EM Pay

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Backpack234

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As an M3 torn between Rad onc and EM (very different I know but I thoroughly enjoy both) I've been doing my research on having a career in both fields. One thing that keeps popping up is EM pay. Salary/pay isn't everything to me but I do like to know what I'd be getting myself into.

The medscape reports and other reports I've seen quote EM at ~250k/year, but given the hourly nature of the specialty, I don't like to trust salary reports. I've seen on various sites including SDN hourly pay from 150/hr-550/hr. This is a huge difference. EM physicians I've spoken with report their pay between $200-$230/hr, but I'd like to know how standard this is.

So....In the current job market, what are the different hourly pay levels for EM physicians? I understand that there is some variation with location, academics vs non-academics, etc. But if there is accurate data in the various types of practice/locations, I'd be very interested to find out.

Thank you!
 
You need to go into what you like and not what pays the best. Jobs vary by location, practice style, and bonuses. This is the same for rad onc as well. You'll find some EM guys that make more than the academic rad onc guys.
 
Disclaimer: I'm a med student, not an attending EM doc.

That said, I've looked into this quite a bit as well. What I've found is that it varies ENORMOUSLY by region. In the northeast, I've seen job postings in the $150-170/hr range as the average. In Texas by comparison I've seen job postings offering in the $250-330/hour range. In fairness, those higher numbers are almost always listed as "partner rates," meaning you don't get paid that until you make partner and IDK what benefits there are. The average range I've seen in TX based on random internet searches is more in the $200-250/hr range.

The $550/hour thing doesn't exist. I know that someone posted about it on SDN recently, but they even said it was a fluke due to a shop transitioning their staff and that it didn't last.

All of that said, who gives a crap? You're going to make plenty of money either way. If you go into EM, I hope you're doing it because you like being in the ED. Otherwise you're just going to be miserable regardless of how much money you're making.
 
Thanks for the responses so far. Initially I think it's important to say that the money is absolutely not a factor between the two choices. I do have an expectation of income being involved in the medical field after making the sacrifices of medical school and residency, however this is a low expectation that is easily achieved in either field.

However, the reason I'm asking is more because I've heard certain numbers locally but those set an expectation for me. If I went into the field understanding that EM physicians make X ($230/hr) and when I come out I make Y ($150/hr), thats a big change. Still enough to live on, but I feel having an accurate understand of the life I choose is important.

I've been struggling a lot with this decision but tend to lean toward EM. I love the environment, the level of patient care, and so many other aspects of the field that I'm sure are well understood on this forum. A big factor though has been the shift-work lifestyle, with both its pros and cons. Trying to make a decision for me at 25 years old for 50 year old me is pretty difficult. I've changed a lot as a person since I was...well...born so I imagine I'll change a lot in the next 25 years as well. With all that said though, there are a few key factors that worry me in making this choice toward EM.

1) Am I poorly informed about the lifestyle/pay (not the most important and again doesnt sway me between rad onc and em, but if my expectations are way too high or too low, it's hard to make an educated decision.) I wonder about the family life that EM physicians have given their rotating schedules. Also factoring into this is pay. This is why I started this thread.

2) Similarly, the constantly mentioned "Burnout". I don't see too many ER physicians >40 years old where I am and I've wondered if this is due to "burnout". I may start another thread on this, but I've read extensively on sdn and from other sources about this topic.

Again though, thank you for your responses. This is a pretty important life decision and I appreciate all the advice I can get.
 
Radiation oncology will make you more money than EM will on average, but you know that. You don't need to keep underplaying the importance of this by saying "money is absolutely not a factor between the two choices." Yes it is. That's why you posted this thread. I'm not being critical -- you're considering all factors between the specialties, and that's important.

You're not poorly informed about lifestyle versus pay. It's shift work. Sometimes, the shifts predictably suck, which you acknowledged. It's a unique environment. It has more than its share of nonsense. But it has a lot of perks, and I don't think it's ridiculous to say that you could find a job that might stick you with a handful of crappy shifts a month but in exchange for respectable compensation and time with your family and/or to do what is important to you.

Location matters. If you're near water or mountains, you'll probably pay for it. The south/southwest is known for better reimbursement in general.

Burnout exists. Where I am, we have some older attending docs do what the younger attending crowd does. We have a few younger attendings who do lots of nights by choice, not by virtue of being newer to the group. I am still a first year, but I have seen a few older attendings transition to a few-days-a-week urgent care gig with no ED responsibilities or drop out of full-time partnership with the contracting EM group, go part-time, and still work at our hospitals, taking a substantial hit to income in the process but in exchange for being, and I quote one of them, "much happier" now that the person has such a reduced workload with fewer inconvenient shifts and lots of time to do what matters in life outside medicine.

I agree with what BoardingDoc said. It's hard to know as a med student if you'll "love being in the ED" in the sense of being a resident or, more importantly, an attending. I would submit to you that you have to enjoy the ED without questioning it too much, other than to know that there is a lot of variance in practice type, so one person's job in a busy, 130k/year inner-city ACS level 1 trauma center will be a much different experience, for better or worse, compared to a place that sees a quarter of that number and is adequately staffed. Working in an environment which isn't for you is a major contributor to burnout, which is why I will never be working in the former.

Why do you want to do radiation oncology compared to EM?
 
Underplaying the money is something I need to actually do for myself a lot. Paying attention to my elders has taught me that happiness >>>>>>money, but economics has taught me that money is still important. In that sense yes it's a factor, but more important is knowing where I'd be happiest.

Would you be able to elaborate more on what "burnout" really is? I don't know if it's a phrase that means EM physicians hate their jobs enough to quit or if it means after 3 poor shifts in a row they get stressed but that it eventually goes away. My attendings told me something similar to your statement that it varies a lot on practice type/setting. I've only been exposed to the well staffed, 1/4 of that number, near the water community ER and everyone I've worked with is very happy, but I think that contributes to my poorer understanding of "burnout". Thinking I might "burnout" of my profession after such a great investment into it does give me some hesitation and makes me really wonder, if burnout is in fact people qutting the profession, what I would end up doing if that scenario arose.

I agree that it's difficult as a med student to know if I'll love being in the ED. However, please let me answer your question as best as I can.

1: Rad Onc.....Through serendipity/happenstance/random chance I was fortunate enough to do research with a local radiation oncologist. I went into the cancer center with a naive view that it was a sad, depressed place to be and that the patients would be uncurable, chronic, miserable. It turned out that I was incredibly wrong and it was so much more of a positive environment filled with patients who got better, whose cancer was cured, and who greatly appreciated the efforts of their docs. Furthermore, I looked at the attending who I doing research for and saw that he has a very happy demeanor, incredibly happy life, etc. Being the nerd that I tend to be, I was also fascinated with the high tech equipment, with the use of radiation (which is always portrayed as harmful) in such a helpful way, and with the patient interactions that tie back into the happy vs sad aspect I just mentioned. It seemed great at the time, and that stuck with me throughout 2nd and 3rd year. However, I admittedly didnt have a full rotation. I did research in the cancer center which was mostly data pulling and analysis alongside paper writing and was able to see patients for a few hours with my PI here and there, but I didn't have the day in day out life of a radiation oncologist so a question mark remained. I also met with some other radiation oncologists who had more negative views than my PI, telling me the field was going to be cut by medicare heavily, that it was a poor time to go into it. I read some articles about how there are far too many rad onc residency spots as the need for radiation oncologists isn't so great per 100,000 population. On top of all of this, my stats aren't stellar and while I firmly believe I'd be able to match in this field, I needed to be 100% certain that this is the life and profession that I want.

2: Emergency medicine.....Third year rotations gave me one day/week in my local emergency department. I've done ~8 8hr shifts and 2 12hr shifts (one night 7-7, one day 7-7). What really stuck out for me initially was the variation. In room 1 there's a lac to repair, in room 2 there's a 90 year old with skin tears who fell, room 3 is an epidural bleed, room 4 is a pt who needs staples removed, room 5 is a pt with chest pain, then a stroke alert comes in. To me this really resonated as I felt I was seeing "real medicine". As I've been given more opportunity and responsibility by my attendings throughout my rotation, I've noticed the real happiness I get when my clinical diagnosis is confirmed by labs/tests/scans. I was worried about the pace going into it, but every doc I've been with has had enough time during his 11-12 hr shift to eat a 10-20 minute lunch, use the restroom, listen to music, read a quick article on espn, etc. Even with every bed full, 8-10 patients in the hallway, 2 stroke alerts coming in, and 15 in the waiting room....my attendings still got through it without really any visible stress and made the high pace of the department seem ok. Maybe though, it's just that I enjoy their pace so to me it feels ok. On top of this is a difficult to explain fact...but i'll try. I love doing procedures and thought early on that that meant I'd go into surgery, but surgeries were long and I found myself getting bored even as 1st assist. In the ER though, there are a lot of smaller, quick procedures to do and I've loved every opportunity to do them. I could go on for a while, but overall, emergency medicine just feels right to me. On top of that is one last thing. I've always looked at my attendings and wondered if I really see myself in their shoes; in their practice environment, with their lifestyle, etc. etc.. In no other field that I've rotated through have I identified as well with my attendings as I have in emergency medicine...........................However...A lot of my EM attendings are in their 30s which could explain why I identify so well with them. Also, only a few of them have kids but their kids are still 1-2 years old. So maybe they just dont have the "burnout" mindset yet, but it's coming? Add to this the ever-discussed "burnout" and EM to me has really seemed like this: I'm looking down this road and at the end is something amazing, but there are brightly lit road signs saying "Medical students think EM is great, but they're wrong" and "Burnout will kill you" among other things. I don't know if I should ignore those signs which seems a bit arrogant, or if I try to explain them and see if they're really right or not. These are really the questions for me with EM. Add also that while my step 1 is ok for EM, it's still a unique application process and I don't think I would get it without being 100% certain that this is the life and profession that I want.

I'm realizing this was a lot to type/read and I apologize for getting off my initial topic of money. Hopefully though, you can see my dilemma in picking. I lean a lot more towards EM, but I'm still trying to get as much info as I can before I make a final decision.

Again, thank you.
 
OK,

Here is a texas point of view on pay. I know this is not possible everywhere. I think way too many docs are secretive about pay and I really dont' understand why. If someone knows I am making 350/hr, will they suddenly come and take over my job. I doubt it.

I work 13-14 days a month. Our shifts are 7 or 8 hrs long of patient care. Last year I pulled in over 400k. Last time I calculated, I work about 25hrs/week. I make about 325-350/hr before taxes (income, partner distribution, retirement funding). I am a partner in a private group so my income is inflated. I have my malpractice (low in texas, which I think was around 10k), and healthcare paid.

1. I think pay/hr is great. I would put my pay/hr against most specialists and I would come out way ahead. If I put in 50 hrs a week like our hospitalist put in a week, I would pull in 700k/yr. If I put in 60 hrs as some of our neurosurgeons/gen surgeons put in, I would be close to $1 mil.

2. Jobs are easy to come by in texas in the $300/hr range. I get emails weekly with like offers and up to 25-50k bonuses. These places are usually in the less desirable place and given that I live in one of the best places in texas, I would never think about moving

3. Burn out? I work 25 hrs/week and 30 hrs/wk if you include staying to finish charting. I don't see how I can ever get burned out in EM in my current situation. Talk about burnout. Look at our hospitalist, general surgeons, OB docs, Anesthesiologists. I would never trade my job for theirs. Our hospitalists start work at 8am to round and don't leave until atleast 5pm every day. If they are on call that day, they are there until 11p. Our OB docs come in at 6am sometimes, do their clinics, deliever babies in between, and get home at 6p usually. If they are on call, then they just earned themselves at 30+ hr day. Don't even get me started with our neurosurgeons that always roam the hallways in the late evening.

And when I do get burned out, I will cut my shifts to 8 days a month putting me at about 15 hrs/week. Still burned out, I will transition to our Slower ERs where we see 1.2 ts/hr. Still Burned out, we have Freestanding ERs/Urgent cares all over the city paying 170-190/hr seeing like 12 pts/day. Still burned out? I don't see it

4. Shift work. Yes it sucks. Switching times sucks. But if you find a group that has dedicated night docs/docs that get paid for doing overnights, then you dont' do anymore nights. I have not done a true overnight shift in 8 yrs. The latest I work is until 2am and at most 2 days/month. All of my other shifts, I am home before 11p at the latest. The Benefits are amazing. I am off 17 dys a month. I can shop without traffic and crowds. I can take my kids to school in the morning and pick them up most days. I almost never miss their activities b/c I can always switch out of the shift or schedule off on that day.

Positives - Lifestyle is great, pay is great here, many opportunities to slowly move away from busy ED work. No patients to deal with long term. Not being on call.

Neg - Have to be nice to drug seekers, Psych pts. Can be a dangerous place. High acuity pts. Could me a stressful envirnment

I would not trade my job for 99% of the docs out there. It gives me giggles when I come in to work at 9am, leave right at 4pm. The poor internist came in at 7am and still rounding on pts at 4pm. Now that is what I call a burn out job
 
Thanks for the responses so far. Initially I think it's important to say that the money is absolutely not a factor between the two choices. I do have an expectation of income being involved in the medical field after making the sacrifices of medical school and residency, however this is a low expectation that is easily achieved in either field.

However, the reason I'm asking is more because I've heard certain numbers locally but those set an expectation for me. If I went into the field understanding that EM physicians make X ($230/hr) and when I come out I make Y ($150/hr), thats a big change. Still enough to live on, but I feel having an accurate understand of the life I choose is important.

I've been struggling a lot with this decision but tend to lean toward EM. I love the environment, the level of patient care, and so many other aspects of the field that I'm sure are well understood on this forum. A big factor though has been the shift-work lifestyle, with both its pros and cons. Trying to make a decision for me at 25 years old for 50 year old me is pretty difficult. I've changed a lot as a person since I was...well...born so I imagine I'll change a lot in the next 25 years as well. With all that said though, there are a few key factors that worry me in making this choice toward EM.

1) Am I poorly informed about the lifestyle/pay (not the most important and again doesnt sway me between rad onc and em, but if my expectations are way too high or too low, it's hard to make an educated decision.) I wonder about the family life that EM physicians have given their rotating schedules. Also factoring into this is pay. This is why I started this thread.

2) Similarly, the constantly mentioned "Burnout". I don't see too many ER physicians >40 years old where I am and I've wondered if this is due to "burnout". I may start another thread on this, but I've read extensively on sdn and from other sources about this topic.

Again though, thank you for your responses. This is a pretty important life decision and I appreciate all the advice I can get.
You should really keep in mind that rad onc may pay very well right now, but pay could be substantially decreased in the future due to new reimbursement structures. In the future, they are pushing for "per instance" rather than per procedure billing. Since a lot of rad onc care is done in hospitals, and the money would be distributed in a "pie," so to speak, you would be fighting with the hospital and other physicians caring for the patient over your piece of that pie. No one knows for sure what is going to happen, however, so take everything with a grain of salt. EM salaries could also drop substantially due to market forces, as more EM trained residents enter the market, saturation will start to set in in desirable areas, lowering salaries in the places you will most likely want to live.

Don't plan your specialty based on the pay, because that pay might not be there by the time you're done with residency. Pick what suits you best, and what you can imagine doing for the rest of your life.
 
You should really keep in mind that rad onc may pay very well right now, but pay could be substantially decreased in the future due to new reimbursement structures. In the future, they are pushing for "per instance" rather than per procedure billing. Since a lot of rad onc care is done in hospitals, and the money would be distributed in a "pie," so to speak, you would be fighting with the hospital and other physicians caring for the patient over your piece of that pie. No one knows for sure what is going to happen, however, so take everything with a grain of salt. EM salaries could also drop substantially due to market forces, as more EM trained residents enter the market, saturation will start to set in in desirable areas, lowering salaries in the places you will most likely want to live.

Don't plan your specialty based on the pay, because that pay might not be there by the time you're done with residency. Pick what suits you best, and what you can imagine doing for the rest of your life.

How do you know you will stay interested 10 yrs from now? I was into playing w/ toy cars 15 yrs ago... but not anymore.. I say go with lifestyle.
 
2: Emergency medicine.....Third year rotations gave me one day/week in my local emergency department. I've done ~8 8hr shifts and 2 12hr shifts (one night 7-7, one day 7-7). What really stuck out for me initially was the variation. In room 1 there's a lac to repair, in room 2 there's a 90 year old with skin tears who fell, room 3 is an epidural bleed, room 4 is a pt who needs staples removed, room 5 is a pt with chest pain, then a stroke alert comes in. To me this really resonated as I felt I was seeing "real medicine". As I've been given more opportunity and responsibility by my attendings throughout my rotation, I've noticed the real happiness I get when my clinical diagnosis is confirmed by labs/tests/scans. I was worried about the pace going into it, but every doc I've been with has had enough time during his 11-12 hr shift to eat a 10-20 minute lunch, use the restroom, listen to music, read a quick article on espn, etc. Even with every bed full, 8-10 patients in the hallway, 2 stroke alerts coming in, and 15 in the waiting room....my attendings still got through it without really any visible stress and made the high pace of the department seem ok. Maybe though, it's just that I enjoy their pace so to me it feels ok. On top of this is a difficult to explain fact...but i'll try. I love doing procedures and thought early on that that meant I'd go into surgery, but surgeries were long and I found myself getting bored even as 1st assist. In the ER though, there are a lot of smaller, quick procedures to do and I've loved every opportunity to do them. I could go on for a while, but overall, emergency medicine just feels right to me. On top of that is one last thing. I've always looked at my attendings and wondered if I really see myself in their shoes; in their practice environment, with their lifestyle, etc. etc.. In no other field that I've rotated through have I identified as well with my attendings as I have in emergency medicine...........................However...A lot of my EM attendings are in their 30s which could explain why I identify so well with them. Also, only a few of them have kids but their kids are still 1-2 years old. So maybe they just dont have the "burnout" mindset yet, but it's coming? Add to this the ever-discussed "burnout" and EM to me has really seemed like this: I'm looking down this road and at the end is something amazing, but there are brightly lit road signs saying "Medical students think EM is great, but they're wrong" and "Burnout will kill you" among other things. I don't know if I should ignore those signs which seems a bit arrogant, or if I try to explain them and see if they're really right or not. These are really the questions for me with EM. Add also that while my step 1 is ok for EM, it's still a unique application process and I don't think I would get it without being 100% certain that this is the life and profession that I want..

Let me preface this by saying I'm a medical student who recently matched into EM in a big city. I just want to share some observations. Please realize that this is an opinion but a perspective that you should consider.

As a medical student, EM always seems like a great career because you get to do many things and you are involved in the patient care more so than other rotations. You can do cool procedures like central lines instead of boring stuff like drawing blood (which you might end up doing anyway) and this is exciting as a medical student because it's unlikely you can do this during your other rotations. However as you get older, what once was fascinating can turn into a nuisance. A transformation of something that you get to do into something you have to do. There is a huge variety of procedures in EM and maybe this won't ever be a problem but it's a possible contribution.

In terms of burnout, I never thought of it as working too much as it is losing motivation in what you love to do. EM has few hours for high pay, everyone knows this and is IMO, indirectly one reason for the burn out. You should understand that if you are motivated to do something because you love what you do, you will continue to work hard and enjoy it no matter how much you claim to hate it. The problem with the "high pay for few hours" is that this concept revolves around comfort and lifestyle being highly important. In the ER, you are forced to take whatever comes through the door. This constant, incessant flow won't bother younger physicians, but as you get older, it becomes more difficult to keep up. The benefits of the trade between pay and fewer hours for increasing discomfort with age begins to become less and less favorable. There will come to a point when you feel that it simply isn't worth it and that's the beginning stages of burnout. Now why is burnout common in EM but lower (not necessarily much) in tougher lifestyles? It's because people don't rank comfort and lifestyle as highly when going into those fields. How can you ever enjoy life when you are forced to do something you hate? Again this is just my observation.

Another thing to consider in EM is that although there is a huge quantity of time, it may not be quality time. You do have control of your hours and shifts but it might not be as much as you had hope when you first started. Having a lot of time during the week days doesn't mean much if you want to do things with friends but they're tied up with work. It can also be difficult with children when you want weekends and holidays off to be with the family.
 
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How do you know you will stay interested 10 yrs from now? I was into playing w/ toy cars 15 yrs ago... but not anymore.. I say go with lifestyle.
Lifestyle is a large part of the "imagine doing for the rest of your life" equation. Notice I didn't say pick work you love doing or anything similar. It's more, "can I imagine doing this, regardless of reimbursement changes or deterioration in my health or changes in my family situation, until the day I retire."
 
Let me preface this by saying I'm a medical student who recently matched into EM in a big city. I just want to share some observations. Please realize that this is an opinion but a perspective that you should consider.

As a medical student, EM always seems like a great career because you get to do many things and you are involved in the patient care more so than other rotations. You can do cool procedures like central lines instead of boring stuff like drawing blood (which you might end up doing anyway) and this is exciting as a medical student because it's unlikely you can do this during your other rotations. However as you get older, what once was fascinating can turn into a nuisance. A transformation of something that you get to do into something you have to do. There is a huge variety of procedures in EM and maybe this won't ever be a problem but it's a possible contribution.

In terms of burnout, I never thought of it as working too much as it is losing motivation in what you love to do. EM has few hours for high pay, everyone knows this and is IMO, indirectly one reason for the burn out. You should understand that if you are motivated to do something because you love what you do, you will continue to work hard and enjoy it no matter how much you claim to hate it. The problem with the "high pay for few hours" is that this concept revolves around comfort and lifestyle being highly important. In the ER, you are forced to take whatever comes through the door. This constant, incessant flow won't bother younger physicians, but as you get older, it becomes more difficult to keep up. The benefits of the trade between pay and fewer hours for increasing discomfort with age begins to become less and less favorable. There will come to a point when you feel that it simply isn't worth it and that's the beginning stages of burnout. Now why is burnout common in EM but lower (not necessarily much) in tougher lifestyles? It's because people don't rank comfort and lifestyle as highly when going into those fields. How can you ever enjoy life when you are forced to do something you hate? Again this is just my observation.

Another thing to consider in EM is that although there is a huge quantity of time, it may not be quality time. You do have control of your hours and shifts but it might not be as much as you had hope when you first started. Having a lot of time during the week days doesn't mean much if you want to do things with friends but they're tied up with work. It can also be difficult with children when you want weekends and holidays off to be with the family.

EM has early match?
 
I'm guessing that anbuitachi knows that, but is confused by the fact that HarryPlopper said that he recently matched in EM but his profile says he's a med student. Either his profile isn't up to date, or he misspoke (or he and his program have committed an enormous match violation).
 
I'm guessing that anbuitachi knows that, but is confused by the fact that HarryPlopper said that he recently matched in EM but his profile says he's a med student. Either his profile isn't up to date, or he misspoke (or he and his program have committed an enormous match violation).
Could be a DO student. Their match is over isn't it? Could have been in the military match as well.
 
emergentMD,
Congrats on the job, it sounds like a dream gig. I'm sure you put a lot of work and effort into getting set up with that job. I feel like your description of it should come with a disclaimer like the weight loss ads about "results not typical". You're a partner in a democratic group in one of the highest paying regions in the country. There are many parts of the country where that model of ED staffing doesn't exist. We're in the same state but in my city (also a major metropolis) there is not a viable democratic group within an hour's drive. It's CMGs or groups run by one or two docs that hold the contracts to staff the hospital chains.

In terms of burnout, I'm glad that you could at any moment cut down from ~12 to ~8 shifts/month. I'm glad that your group has enough docs to be able to absorb the loss of whatever level of shifts you don't feel like fulfilling. Many docs are working with pay structures that heavily incentivize being full-time and are constantly under pressure to pick up more shifts due to staffing shortages. Some docs probably have valid concerns about there ability to stay in their current job if they radically decrease their workload. Part time positions absolutely exist, but well-paying part time gigs (somewhere in the 5-9 shifts/month range) at stable shops with good work environments are uncommon.

Again, kudos but your job is not a realistic expectation for the med students graduating in 2014.
 
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emergentMD,
Congrats on the job, it sounds like a dream gig. I'm sure you put a lot of work and effort into getting set up with that job. I feel like your description of it should come with a disclaimer like the weight loss ads about "results not typical". You're a partner in a democratic group in one of the highest paying regions in the country. There are many parts of the country where that model of ED staffing doesn't exist. We're in the same state but in my city (also a major metropolis) there is not a viable democratic group within an hour's drive. It's CMGs or groups run by one or two docs that hold the contracts to staff the hospital chains.

In terms of burnout, I'm glad that you could at any moment cut down from ~12 to ~8 shifts/month. I'm glad that your group has enough docs to be able to absorb the loss of whatever level of shifts you don't feel like fulfilling. Many docs are working with pay structures that heavily incentivize being full-time and are constantly under pressure to pick up more shifts due to staffing shortages. Some docs probably have valid concerns about there ability to stay in their current job if they radically decrease their workload. Part time positions absolutely exist, but well-paying part time gigs (somewhere in the 5-9 shifts/month range) at stable shops with good work environments are uncommon.

Again, kudos but your job is not a realistic expectation for the med students graduating in 2014.

Elaborate. Are you implying that is a difficult job for anybody to get or something is going to change in the next 3+ years?
 
I think salary is extremely important. You should know what the average rates for your area are. You should know what to ask for and expect when you are job seeking. You shouldn't take a job that significantly underpays you in a given region. Your skills are worth a lot, and you shouldn't accept less than what they are worth. Knowing what is reasonable pay will also keep your expectations in line. Can you ask for $550/hr? Sure, but you're not gonna get it.
 
Elaborate. Are you implying that is a difficult job for anybody to get or something is going to change in the next 3+ years?
It's a difficult job for anybody (getting a hospital contract requires tons of either political or actual capital) to get and small democratic groups are going to be increasingly rare in the future. Groups are going to trend bigger in the future to deal with economies of scale in terms of billing. Also, as hospitals continue to consolidate into healthcare systems the trend is going to be for contracts for the system not individual hospitals. Large groups like dealing with large groups do to perceived stability and I'm not sure a 200 doc "democratic" group covering a regional healthcare system is going to look significantly different to the individual doc then the CMGs do today.
 
How do you know you will stay interested 10 yrs from now? I was into playing w/ toy cars 15 yrs ago... but not anymore.. I say go with lifestyle.

Were you an adult into toy cars 15 years ago? If not, not completely relevant.
 
Can some attendings or residents looking for jobs post some numbers for southern California jobs? Places close to LA, inland empire, etc. It would be very helpful as the old threads only mention it as a tough market but no numbers in regards to compensation. Thank you!
 
Were you an adult into toy cars 15 years ago? If not, not completely relevant.
The adult part isn't relevant either. His point was people's interests change over time.
 
The adult part isn't relevant either. His point was people's interests change over time.

And his point was that there is a defined and definite change in values between childhood and adulthood. Literally almost no one has the same values and interest at 9 and 24. There is a massive change in who you are in that time frame. On the other hand, the changes in adulthood are 1) not necessarily a sure thing 2) more insidious in onset and 3) significant less drastic.

doesnt mean it wont be enough to deeply change someone's opinion, only that it is just as likely to not be.
 
And his point was that there is a defined and definite change in values between childhood and adulthood. Literally almost no one has the same values and interest at 9 and 24. There is a massive change in who you are in that time frame. On the other hand, the changes in adulthood are 1) not necessarily a sure thing 2) more insidious in onset and 3) significant less drastic.

doesnt mean it wont be enough to deeply change someone's opinion, only that it is just as likely to not be.
I meant the adult part isn't relevant to anbuitachi. I saw him playing with cars yesterday 😀

I changed from a practicing engineer to medicine and from wanting to do pediatric cardiac surgery to EM over the med school route. Not insidious and supremely dramatic.
 
As an M3 torn between Rad onc and EM (very different I know but I thoroughly enjoy both) I've been doing my research on having a career in both fields.

Wrong. Don't try to have a career in both fields. Choose one or the other. They're both great in different ways and both pay just fine. If you really have trouble making a decision, perhaps EM isn't for you. We make lots of decisions every day with very limited information. We might not always be right, but no one ever accused us of not being able to make a decision.

Good luck with your choice. EM docs make $150-300 an hour. But don't pick a specialty SOLELY based on money. While an important consideration, especially if you have big time loans, the other stuff matters more in the end.
 
I am a partner in a private group so my income is inflated.

No, it isn't inflated. That's what we actually make when no one (like a big hospital or CMG) is stealing from us.
 
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Wrong. Don't try to have a career in both fields. Choose one or the other. They're both great in different ways and both pay just fine. If you really have trouble making a decision, perhaps EM isn't for you. We make lots of decisions every day with very limited information. We might not always be right, but no one ever accused us of not being able to make a decision.

Good luck with your choice. EM docs make $150-300 an hour. But don't pick a specialty SOLELY based on money. While an important consideration, especially if you have big time loans, the other stuff matters more in the end.
Not to put words in his mouth but I think he meant, "I was doing research on having a career in Rad Onc and research on having a career in EM". Not doing both.

But I had a crappy week and there's a better than even chance I'm drunk right now so perhaps I'm not the most reliable narrator.
 
ok now that we settled this rad onc debate can we talk about em pay please? Can some attendings or residents looking for jobs post some numbers for southern California jobs? Places close to LA, inland empire, etc. It would be very helpful as the old threads only mention it as a tough market but no numbers in regards to compensation. Thank you!
 
ok now that we settled this rad onc debate can we talk about em pay please? Can some attendings or residents looking for jobs post some numbers for southern California jobs? Places close to LA, inland empire, etc. It would be very helpful as the old threads only mention it as a tough market but no numbers in regards to compensation. Thank you!

When I did my residency there ~2006 most jobs were paying in the $120-$140/hour range. That was for hospitals in LA. The pay goes up when you go to the surrounding areas. Factor in the 10% income tax on wages, and Southern California is one of the worst paying markets in the country.
 
emergentMD,
Congrats on the job, it sounds like a dream gig. I'm sure you put a lot of work and effort into getting set up with that job. I feel like your description of it should come with a disclaimer like the weight loss ads about "results not typical". You're a partner in a democratic group in one of the highest paying regions in the country. There are many parts of the country where that model of ED staffing doesn't exist. We're in the same state but in my city (also a major metropolis) there is not a viable democratic group within an hour's drive. It's CMGs or groups run by one or two docs that hold the contracts to staff the hospital chains.

In terms of burnout, I'm glad that you could at any moment cut down from ~12 to ~8 shifts/month. I'm glad that your group has enough docs to be able to absorb the loss of whatever level of shifts you don't feel like fulfilling. Many docs are working with pay structures that heavily incentivize being full-time and are constantly under pressure to pick up more shifts due to staffing shortages. Some docs probably have valid concerns about there ability to stay in their current job if they radically decrease their workload. Part time positions absolutely exist, but well-paying part time gigs (somewhere in the 5-9 shifts/month range) at stable shops with good work environments are uncommon.

Again, kudos but your job is not a realistic expectation for the med students graduating in 2014.

Good post by Arcan. Realistic. These dream partner-gigs are great. I hope he keeps it his whole career, but I agree with you Arcan. The predatory CMGs are just too damn good at convincing the hospitals they can do it for cheaper. Out you go, and in comes the cheap labor, and away goes the dream contract into the vapor. This is the free market at work, unfortunately. If you (or I) can be replaced for cheaper labor, at some point you (and I) probably will be.

In fact, I'd think twice about posting that in a public forum (referring to emergentMD). Any CEO paying that much to an ER group reading this, is going to realize how many millions of dollars he's flushing down the drain and probably fire his current ER group and bring in a CMG for half the cost from reading this thread alone. It makes me laugh when people post their income online. It's a profoundly bad idea, even if anonymous and does nothing but promote undercutting yourself and angry resentment from patients and non-physicians. Doctors wonder why their patients resent the crap out of them and this kind of stuff fuels it, big time.

In fact, to the extent a specialty is seen as "under worked and overpaid," is the extent you make yourself vulnerable to a reimbursement bloodbath, like Path and Pain took this year and Cards a few years ago. We're not talking 1-2% cuts in certain codes, but up to 50-60% cuts and in some cases, 75-90% cuts in those seen as "over valued" CPT codes.

Welcome to 2014 and beyond, with its "sharing the wealth" to help pay for ObamaCare. I'm just saying, "Be careful."
 
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The concern over contract stability is something that concerns me and I don't see things becoming more stable, at least from a small-medium group standpoint. The main advantage for partnership groups is when you buy-in and reap the rewards from the docs that haven't been there as long as you. If the average contract is turning over every 5-10 yrs and it takes 3 years to become a partner, that introduces risk that the pyramid is going to collapse prior to you getting to the top. The CMGs entice young docs by taking the excess profit that would be going to the partners, using a percentage of that to pay slightly above the area's salary floor to brand new docs, flattening the salary structure completely, and dividing the rest between admin costs and shareholders.

This means that a lot of CMGs (in an area that has a choice regarding CMG/non-CMG) are going to be staffed by a U-shaped distribution of newish grads and older docs that don't have the time/risk tolerance for trying for partner at a democratic group. Most of the mid-career docs are going to be in admin (hoping that they'll find it a viable alternative to pulling heavy shifts at 50) or have some side business going where the scheduling flexibility outweighs the lower pay.
 
Good post by Arcan. Realistic. These dream partner-gigs are great. I hope he keeps it his whole career, but I agree with you Arcan. The predatory CMGs are just too damn good at convincing the hospitals they can do it for cheaper. Out you go, and in comes the cheap labor, and away goes the dream contract into the vapor. This is the free market at work, unfortunately. If you (or I) can be replaced for cheaper labor, at some point you (and I) probably will be.

Any CEO paying that much to an ER group reading this, is going to realize how many millions of dollars he's flushing down the drain and probably fire his current ER group and bring in a CMG for half the cost

One way to keep your contract stable is not to have a stipend from the hospital. I have yet to hear of a CMG paying a hospital to staff it's ED. Our SDG has had the contract with our hospital for >25 years. Part of that longevity is no doubt due to the fact that you can't undercut free (especially not with all EM boarded physicians).
 
Geeezzz... Sorry for being honest. I see way too many docs treat salary like some black box. I don't really care who sees what I make. Do you really think that Hospital CEOS, CMGs have no clue what I make? You don't think many of my old partners take this info to the grave?

You don't think that the many partners that are at new jobs take their pay with our group to the grave? The people in the "know" have a good idea what I make. Hell, all of the credit agencies, the government know what I made through my W-2.

If you think your W-2 is not public knowledge, then you are kidding yourself. And if a CMG does every take us over (which I am sure will eventually happen), they will not need to read this thread to know what we are making.

What should worry docs in EM is how much these CMGs really screw the docs.

It doesn't take a mathematician to know that if EMCARE is paying docs 300+/hr in houston, then they are collecting more than 300+/hr.

Anyhow, I am in the middle of my career and will be fine no matter what really happens going forward. I feel sorry for the newly minted docs having 200K loans and being offered 160/hr.
 
One way to keep your contract stable is not to have a stipend from the hospital. I have yet to hear of a CMG paying a hospital to staff it's ED. Our SDG has had the contract with our hospital for >25 years. Part of that longevity is no doubt due to the fact that you can't undercut free (especially not with all EM boarded physicians).

You can beat free. One thing the CMGS do (and I've witnessed this) is they meet with the hospital and tout how they will achieve all of these unrealistic metrics like Press-Ganey scores. The hospital CEOs want their own numbers to look better, so are happy to get rid of a smaller group for the CMG.
 
Agreed, you sure can beat free. AAEM is currently challenging the creation of a joint venture between EmCare and HCA whereby profits from EM contracts would be split between The two. More money for HCA and more contracts for EmCare.

Link, please?
 
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One way to keep your contract stable is not to have a stipend from the hospital. I have yet to hear of a CMG paying a hospital to staff it's ED. Our SDG has had the contract with our hospital for >25 years. Part of that longevity is no doubt due to the fact that you can't undercut free (especially not with all EM boarded physicians).
Us as well. Thats the game.
 
Agreed, you sure can beat free. AAEM is currently challenging the creation of a joint venture between EmCare and HCA whereby profits from EM contracts would be split between The two. More money for HCA and more contracts for EmCare.


Wha-, wha-, what?

Really? Yes, link please. So we've gone from EM groups getting a stipend for staffing an ED, to staffing it for no stipend, to now the ED group (in this case, EmCare) paying the hospital for the privilege of working there?
 
Wha-, wha-, what?

Really? Yes, link please. So we've gone from EM groups getting a stipend for staffing an ED, to staffing it for no stipend, to now the ED group (in this case, EmCare) paying the hospital for the privilege of working there?

Makes sense. It's all about economy of scale. Why make 100 widgets for $10 profit each when you can make 1000 widgets for $2 profit each. They will pay the ED phsyicians a "competitive" base rate of $150/hour, and the rest will be split between EMP and HCA. Badness all around. Every day I am grateful that I am done with these CMGS and their greed.
 
Wha-, wha-, what?

Really? Yes, link please. So we've gone from EM groups getting a stipend for staffing an ED, to staffing it for no stipend, to now the ED group (in this case, EmCare) paying the hospital for the privilege of working there?

Don't worry. I'm sure the EmCare administrators will get nice bonuses for hitting their target admit rates.

http://www.beckershospitalreview.co...ing-er-physicians-to-increase-admissions.html

You will need to click the highlighted "named" in sentence one for the lawsuit. I don't know how to attach PDFs with the SDN Android app.
 
I work in Dallas tx... I don't know of any job that pays above $220/h here... Much less 300/h.




OK,

Here is a texas point of view on pay. I know this is not possible everywhere. I think way too many docs are secretive about pay and I really dont' understand why. If someone knows I am making 350/hr, will they suddenly come and take over my job. I doubt it.

I work 13-14 days a month. Our shifts are 7 or 8 hrs long of patient care. Last year I pulled in over 400k. Last time I calculated, I work about 25hrs/week. I make about 325-350/hr before taxes (income, partner distribution, retirement funding). I am a partner in a private group so my income is inflated. I have my malpractice (low in texas, which I think was around 10k), and healthcare paid.

1. I think pay/hr is great. I would put my pay/hr against most specialists and I would come out way ahead. If I put in 50 hrs a week like our hospitalist put in a week, I would pull in 700k/yr. If I put in 60 hrs as some of our neurosurgeons/gen surgeons put in, I would be close to $1 mil.

2. Jobs are easy to come by in texas in the $300/hr range. I get emails weekly with like offers and up to 25-50k bonuses. These places are usually in the less desirable place and given that I live in one of the best places in texas, I would never think about moving

3. Burn out? I work 25 hrs/week and 30 hrs/wk if you include staying to finish charting. I don't see how I can ever get burned out in EM in my current situation. Talk about burnout. Look at our hospitalist, general surgeons, OB docs, Anesthesiologists. I would never trade my job for theirs. Our hospitalists start work at 8am to round and don't leave until atleast 5pm every day. If they are on call that day, they are there until 11p. Our OB docs come in at 6am sometimes, do their clinics, deliever babies in between, and get home at 6p usually. If they are on call, then they just earned themselves at 30+ hr day. Don't even get me started with our neurosurgeons that always roam the hallways in the late evening.

And when I do get burned out, I will cut my shifts to 8 days a month putting me at about 15 hrs/week. Still burned out, I will transition to our Slower ERs where we see 1.2 ts/hr. Still Burned out, we have Freestanding ERs/Urgent cares all over the city paying 170-190/hr seeing like 12 pts/day. Still burned out? I don't see it

4. Shift work. Yes it sucks. Switching times sucks. But if you find a group that has dedicated night docs/docs that get paid for doing overnights, then you dont' do anymore nights. I have not done a true overnight shift in 8 yrs. The latest I work is until 2am and at most 2 days/month. All of my other shifts, I am home before 11p at the latest. The Benefits are amazing. I am off 17 dys a month. I can shop without traffic and crowds. I can take my kids to school in the morning and pick them up most days. I almost never miss their activities b/c I can always switch out of the shift or schedule off on that day.

Positives - Lifestyle is great, pay is great here, many opportunities to slowly move away from busy ED work. No patients to deal with long term. Not being on call.

Neg - Have to be nice to drug seekers, Psych pts. Can be a dangerous place. High acuity pts. Could me a stressful envirnment

I would not trade my job for 99% of the docs out there. It gives me giggles when I come in to work at 9am, leave right at 4pm. The poor internist came in at 7am and still rounding on pts at 4pm. Now that is what I call a burn out job
 
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