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thegreatandmythical227

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Just found out that I won't meet the marks for AOA this year, and thus am eliminated from junior AOA. At my school, you need a certain amount of honors points each year to be considered, and I just barely missed honors in the module (.14 points) and I am out of contention. What's crazy is that I feel like we miss so much in our curriculum for step 1, and some of our exams just don't do a good job on testing our knowledge, with so much minutia mixed in with vague 1st order questions that. Only thing left is senior AOA which is based on clerkship, and I've heard evals are so inconsistent. Should I just put all my effort toward step 1 now? Any warming advice?


P.S) Gen surgery, radiation oncology and IR/DR are the specialties I'm looking towards
 
thegreatandmythical227 said:
Just found out that I won't meet the marks for AOA this year, and thus am eliminated from junior AOA. At my school, you need a certain amount of honors points each year to be considered, and I just barely missed honors in the module (.14 points) and I am out of contention. What's crazy is that I feel like we miss so much in our curriculum for step 1, and some of our exams just don't do a good job on testing our knowledge, with so much minutia mixed in with vague 1st order questions that. Only thing left is senior AOA which is based on clerkship, and I've heard evals are so inconsistent. Should I just put all my effort toward step 1 now? Any warming advice?


P.S) Gen surgery, radiation oncology and IR/DR are the specialties I'm looking towards
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As opposed to? Laying down and giving up?

You're fine. Even if you don't get AOA, your life will carry on.
 
21Rush12 said:
The answer was always Step 1. AOA is a nice bonus but Step >>> honors societies
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From time to time, I've wondered if this is just propaganda. If OP wants IR they're going to need AOA to stay in. If I were OP I'd consider this a major setback.
 
jhenj529 said:
From time to time, I've wondered if this is just propaganda. If OP wants IR they're going to need AOA to stay in. If I were OP I'd consider this a major setback.
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Did you make the “UFAP is a scam” thread, by any chance? Not criticizing you whatsoever I’ve just not encountered that idea anywhere before and it’s an interesting take.

Junior AOA is something like 10-15 people out of a class of 150. Odds are that you won’t get it. You can still be top quartile in class and have excellent grades preclinical/clinical.

I don’t think it’s nearly as important as you think it is and some schools don’t even have chapters. While IR appears to care, the PD survey had only 15 responses out of the 83 programs listed on FREIDA. Only 30.5% of people matching in IR at the last available survey were AOA members. While it’s important and helps, it’s not going to bar you from the specialty not having AOA. The picture for Step 1 is much more convincing in my opinion, with a mean score of 246 for matched applicants and nobody matching below 220.
 
I missed out on AOA, and still matched into a very competitive specialty. It is not the end of the world to be just below the cut: looking at the 2018 U.S. Seniors outcomes data (the 2019 report isn't available yet), there are plenty of people who weren't in AOA that matched into competitive specialties, including IR.

Do well on your boards. During 3rd year, make a good effort to be present, learn, and contribute to your teams in whatever ways you can, and you will be just fine.
 
21Rush12 said:
Did you make the “UFAP is a scam” thread, by any chance? Not criticizing you whatsoever I’ve just not encountered that idea anywhere before and it’s an interesting take.

Junior AOA is something like 10-15 people out of a class of 150. Odds are that you won’t get it. You can still be top quartile in class and have excellent grades preclinical/clinical.

I don’t think it’s nearly as important as you think it is and some schools don’t even have chapters. While IR appears to care, the PD survey had only 15 responses out of the 83 programs listed on FREIDA. Only 30.5% of people matching in IR at the last available survey were AOA members. While it’s important and helps, it’s not going to bar you from the specialty not having AOA. The picture for Step 1 is much more convincing in my opinion, with a mean score of 246 for matched applicants and nobody matching below 220.
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I did. I'm just being realistic with OP. A kid in my class says that he only does school lectures, becuase according to him, they teach you how to think critically, not just memorize. He says he'a not doing anything board related till dedicated. Just trying to present both sides to OP
 
21Rush12 said:
Did you make the “UFAP is a scam” thread, by any chance? Not criticizing you whatsoever I’ve just not encountered that idea anywhere before and it’s an interesting take.

Junior AOA is something like 10-15 people out of a class of 150. Odds are that you won’t get it. You can still be top quartile in class and have excellent grades preclinical/clinical.

I don’t think it’s nearly as important as you think it is and some schools don’t even have chapters. While IR appears to care, the PD survey had only 15 responses out of the 83 programs listed on FREIDA. Only 30.5% of people matching in IR at the last available survey were AOA members. While it’s important and helps, it’s not going to bar you from the specialty not having AOA. The picture for Step 1 is much more convincing in my opinion, with a mean score of 246 for matched applicants and nobody matching below 220.
Click to expand...
Little Green Mensch said:
I missed out on AOA, and still matched into a very competitive specialty. It is not the end of the world to be just below the cut: looking at the 2018 U.S. Seniors outcomes data (the 2019 report isn't available yet), there are plenty of people who weren't in AOA that matched into competitive specialties, including IR.

Do well on your boards. During 3rd year, make a good effort to be present, learn, and contribute to your teams in whatever ways you can, and you will be just fine.
Click to expand...

Eh i understand the encouragement and what you're saying but it's still a tough pill to take in when competitive programs and specialties use AOA to quickly identify top applicants from schools that aren't top tiers or well known. I guess what's done is done so your advice is helpful to guide next steps
 
Lawper said:
Eh i understand the encouragement and what you're saying but it's still a tough pill to take in when competitive programs and specialties use AOA to quickly identify top applicants from schools that aren't top tiers or well known. I guess what's done is done so your advice is helpful to guide next steps
Click to expand...

But it’s Junior AOA.
 
VincentAdultman said:
But it’s Junior AOA.
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Missed that part and it's good news for OP that they still have a chance. Sorry didn't want to upset the thread but was just a bit cautious (and maybe paranoid) after getting the importance of AOA drilled on me elsewhere on here and in specialty forums :bag::sorry:
 
Lawper said:
Eh i understand the encouragement and what you're saying but it's still a tough pill to take in when competitive programs and specialties use AOA to quickly identify top applicants from schools that aren't top tiers or well known. I guess what's done is done so your advice is helpful to guide next steps
Click to expand...
Lawper said:
Missed that part and it's good news for OP that they still have a chance. Sorry didn't want to upset the thread but was just a bit cautious (and maybe paranoid) after getting the importance of AOA drilled on me elsewhere on here and in specialty forums :bag::sorry:
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So I was right all along. It was all propaganda. Anyone can do well on step. Aoa is an accomplishment
 
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Lawper said:
Missed that part and it's good news for OP that they still have a chance. Sorry didn't want to upset the thread but was just a bit cautious (and maybe paranoid) after getting the importance of AOA drilled on me elsewhere on here and in specialty forums :bag::sorry:
Click to expand...

Yeah senior AOA is where the moneys at. Pretty sure that’s available for apps. But since I was never at any point in consideration for AOA it was never something I paid attention to so take it FWIW.
 
jhenj529 said:
So I was right all along. It was all propaganda. Anyone can do well on step. Aoa is an accomplishment
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I’m not sure that’s the conclusion to be made. What has your experience been with step 1 that led you to this conclusion? In my view of the available data from NRMP the presence of AOA on an app will help but it’s absence is unlikely to hurt.
 
21Rush12 said:
I’m not sure that’s the conclusion to be made. What has your experience been with step 1 that led you to this conclusion? In my view of the available data from NRMP the presence of AOA on an app will help but it’s absence is unlikely to hurt.
Click to expand...
I haven't taken it yet, but that's the mantra I hear from AOA recipients
 
21Rush12 said:
I’m not sure that’s the conclusion to be made. What has your experience been with step 1 that led you to this conclusion? In my view of the available data from NRMP the presence of AOA on an app will help but it’s absence is unlikely to hurt.
Click to expand...

Correct

OP sounds like one of those folks who has never failed at something in life (which tbh is the case for most of SDN). This is such a minor setback. You’ll still be a doctor in a field that you like.
 
jhenj529 said:
So I was right all along. It was all propaganda. Anyone can do well on step. Aoa is an accomplishment
Click to expand...
Not sure I see the propaganda you're referring, but I think everything matters if aiming for super competitive specialties/programs or keeping all doors open. OP's not completely out of the running for AOA so that's key.

I think most people here are emphasizing doing well on Step exams and clinical years, as well as getting good research and letters. AOA's an extra bonus to all these.

Although from what OP said:

thegreatandmythical227 said:
Only thing left is senior AOA which is based on clerkship, and I've heard evals are so inconsistent.
Click to expand...

Seems like after Step, they should work on doing well on clinicals.
 
I didn’t make AOA because I didn’t do enough community service. Will it hurt you? Yes. Can you do anything about it? No. Forget about it and drive on
 
Lawper said:
Not sure I see the propaganda you're referring, but I think everything matters if aiming for super competitive specialties/programs or keeping all doors open. OP's not completely out of the running for AOA so that's key.

I think most people here are emphasizing doing well on Step exams and clinical years, as well as getting good research and letters. AOA's an extra bonus to all these.

Although from what OP said:



Seems like after Step, they should work on doing well on clinicals.
Click to expand...
A little backtracking here, but that's okay. I personally was told that schools would rather see a 220/230 + AOA rather than 260 and no AOA. What people don't mention is that based on the standard deviation that a 230 is no different than a 240
 
AOA induction is not standardized. Step 1 is. PDs are looking for the most objective proxy measures for passing ITEs/boards. Step 1 over everything. Shout out to STEP1GOD on reddit, lol. AOA is just a bonus. Not having AOA will never hurt you. At some schools, AOA is purely a popularity contest.

I've never heard of PDs filtering apps based on AOA. I've heard about them filtering based on step a million times.
 
jhenj529 said:
I personally was told that schools would rather see a 220/230 + AOA rather than 260 and no AOA.
Click to expand...

This is just not true, lol. The data does not bare it out. I would take a 250 with no AOA over 230 with AOA. A 250 means that you've surpassed any filters (official or not) for all programs in the most competitive of specialties. All doors remain open.
 
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jhenj529 said:
A little backtracking here, but that's okay. I personally was told that schools would rather see a 220/230 + AOA rather than 260 and no AOA. What people don't mention is that based on the standard deviation that a 230 is no different than a 240
Click to expand...


I understand it’s what someone told you but it’s not the case in reality as we can see in the NRMP match data.

I was told aluminum in my deodorant would give me Alzheimer’s because my aunt was particularly swayed by a Facebook post she saw. The facts just don’t match up.

If you told me I could trade my step 1 score for AOA and a 225, I can’t imagine a scenario in which I would accept that trade. Not all schools even have AOA to begin with. Performing in the top 10-15% of all medical students on the most highly valued standardized measure of your knowledge is objectively more important than an honors society membership. Again, AOA is a great bonus to give something to set apart, but it’s just that: bonus. Entry isn’t even standard across programs, as one above poster mentioned community service being a part of their school’s selection while many use pure class ranking. I don’t want to minimize anyone’s achievements and AOA is something to be proud of, I just think it’s not nearly as important as you’ve been led to believe through your experiences.

Edit to add: the “240=230” thing — I think you’re talking about the standard error of measurement. The scores are still very different, that range describes the precision of the tool (Step 1 exam) at assessing the test taker. We choose to use the score as the center of the prediction of actual score for practical purposes. That simply says the range someone would score given multiple administrations of the test based on scoring data.
 
jhenj529 said:
A little backtracking here, but that's okay. I personally was told that schools would rather see a 220/230 + AOA rather than 260 and no AOA. What people don't mention is that based on the standard deviation that a 230 is no different than a 240
Click to expand...

as someone who matched this year that is definitely not true. Step 1/2 scores outweigh selection to AOA in almost all cases. AOA selection can be variable. AOA can be a "popularity" contest at some schools. Some schools don't have an AOA chapter (usually these schools are very competitive for admission though). At some schools AOA can be determined by non-academic factors. Step 1 is incredibly standardized. A high step 1 scorer almost always will have a better fund of knowledge and clinical acumen than those who score less. Step 1 is a well known quantity.
 
jhenj529 said:
A little backtracking here, but that's okay. I personally was told that schools would rather see a 220/230 + AOA rather than 260 and no AOA. What people don't mention is that based on the standard deviation that a 230 is no different than a 240
Click to expand...
Do you believe everything someone who did not get a steller step score tells you?
257212


Step score is a much more important deciding factor in terms of placement in competitive specialties. Cant even get an interview if you get screened out by the step score before they even screen for AOA. Programs want it all, but if they could had to select one thing , the data is fairly clear that they end up selecting STEP.
257214

257215


If you are so sure of this advice that you have recieved you should follow it, and be ok with getting a 220. Afterwards let us know how you discovered a passion for primary care.
 
libertyyne said:
Do you believe everything someone who did not get a steller step score tells you?
View attachment 257212

Step score is a much more important deciding factor in terms of placement in competitive specialties. Cant even get an interview if you get screened out by the step score before they even screen for AOA. Programs want it all, but if they could had to select one thing , the data is fairly clear that they end up selecting STEP.
View attachment 257214
View attachment 257215

If you are so sure of this advice that you have recieved you should follow it, and be ok with getting a 220. Afterwards let us know how you discovered a passion for primary care.
Click to expand...
In fairness, a lot of this data is cherry picked. For those upcoming M4s that are reading, there's a difference between being selected to interview and actually being ranked to match. When you consider everything, AOA is likely more important. The fact of the matter is that AOA membership is stunning achievement while step score proves you were are drone who could memorize first aid.
 
jhenj529 said:
From time to time, I've wondered if this is just propaganda. If OP wants IR they're going to need AOA to stay in. If I were OP I'd consider this a major setback.
Click to expand...
A bunch of schools have been dropping AOA over the last few years and given the caliber of the schools doing it, I’m guessing they don’t have issues getting kids into IR. That means the programs are willing to completely ignore AOA status. Haven’t heard of any programs saying they’re going to start treating step 1 as pass/fail and go “score blind.”
 
MSTP18 said:
A bunch of schools have been dropping AOA over the last few years and given the caliber of the schools doing it, I’m guessing they don’t have issues getting kids into IR. That means the programs are willing to completely ignore AOA status. Haven’t heard of any programs saying they’re going to start treating step 1 as pass/fail and go “score blind.”
Click to expand...
90% percent of IR programs ranked AOA as an important factor
 
Lawper said:
I feel that the Step vs AOA arguments are similar to MCAT vs GPA arguments, and in both cases, the standardized exam wins out because of its objective nature.
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It’s an even dumber argument because AOA might not even be based on academic achievement. The only hard and fast rule is the percentage of the class that can be selected.
 
MSTP18 said:
It’s an even dumber argument because AOA might not even be based on academic achievement. The only hard and fast rule is the percentage of the class that can be selected.
Click to expand...

You're right, but I kinda wish AOA was somewhat better standardized across schools rather than appearing academic in some and a popularity contest in others.
 
AOA is popularity contest for sure in my school. Top 25 percent get in 3rd year grades get picked and but only 16 percent or something can get it. So basically the ones that were involved most in school's committees and well known to deans get selected.
As long as you are in the top 25th percentile in my school, AOA chances are purely luck and popularity
 
Lawper said:
I feel that the Step vs AOA arguments are similar to MCAT vs GPA arguments, and in both cases, the standardized exam wins out because of its objective nature.
Click to expand...
Ehh, I feel like those are each weighted somewhat equally (40% each) with MCAT being more important after you get a 3.8++. The other 20% are ECs. Plus each of those metrics can be fit into some formula. But this is a totally different conversation. AOA is a crowning achievement. You either get points for it, or you don't. There's no half AOA/
 
jhenj529 said:
A bit misleading. Most likely there's a margin of error there. A 4.3 = 3.9 basically. At worst case, they are both equal
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lol.
You are basing all of this based on some senior who didnt do well on step and still was awarded AOA.
If you are soo sure of this , why not try it out yourself no need to slave over a step 1 score when you can just get AOA.
Every specialties match rate is directly correlated with step 1 score. It doesnt take a math degree to figure out its importance.
 
jhenj529 said:
AOA is a crowning achievement.
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I highly doubt that especially when you're comparing the importance of AOA vs. steps 1+2.

At my school AOA was based off nebulous non-academic factors like "excellence" and "service". But to even be in the running you need someone ELSE to nominate you. Queue in the circle jerk of the student council crowd all trying to salvage their otherwise lackluster academic record on preclinicals/boards/shelves with the addition of three more letters. Not saying everyone who got AOA was like that but in my class they were the predominant recipients.

Someone else made a good point: would you take a 20 point hit to step 1 in exchange for AOA? 10? Based on the data I definitely wouldn't.
 
@jhenj529 youre being a huge nuisance on these forums. No, AOA is not a “crowning achievement”, its an award that some people get and others dont often despite stellar records and personal achievement.
What i find most annoying is your comparison between AOA and board exams. Theyre not comparable. AOA doesnt make up for ****ty board scores. You dont know what youre talking about.
 
jhenj529 said:
In fairness, a lot of this data is cherry picked. For those upcoming M4s that are reading, there's a difference between being selected to interview and actually being ranked to match. When you consider everything, AOA is likely more important. The fact of the matter is that AOA membership is stunning achievement while step score proves you were are drone who could memorize first aid.
Click to expand...

Didn’t you say you haven’t yet taken Step 1?

Programs aren’t interviewing people they’re not interested in taking, that serves no purpose. Yes the entire application is considered in ranking, but AOA is not necessary to make that cut.

I’m not sure what has you so dug in on this theory, but it’s really not supported by any of the available information from the NRMP.
 
I've said this before and I'll say it again: What is the point of AOA? Is it to tell us what we already know? If I see someone with all honors, step 1 = 260, and AOA, should they get to say "I have 3 major academic accomplishments right there"? They don't have 3 accomplishments there--they have 2 (grades and step). The AOA just came about because of the other 2.
 
DrSnips said:
I've said this before and I'll say it again: What is the point of AOA? Is it to tell us what we already know? If I see someone with all honors, step 1 = 260, and AOA, should they get to say "I have 3 major academic accomplishments right there"? They don't have 3 accomplishments there--they have 2 (grades and step). The AOA just came about because of the other 2.
Click to expand...
Seems like another academic c********k.
 
21Rush12 said:
Didn’t you say you haven’t yet taken Step 1?

Programs aren’t interviewing people they’re not interested in taking, that serves no purpose. Yes the entire application is considered in ranking, but AOA is not necessary to make that cut.

I’m not sure what has you so dug in on this theory, but it’s really not supported by any of the available information from the NRMP.
Click to expand...
The dude literally is out here educating 4th years directly
 
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