EM PD - Ask Me Anything

[scoopdaboop]

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Any specific APD you have in mind?

None at all... Just wondering if there's any pushback from APDs in general.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

None at all... Just wondering if there's any pushback from APDs in general.

idk, I cant speak for anyone but myself. My personal feeling is guarded, but Im not overly concerned just yet. Im concerned more about program quality of some new residencies more than I am the number. I do realize that the job market is getting tighter in certain urban areas, but there’s also a huge number of EM jobs that are being staffed by non-emergency medicine physicians throughout this country. I’m not completely certain that the issue is we have too many emergency medicine physicians more so than we have too many emergency medicine physicians that I want to live in the exact same areas.

The specialty societies represent EDs in every area of the country. Not just the 15 most popular markets to live in.

I believe in supply and demand economics. When we see the national average of emergency medicine physician salaries go down, then we are going to see less people go into the field. That hasn’t happened yet. And honestly, had Covid not happened, I think the market would still have been a growth market nationally as it has been for over a decade, though I do agree that growth is slowing down.

 

[MedScat]

@gamerEMdoc I see so many people warning med s students not to go into this field because of the decreasing availability of jobs, especially if you are limited to a specific city (as I am). Do you agree with this? What if EM is what makes you happy (or what you think will make you happy at this point)...is the threat of decreasing jobs enough to tell you that med students should choose something else if they can find something else that would make them happy?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

@gamerEMdoc I see so many people warning med s students not to go into this field because of the decreasing availability of jobs, especially if you are limited to a specific city (as I am). Do you agree with this? What if EM is what makes you happy (or what you think will make you happy at this point)...is the threat of decreasing jobs enough to tell you that med students should choose something else if they can find something else that would make them happy?

If you are only willing to live in one location, then you have to accept the market for that location. That isn’t an EM thing. Or even a medicine thing. That’s the case with any job. If you only want to live in NYC, you are going to just have to accept that NYC has paid far below market salaries forever.

As for the current hiring freeze market, this isn’t an EM thing. This is happening in many fields. Hospitals aren’t taking on high end salaries when volumes are down. If anything, at least in our area, EM didn’t take the hit that many fields did back when clinics were cancelled, surgeries were cancelled, etc. Many physicians took a paycut and weren’t working. We didn’t lose a dime.

My point isn’t to say the EM has a rosy outlook in the COVID market, I realize things are tough for both last years grads and this years grads that are out there looking. My point is that all of healtcare has a rough outlook right now (unless you are a nurse, where the shortages are really driving up the market at the moment) not just EM. So go into whatever makes you happy, because no matter what you do, it maybe rough for a little while until this gets under control and volumes/revenues are back to being steady again.

Idk how many jobless EM docs are out there, but I suspect its not many. Because we had two faculty take ED director jobs in the last 6 months, and another one move to a slower paced ED in our health system after having a child. It left us down a few full time faculty. We have been advertising for months and literally haven’t had a single person apply for a job. And we are one of the highest paying academic jobs in the state. But we are in a more rural location, which means, like much of the country, its hard to get physicians to want to live there.

Jobs exist. They do exist. All of my grads last year got jobs and weren’t furloughed. Many of my current 3rd years are starting to sign contracts. But this idea that you can live in only one location for your whole life will absolutely limit you. Love CA? Great! But if the market is down, take a job elsewhere, make bank for a few years, and make yourself more marketable with experience THEN move back when you have some bargaining power.

This belief that you should be able to walk out of training, in any field of medicine, and get an insanely high paying job in the best locations in the country is just not realistic. No other job would think like this. No one graduates from lawschool and just expects to be handed a partner in one of the best lawfirms on the west coast straight out of school. I just think the expectations of the workforce are unrealistic, because of YEARS where the shortages were bad enough that that became the expectation.

 

[WildcatS11]

As for the current hiring freeze market, this isn’t an EM thing. This is happening in many fields. Hospitals aren’t taking on high end salaries when volumes are down. If anything, at least in our area, EM didn’t take the hit that many fields did back when clinics were cancelled, surgeries were cancelled, etc. Many physicians took a paycut and weren’t working. We didn’t lose a dime.

YOU didn’t lose a dime, maybe. A lot of us did.

But I think your underlying point is that, as emergency physicians, we are slightly more protected than most specialities when it comes to hard times financially for hospitals - and I agree with that point.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

FWIW I came across this article on reddit: The Emergency Medicine Workforce: Shortage Resolving, Future Surplus Expected

It does seem the issue is not supply and demand, but allocation of that supply. Most Americans do not want to live in rural America and prefer to live in urban or suburban markets which seemingly continue to saturate. With that in mind, I think even as a medical student it is important to be aware of the future economics of the specialty which certainly is not unique to EM. I have heard that the market for something as sub-specialized as electrophysiology is also tight.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

YOU didn’t lose a dime, maybe. A lot of us did.

But I think your underlying point is that, as emergency physicians, we are slightly more protected than most specialities when it comes to hard times financially for hospitals - and I agree with that point.

Correct which is why I specifically said I didn't lose any money, and never claimed that others didn't. I'm well aware others had hours cut. Many people did. But I think EM was more insulated from loss than MANY specialties in the pandemic.

My point is the COVID job market is a MEDICINE problem, not an EM problem, and going into a different field doesn't really fix anything.

 

[pillowsnice]

not at all, though I typically will ask a question somewhat similar to that. I don’t judge you on what you want, but on the thoughtfulness of your answer. It can say a lot about your maturity, self reflection, and ability to set goals. I remember an applicant who said they wanted to “revamp medical education because it doesn’t work” and “be a dean in a medical school.” That’s all great, but they had zero experience in education and were not able to articulate how they would achieve this goal.

Yeah that makes total sense to me. I want to be involved in teaching, but I also like the community setting, so I hope that makes sense during interviews.

 

[boolin_1]

So it’s been about 3 weeks. I’m sitting on 6 II’s, 1 WL, idk how many rejections. That puts me at a middle of the road applicant correct?
I’ll be couples matching so hopefully more start rolling in.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

So it’s been about 3 weeks. I’m sitting on 6 II’s, 1 WL, idk how many rejections. That puts me at a middle of the road applicant correct?
I’ll be couples matching so hopefully more start rolling in.

Yeah I think that's likely to probably get you to at least 10 by the time its all said and done.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I got an interview yesterday from a former AOA program with no connections. Three invites overall now. Someone said my Step scores give an impression that lower tier or mid tier programs could be ignoring me (Steps 243/237) but I don't buy that for a second. I don't think my SLOE had any red flags otherwise I would not have gotten this interview from a program that I have no connection to other than a few overtures on Zoom and the EMRA fair, but I could be wrong.

I did hear through the grapevine from some EM academic docs that it may be worthwhile to reach out to a few target programs right now which I'll end up doing later this week.

 

[EMBoundHopeful]

I'm sitting on 3 interviews so far. 1 of those is from my home program, and another 1 is in-state where I was able to express significant interest earlier before the season opened. My 3rd interview is out of state.
Should I be worried at this point?

 

[lost premed]

Hi! Thank you for being here!! I'm sure you have touched on this before so I apologize if this is redundant (48 pages is a lot to go through), but can you 1) talk a little about how a program ranks an applicant after the interview? And 2) are applicants with early invites more likely to be ranked higher than applicants with later invites (given they did not screw up the interview)? I've gotten a couple of unexpected interview invites but I'm scared my top programs are going to rank me at the bottom, if at all, considering my stats are on the lower end of things. Do programs use a point system? How much does the actual interview influence your ranking with the program?

Thank you!!

 

[lost premed]

Also what is the PD listserv? Is that like the crazy applicant google doc but the PD version of it? If so, what goes on there.......

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I'm sitting on 3 interviews so far. 1 of those is from my home program, and another 1 is in-state where I was able to express significant interest earlier before the season opened. My 3rd interview is out of state.
Should I be worried at this point?

Worried, yes. Devestated, no, because you can still match in EM with less than 10 interviews. Looking at the charting the outcomes data, DO students with only 3 interviews still matched in EM 50% of the time. With 8 interviews, they matched 90% of the time. So while everyone wants at least 10-12, you still have a shot at lower numbers. Its just less statistically certain, and you have to be prepared for the alternative with a backup plan.

I think a reasonable goal would be at 5-6 right now, because I think at that point you'll safely get to 10 or more by the end of interview seasoon. Below that, I think there is very likely to be something holding the app back, most likely a low 1/3 SLOE.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I got an interview yesterday from a former AOA program with no connections. Three invites overall now. Someone said my Step scores give an impression that lower tier or mid tier programs could be ignoring me (Steps 243/237) but I don't buy that for a second. I don't think my SLOE had any red flags otherwise I would not have gotten this interview from a program that I have no connection to other than a few overtures on Zoom and the EMRA fair, but I could be wrong.

I did hear through the grapevine from some EM academic docs that it may be worthwhile to reach out to a few target programs right now which I'll end up doing later this week.

I'd be almost certain you have a low 1/3 SLOE. The SLOE may not have red flags, but the rank has to be on the lower end. No one is blackballing students from interviews because their scores are too good.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

1) talk a little about how a program ranks an applicant after the interview?

Many programs use some sort of scoring system. I've detailed mine in the past here I think, but I'm not going to divulge the exact specifics. But here's the gist of it:

I review all the applicants the week of the interview and pick apart the app, scoring individual components like school grades, boards, quartile rank, leadership experience, and first 2 sloes (in non-covid years; this year, I'm just scoring the first sloe). Each one is weighted with a multiplier based on importance. Sloes>boards>rank/clinical grades>preclin grades. Some only account for a few points, some become a ton of points. At the time of the interview directly after, 3 interviews give each candidate a blinded 1-10 score which is an objective assessment of how much you want to match that person based on their app and interview, and we give a composite 1-10 score based on their 3 scores.

Ultimately the way the score pans out, the SLOEs are the most important. Then the interview. Then boards. Then the rest.

The interview score is then used later as well when adjusting the list, so its doubly important. Ultimately, the interview matters a TON.

2) are applicants with early invites more likely to be ranked higher than applicants with later invites (given they did not screw up the interview)?

No it doesn't matter at all when you interview

How much does the actual interview influence your ranking with the program?

A ton as noted above. SLOEs are the ticket to getting interviews, but I'd say once you have your foot in the door, the interview is at least as important as the SLOEs, and at some places probably more important.

Also what is the PD listserv? Is that like the crazy applicant google doc but the PD version of it? If so, what goes on there.......

CORD has a message board/listserv that you have to be academic faculty to view/post on. It's a way for PDs, APDs, and clerkship directors to ask each other questions and run ideas by one another to see if other programs have encountered similar ideas or issues.

 

[boolin_1]

what are you guys talking about in the listserv right now?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Well, I wouldn't ever disclose specifics, but there's definitely a big discussion about interview hoarding and where programs are with their invites at the moment.

 

[Doctor_Strange]

I'd be almost certain you have a low 1/3 SLOE. The SLOE may not have red flags, but the rank has to be on the lower end. No one is blackballing students from interviews because their scores are too good.

Is it out of bounds to email the program that wrote my SLOE to provide any insight? Because at this rate I may not even get to 10 interviews, and if that's the case, I would rather start preparing my app for a back-up specialty than not matching at all.

I just feel blindsided since my sub-i was after a four month hiatus due to COVID and I expected any evaluation to consider such circumstances but I am trying to avoid the woe is me feeling at the moment...

 

[EMBoundHopeful]

Worried, yes. Devestated, no, because you can still match in EM with less than 10 interviews. Looking at the charting the outcomes data, DO students with only 3 interviews still matched in EM 50% of the time. With 8 interviews, they matched 90% of the time. So while everyone wants at least 10-12, you still have a shot at lower numbers. Its just less statistically certain, and you have to be prepared for the alternative with a backup plan.

I think a reasonable goal would be at 5-6 right now, because I think at that point you'll safely get to 10 or more by the end of interview seasoon. Below that, I think there is very likely to be something holding the app back, most likely a low 1/3 SLOE.

In terms my app, I'm a US MD with 22X on STEP1 and CK. The only red flag is a preclinical failure from first semester which I took the time to mention in my personal statement. Could these things be holding me back?

Also, I got incredible feedback during my sub-I. What you're saying makes sense, but how could my sloe have been low 1/3 if I was constantly getting good feedback both in my online evals and on the shifts?

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Isn't it a violation to ask programs about how your SLOE was?

I think so, I guess I get a bit miffed when I hear other students were told their evaluation. I am hesitant to do so and honestly I probably won't even consider this last resort until December otherwise I am in danger of not matching it seems.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Is it out of bounds to email the program that wrote my SLOE to provide any insight? Because at this rate I may not even get to 10 interviews, and if that's the case, I would rather start preparing my app for a back-up specialty than not matching at all.

I just feel blindsided since my sub-i was after a four month hiatus due to COVID and I expected any evaluation to consider such circumstances but I am trying to avoid the woe is me feeling at the moment...

well it wont change anything. They will unlikely be honest about it, bc programs rarely will flat out say yeah we ranked you low 1/3. And ultimately you waived the right to know the content of the letter, and if you were pushy about it in anyway, they could cite you for a match violation.

im not sure exactly what knowing exactly the sloe says, does to help you, its almost certainly your issue and you cant change it now. This is literally the case nearly every single time students are struggling for interviews and I look at their apps. It is always the sloe(s).

so personally, I wouldnt reach out and ask them about the letter. If you want to reach out and ask them for feedback and guidance, you can, but I wouldnt expect to get a clear cut answer like “yeah we thought you were a low 1/3 student”. They will dance around it andat most mention that your sloe “has no bad comments” or be very vague. Id almost guarantee it. Or, they wont respond at all.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Isn't it a violation to ask programs about how your SLOE was?

yes, if you waive the right to know the content of your letter, you cannot ask about what the letter says

 

[gamerEMdoc]

In terms my app, I'm a US MD with 22X on STEP1 and CK. The only red flag is a preclinical failure from first semester which I took the time to mention in my personal statement. Could these things be holding me back?

Also, I got incredible feedback during my sub-I. What you're saying makes sense, but how could my sloe have been low 1/3 if I was constantly getting good feedback both in my online evals and on the shifts?

because some places flat out lie and tell every student they’re doing great. This is why the sloe exists in the first place. Non-sloe letters almost always say great things about people, even though they are still anonymous. No one wants to hurt a candidates chances. And when feedback isn’t blinded, evaluations are ridiculously skewed in the positive direction. The entire reason the SLOE hold so much value to program directors is because it’s blinded and PDs know that the author can be brutally honest and is told to be brutally honest.

If you don’t believe me, you could take one look at any medical students MPSE and read their clinical comments. All you’ll see is nothing but positive statements over and over and over and over again. And yet the student will be one of the lowest ranked members of the class. I could read to MPSEs and literally could not tell the difference between somebody in the top quartile or the bottom quartile based only on the clinical evaluation‘ comments alone. It’s impossible.

Its super frustrating. And I can’t say with certainty obviously without seeing anyone’s app that the problem is the slow, but I can tell you over doing this for the past six or seven years, when any student contacts me about this and says this exact same thing, “it can’t be my sloe bc they always gave me good evals“ it is still nearly ALWAYS the sloe.

I try to coach my residents and attending’s to give as honest of feedback as possible. I have had some really tough conversations that are legit uncomfortable over the years. But some people just are going to shy away from conflict, will never say anything bad to your face unfortunately.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Idk how the system could be fixed bc obviously unblinding letters would make them pointless and they would carry zero weight.

and in the end plenty of students with low 1/3 sloes still do match in em. They are at risk, but many still match. Because programs rank about 10 candidates per spot, and the average match goes down to 6.5/spot ranked. So the average is to go to the bottom of your mid 1/3 of the list, 65% down. Which means some go down lower (into their low 1/3) and some match higher.

it also helps in other years when students werent so strapped by a lack of rotations. Bc a single low 1/3 sloe with others that show progression definitely isnt the same as someone consistantly rated on multiple sloes as a bottom 1/3 student.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I think the system works when you have an advisor who can look at your app and maybe not disclose the info, but can honestly give you an assessment of your competitiveness. Some are going to be better than others at this, and unfortunately many many students are there just don’t have access to this. And that really is quite a large part of the problem is.

i’ve had students who have had to top 10 slows have advisers tell them to apply to family practice because of their low comlex scores and they walked into over 12 interviews without a problem and matched at their top place. Ive had students who’s advisors didnt tell them at all about them not being competitive based on their sloes.

So access to a high quality advisor, who can look at your app and say flat out, “yeah you need to apply to 100 community programs and also to a backup, you are at risk”, is very very important. Otherwise when people are flying blind, it makes it impossible until its too late.

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Well, I wouldn't ever disclose specifics, but there's definitely a big discussion about interview hoarding and where programs are with their invites at the moment.

I thought about that. With all the virtual interviews whats to stop someone from grinding out 30 if they don’t have to travel...

 

[Doctor_Strange]

Well, I appreciate the frankness @gamerEMdoc. I may not match EM at this rate & I need to kinda accept that as my fate perhaps.

It just sucks. I hope programs took into consideration these unusual times. I did my audition after a 4 month COVID hiatus. I think why I feel so blindsided is because 95% of evaluations are done by the residents and I feel like they would be more comfortable giving realistic feedback. I literally had a PGY2 say to me, "I'll fight for you when rank times come." He probably won't even remember but in the moment it felt like proper validation that I was on the right track. When I did my interview, the PD did not give me any indication or challenge me at all during our conversation. I walked away thinking I did a good job. Even looking back I cannot objectively recall any outrageous pimping question or something that I felt behind the 8-ball on. There were a few hiccups ie not know lidocaine toxicity, not knowing PECARN cold, maybe having an incomplete neuro exam, etc. I'm not gonna bother asking about my SLOE -- I wrote that in frustration ; it's painfully obvious it would not yield anything for me.

You're right no point in ruminating -- I can't change anything, but it's deflating, frustrating, and surprising all the same.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

I thought about that. With all the virtual interviews whats to stop someone from grinding out 30 if they don’t have to travel...

Nothing. Unfortunately. We have to hope students just do the right thing and don't hoard interviews.

If virtual interviews become the standard going forward (they are ridiculously convenient and save students a ton of money), then they'd almost certainly have to be couple with interview caps.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Well, I appreciate the frankness @gamerEMdoc. I may not match EM at this rate & I need to kinda accept that as my fate perhaps.

It just sucks. I hope programs took into consideration these unusual times. I did my audition after a 4 month COVID hiatus. I think why I feel so blindsided is because 95% of evaluations are done by the residents and I feel like they would be more comfortable giving realistic feedback. I literally had a PGY2 say to me, "I'll fight for you when rank times come." He probably won't even remember but in the moment it felt like proper validation that I was on the right track. When I did my interview, the PD did not give me any indication or challenge me at all during our conversation. I walked away thinking I did a good job. Even looking back I cannot objectively recall any outrageous pimping question or something that I felt behind the 8-ball on. There were a few hiccups ie not know lidocaine toxicity, not knowing PECARN cold, maybe having an incomplete neuro exam, etc. I'm not gonna bother asking about my SLOE -- I wrote that in frustration ; it's painfully obvious it would not yield anything for me.

You're right no point in ruminating -- I can't change anything, but it's deflating, frustrating, and surprising all the same.

Well, you have 3 invites, and you'll probably still get more. Its not over yet. And its still possible that it wasn't a bad sloe, and just a mid range one, and the lack of interviews right now has more to do with where you applied and geography. Without seeing your app, I can only speculate. But no matter what it is, there's still a chance, and already with 3 interviews, believe it or not, the match rate for EM is right around 50%.

 

[EMBoundHopeful]

because some places flat out lie and tell every student they’re doing great. This is why the sloe exists in the first place. Non-sloe letters almost always say great things about people, even though they are still anonymous. No one wants to hurt a candidates chances. And when feedback isn’t blinded, evaluations are ridiculously skewed in the positive direction. The entire reason the SLOE hold so much value to program directors is because it’s blinded and PDs know that the author can be brutally honest and is told to be brutally honest.

If you don’t believe me, you could take one look at any medical students MPSE and read their clinical comments. All you’ll see is nothing but positive statements over and over and over and over again. And yet the student will be one of the lowest ranked members of the class. I could read to MPSEs and literally could not tell the difference between somebody in the top quartile or the bottom quartile based only on the clinical evaluation‘ comments alone. It’s impossible.

Its super frustrating. And I can’t say with certainty obviously without seeing anyone’s app that the problem is the slow, but I can tell you over doing this for the past six or seven years, when any student contacts me about this and says this exact same thing, “it can’t be my sloe bc they always gave me good evals“ it is still nearly ALWAYS the sloe.

I try to coach my residents and attending’s to give as honest of feedback as possible. I have had some really tough conversations that are legit uncomfortable over the years. But some people just are going to shy away from conflict, will never say anything bad to your face unfortunately.

So at this point, what exactly can I do? I’ve got 3 invites so far, that must mean something at least right? I believe at this time, my chances of matching are around 50%?

 

[pillowsnice]

Many programs use some sort of scoring system. I've detailed mine in the past here I think, but I'm not going to divulge the exact specifics. But here's the gist of it:

I review all the applicants the week of the interview and pick apart the app, scoring individual components like school grades, boards, quartile rank, leadership experience, and first 2 sloes (in non-covid years; this year, I'm just scoring the first sloe). Each one is weighted with a multiplier based on importance. Sloes>boards>rank/clinical grades>preclin grades. Some only account for a few points, some become a ton of points. At the time of the interview directly after, 3 interviews give each candidate a blinded 1-10 score which is an objective assessment of how much you want to match that person based on their app and interview, and we give a composite 1-10 score based on their 3 scores.

Ultimately the way the score pans out, the SLOEs are the most important. Then the interview. Then boards. Then the rest.

The interview score is then used later as well when adjusting the list, so its doubly important. Ultimately, the interview matters a TON.



No it doesn't matter at all when you interview



A ton as noted above. SLOEs are the ticket to getting interviews, but I'd say once you have your foot in the door, the interview is at least as important as the SLOEs, and at some places probably more important.



CORD has a message board/listserv that you have to be academic faculty to view/post on. It's a way for PDs, APDs, and clerkship directors to ask each other questions and run ideas by one another to see if other programs have encountered similar ideas or issues.

My first interview is coming up soon and I was wondering how you think I should be preparing? Would you say the interviews are generally conversational (about hobbies, interests..etc) or should I prepare for more tough behavioral questions?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

So at this point, what exactly can I do? I’ve got 3 invites so far, that must mean something at least right? I believe at this time, my chances of matching are around 50%?

You have to wait and have patience, see how many roll in. If you are sitting on 6 or more by thanksgiving, then wait until after Dec 1 to send out LOIs. If you are at less by then, make sure you applied to every place you'd perceive as less competitive, and start sending LOIs to them.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

My first interview is coming up soon and I was wondering how you think I should be preparing? Would you say the interviews are generally conversational (about hobbies, interests..etc) or should I prepare for more tough behavioral questions?

They are conversational and laid back for the most part.

 

[lost premed]

Many programs use some sort of scoring system. I've detailed mine in the past here I think, but I'm not going to divulge the exact specifics. But here's the gist of it:

I review all the applicants the week of the interview and pick apart the app, scoring individual components like school grades, boards, quartile rank, leadership experience, and first 2 sloes (in non-covid years; this year, I'm just scoring the first sloe). Each one is weighted with a multiplier based on importance. Sloes>boards>rank/clinical grades>preclin grades. Some only account for a few points, some become a ton of points. At the time of the interview directly after, 3 interviews give each candidate a blinded 1-10 score which is an objective assessment of how much you want to match that person based on their app and interview, and we give a composite 1-10 score based on their 3 scores.

Ultimately the way the score pans out, the SLOEs are the most important. Then the interview. Then boards. Then the rest.

The interview score is then used later as well when adjusting the list, so its doubly important. Ultimately, the interview matters a TON.



No it doesn't matter at all when you interview



A ton as noted above. SLOEs are the ticket to getting interviews, but I'd say once you have your foot in the door, the interview is at least as important as the SLOEs, and at some places probably more important.



CORD has a message board/listserv that you have to be academic faculty to view/post on. It's a way for PDs, APDs, and clerkship directors to ask each other questions and run ideas by one another to see if other programs have encountered similar ideas or issues.

So in regards to the list serve, let's say I applied to 60-80 schools. Am I going to get black listed if i send 10 programs a letter of interest?

In regards to the list serve talking about interview hoarding, do you see the programs coming to a potential solution to this problem? Do they expect it to be a problem? Is your program seeing a lot less people dropping interviews compared to normal? How are you guys handling it?

Also do you mind sharing what percentage of II your program or others have sent out by now? Thank you!

 

[gamerEMdoc]

So in regards to the list serve, let's say I applied to 60-80 schools. Am I going to get black listed if i send 10 programs a letter of interest?

In regards to the list serve talking about interview hoarding, do you see the programs coming to a potential solution to this problem? Do they expect it to be a problem? Is your program seeing a lot less people dropping interviews compared to normal? How are you guys handling it?

Also do you mind sharing what percentage of II your program or others have sent out by now? Thank you!

the cord listserv doesnt talk about individual students. First that would be extremely petty. Second, there are thousands of students, can you imagine PDs sitting around detailing who sent LOIs?

potential solutions have been kicked around regarding interview capping or a token system, but this isnt cords job nor responsibiltiy, nor do they have the authority to fix it. It would be up to the aamc id imagine to build something into eras to combat this problem.

Are we seeing a lot less people dropping interviews? We are only 2 weeks in to interview season. So no, hardly anyone is cancelling a ton yet. This really isn’t different from any other year. No one really cancels interviews in the first month. The bulk of cancellations tend to come late in interview season in December and January.

I have no way of knowing what percentage of interviews programs have sent out. Every program does this differently. And while some PD‘s may share stuff like this on cord, it’s only a small handful that do, and even then They dont get into specifics.

Typically I approve the number of spots that we have for the entire season within the first month. This year was no different. So right now we are scheduled out in full, but we have had two cancellations already, and I’m sure we’ll have plenty more in the next two months. I have fairly extensive waitlist that has people prioritized to be the next people up for when that happens. Honestly so far this has been a pretty typical year, with the exception of the late start.

 

[WildcatS11]

Correct which is why I specifically said I didn't lose any money, and never claimed that others didn't. I'm well aware others had hours cut. Many people did. But I think EM was more insulated from loss than MANY specialties in the pandemic.

My point is the COVID job market is a MEDICINE problem, not an EM problem, and going into a different field doesn't really fix anything.

My bad - I think I read that slightly incorrectly, thinking the “we” was EM in general. Carry on, friend!

 

[Apollyon]

First that would be extremely petty.

Dude - you're sincere and honest and real, but, honestly? Academic medicine people are some of THE most petty, trivial, menial people anywhere in the US. I finished residency 14 years ago, and, still, to this day, there are two people at Duke that I would punch right on the ****ing face right now, full stop. You give your colleagues too much credit. "Petty" to these people is NOT a NASCAR thing. I mean, these are people that actually think that how far down their match list they went actually means or is worth a ***damn thing.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

Dude - you're sincere and honest and real, but, honestly? Academic medicine people are some of THE most petty, trivial, menial people anywhere in the US. I finished residency 14 years ago, and, still, to this day, there are two people at Duke that I would punch right on the ****ing face right now, full stop. You give your colleagues too much credit. "Petty" to these people is NOT a NASCAR thing. I mean, these are people that actually think that how far down their match list they went actually means or is worth a ***damn thing.

I think a major difference between now and 14 years ago is social media. Programs doing insanely petty stuff get called out and it gets broadcasted to the world instantly. I'd like to think that aspect has made programs at least hesitate a little more before being petty bc they don't want an online mob to wreck them (look at figs etc).

 

[boolin_1]

the cord listserv doesnt talk about individual students. First that would be extremely petty. Second, there are thousands of students, can you imagine PDs sitting around detailing who sent LOIs?

potential solutions have been kicked around regarding interview capping or a token system, but this isnt cords job nor responsibiltiy, nor do they have the authority to fix it. It would be up to the aamc id imagine to build something into eras to combat this problem.

Are we seeing a lot less people dropping interviews? We are only 2 weeks in to interview season. So no, hardly anyone is cancelling a ton yet. This really isn’t different from any other year. No one really cancels interviews in the first month. The bulk of cancellations tend to come late in interview season in December and January.

I have no way of knowing what percentage of interviews programs have sent out. Every program does this differently. And while some PD‘s may share stuff like this on cord, it’s only a small handful that do, and even then They dont get into specifics.

Typically I approve the number of spots that we have for the entire season within the first month. This year was no different. So right now we are scheduled out in full, but we have had two cancellations already, and I’m sure we’ll have plenty more in the next two months. I have fairly extensive waitlist that has people prioritized to be the next people up for when that happens. Honestly so far this has been a pretty typical year, with the exception of the late start.

so you guys have filled out all of your spots already? Damn. Curious on how many other programs are also at this stage

 

[BehindBlueEyes]

@gamerEMdoc I know you have said to wait on the LOIs -- I'm couples matching and my partner has received interviews at a few places that I haven't. We've been told to email the PD/APD if one gets an interview at a place the other hasn't yet, just to see if any connection can be made and to express interest. Would you say it's still too early for this?

 

[gutonc]

@gamerEMdoc I know you have said to wait on the LOIs -- I'm couples matching and my partner has received interviews at a few places that I haven't. We've been told to email the PD/APD if one gets an interview at a place the other hasn't yet, just to see if any connection can be made and to express interest. Would you say it's still too early for this?

I'm not @gamerEMdoc, but that situation is widely considered an exception to the "don't bug the PD/PC" rule. Of note, you will get WAY more traction in that if the PC or PD from the program at St. Elsewhere that offered your SO an interview can also contact the EM PD/PC on your/their behalf.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

Dude - you're sincere and honest and real, but, honestly? Academic medicine people are some of THE most petty, trivial, menial people anywhere in the US. I finished residency 14 years ago, and, still, to this day, there are two people at Duke that I would punch right on the ****ing face right now, full stop. You give your colleagues too much credit. "Petty" to these people is NOT a NASCAR thing. I mean, these are people that actually think that how far down their match list they went actually means or is worth a ***damn thing.

They may be petty, but not petty enough to sit and talk about every student that emails them. I've never seen an individual student named on the cord listserv, other than the rare occasion where someone is trying to get a latecomer to EM an audition rotation somewhere when things are booked up. I've never once seen the PDs on cord openly discussing an individual student in a negative light.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

@gamerEMdoc I know you have said to wait on the LOIs -- I'm couples matching and my partner has received interviews at a few places that I haven't. We've been told to email the PD/APD if one gets an interview at a place the other hasn't yet, just to see if any connection can be made and to express interest. Would you say it's still too early for this?

I think with regards to the couples match, its reasonable to reach out when the SO has an interview.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

so you guys have filled out all of your spots already? Damn. Curious on how many other programs are also at this stage

Temporarily. I'd imagine we will have a ton of openings in the coming weeks as we get into December and people begin canceling. Such is interview season.

 

[gamerEMdoc]

After years of answering questions as an APD and now 49 pages of questions, I had to change the name of this thread. I will no longer be an APD starting in December so the thread title had to change.

 

[Oligodinero]

After years of answering questions as an APD and now 49 pages of questions, I had to change the name of this thread. I will no longer be an APD starting in December so the thread title had to change.

Yeah I saw your post on Twitter. Congrats!

 

[gutonc]

After years of answering questions as an APD and now 49 pages of questions, I had to change the name of this thread. I will no longer be an APD starting in December so the thread title had to change.

Congratulations! Unless you got suckered into it, in which case...sorry man.

 

[boolin_1]

What a BEASTTTTTTTT