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Wont be a big deal IMO. I dont think a ton of programs are sending out many invites the second ERAS opens.
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Wont be a big deal IMO. I dont think a ton of programs are sending out many invites the second ERAS opens.
You need 2 sloes. What you choose to do with your other 1-2 letters you submit is up to you. Plenty of people submit regular LORs. The key is not submitting regular LORs instead of submitting SLOEs. Once you have 2 sloes, the other 1-2 LORs can be whatever you want.
I honestly have never heard of this happening. It wouldn’t bother me at all from a program standpoint, but obviously I can’t speak for every program.
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Absolutely if meaningful. But I wouldnt list small volunteer stuff you did for 1 hr one time.
Update: they emailed me today saying they will just not report anything about my SVI, making it appear as though I didn’t do it. Just wondering which is better: to have a “cancelled” score vs “none”. I have a feeling either option is going to prevent me from getting interviews at certain spots but I can’t really apply to anything else this late in the game with my application being largely catered to EM..
@gamerEMdoc was just wondering your thoughts on how many programs I should apply to. Step 1:244 step 2: 251 CS: pass. Top half of class. Will have 3 SLOEs that should all be solid I think. MD student in the South
It sounds more like it'll be reported as you just not doing it, which in my opinion, is worse than it showing "cancelled" or something along those lines. If I were in that situation, I'd email the programs you apply to regarding your SVI score and professionally explain what happened. The former makes it seem like your irresponsible, the latter just makes it seem like some silliness from the AAMC.
You'd likely be fine with 20. 20-30 seems reasonable. Hit all the programs in the states in an around your med school state and permanent address that you'd consider attending, then throw in any other programs you'd potentially want to end up at that are dream programs but you aren't geographically linked to. Assuming your SLOEs are decent, you'll net a ton of interviews.
Honestly I doubt that it will hurt you much if at all. But I don't have any data to backup my opinion that the SVI just carries little to no weight, at least right now, in terms of resident selection.
Add this to the list of things that shouldn't exist like step 2 CS and the ABEM Oral Examination.
I can't fathom why every program director hasn't taken a stand against this obvious cash grab by the AAMC.
You shouldn't have any problems matching unless your SLOEs are not good, but if the place that gave you Honors doesn't just give those out to everyone, then you'll likely get a top 1/3 or top 10 SLOE from there. So you should be fine. Apply to 40 or so places, hit all the geographic places I mentioned in a post above, apply to some dream places, and make sure to include some less competitive places as well on your rank list to assure a match. You should be just fine.
gerbils123
New Member
Hello @gamerEMdoc !
Thanks for all the helpful information.
Do programs tend to screen out applicants based on 3rd year class rank? How is quartile typically factored in to the decision to interview?
Thanks for all the helpful information.
Do programs tend to screen out applicants based on 3rd year class rank? How is quartile typically factored in to the decision to interview?
Im sure it factors into some places decision making, but I doubt it has any widespread affect on interviews.
I factor quartile into my application scoring. Its a small piece of the puzzle. But I dont even look at the MPSE when deciding who to interview so it doesnt play a part at all for me in trying to figure out who to interview.
DO student, little late to the EM game so I only have a Level 1 COMLEX (crap score), but made 140 point jump on Level 2, took Step 2 but its not awesome (high 220s). On the west coast where there's almost nothing in terms of DO-friendly EM programs. Decent grades, letters, and on my 2nd of 4 total auditions right now elsewhere in the country. Thoughts on number of applications? My current ERAS list would leave me eating ramen for the rest of the year.
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Assuming you are applying realistically (DO friendly places, former aoa now acgme programs, newer programs, etc) I’d say 50 is about the most anyone needs to apply to. If you dont get interviews at the 50 or so programs that you anticipate arent that competitive, you arent going to get many by adding another 50 at more competitive places. Im a big proponent of applying strategically as opposed to blanket applying to 200 programs.
Hey @gamerEMdoc
US-IMG with some SLOE problemos
I auditioned at a place in May, they required you to have 4 individual SLOEish papers turned in and then they would form a department SLOE. I handed out 6 just to be safe, didn't have to twist anyone's arm to do them...so I thought. 6/25 confirmed for upload sent the program the ERAS request. Fast forward until mid-August I can't get a response from calling, email or texting residents. I finally hear back a couple days ago and the coordinator tells me only 1 of 6 were turned in, chief resident not only didnt hand the one in he said he would but he also lost one from another 4th year that wrote one for me.
At this point, I have two other SLOEs but no other letters, might be able to finagle a strong leter from an IM doc before the 15th?
What should I do? I've since got ahold of two people at the program but will still need a 4th letter turned in for them to write me a SLOE. Needless to say I'm pretty pissed off, money spent and a month away from home for nothing.
US-IMG with some SLOE problemos
I auditioned at a place in May, they required you to have 4 individual SLOEish papers turned in and then they would form a department SLOE. I handed out 6 just to be safe, didn't have to twist anyone's arm to do them...so I thought. 6/25 confirmed for upload sent the program the ERAS request. Fast forward until mid-August I can't get a response from calling, email or texting residents. I finally hear back a couple days ago and the coordinator tells me only 1 of 6 were turned in, chief resident not only didnt hand the one in he said he would but he also lost one from another 4th year that wrote one for me.
At this point, I have two other SLOEs but no other letters, might be able to finagle a strong leter from an IM doc before the 15th?
What should I do? I've since got ahold of two people at the program but will still need a 4th letter turned in for them to write me a SLOE. Needless to say I'm pretty pissed off, money spent and a month away from home for nothing.
I'm not sure what you can do. Rotating at a place isnt a legal binding contract, its not like they HAVE to write you a SLOE, though I agree its very unprofessional for them not to if asked. I think an email to the clerkship director asking for their advice on how to proceed is reasonable, to see if they still plan on being able to write one.
If not, you have 2 SLOEs. That's all you are required to need. If you get a LOR from the IM doc, you'll have a 3rd letter, and that should be good for Sept 15
Rivendell311
New Member
Another question about letters-but not SLOEs.
Do all programs require a program director's letter from a previous training, or just the programs that acknowledge that an applicant may have done previous training?
Do all programs require a program director's letter from a previous training, or just the programs that acknowledge that an applicant may have done previous training?
hello GamerEMdoc! sorry to pester you again, but this rotation turned out not to be going as good as I thought it was. I just received the comments for my SLOE and there were a few negative things like "didn't manage the board or pick up new patients" but their EMR was difficult to manage (they didn't teach us anything about it) and it was hard to figure out where unseen patients even were. The one thing that really concerns me was a comment that said "noticeable limitations in medical knowledge" that was entirely out of left field and nobody has ever said that to me before. Thankfully nothing on my personality though (that would be really weird). Granted those weren't the only comments, there were other positive ones too.
My first SLOE was a top 1/3 letter with only positive comments. Do you think these comments will sink my application? This is honestly terrifying.
My first SLOE was a top 1/3 letter with only positive comments. Do you think these comments will sink my application? This is honestly terrifying.
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how do so many people become aware of the comments and/or SLOE rankings?
I'm not sure I understand the question. But I do think in general most programs would expect a LOR from someone in program leadership in a past residency position if they are applying to something else.
So these were just comments on your evaluation, not your SLOE? How do you know your first SLOE is a top 1/3 with only positive comments? I'm really confused at how you know the exact content of all your SLOEs? ERAS isn't even up to upload them for someone like your advisor to see them if they were leaking your feedback on them.
School evals and SLOEs don't always mirror one another, so if you are just extrapolating based on your schools evaluations, then you may be mistaken.
There's negative stuff on nearly every student that rotates on their end of shift cards. Part of my job is to filter all that info down and look for trends to include in evaluations/sloes. There's always overly tough evaluators, overly easy evaluators, and people in between. So you cant take single end of shift feedback and consider that as what is going in your SLOEs.
yes sorry I should have been more clear. These were comments made by the attendings at the end of shift evals; I do not know that they will particularly go on the SLOE. I guess the question is if they were to go on the SLOE (since I have no idea if they will/will not) would that be a dealbreaker?
Concerning the first SLOE, the clerkship director told us at our end of rotation meeting what the comments were including how the particular attending ranked us (top 1/3, middle, etc). I was top heavy with only positive comments (the one negative comment was something like can be overbearing at times but well intentioned) and so I assumed that I would be receiving a top 1/3 SLOE. Is this a wrong assumption to make?
Depends on the place tbh. Most places try to come to some fairly even distribution of their SLOEs. But sometimes end of shift cards can be a little top-heavy in their distribution.
Hey gamerEMdoc...Are we supposed to get SLOE's from programs we audition at late in the season? I plan on doing an audition that ends in late November with the main goal being to have some "one on one time" with the program rather than being desperate for an SLOE (I should already have 2 SLOEs uploaded before I start the rotation). My question is will I likely receive a "late SLOE" from them and add it to my application even though it would be mid/late December? I would guess interview invites would have been received before then based on my prior 2 SLOEs. Do they still use late SLOE's for ranking purposes rather than interviewing purposes? Or do programs eventually stop writing them later in the season?
Thanks!
Thanks!
If I have 2 SLOEs by the 15th and get the 3rd SLOE uploaded later in the season will programs initially consider my app incomplete while waiting on the 3rd SLOE?
I think there is an avenue to get the SLOE but it looks like im going to have to email, text and beg people to fill out the forms for me. At this point I'm kind of just turned off, do you consider not having a SLOE from an audition a red flag? I know you've answered this question in the past, but in this specific situation how do I explain why I don't have a SLOE without talking shiz about this program, something I'm looking to avoid.
Thanks, and as always, you are the man
Just an FYI the eras portal is allowing for LOR's to be uploaded at this time.
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D
deleted436726
You should apply IM only if you can actually see yourself doing IM. IMO, EM and IM are vastly different and some people (me included) would rather quit medicine than have to do IM. IM is also less competitive and if you want to do it after a failed EM match you can always scramble into a prelim or TY for a year then apply to IM.
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I can confirm, I uploaded a few sloes this evening before my shift.
You only need 2 sloes for an app to be considered “complete”. You may need 3 or 4 letters depending on the program, but only 2 have to be SLOEs. So if you can get a 3rd general LOR from some random rotation, then you’ll be at 3, but still have space for a 3rd sloe (4th letter) later.
could LoRs not be uploaded before today? I had a letter uploaded from a week-ish ago...
I disagree. I liked IM. I just liked EM better. Not everything is black and white. If they prefer EM, but are ok with an IM backup, I see no reason not to apply to both.
I probably would not apply to two programs at the same hospital. You risk them both thinking you arent seriously interested.
Not a ton. If you are in the area, going to the fair is a good idea. Its free. But if it costs you anything, I don’t think it achieves anything more than a well constructed email loi if you are trying to dig up interviews later in interview season.
No, they will know, programs that care about geography (ie most programs) are going to filter apps and look at the apps from people with a permanent address or school location in the region. Every place in PA is going to at least look at your app for consideration. You dont need to be overt about it in your PS. Take that out of your statement, if I was a program anywhere but Philly I wouldnt interview you because you are broadcasting that you only plan to stay in philly. When it comes to interview time, you can let the individual Philly programs that interview you know you absolutely want to stay in the area.
can't you upload multiple PS and assign specific ones to specific programs (if you have a reason to put in the extra effort and have something meaningful to say that would be specific to a particular program or group of programs)?
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deleted734370
GamerEMdoc, I have a particular question concerning how to go about uploading SLOEs/LORs. I am doing 3 away sub-I rotations and my 1 home EM rotation. I chose to do this mainly because I wanted to see how other programs function, have exposure to different types of emergency departments, and because I had the time in my schedule and didn't feel the need to take off extra months for vacations or free time (lol, horrible, I know, but honestly how I felt about going into 4th year).
Currently, I have 2 very solid SLOEs, as well as 1 very good LOR from another preceptor outside of EM. If I submit those 3 letters on 9/15, my application will be "completed" with the schools requiring 3 LOR. That would leave a spot for the 3rd EM rotation I am doing right now, so I can upload that letter after I finish the rotation at the end of this month. As well, I am doing the 4th rotation that will be ending at the end of October, therefore, the SLOE probably will not be done until mid November.
My question: How would you go about uploading these letters? Should I just upload the 2 SLOEs I have currently for the 9/15 deadline, knowing that my 3rd SLOE will not be ready until mid-october, and then add the 4th SLOE in mid-November? (and just not submit the outside LOR at all).
Or, should I use the 1 outside LOR I have with my 2 SLOEs so I am marked as "completed" by 10/1 and will get in on the first wave of interviews? If I do that, (submit outside LOR and then my next subsequent 3 SLOEs), what will I end up doing with the 4th SLOE? I will not have the space to submit it at all to any programs since the max # of letters is 4. If this is what I should do in order to get in on the first wave of interviews, will this be viewed negatively to programs on the interview trail when informed I actually did 4 EM rotations and couldn't upload my last SLOE? Really lost here on this.
Thank you so much!
Currently, I have 2 very solid SLOEs, as well as 1 very good LOR from another preceptor outside of EM. If I submit those 3 letters on 9/15, my application will be "completed" with the schools requiring 3 LOR. That would leave a spot for the 3rd EM rotation I am doing right now, so I can upload that letter after I finish the rotation at the end of this month. As well, I am doing the 4th rotation that will be ending at the end of October, therefore, the SLOE probably will not be done until mid November.
My question: How would you go about uploading these letters? Should I just upload the 2 SLOEs I have currently for the 9/15 deadline, knowing that my 3rd SLOE will not be ready until mid-october, and then add the 4th SLOE in mid-November? (and just not submit the outside LOR at all).
Or, should I use the 1 outside LOR I have with my 2 SLOEs so I am marked as "completed" by 10/1 and will get in on the first wave of interviews? If I do that, (submit outside LOR and then my next subsequent 3 SLOEs), what will I end up doing with the 4th SLOE? I will not have the space to submit it at all to any programs since the max # of letters is 4. If this is what I should do in order to get in on the first wave of interviews, will this be viewed negatively to programs on the interview trail when informed I actually did 4 EM rotations and couldn't upload my last SLOE? Really lost here on this.
Thank you so much!
I would upload the two sloes and the personal LOR for sept 15th then use the 3rd sloe as your last LOR when it becomes available. I wouldn't even request a sloe at the last place, no one needs a fourth sloe.
D
deleted734370
Thank you for the response. However, isn't it considered as rude or not polite to not ask for a SLOE from an institution you did an EM sub-I at? The rotation is from 9/30-10/27, so the SLOE won't even be ready until mid or even later November, but still, I just had heard this could be seen as rude. Would it be better to just cancel the away rotation? (Kinda feel like it's a little late to cancel it, though, and I was thoroughly looking forward to going on this away).
D
deleted734370
Would it just be better to cancel this rotation, if I am about 27 days out from starting? Or is that just not a good idea, either?
No, its not rude. No one needs a forth SLOE. No program is going to be upset in Nov if they don't get a SLOE request from you if you tell them you already have enough SLOEs. But if your worried about it, you can always request it. But you don't have to use it.
Oh no, you don't need to cancel it just because you don't want to not ask for a SLOE. Very few candidates rotating later in interview season ask me for a SLOE. Most have 2-3 by that point, and already are getting their interviews.
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Apply EM first, then apply to IM places that don't have EM programs as a backup. If you don't get an EM interview at some places with IM places, then you can always apply to IM there later (the IM program isn't going to know you applied to EM and they chose not to interview you).
@gamerEMdoc
do you have advice for the low SVI crowd? Like 13 and less gang. How big of a negative is this ? what should we do differently from here on out vs if we'd had average scores?
do you have advice for the low SVI crowd? Like 13 and less gang. How big of a negative is this ? what should we do differently from here on out vs if we'd had average scores?
Nothing. I honestly highly doubt many programs are out there using the SVI to decide on who to interview. Maybe super competitive places could use that as a tie breaker among all the super competitive candidates they get? But for the average program, I really don't think the SVI score is making much of a difference in the decision to interview.
I will say though, this is complete speculation. There is no data on the importance of the SVI in the minds of EM PD's that I'm aware of. I've just yet to see anyone talk about how important it is in the application process, but I've seen many people completely discount it, so my general belief is, it matters very little until I can see hard evidence otherwise.
Personally, I don't use the SVI score at all in terms of application scoring or decision to interview.
@gamerEMdoc
Someone posted this example on the medstudent section. Which do you all prefer when reading the experience section of eras?
"So it should have a personal element to it?
Lets say I was a food shelter volunteer, do I write:
- Distributed food to people coming in
- Responsible for stocking supply room
- Directly interacted with management to ensure supply
- Collected food donations
Or
During my time at the food shelter, I was involved in collecting, distributing and managing food items for the population in X (town). I was able to work directly with management and the population being served at this organization. This experience meant a lot to me because it was my opportunity to give back to this community and getting an understanding of how food shortages affect families and lives gave me deeper understanding into how this can and does effect my patient’s health"
Someone posted this example on the medstudent section. Which do you all prefer when reading the experience section of eras?
"So it should have a personal element to it?
Lets say I was a food shelter volunteer, do I write:
- Distributed food to people coming in
- Responsible for stocking supply room
- Directly interacted with management to ensure supply
- Collected food donations
Or
During my time at the food shelter, I was involved in collecting, distributing and managing food items for the population in X (town). I was able to work directly with management and the population being served at this organization. This experience meant a lot to me because it was my opportunity to give back to this community and getting an understanding of how food shortages affect families and lives gave me deeper understanding into how this can and does effect my patient’s health"
My personal preference is the shorter version; its easier and quicker to read. If I see a huge paragraph about what each life experience meant to the candidate, Im not going to lie, Im not going to read it. When you have to look at hundreds of applications, looking at the CV is often times more quickly browsing it, you aren't pouring over it line by line, at least not initially. Ill look at the CV closer when it comes time to interview, but even then I prefer a shorter explanation.
Either way, its not that big of a deal.
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