Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
And insulting people and mischaracterizing what they say in an obvious attempt to get a rise out of them so you can point to that and then “win” is the same tactic some of my less mature girlfriends have used.

If you think you can respond to my actual points instead of your own version of the debate and can do so without being insulting or rude, then let me know and we can continue the conversation.


This must be your first interaction with Mr Vector.
Insults and condescension are par for the course
 
About the Ads

nimbus

Member
10+ Year Member
Jan 14, 2006
6,063
7,115
Status
Out of curiousity, do you think the fact that police in those nations are useless and corrupt might influence the numbers given that they clearly aren’t actually enforcing anything resembling order?
Only in those nations?
 

nimbus

Member
10+ Year Member
Jan 14, 2006
6,063
7,115
Status
Those are the ones you mentioned. You’ll need to more completely flesh out your point if you need a specific response
I was referring to our own nation. I’ve had several interactions with police and they were useless every single time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neopolymath

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
And are you really placing the blame for the death on the cops and not the ketamine? Cmon now.

Your last statement is pure conjecture.
Are you saying that the IM ketamine dose alone would induce the 2 MIs and kill an otherwise healthy kid?
 

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
Also - reopen Elijah McClain for the same reason it took months (and video....) to get the dudes who hunted Arbery. Video of these incidents is imperative. Why do you think the police dept fought so hard to keep the video of Daniel Shavers murder out of the public’s viewing eyes until the trial was over?

Not all cops are bad. But oddly they kill lots of black men when called for very mild reasons.

if you guys don’t believe cops are responsible for the escalation of situations and what ensues then I don’t believe the conversation is honest.
 

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
Are you saying that the IM ketamine dose alone would induce the 2 MIs and kill an otherwise healthy kid?
I'm saying the overdose of ketamine is most likely the largest culprit in his death, and much more likely to have been the contributing factor, as opposed to the police doing a choke hold or holding the kid on the ground. Especially in a kid who has an underlying coronary artery abnormality and who was physically exhausting himself struggling with the police.
 

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
Not all cops are bad. But oddly they kill lots of black men when called for very mild reasons.
This statement is based on......?

if you guys don’t believe cops are responsible for the escalation of situations and what ensues then I don’t believe the conversation is honest.
And if you don't believe that citizens have a responsibility to cooperate with law enforcement and not escalate what could otherwise be peaceful interactions, then i don't believe the conversation is honest either.
 

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
I'm saying the overdose of ketamine is most likely the largest culprit in his death, and much more likely to have been the contributing factor, as opposed to the police doing a choke hold or holding the kid on the ground. Especially in a kid who has an underlying coronary artery abnormality and who was physically exhausting himself struggling with the police.
what was the coronary abnormality?

so chokehold to the point of passing out (bilateral carotid occlusion), wrestling/beating?, catecholamine deplete, and large dose of ketamine? Cops hold no responsibility there, huh? Nor the paramedics?

so at minimum multi-factorial. the ketamine was an awful idea given the scenario (he wasn’t resisting when it was given) and in my opinion those paramedics shouldn’t be allowed to give it. They have serious knowledge gaps.
 
About the Ads

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
@Matty44 the statement is based on the names of black men killed by police and my reading/interpretation of the events. I won’t spoonfeed you the info. It’s all easy enough to find.
 

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
This was written by the husband of one of our neurosurgeons. Things could have been clarified right away but the police had no incentive to protect his rights.

Ok, so what happened to this navy seal was wrong, obviously, but why is it assumed to be racist? Where's the proof? He certainly didn't mention anything about the encounter that would suggest the cops were being racist, he just claimed racism and horrible treatment. Horrible treatment, yes. They called him a liar and unjustly jailed him, yes. But you can't just assume because he is black and the officers were white that it is racism. Unless he's leaving out other details where he was called racial slurs or pejoratives, or they said other things that would imply they held a racial bias to him, but why would he do that in an article decrying racist treatment of himself? The worst they called him, according to himself, was a liar.

This exact encounter has probably occurred at some point in time with a white person and white cops and no one would ever claim racism, obviously, just awful policing. But simplybe cause there is a difference in race between the cops and the navy seal it must be racism?

Racism is such a harsh claim that it must be backed with proof. And all too often, that proof seems sorely lacking.
 

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
This statement is based on......?



And if you don't believe that citizens have a responsibility to cooperate with law enforcement and not escalate what could otherwise be peaceful interactions, then i don't believe the conversation is honest either.
we have differing belief with regard to ‘responsibility to cooperate’, ‘not escalate’, and ‘otherwise peaceful’. Not shocking.
 

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
what was the coronary abnormality?

so chokehold to the point of passing out (bilateral carotid occlusion), wrestling/beating?, catecholamine deplete, and large dose of ketamine? Cops hold no responsibility there, huh? Nor the paramedics?

so at minimum multi-factorial. the ketamine was an awful idea given the scenario (he wasn’t resisting when it was given) and in my opinion those paramedics shouldn’t be allowed to give it. They have serious knowledge gaps.

Coroner stated that he had a narrow coronary artery contributed to his death, that's all I really know about that.

The intent of a choke hold is to make someone temporarily pass out and subdue them in a safe way to avoid further struggling and injury to both the cop and the combatant. Yes, there was wrestling with an uncooperative/combatant person and the cops. I agree with all your saying. I'm saying without the ketamine, the likelihood of him dying is very low. And I've stated previously that the paramedics hold a huge amount of the responsibility here. Unnecessary drug in an abnormal dose. For sure the paramedics F-ed up. I don't believe the cops acted in any way that wasn't justified particularly. It's tough to tell exactly if there use of force in getting the guy on the ground and controlling him on the ground was excessive since there isn't any footage of it. But the fact that they but him in a choke hold and were restraining him while he was being combative seems justified.
 

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
Ok, so what happened to this navy seal was wrong, obviously, but why is it assumed to be racist? Where's the proof? He certainly didn't mention anything about the encounter that would suggest the cops were being racist, he just claimed racism and horrible treatment. Horrible treatment, yes. They called him a liar and unjustly jailed him, yes. But you can't just assume because he is black and the officers were white that it is racism. Unless he's leaving out other details where he was called racial slurs or pejoratives, or they said other things that would imply they held a racial bias to him, but why would he do that in an article decrying racist treatment of himself? The worst they called him, according to himself, was a liar.

This exact encounter has probably occurred at some point in time with a white person and white cops and no one would ever claim racism, obviously, just awful policing. But simplybe cause there is a difference in race between the cops and the navy seal it must be racism?

Racism is such a harsh claim that it must be backed with proof. And all too often, that proof seems sorely lacking.
you search for proof beyond what is clear and obvious. That’s fine. But you stop at the point where you actually need to go find that evidence because you know that’s impossible. So you’d rather sit tight and believe something that obviously appears and seems racist, isn’t, and why again? Oh, simple bad policing. That’s right.

they said he was lying about being a Seal and serving his country. Why? They charged him with unlawfully firing his Mom’s weapon. Why?
 
  • Like
Reactions: vector2

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
@Matty44 the statement is based on the names of black men killed by police and my reading/interpretation of the events. I won’t spoonfeed you the info. It’s all easy enough to find.
You don't need to spoonfeed me any info, I'm well aware. I was just more curious if you knew the actual data of unarmed black men killed by police that you would need to be aware of to make a claim like you did.
 

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
36,263
67,085
4th Dimension
You say something “clearly isn’t a threat” from your high horse in hindsight. That’s not the right mindset to be judging these situations from. The cops were not aware of this guy’s cat serenading prowess prior to their interaction.

You still don’t seem to be able to distinguish between armchair quarterbacking and someone interpreting in the moment what they view as a threatening action from someone, particularly when their partner tells them someone is reaching for their gun. Put your self in that cops shoes for two seconds if you can. It’s dark outside (10:30), man in mask, who you’ve known for a total of 30 seconds, is being physically uncooperative, not following simple instructions, tussling with you and ranting about whatever, and then your partner says “he’s going for your gun!”

You telling me you wouldn’t feel justified for taking that guy to the ground in a choke hold? Even if after the fact you realize you never felt him reach for your gun? (Which btw, seems irrelevant. If someone reached for your gun and came up an inch short, would you feel anything? Anyways...) What if that cop was your son? Would you criticize him for taking the guy down then? If you can’t sympathize with that rationale in the moment I don’t think you’re being honest with yourself.

And you keep saying innocent man. Innocent before interacting with police. After cops show up, he is now guilty of resisting arrest, potential harming a cop, etc. You keep saying innocent man like the cops tackled him from behind without warning and just murdered him for no reason. We both know that’s not at all the case. Let’s have some intellectual honesty here please.



Also....you’re using “literally” wrong
Okay, he was literally murdered because he wasn't acting "normal" and was black. That constitutes no crime, and if you are resisting arrest that was unlawful to begin with, I'd say you've done literally nothing wrong, hence literally nothing.

If you make a bad call and kill an innocent man, you're a murderer, period, end of story. Being a cop doesn't give you a pass
 
Last edited:

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
you search for proof beyond what is clear and obvious. That’s fine. But you stop at the point where you actually need to go find that evidence because you know that’s impossible. So you’d rather sit tight and believe something that obviously appears and seems racist, isn’t, and why again? Oh, simple bad policing. That’s right.

they said he was lying about being a Seal and serving his country. Why? They charged him with unlawfully firing his Mom’s weapon. Why?
Clear and obvious is in the eye of the beholder apparently.

Your path of logic (and the navy seals) appears to go something like this. Black man, white cop. Poor treatment of black man by white cop, therefore, racism.

That might hold some water if there was never poor treatment of white men by white cops....or by black cops....or poor treatment of black man by black cops. But that's not the case.

Like I said, you seem to ignore the fact that a white person has probably been called a liar by the cops before and jailed wrongfully. And in that situation, where races are the same, you can claim nothing but bad cops. Yet, as soon as the color of the person wrongfully jailed changes, its automatically clear and obvious racism? That's a weak argument.
 

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
Coroner stated that he had a narrow coronary artery contributed to his death, that's all I really know about that.

The intent of a choke hold is to make someone temporarily pass out and subdue them in a safe way to avoid further struggling and injury to both the cop and the combatant. Yes, there was wrestling with an uncooperative/combatant person and the cops. I agree with all your saying. I'm saying without the ketamine, the likelihood of him dying is very low. And I've stated previously that the paramedics hold a huge amount of the responsibility here. Unnecessary drug in an abnormal dose. For sure the paramedics F-ed up. I don't believe the cops acted in any way that wasn't justified particularly. It's tough to tell exactly if there use of force in getting the guy on the ground and controlling him on the ground was excessive since there isn't any footage of it. But the fact that they but him in a choke hold and were restraining him while he was being combative seems justified.
right. That footage isn’t there because the bodycams were conveniently pointing at the ground the whole time while a kid got the **** beat out of him.

the ketamine, without the chokehold/beating/wrestling/loss of consciousness/catecholamine depletion, does little to nothing from a MI/death standpoint. I can confidently say that. Especially if he were treated appropriately and respectfully by real medical personnel.

The narrow coronary artery is nothing.
 
Last edited:
About the Ads

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
Okay, he was literally murdered because he wasn't acting "normal" and was black. That constitutes no crime, and if you are resisting arrest that was unlawful to begin with, I'd say you've done literally nothing wrong, hence literally nothing.

If you make a bad call and kill an innocent nam, you're a murderer, period, end of story. Being a cop doesn't give you a pass
Alright, its pretty clear that you are set on your opinion that he did literally nothing and was killed for being autistic and black. To each his own.
 

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
Clear and obvious is in the eye of the beholder apparently.

Your path of logic (and the navy seals) appears to go something like this. Black man, white cop. Poor treatment of black man by white cop, therefore, racism.

That might hold some water if there was never poor treatment of white men by white cops....or by black cops....or poor treatment of black man by black cops. But that's not the case.

Like I said, you seem to ignore the fact that a white person has probably been called a liar by the cops before and jailed wrongfully. And in that situation, where races are the same, you can claim nothing but bad cops. Yet, as soon as the color of the person wrongfully jailed changes, its automatically clear and obvious racism? That's a weak argument.
before we declare race played no factor here it’s imperative you produce proof the white cops involved also produced false charges on a white guy and kept him in jail needlessly overnight. Since you cant do that it’s easy enough for me to trust the author, an apparent honorable source.

I dont have the history with you that others do, but it’s apparent to me you want to go down a rabbit hole of ifs, maybes, and whataboutism trying to show what is clearly racist, isn’t. I’m not sure why. I guess you don’t feel racism exists, or not to the level that I do? Or that black males aren’t harmed more unnecessarily by our police forces? I don’t get the angle you’re playing.

I dont care for the hours of time wasted. No opinions will be changed. Take the last word and take care.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vector2

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
before we declare race played no factor here it’s imperative you produce proof the white cops involved also produced false charges on a white guy and kept him in jail needlessly overnight. Since you cant do that it’s easy enough for me to trust the author, an apparent honorable source.

I dont have the history with you that others do, but it’s apparent to me you want to go down a rabbit hole of ifs, maybes, and whataboutism trying to show what is clearly racist, isn’t. I’m not sure why. I guess you don’t feel racism exists, or not to the level that I do? Or that black males aren’t harmed more unnecessarily by our police forces? I don’t get the angle you’re playing.

I dont care for the hours of time wasted. No opinions will be changed. Take the last word and take care.
Not trying to go down any rabbit holes. My point was simple and remains as such, that you can't/shouldn't claim racism without proof. It's a very bold and heavy claim and should not be made lightly or hastily. Simply stating that poor treatment by cops = racism is a sorely insufficient argument. Its clear that cops treat many people poorly, of all races. Similarly, you can't claim that cops are racist cause they kill "lots of black men for very mild reasons," because cops kill lots of white men for very mild reasons too, a la Daniel Shaver. The data just doesn't support a racial disparity of unarmed killings by cops. And back to the navy seal, he provided literally zero evidence of racism. Again, plenty of evidence of poor, unjust treatment, but no evidence of racism.

It's as hollow of a claim as someone who doesn't get a job and they instantly blame the employer of being racist simply because the person who got the job was white and they weren't. Could the employer be racist, sure, anyone COULD be racist, but without evidence, it falls flat.

If someone called you racist, wouldn't you want that person to provide some clear evidence of that racism before the public believed your accuser?
If you were the employer who hired a white person over a black person for strictly meritorious reasons, would you appreciate being called a racist?

There's so much division in our country right now, its eating us away. Largely political, and largely fueled by race. And in my opinion, anytime some screams racism without justification, it only tears us that much farther apart as a society. Show me proof of racism I'll stand by you on the mountain top and call it out harshly and demand punishment for the racist, but it better be real. If its not, like so many of these high profile stories turn out to be, it take us two steps back for every step forward we take IMO. Michael Brown, Jesse Smollett, the Covington kids, "nooses" in the trees in Oakland, "nooses" in nascar garages, and on and on and on it goes. The media and others frantically cry racism from the drop of the hat, and time and time again once the facts come out, the cries ring hollow. But the damage is already done. And I'm not saying there's never a real case of racism, don't get me wrong here.

Wait for the facts. Call out racism where it TRULY exists. Otherwise, you risk dulling the ears of those who are prone to skepticism, and having them ignore you when the claims ARE truly warranted. Ya know, that whole boy-wolf thing.

I of course agree that racism exists. It will always exist, people are human and are flawed. I don't agree with the narrative de jour however that black men are being slaughtered en masse by a system of racist cops. The numbers don't bear it out. Are different people of different races and different levels of affluence treated differently by cops during non-lethal interactions? Probably. And the reasons for that are very complicated and multi-factorial, and whether or not a person is treated worse than any other group of people during any one interaction is probably largely subjective. I'm not black, and I can't know anyone else's personal experience with police, or how they feel, so I won't/can't speak to that. But I do know that when its being regularly portrayed to young black kids that cops are "hunting black people in the streets" or "slaughtering black men every day" or that "police killing black people is a pandemic" that can't be helpful for any potential future interactions they will have with the police, and it definitely drives more and more of a wedge into our society.

Ok, that's all I'll say for now. Hopefully you understand a bit better where I'm coming from.
 
Last edited:

vector2

Airway, Browser, Coffee, Donut
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Dec 26, 2006
3,508
4,808
Status
Attending Physician

Good example of one of those places where the sheriff's office and the local government are both so corrupt that they can flat out refuse to get bodycams. Keep in mind, this is a department with more money than most and it is a department that's notorious for shooting unarmed people. Of note, it's also adjacent to the NOPD, another notoriously corrupt department which has bodycams because that was one of the orders imposed as a consequence of the federal consent decree that they're still under.
 

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student

Good example of one of those places where the sheriff's office and the local government are both so corrupt that they can flat out refuse to get bodycams. Keep in mind, this is a department with more money than most and it is a department that's notorious for shooting unarmed people. Of note, it's also adjacent to the NOPD, another notoriously corrupt department which has bodycams because that was one of the orders imposed as a consequence of the federal consent decree that they're still under.
Sounds like something we can all get behind there. Heck, I’d even be fine if that was something that was funded federally for every law enforcement agency in the country. Body cams for all cops is way more important that a lot of the junk we waste taxpayer $$$ on.

 
  • Like
Reactions: vector2

nimbus

Member
10+ Year Member
Jan 14, 2006
6,063
7,115
Status
Here is a man illegally violating a public health order. Sheriff’s deputies went to shut him down and he angrily refused to comply. It is unclear to me why he was not thrown on the ground, choked, and darted with 500mg of ketamine. The deputies seem downright deferential. Why can’t Black kids get the same treatment?


 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: gasmark

sb247

Doer of things
7+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
22,632
37,931
Galt's Gulch
forums.studentdoctor.net
Here is a man illegally violating a public health order. Sheriff’s deputies went to shut him down and he angrily refused to comply. It is unclear to me why he was not thrown on the ground, choked, and darted with 500mg of ketamine. The deputies seem downright deferential. Why can’t Black kids get the same treatment?


This guy was a known quantity who was violating an govt order about opening a business, not an unidentifiable guy in the dark in a ski mask accused of “acting suspicious” who refused to stop walking when asked by cops then resisted when they put hands on him.

I don’t know if that jurisdiction calls opening your business an arrestable offense or not, but an intellectual honesty would admit those are not the same situations
 

Southpaw

Lifetime Donor
15+ Year Member
Aug 12, 2004
1,417
1,171
Status
Attending Physician
This guy was a known quantity who was violating an govt order about opening a business, not an unidentifiable guy in the dark in a ski mask accused of “acting suspicious” who refused to stop walking when asked by cops then resisted when they put hands on him.

I don’t know if that jurisdiction calls opening your business an arrestable offense or not, but an intellectual honesty would admit those are not the same situations
In my opinion this is all about power and control. Police officers like to keep the balance of power and control in their favor, and when they are unable to do that, bad things happen and typically not to the police officers. That business owner could be construed as endangering the lives of those police officers by 1) not wearing a mask and 2) not maintaining social distancing. Perhaps those aren't laws, but based on my reading in this thread if those officers decided to arrest him, and he resisted (a relative term of course, and open to interpretation....), then those officers are all of a sudden granted immense privilege to subdue him in whatever means necessary. Bilateral carotid occlusion (wouldn't shocked me a bit if an occluded carotid in that guy induced a clot breakoff and stroke BTW.....), chokeholds, over-aggressive maneuvers to subdue/handcuff. I don't want to assume, but from discussing this particular issue on this forum for months now, what me and other posters are saying is that cops should not be given a 'whatever means necessary' decree to arrest however they want once they make the decision to do so. They also can't be given a 'get out of jail free' card whenever they screw it up as we've seen them do time and time again. They need to be held accountable.

i haven't watched the whole Elijah McClain video. I simply can't stomach it. But there's a reason those bodycams are pointing at the ground the whole time. Also, importantly, from my understanding he was walking down a sidewalk. Is that private property? It's likely public so Elijah had every right to be there and to walk and wear whatever clothing he wanted. Who cares if the kid, who is alone, is walking down a public sidewalk waving his arms with a ski mask on. If you're in the public and that scares you, then it's on you to leave. He was unarmed. I just find it disgusting that I'm talking with fellow physicians about a healthy kid who goes from walking down a sidewalk to 2MIs in route to a hospital to dead a couple days later, and enough posters respond with 'well he resisted....'.

That business owner resisted. He was insulting. He called those cops buffoons and told them to leave. He would've been just as right to do so without all the insulting. And the point is that over the last few years we haven't seen many videos of black men being even far less insulting to police officers (minding their own business, honestly....) and even surviving the encounters. Are statistics all that matter? Or should our public officers be held to higher standards for every encounter THEY INITIATE, as stewards of the law, trusted by the public, PAID by the public? My opinion is the latter.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nimbus

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
In my opinion this is all about power and control. Police officers like to keep the balance of power and control in their favor, and when they are unable to do that, bad things happen and typically not to the police officers. That business owner could be construed as endangering the lives of those police officers by 1) not wearing a mask and 2) not maintaining social distancing. Perhaps those aren't laws, but based on my reading in this thread if those officers decided to arrest him, and he resisted (a relative term of course, and open to interpretation....), then those officers are all of a sudden granted immense privilege to subdue him in whatever means necessary. Bilateral carotid occlusion (wouldn't shocked me a bit if an occluded carotid in that guy induced a clot breakoff and stroke BTW.....), chokeholds, over-aggressive maneuvers to subdue/handcuff. I don't want to assume, but from discussing this particular issue on this forum for months now, what me and other posters are saying is that cops should not be given a 'whatever means necessary' decree to arrest however they want once they make the decision to do so. They also can't be given a 'get out of jail free' card whenever they screw it up as we've seen them do time and time again. They need to be held accountable.

i haven't watched the whole Elijah McClain video. I simply can't stomach it. But there's a reason those bodycams are pointing at the ground the whole time. Also, importantly, from my understanding he was walking down a sidewalk. Is that private property? It's likely public so Elijah had every right to be there and to walk and wear whatever clothing he wanted. Who cares if the kid, who is alone, is walking down a public sidewalk waving his arms with a ski mask on. If you're in the public and that scares you, then it's on you to leave. He was unarmed. I just find it disgusting that I'm talking with fellow physicians about a healthy kid who goes from walking down a sidewalk to 2MIs in route to a hospital to dead a couple days later, and enough posters respond with 'well he resisted....'.

That business owner resisted. He was insulting. He called those cops buffoons and told them to leave. He would've been just as right to do so without all the insulting. And the point is that over the last few years we haven't seen many videos of black men being even far less insulting to police officers (minding their own business, honestly....) and even surviving the encounters. Are statistics all that matter? Or should our public officers be held to higher standards for every encounter THEY INITIATE, as stewards of the law, trusted by the public, PAID by the public? My opinion is the latter.
Of course police should be held to high standards, and accountable for every time they act out of accordance with their policies and if they violate personal rights of citizens. They also have to have some cooperation from citizens in order to do their job. It was their job to investigate a suspicious person report. So when they try to stop and question the guy they are being called to investigate and he refuses to stop or cooperate, what would you have them do? Just let him walk away? What if he took off sprinting when they tried to stop him? Just curious how you think they should have dealt with him.

I feel like many people refuse to recognize, either intentionally or unintentionally, that cops are gravely injured or killed during what should otherwise be benign interactions not that infrequently. Every simple traffic stop could be their last. So they operate, rightly so, from a defensive, perhaps paranoid, standpoint all the time. I’m sure they didn’t view Elijah McClain as a gentle, quirky, innocent, harmless, maybe autistic kid. They viewed him as an unknown, reportedly suspicious male in a ski mask walking around late afternoon night. That’s it. They have no idea if he’s on drugs when they pull up. They don’t know if he’s armed. They are not operating with hindsight knowledge. And because of those facts, I’m willing to give them leeway to deal with people swiftly and even aggressively (within the bounds of police policy of course) when they are being non-cooperative/combative/resisting/whatever.

But in trying to understand how you view these incidents I’m curious, do you feel the same way about the Rayshard Brooks as Elijah McClain?
 
About the Ads

TJRock

2+ Year Member
Mar 27, 2017
15
18
Status
Non-Student
Colombia - 19 firearm homicides per 100,000. 34.1 fatalities by police per 10 million.

US. - 4.5 firearm homicides per 100,000. 46.6 fatalities by police per 10 million.
Interesting source for the statistics for the US. Below is from the "Readme" file attached to the spreadsheet produced by FatalEncounters.org, the source of the statistics.

Fatal Encounters documents non-police deaths that occur when police are present or are precipitated by police action or presence. Officer deaths are included when caused by another officer, including friendly fire incidents, and criminal actions—like domestic violence—and suicides that occur when other officers are present. Officer vehicle-related deaths are included when they are caused by another officer. Homicides of officers by felons or deaths in the regular course of duties are not generally documented in the database.
I'm not sure that anyone rational would suggest that there are never any justified killings by the police, but justified killings are included in the data. I'm not sure why suicides that are committed while the police are present, people dying of drug overdoses/intoxication after police were called, hostages that were killed by their assailant while the police were trying to end the hostage situation or deaths that occurred when law enforcement used no force in the situation are included, but they are.
 
  • Like
Reactions: nimbus

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
36,263
67,085
4th Dimension
I think I’ve already explained multiple times what I saw from the body cam footage. You see it totally differently for whatever reason.
What chargeable offense resulted in the police confronting him? What crime did he commit that merited his treatment at the hands of law enforcement in this manner?
 

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
What chargeable offense resulted in the police confronting him? What crime did he commit that merited his treatment at the hands of law enforcement in this manner?
Again, I've already explained this before. The police had every right to stop him and talk to him. They are doing their duty by investigating a call about a suspicious person. CO is a "stop and identify" state. Mr McClain had every responsibility to stop when asked to do so and talk with the police. Him getting hands placed on him and eventually taken to the ground was the result of his refusing to cooperate, refusing to calm down, and grabbing for the officer's gun. Don't know how much more simply put I can make it than that.
 

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
36,263
67,085
4th Dimension
Again, I've already explained this before. The police had every right to stop him and talk to him. They are doing their duty by investigating a call about a suspicious person. CO is a "stop and identify" state. Mr McClain had every responsibility to stop when asked to do so and talk with the police. Him getting hands placed on him and eventually taken to the ground was the result of his refusing to cooperate, refusing to calm down, and grabbing for the officer's gun. Don't know how much more simply put I can make it than that.
You clearly don't know your rights. There was no crime he was suspected of committing and he fully has the right to refuse to speak to them. This is basic stuff. You do not have to respond to an officer if they do not have a crime they actively suspect you of having committed. The only question you are required to answer for an officer in some states is your name. They clearly had no evidence of a crime being committed (being "suspicious" is not a crime) and they do not have the right to search you without suspicion of a specific crime in question. This is libertarian "how to deal with police 101." The problem is if you are black exercising your rights in the same manner as a white person can and will get you killed. The idea that you have to respect police officers and do as they say is not true, period. The idea that even doing so will save you is also not true, as evidenced by any number of police shootings in which people are face down on the ground and still get shot. So yeah, they violated his rights, and if he were alive he would have a great chance to sue them. Furthermore the footage is not good because officers intentionally did not mount their cameras correctly.

 

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
You clearly don't know your rights. There was no crime he was suspected of committing and he fully has the right to refuse to speak to them. This is basic stuff. You do not have to respond to an officer if they do not have a crime they actively suspect you of having committed. The only question you are required to answer for an officer in some states is your name. They clearly had no evidence of a crime being committed (being "suspicious" is not a crime) and they do not have the right to search you without suspicion of a specific crime in question. This is libertarian "how to deal with police 101." The problem is if you are black exercising your rights in the same manner as a white person can and will get you killed. The idea that you have to respect police officers and do as they say is not true, period. The idea that even doing so will save you is also not true, as evidenced by any number of police shootings in which people are face down on the ground and still get shot. So yeah, they violated his rights, and if he were alive he would have a great chance to sue them. Furthermore the footage is not good because officers intentionally did not mount their cameras correctly.

In Colorado...

16-3-103. Stopping of suspect (1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A peace officer shall not require any person who is stopped pursuant to this section to produce or divulge such person's social security number. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest. (2) When a peace officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this section and reasonably suspects that his personal safety requires it, he may conduct a pat-down search of that person for weapons.


If he wanted to act appropriately and observe his right to remain silent, he should have stopped, asked the officer if he was under arrest or free to go, and then left. He did not do that. He was immediately uncooperative by refusing to stop, and that's what started the escalation of the situation.

Please stop pushing the narrative that cops kill people simply cause they are black. Its a verifiably false narrative.
 

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
36,263
67,085
4th Dimension
In Colorado...

16-3-103. Stopping of suspect (1) A peace officer may stop any person who he reasonably suspects is committing, has committed, or is about to commit a crime and may require him to give his name and address, identification if available, and an explanation of his actions. A peace officer shall not require any person who is stopped pursuant to this section to produce or divulge such person's social security number. The stopping shall not constitute an arrest. (2) When a peace officer has stopped a person for questioning pursuant to this section and reasonably suspects that his personal safety requires it, he may conduct a pat-down search of that person for weapons.


If he wanted to act appropriately and observe his right to remain silent, he should have stopped, asked the officer if he was under arrest or free to go, and then left. He did not do that. He was immediately uncooperative by refusing to stop, and that's what started the escalation of the situation.

Please stop pushing the narrative that cops kill people simply cause they are black. Its a verifiably false narrative.
They kill people because they are black. Their inherent biases have been shown again and again to affect their decisions in these cases. Noncompliance with an officer does not merit lethal force.


With regard to the law, he could have approached things differently but the police had no reason to actually suspect a crime aside from the fact he was black and wearing a face covering. That's not evidence, period. Their biases led to his murder.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Goro and gasmark

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
They kill people because they are black. Their inherent biases have been shown again and again to affect their decisions in these cases. Noncompliance with an officer does not merit lethal force.
As I asserted previously, harsh claims of racism, especially cries that people are MURDEROUSLY racist, requires proof. That proof does not exist. About 1000 people were shot and killed by cops last year, the vast majority armed and dangerous. About 25% of those were black. Of those ~250 blacks shot, somewhere between 9-15 were unarmed, while somewhere between 19-25 were unarmed whites. Quote data, not narratives.
 

vector2

Airway, Browser, Coffee, Donut
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Dec 26, 2006
3,508
4,808
Status
Attending Physician
Interesting source for the statistics for the US. Below is from the "Readme" file attached to the spreadsheet produced by FatalEncounters.org, the source of the statistics.



I'm not sure that anyone rational would suggest that there are never any justified killings by the police, but justified killings are included in the data. I'm not sure why suicides that are committed while the police are present, people dying of drug overdoses/intoxication after police were called, hostages that were killed by their assailant while the police were trying to end the hostage situation or deaths that occurred when law enforcement used no force in the situation are included, but they are.
You raise an interesting point, which is that we'd all prefer an auditable government agency like the FBI as the primary source for data about the number of killings by police. Unfortunately, it was discovered by the Washington Post and others that the data compiled by the FBI after Obama instructed them to do so was missing over half of the verifiable fatalities out there.



This led WaPo and the Guardian to start their own compilation projects, however the most complete ones to date are the ones from Mapping Police Biolence and Fatal Encounters. FE, as the readme says, adds every single instance where the police were involved and someone died to its database, but the database has filters so you can exclude all the instances you bring up which are irrelevant to the question at hand.

Unfortunately, whoever added the wikipedia entry for the US at 46/10mil did not describe which filters they used to arrive at that number. Say we put FE aside and go with WaPo which only includes shootings, they have found consistently that the rate has been a bit over a thousand a year which puts the per capita at ~30 / 10mil. That number has also been confirmed by the Guardian which did their own analysis. However, including only shootings means we've excluded chokeholds, beatings, tasering etc, so George Floyd or Elijah McClain wouldn't even be in there. If we spitball a rate of say 33-35 / 10 mil to make up for those, we are still in pretty bad shape compared to countries with similar firearm homicide rates.
 
Apr 6, 2019
68
94
Status
Non-Student
I feel like many people refuse to recognize, either intentionally or unintentionally, that cops are gravely injured or killed during what should otherwise be benign interactions not that infrequently. Every simple traffic stop could be their last. So they operate, rightly so, from a defensive, perhaps paranoid, standpoint all the time. I’m sure they didn’t view Elijah McClain as a gentle, quirky, innocent, harmless, maybe autistic kid.
I think one of the biggest PR jobs that law enforcement and fire has put on has been this idea that their jobs are so incredibly deadly and dangerous. LEOs rank 16th on the list of deadly jobs. You're almost 4x more likely to die being an garbage truck driver than a cop.


And maybe that's the problem. Maybe they should have thought of him as an innocent kid first. What in the world is wrong with walking around with a ski mask on in a public place? Yeah maybe if you're hiding in the bushes outside a window with a boombox playing the pink panther soundtrack there may be an issue but come on. Your quoting of the laws notes that there must be a reasonable suspicion of that individual committing/preparing to commit/having just committed a crime, not sure that was here.

And if he started to run? Let him go. Nobody saw him commit a crime.

This was a failure of the system on a ridiculous number of levels. LEO training, bias, EMS response (and agreement to administer sedation to a calm restrained individual).

Any thoughts on why they removed their cams?
 

Matty44

CAA
10+ Year Member
Oct 2, 2007
1,057
158
Status
Non-Student
" "Until now, there's never been a systematic, nationwide study to determine the characteristics of police involved in fatal officer-involved shootings," said Joseph Cesario, co-author and professor of psychology at MSU. "There are so many examples of people saying that when black citizens are shot by police, it's white officers shooting them. In fact, our findings show no support for the idea that white officers are biased in shooting black citizens." "



"Concerns that White officers might disproportionately fatally shoot racial minorities can have powerful effects on police legitimacy (31). By using a comprehensive database of FOIS during 2015, officer race, sex, or experience did not predict the race of a person fatally shot beyond relationships explained by county demographics. On the other hand, race-specific violent crime strongly predicted the race of a civilian fatally shot by police, explaining over 40% of the variance in civilian race. These results bolster claims to take into account violent crime rates when examining fatal police shootings (20).

We did not find evidence for anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparity in police use of force across all shootings, and, if anything, found anti-White disparities when controlling for race-specific crime."



" In stark contrast to non-lethal uses of force, we find no racial differences in officer-involved shootings on either the extensive or intensive margins. Using data from Houston, Texas – where we have both officer-involved shootings and a randomly chosen set of potential interactions with police where lethal force may have been justified – we find, in the raw data, that blacks are 23.8 percent less likely to be shot at by police relative to whites. Hispanics are 8.5 percent less likely. Both coefficients are statistically insignificant."

" Even when officers report civilians have been compliant and no arrest was made, blacks are 21.3 (0.04) percent more likely to endure some form of force. Yet, on the most extreme use of force – officer-involved shootings – we are unable to detect any racial differences in either the raw data or when accounting for controls. "


The last study does confirm what I said earlier, that non-lethal interaction between officers and black people do seem to be different than with white people, and that it is multi-factorial and not something that I'm able to speak to really. But it confirms my point, as do the other studies above, that the narrative of cops killing people for the crime of being black is a false one.
 

sb247

Doer of things
7+ Year Member
Jul 5, 2012
22,632
37,931
Galt's Gulch
forums.studentdoctor.net
In my opinion this is all about power and control. Police officers like to keep the balance of power and control in their favor, and when they are unable to do that, bad things happen and typically not to the police officers. That business owner could be construed as endangering the lives of those police officers by 1) not wearing a mask and 2) not maintaining social distancing. Perhaps those aren't laws, but based on my reading in this thread if those officers decided to arrest him, and he resisted (a relative term of course, and open to interpretation....), then those officers are all of a sudden granted immense privilege to subdue him in whatever means necessary. Bilateral carotid occlusion (wouldn't shocked me a bit if an occluded carotid in that guy induced a clot breakoff and stroke BTW.....), chokeholds, over-aggressive maneuvers to subdue/handcuff. I don't want to assume, but from discussing this particular issue on this forum for months now, what me and other posters are saying is that cops should not be given a 'whatever means necessary' decree to arrest however they want once they make the decision to do so. They also can't be given a 'get out of jail free' card whenever they screw it up as we've seen them do time and time again. They need to be held accountable.

i haven't watched the whole Elijah McClain video. I simply can't stomach it. But there's a reason those bodycams are pointing at the ground the whole time. Also, importantly, from my understanding he was walking down a sidewalk. Is that private property? It's likely public so Elijah had every right to be there and to walk and wear whatever clothing he wanted. Who cares if the kid, who is alone, is walking down a public sidewalk waving his arms with a ski mask on. If you're in the public and that scares you, then it's on you to leave. He was unarmed. I just find it disgusting that I'm talking with fellow physicians about a healthy kid who goes from walking down a sidewalk to 2MIs in route to a hospital to dead a couple days later, and enough posters respond with 'well he resisted....'.

That business owner resisted. He was insulting. He called those cops buffoons and told them to leave. He would've been just as right to do so without all the insulting. And the point is that over the last few years we haven't seen many videos of black men being even far less insulting to police officers (minding their own business, honestly....) and even surviving the encounters. Are statistics all that matter? Or should our public officers be held to higher standards for every encounter THEY INITIATE, as stewards of the law, trusted by the public, PAID by the public? My opinion is the latter.
There is a lot of straw men in there.
 

vector2

Airway, Browser, Coffee, Donut
Lifetime Donor
10+ Year Member
Dec 26, 2006
3,508
4,808
Status
Attending Physician
We already beat the Johnson-Cesario study (and others) to death in the ultimate COVID thread. Bottom line is that the methodology was flawed and they actually had to concede a mistake in the way they characterized their conclusions



Additionally, there was a letter to the editor in PNAS explaining what the data from Cesario actually showed when parsed accurately


------------
Young unarmed nonsuicidal male victims of fatal use of force are 13 times more likely to be Black than White


A recent PNAS article reports “no evidence of anti-Black or anti-Hispanic disparities across [fatal] shootings” by police officers (ref. 1, p. 15877). This claim is based on the results of a regression model that suggested “a person fatally shot by police was 6.67 times less likely (odds ratio [OR] = 0.15 [0.09, 0.27]) to be Black than White” (ref. 1, p. 15880). The article also claims the results “do not depend on which predictors are used” (ref. 1, p. 15881). These claims are misleading because the reported results apply only to a subset of victims and do not control for the fact that we would expect a higher number of White victims simply because the majority of US citizens are White.

The published odds ratio of 0.15 is based on a regression model that made the intercept correspond to a county with 4 times more White (50%) than Black (12%) citizens. In addition, the intercept of the model corresponds to a country where White homicide rates equal 1) Black homicide rates and 2) Hispanic homicide rates and where victims are 3) average age (36.71 y) and White and Black victims are equally likely to 4) have mental health problems, 5) be suicidal, 6) be armed, and 7) attack an officer. We found that including suicidal as a predictor had the strongest effect on the intercept, which doubled the odds of the victim being White (OR = 0.24 vs. 0.49). In contrast, adjusting only for differences in Black and White homicide rates left the intercept unchanged (OR = 0.48 vs. 49). Thus, the main contribution of the regression analysis is to show that that the odds of a victim being White double when the percentage of suicidal victims increases from 11% in the actual population to 50% in a hypothetical population. The fact that older suicidal victims are disproportionally more likely to be White shows that not all victims of lethal use of force are violent criminals.

Although use of force with citizens who suffer from mental health problems is an important issue, another important issue is use of force for young, unarmed, mentally healthy (nonsuicidal) men. To examine racial disparities in this group, we specified an alternative model that focused on young (age 20 y), unarmed male victims that showed no signs of mental health problems and were not suicidal in a county with equal proportions of Black and White citizens. The intercept of this model suggested that victims with these characteristics are 13.67 times more likely to be Black than White, 95% confidence interval = 6.65, 28.13 (Racial Disparity in Fatal Use of Force).

The stark contrast between the published finding and our finding contradicts Johnson et al.’s (1) claims that their results hold across subgroups of victims. Contrary to this claim, their data are entirely consistent with the public perception that young male victims of fatal use of force are disproportionally Black. Importantly, neither the original finding nor our finding addresses the causes of racial disparities among victims of deadly use of force. Our results merely confirm other recent findings that racial disparities exist and that they are particularly large for young males (2).
-----------

 
Last edited:

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
36,263
67,085
4th Dimension
As I asserted previously, harsh claims of racism, especially cries that people are MURDEROUSLY racist, requires proof. That proof does not exist. About 1000 people were shot and killed by cops last year, the vast majority armed and dangerous. About 25% of those were black. Of those ~250 blacks shot, somewhere between 9-15 were unarmed, while somewhere between 19-25 were unarmed whites. Quote data, not narratives.

 

Mad Jack

Critically Caring
5+ Year Member
Jul 27, 2013
36,263
67,085
4th Dimension
About the Ads