Eli5: how will the merger affect specialties like fm, pmr, psych?

[AlbinoHawk DO]

210s is the bottom of the barrel. I would say >220

Still good enough for Psych, FM, PM&R and IM. Of course, 220+ is more desirable.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

When I checked FREIDA online, the most common minimum Step 1 score required for a psych interview was 220.

I checked a lot of places, they said passing or 200+ preferred.

 

[deleted731525]

Hillary being reelected with a high 80% chance? Bad example I imagine lol, the majority of presidents are reelected.

lol

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

lol

hate u

 

[TheaterOfTheme]

hate u

Hey, everyone agreed with you at the time.

 

[Peach Newport]

Medical students stressed, worrying, and catastrophizing?? NO WAY.

 

[zero0]

Medical students stressed, worrying, and catastrophizing?? NO WAY.

Just a friendly reminder that it's all gonna be ok guys. Keep studying, keep working hard, don't fail anything, and you'll match. No one really cares what specialty you go into except you. Even if you match FM, the field is so ridiculously versatile that you can basically do anything you want, i.e. hospitalist, EM, derm, OBGYN, etc. People who look down on FM docs are just sad human beings. You'll make plenty of money if you make that your priority and you'll be able to pay down all that debt, unless it's over 300k... then you're basically a doctor slave, but that's ok because you'd do the job for free anyway, right?

PS edited to remove cancer, sorry guys

 

[SilveoDante]

Just a friendly reminder that it's all gonna be ok guys. Keep studying, keep working hard, don't fail anything, and you'll match. No one really cares what specialty you go into except you. Even if you match FM, the field is so ridiculously versatile that you can basically do anything you want, i.e. hospitalist, EM, derm, OBGYN, etc. People who look down on FM docs are just sad human beings. You'll make plenty of money if you make that your priority and you'll be able to pay down all that debt, unless it's over 300k... then you're basically a doctor slave, but that's ok because you'd do the job for free anyway, right?

My sister (a psych) paid off $412,000 in 5 years (partly due to locums). People have a hard time paying off large amounts of debt due to not being savvy or living a lifestyle > means before paying off their debt (i.e. "Well, I'll only pay what they ask me for and keep the rest for some Hugo Boss or a 5 series lease").

 

[zero0]

My sister (a psych) paid off $412,000 in 5 years (partly due to locums). People have a hard time paying off large amounts of debt due to not being savvy or living a lifestyle > means before paying off their debt (i.e. "Well, I'll only pay what they ask me for and keep the rest for some Hugo Boss or a 5 series lease").

Yeah I was kidding, it's definitely possible.

 

[Peach Newport]

My sister (a psych) paid off $412,000 in 5 years (partly due to locums). People have a hard time paying off large amounts of debt due to not being savvy or living a lifestyle > means before paying off their debt (i.e. "Well, I'll only pay what they ask me for and keep the rest for some Hugo Boss or a 5 series lease").

Okay then mister smarty pants, then how do you propose I keep my 10/10 girlfriend? She's sure as hell not dating me for my looks or my winning personality.

 

[68PGunner]

Okay then mister smarty pants, then how do you propose I keep my 10/10 girlfriend? She's sure as hell not dating me for my looks or my winning personality.

You're just awesome in bed using your OMM skills.

 

[Peach Newport]

.

 

[Peach Newport]

You're just awesome in bed using your OMM skills.

I mean, I still can't tell a type 1 from a type 2 somatic dysfunction, but you'd best beleive my intravaginal HVLA is on point #doctorsthatDO

 

[68PGunner]

I mean, I still can't tell a type 1 from a type 2 somatic dysfunction, but you'd best beleive my intravaginal HVLA is on point #doctorsthatDO

You just need to resist her abduction and adduction of the knees in order to loosen her pubic symphysis. Automatic 2+ on the original score of your sexual performance.

 

[Peach Newport]

You just need to resist her abduction and adduction of the knees in order to loosen her pubic symphysis. Automatic 2+ on the original score of your sexual performance.

Dude what on earth kind of sex are you into

 

[W19]

WTF is going on here?

 

[Peach Newport]

WTF is going on here?

Oh s**t its the cops! run!

 

[zero0]

I mean, I still can't tell a type 1 from a type 2 somatic dysfunction, but you'd best beleive my intravaginal HVLA is on point #doctorsthatDO

low amplitude huh? that's okay it's the motion of the ocean that matters

 

[68PGunner]

low amplitude huh? that's okay it's the motion of the ocean that matters

He likes quickies.

 

[Giovanotto]

You just need to resist her abduction and adduction of the knees in order to loosen her pubic symphysis. Automatic 2+ on the original score of your sexual performance.

After one semester of OMM, I can already understand these jokes!

 

[FBurnaby]

I mean, I still can't tell a type 1 from a type 2 somatic dysfunction, but you'd best beleive my intravaginal HVLA is on point #doctorsthatDO

I think muscle energy near the pubic symphysis is best ascertained by performing a stork test and then inserting the glans penis at a 45 degree angle from the vertebra.

Love the Jewish dermatology reference

 

[SLC]

Still good enough for Psych, FM, PM&R and IM. Of course, 220+ is more desirable.

I can't speak for psych and PM&R; but for FM and/or IM a 210 is borderline not good enough these days. Certainly not for a decent program.

 

[Yadster101]

I can't speak for psych and PM&R; but for FM and/or IM a 210 is borderline not good enough these days. Certainly not for a decent program.

But most DO schools have an average around ~225-230, which means 50% of students get below that score. That means there's a lot of students (both MD and DO) that have a 205-210. Whats gonna happen to these students? Are you just saying that these students likely won't end up at UMich for FM residency, or are you saying that at 80% of all FM residency programs they have a 50/50 shot? If it's the latter then should we be telling people with low comlex/step to dropout, since their residency chances are 50/50?

 

[SLC]

But most DO schools have an average around ~225-230, which means 50% of students get below that score. That means there's a lot of students (both MD and DO) that have a 205-210. Whats gonna happen to these students? Are you just saying that these students likely won't end up at UMich for FM residency, or are you saying that at 80% of all FM residency programs they have a 50/50 shot? If it's the latter then should we be telling people with low comlex/step to dropout, since their residency chances are 50/50?

I'm saying that the better programs have averages higher than 210.
Recently converted, former AOA programs probably won't though.

But I don't think I've interviewed anyone with less than a 230 this year at my program. And plenty of 250+ applicants too.

 

[the argus]

I can't speak for psych and PM&R; but for FM and/or IM a 210 is borderline not good enough these days. Certainly not for a decent program.

I'm saying that the better programs have averages higher than 210.
Recently converted, former AOA programs probably won't though.

But I don't think I've interviewed anyone with less than a 230 this year at my program. And plenty of 250+ applicants too.

Your point of view is incredibly skewed.

30% of the USMDs that matched into FM last year had a step 1 <210. 50% were <220. So you're saying 1/3 of USMDs that matched into FM last year are at programs that aren't "decent." Those are pretty strong words for someone who had to SOAP into a FM program a few years ago.

And 5% (66/1280) of USMDs that applied to FM last year had a step 1 >250. I would guess "plenty of 250+ applicants" is also a bit of a stretch.

 

[SLC]

Your point of view is incredibly skewed.

30% of the USMDs that matched into FM last year had a step 1 <210. 50% were <220. So you're saying 1/3 of USMDs that matched into FM last year are at programs that aren't "decent." Those are pretty strong words for someone who had to SOAP into a FM program a few years ago.

And 5% (66/1280) of USMDs that applied to FM last year had a step 1 >250. I would guess "plenty of 250+ applicants" is also a bit of a stretch.

I don't know why you have this enormous chip on your shoulder. All I can relate is that I had a 230. And our program has been interviewing mainly in the 230's-240's with plenty of 250's mixed in. I've interviewed 6 or 7 of them myself and I know there are plenty of others based on our ranking meetings.

 

[the argus]

I don't know why you have this enormous chip on your shoulder. All I can relate is that I had a 230. And our program has been interviewing mainly in the 230's-240's with plenty of 250's mixed in. I've interviewed 6 or 7 of them myself and I know there are plenty of others based on our ranking meetings.

Because what you imply by your posts has no basis in reality, and I think it would be helpful to actually present a realistic view of the situation.

 

[Peach Newport]

But most DO schools have an average around ~225-230, which means 50% of students get below that score. That means there's a lot of students (both MD and DO) that have a 205-210. Whats gonna happen to these students? Are you just saying that these students likely won't end up at UMich for FM residency, or are you saying that at 80% of all FM residency programs they have a 50/50 shot? If it's the latter then should we be telling people with low comlex/step to dropout, since their residency chances are 50/50?

Yo...

That is NOT what "average" means. That is what median means (I think).

Average does NOT mean that half are above, and half are below.

For test scores, the average is usually going to be lower than the median, because the lowest-scorers are dragging that average down. You can easily be above the average and not even in the 40th percentile.

If 1 person gets a zero, and 3 people get 100, the average is a 75. If you get an 80, you may be above the average, but you're still below the median.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

But most DO schools have an average around ~225-230, which means 50% of students get below that score. That means there's a lot of students (both MD and DO) that have a 205-210. Whats gonna happen to these students? Are you just saying that these students likely won't end up at UMich for FM residency, or are you saying that at 80% of all FM residency programs they have a 50/50 shot? If it's the latter then should we be telling people with low comlex/step to dropout, since their residency chances are 50/50?

I'm genuinely interested in knowing which DO schools have 225-230 average. The couple "well-established" schools I know have a step1 average below 220. Please keep in mind that this doesn't even account for the fact that half of the class doesn't participate in the USMLE.

I agree with the point you are trying to make, however. 230 is the average score for step1 (229 actually), so statistically speaking, half of those who took it scored below 230. Primary care specialties tend to take the lion share of the bottom half of applicants. Therefore, it's a fair assumption that the vast majority of people going into FM have scores lower than 230.

SLC attends a prestigious program (I think I have an idea which one it is). I wouldn't be surprised that his program interviews top of the crop FM applicants on a regular basis. Therefore, the fact that his program interviews people with boards scores 2 STDV above that of the average FM applicant doesn't make FM more competitive than it has historically been.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm genuinely interested in knowing which DO schools have 225-230 average. The couple "well-established" schools I know have a step1 average below 220. Please keep in mind that this doesn't even account for the fact that half of the class doesn't participate in the USMLE.

I agree with the point you are trying to make, however. 230 is the average score for step1 (229 actually), so statistically speaking, half of those who took it scored below 230. Primary care specialties tend to take the lion share of the bottom half of applicants. Therefore, it's a fair assumption that the vast majority of people going into FM have scores lower than 230.

SLC attends a prestigious program (I think I have an idea which one it is). I wouldn't be surprised that his program interviews top of the crop FM applicants on a regular basis. Therefore, the fact that his program interviews people with boards scores 2 STDV above that of the average FM applicant doesn't make FM more competitive than it has historically been.

If every student at KCU took the USMLE I'd imagine our average would probably drop to around 220. But we have 80% taking it with an average of 224-225 with a high score around 260.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I'm genuinely interested in knowing which DO schools have 225-230 average.

Off the top of my head KCU, RVU, and LECOM I know for sure. (A smaller percentage of the class takes it at LECOM compared to the other two) in fairly certain that DMU is there as well but my interview was a little farther back AM de I don't remember the exact numbers.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If every student at KCU took the USMLE I'd imagine our average would probably drop to around 220. But we have 80% taking it with an average of 224-225 with a high score around 260.

At my interview they told me either 227 or 228, i can't remember which one specifically.

 

[Yadster101]

I'm genuinely interested in knowing which DO schools have 225-230 average. The couple "well-established" schools I know have a step1 average below 220. Please keep in mind that this doesn't even account for the fact that half of the class doesn't participate in the USMLE.

.

I was just guessing the average to be close to MD schools. If DO schools have an average lower than my estimation then it's even more puzzling why people arent more worried. I think that SLC should have clarified that he attends a super prestigious FM program...either that or thousands of DO students will be left w/o a residency in a few years.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

At my interview they told me either 227 or 228, i can't remember which one specifically.

I think 227 or 228 were what we had early in the season until some late scores came in. But the final number is 224. Which admittedly is pretty good. Plenty of people in the middle of the class were hitting the average for the country without complications.

 

[W19]

@SLC likes to inflate his program 'prestigiousness'...

 

[SLC]

@SLC likes to inflate his program 'prestigiousness'...

Do I?

I just tell things like they are from where I sit. It would be irresponsible for me to tell it differently.

Plus, there's really no such thing as "prestigious" in FM programs. There are more academically rigorous and less rigorous programs. And there are programs connected to strong universities with lots of resources and programs with less. Usually what people look for is a program that's unopposed or minimally opposed too. But "prestige" isn't a word usually used when talking about Family Medicine residencies.

 

[the argus]

Do I?

I just tell things like they are from where I sit. It would be irresponsible for me to tell it differently.

Plus, there's really no such thing as "prestigious" in FM programs. There are more academically rigorous and less rigorous programs. And there are programs connected to strong universities with lots of resources and programs with less. Usually what people look for is a program that's unopposed or minimally opposed too. But "prestige" isn't a word usually used when talking about Family Medicine residencies.

Well, maybe you've never used the word prestige, but wholly jesus...

I did, but trust me, my program isn't one that people want to steer clear of. It's a Doximity top 20 program (out of about 450)

You're right, last year was the first time in well ever, that my program didn't fill. Doesn't change the fact that it's a top ranked program, that regularly ranks and matches DO's. And fills with MD's from elite schools too.

Let's put it this way:

My program currently is about 75% MD, and those MD's come from 4 different Ivies, and a smattering of other elite Allopathic schools.

And this year, I'd say 75% of our applicants have been from MD schools anyone on here would call elite. I've already listed the ones the majority have come from.

Naah, it got derailed when you took offense to my post and decided to focus on how I described my program and ignore the whole point of why I mentioned it in the first place: That it's a top ranked program that consistently gets applications from students at the most well regarded med schools in the country, and could fill up with those applicants, but still takes DO's year over year.

You got all worried that a DO was in an elite residency program and spent most of the day yesterday searching for a way to prove that it wasn't really true.

It's easy to see through you SkinMD! The schitck is nothing new.

Ha ha, I worried that might strike a nerve with you.

My only point in bringing it up is that this is an elite program, one of the top ranked one's in the country. And also one of the oldest and most established. They don't have to embrace DO's the way they do; it's a calculated decision they've made. This year I've interviewed multiple applicants to the program from places like: Harvard, Hopkins, Brown, UCSF, Vanderbilt, Duke, UNC, Cornell, UM, Stanford etc. The program clearly isn't taking DO's out of necessity.

This is possible, but I would automatically assume that TRI's go away, especially when they're allowing programs to retain "osteopathic recognition", and yes, some AOA programs have not applied for it, but a handful of previously ACGME programs have applied for "osteopathic recognition" already as well.

My program, an Ivy League program BTW, may very well apply for osteopathic recognition. They already sponsor an OMM clinic for the DO residents and interested MD residents. And a few of the MD faculty have even gone through OMM training and use and bill for it/supervise residents with it in clinic.

The next few years will be interesting. But I don't get the sense that the ACGME is looking for a hostile takeover as much as a shared set of GME standards.

that took me about 5 minutes from 1 or 2 threads that I remembered you being particularly pretentious. Can't imagine what I would find if I looked at your entire posting history.

 

[SLC]

--snip--

Creepy, I always get a weirdo vibe whenever someone remembers some thing I (or anyone else) said a year or so ago.

I'm sorry if my description of the place I do residency at bothers you. But nothing I said is innacurate.

But we're drifting off topic now so please join me in allowing the thread to get back on the rails.

 

[LutGholein]

Here's the thing...

THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE GETTING INTO. LOL

An outpatient rotation does not teach you much.... it is the inpatient aspect where REAL psychiatry is witnessed imo.

Everybody sees the hours and pay like it's sooo great.... and then they are stuck in a room as a resident with a 300 pound heroin addict who just got out of his halfway house threatening to commit suicide needing psychiatric hospitalization.

No facility will probably want to take him in... so you are stuck with him.

I'll take a specialty where A) my patients don't berate me or call me a ****ing dingus and mothereffer for keeping them in psychiatric hold for 3 days when they thought they would be released at 10:00 AM after they signed a voluntary hold form, B) I do not need security guards to conduct any interview on a patient who is off of his/her rocker, C) I do not get spit on, thrown urine or feces at, or threatened that my whole family will be killed if I do not do something for them, D) I need to remove any pens, necklaces, rings, and/or "sharp" items (cause my reading glasses may be used as a damn shank) before I go in with an actual squad of nurses and security to restrain a "combative" patient....

oh... and can't forget E) when they try to attack you.

I have personally seen a poor psych nurse get absolutely manhandled and tossed like an absolute ragdoll by an ex college football player...

She apparently didn't "approach" him the right way as the dude was trying to get his meds from the counter. All she asked was for him to politely step away from the window where the residents and doctors were.

No offense to my good psychiatrists out there but yeeaaaa....

**** get's deep.

This is why Peds is king man, you're not gonna get a 4 year old trying to snap your neck. Children in general are a pretty good bunch of patients--maybe it's because a lot of my working/researching experience was at a children's hospital but it's a joy working with kids!

So the takeaway here is that psych(outpatient) is pretty chill as long as you don't piss off former college football players.

I learn a lot from you guys--even if half this thread is filled with satire/hyperbole.

 

[W19]

@SLC seems to like the word 'elite' a lot... It's a FM program for God sake! You are going to be a FM doc after all; the big gun specialists won't care...

Nothing against FM since I might be applying to FM or IM next year...

 

[SLC]

@SLC seems to like the word 'elite' a lot... It's a FM program for God sake! You are going to be a FM doc after all; the big gun specialists won't care...

Nothing against FM since I might be applying to FM or IM next year...

Context is a hard concept to grasp...for some folks.

 

[68PGunner]

@SLC seems to like the word 'elite' a lot... It's a FM program for God sake! You are going to be a FM doc after all; the big gun specialists won't care...

Nothing against FM since I might be applying to FM or IM next year...

The West Coast people are super competitive. I am pretty sure that I know SLC FM program.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that he doesn't care much about whether he's a FM relative to the other big guns when he's cranking 300+K in net as a FM doc.

It's all good. As long as we bust our balls and try our best, all of us will do well. When your basement is 200K/yr in the worst case scenario, that's a pretty decent deal.

 

[zero0]

@SLC seems to like the word 'elite' a lot... It's a FM program for God sake! You are going to be a FM doc after all; the big gun specialists won't care...

Nothing against FM since I might be applying to FM or IM next year...

Agreed, you cede all rights to partake in prestige whoring when you go into FM... Which should be a liberating thing IMO

 

[SLC]

…Anyway, I'm pretty sure that he doesn't care much about whether he's a FM relative to the other big guns when he's cranking 300+K in net as a FM doc.

I love what I do, that's all I care about.

 

[Peach Newport]

I love what I do, that's all I care about.

Hey, can you tell me a bit of the things you love about FM? Real question, I don't know anyone in FM.

 

[IslandStyle808]

When I checked FREIDA online, the most common minimum Step 1 score required for a psych interview was 220.

I doubt it is a lot of programs. More than 300 MD students matched with a score below a 220. This is about 30% of MDs who matched, this going down all the way to the 192 barely pass mark.

 

[sazerac]

I doubt it is a lot of programs. More than 300 MD students matched with a score below a 220. This is about 30% of MDs who matched, this going down all the way to the 192 barely pass mark.

I'm just telling you what I saw in FREIDA. The strange thing is, a lot of these same programs with 220 minimum to interview also report that their current resident average is 220.

Therefore, according to FREIDA data psych has suddenly and quite recently become so competitive that at many sites about half of the current psych residents wouldn't even qualify for an interview at their own program!

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

This is why Peds is king man, you're not gonna get a 4 year old trying to snap your neck. Children in general are a pretty good bunch of patients--maybe it's because a lot of my working/researching experience was at a children's hospital but it's a joy working with kids!

So the takeaway here is that psych(outpatient) is pretty chill as long as you don't piss off former college football players.

I learn a lot from you guys--even if half this thread is filled with satire/hyperbole.

don't let that secret out.

 

[DetectiveAlonzo]

I'm just telling you what I saw in FREIDA. The strange thing is, a lot of these same programs with 220 minimum to interview also report that their current resident average is 220.

Therefore, according to FREIDA data psych has suddenly and quite recently become so competitive that at many sites about half of the current psych residents wouldn't even qualify for an interview at their own program!

lol

chillax homie.

 

[hallowmann]

Yeah so I was curious, had a bit of time, and figured what the heck. I randomly check the first 60 Psych programs on Freida. About 1/3-1/2 don't list data, and of those that did, the highest cutoff for Step 1 was 210, and that was only one program. Most were either 192, 200 or 205. Averages of recent residents were almost across the board 201-220, but a couple were 221-240.

Yeah, I mean unless that first 60 on the list are very unrepresentative of most psych program (they constitute like 30% of them), then I kind of doubt the majority have cutoffs on Freida of 220.