, but if you're persistent, many Irish students do electives at places that are very well-respected in their fields of interest. It is harder to do electives from an Irish school in that you have to arrange a lot more things yourself and be more persistent, whereas in a Caribbean school there may be more things arranged for you. This is only a nuisance factor...if you're dogged enough, it will not hinder you from getting what you want if you plan carefully. Connections do help, I have to say (coming from someone who had no connections at all).

I do not think this thread should turn into an Ireland vs. Caribbean debate, and seeing as how none of us have practical experience with both systems at the same time, we should not engage in suggestions that Ireland > Caribbean. People go to those locations for different reasons and we should not fuel any sort of conceit or stigma associated with any location. We're all in the same boat with the same difficulties. The choice lies in what you think is most suitable for you individually.

 

[docolive]

I agree, and I apologize for making any contrasts. I think that doing your electives in a teaching hospital would be beneficial since I did read that students in the Carib. do their rotations on the east coast in small hospitals where things may be a little less structured. Anyhow, it is a personal decision, and either way, with devotion and perseverance, you will achieve your primary goal!

 

[sportsguy]

Thanks for the info.

 

[driedcaribou]

I
RCSI's fourth -> final year elective slot is affiliated with the following programs:

Cleveland Clinic
Mayo Rochester
Johns Hopkins
Columbia
Tufts Baystate
Brigham and Womens (fee, I believe ~$3000-4000)
(few more hospitals I wasn't interested in)

Those are some damn good affiliations!

Your school has done some good work.

 

[leorl]

i also did an elective at cleveland clinic, and while there, a couple ucd people were there too

 

[leorl]

trinity also has affiliations with jhu, columbia and mayo but spots are limited

 

[gmacpac]

I recently met a Radiation oncologist who graduated from the carribean, did her training at John Hopkins, and currently is an Attending Physician/Professor at Harvard Medical school.

My point is simply that if you put in your effort, you will end up doing fine. I agree some carribean schools have substandard teaching facilities, but a couple of them do stand apart when it comes to quality of medical education and residency placement.

 

[eur]

It's "commonly" done but isn't condoned. Basically, it just means we arrange to do electives at times when we're meant to be in our Irish hospitals. It's our answer to them not allowing us any time to fulfill the requirements we need to get back home. We don't tell anyone about it because if you try to inform the administration and play "by the rules," it ends up biting you in the ass and you don't get much leniency. It does hurt you to some degree because attendance can be taken during rotations and a lot of final year is putting in the face time, but since this is a "requirement" for us, we regard it as more important than being in Irish placements. You can't do this for core rotations, but you can do it for others. Those who are lucky and maybe have connections can arrange to do all their electives in the summers. But if where you want to go requires you to be in final year and you can't arrange enough electives in the areas you want in the summer, then you just do them during the year.

Not only do people take "time off" to do rotations, they take time off to interview for the Match as well. We keep it quiet. And there's a lot of "what they don't know can't hurt them." It doesn't always work, and there are a few people in every year who do not manage to fulfill all the requirements to get back home in time for Matching in the final year. This is a big issue we have with the whole situation that's happening this year with jobs.

JUst wondering, how were you able to do an away rotation without telling you r school? dont you need some sort of signature from the dean or anything like that? how were you able to bypass all that and do an away during the middle of the year
thanks