Emergency Medicine Resident - Ask Me Anything! (AMA)

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Greetings SDN,

CliveStaples here. I used to be a more active member and reader of SDN in my premedical school days and found this forum to be incredibly helpful, so I'm paying it forward with an AMA. I tried doing this over a year ago while on the interview trail but the thread sort of fizzled out, so maybe this one will catch some more traction.

So let me know anything you're curious about as far as applying to medical school, surviving/succeeding in medical school, or residency life! I'm an open book.

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Thank you for your time and willingness to do one of these! Premed heavily interested in EM here.

Were you interested in Emergency medicine before medical school? What sold you on the specialty? Do you think EM is accessible as a DO/ do you see it much? What would you recommend to someone interested in EM to look for in medical schools or things important to do while in medical school?
 
Thank you for your time and willingness to do one of these! Premed heavily interested in EM here.

Were you interested in Emergency medicine before medical school? What sold you on the specialty? Do you think EM is accessible as a DO/ do you see it much? What would you recommend to someone interested in EM to look for in medical schools or things important to do while in medical school?

Happy to participate. So when I came to medical school I do think that Emergency Medicine was what I was most interested with the caveat that I was also interested in learning about other specialties that I had less exposure to prior to medical school. I was determined to give every specialty their fair shake. Ultimately what I found was that it was important to me to take care of adults, children, pregnant patients, surgical patients, trauma patients, etc. The breadth of patient populations really appealed to me. I also thought that for the most part, the most interesting/challenging portions of every specialty is when the patient is undifferentiated. I've heard this expression said before, but EM gets the most interesting hour of every other specialty. It has its drawbacks and there are several other specialties that interested me that I would have found a lot of satisfaction in (critical care adult and pediatric medicine, acute care surgery, and OB/GYN) but after rotating on them all, I just found that I preferred the EM mindset and my personality was a best fit with EM residents.

I think EM is very accessible for DO students. At my program, we have DO students rotate with us not infrequently as visiting 4th year students and we don't discriminate based on those credentials. That said, there is a clear correlation in not only board exam scores but also ability to succeed clinically in my experience with rotating students this past year. Obviously there is some regional bias involved (i.e. DO students that I interact with tend to come from one or two schools in particular) but I do think that the average MD student that rates with us is more prepared to succeed on their rotation than the average DO student. I'll also state the caveat that two of our most highly evaluated 4th year medical students over the entire year were very successful DO students. So no, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being a DO student and the degree name won't hold you back in and of itself.

As an extension on that discussion, what I have found to be the biggest challenge that DO students face is that many of these institutions do not have very standardized 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations. For some of the students that rotate with us, it's the first time they have ever had to work in an academic hospital before. This can be very challenging for them learning a new culture, norms, etc. It's sad to say, but I sometimes wonder if these students are simply glorified shadowers for many of their rotations. As you evaluate medical schools, I urge you to try and do your homework on the quality of the 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations. Medical students need to be a part of the team and need to carry some responsibilities and to be challenged. Frankly, I think you need to see how good residents work if you want to be a good resident yourself.
 
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What percentage of your cases are truly emergent cases? How frequently do you you see ER overuse?
 
What percentage of your cases are truly emergent cases? How frequently do you you see ER overuse?

I suppose the first part of your question depends on your definition of an Emergency. At my institution, we have a roughly 30% admission rate from the ER so I think that's probably the best statistic I can give you. Obviously I wouldn't do this job if cardiac arrests, trauma codes, respiratory distress, etc. didn't get me the most jazzed, but I also think you're going to be unhappy in this job if you're not interested in the evaluation of bread and butter complaints like chest pain and abdominal pain. Again, the challenge of these patients is in their risk stratification and using your clinical acumen and the appropriate diagnostic tests in order to do a workup that you feel proud of.

As far as ER overuse goes, I don't have a great number for that. Obviously there are cases that come into the ER for purely social reasons (i.e. homeless and hungry). Maybe this is a larger problem in a larger metropolitan area than I'm located in because I feel like these cases are a minority of what I see. Outside of these cases, I don't think I spend a lot of time telling myself "why the $#%@ is this patient here??" Just figure out the patient's chief complaint and work them up appropriately. You'll be surprised what you find.
 
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Happy to participate. So when I came to medical school I do think that Emergency Medicine was what I was most interested with the caveat that I was also interested in learning about other specialties that I had less exposure to prior to medical school. I was determined to give every specialty their fair shake. Ultimately what I found was that it was important to me to take care of adults, children, pregnant patients, surgical patients, trauma patients, etc. The breadth of patient populations really appealed to me. I also thought that for the most part, the most interesting/challenging portions of every specialty is when the patient is undifferentiated. I've heard this expression said before, but EM gets the most interesting hour of every other specialty. It has its drawbacks and there are several other specialties that interested me that I would have found a lot of satisfaction in (critical care adult and pediatric medicine, acute care surgery, and OB/GYN) but after rotating on them all, I just found that I preferred the EM mindset and my personality was a best fit with EM residents.

I think EM is very accessible for DO students. At my program, we have DO students rotate with us not infrequently as visiting 4th year students and we don't discriminate based on those credentials. That said, there is a clear correlation in not only board exam scores but also ability to succeed clinically in my experience with rotating students this past year. Obviously there is some regional bias involved (i.e. DO students that I interact with tend to come from one or two schools in particular) but I do think that the average MD student that rates with us is more prepared to succeed on their rotation than the average DO student. I'll also state the caveat that two of our most highly evaluated 4th year medical students over the entire year were very successful DO students. So no, I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with being a DO student and the degree name won't hold you back in and of itself.

As an extension on that discussion, what I have found to be the biggest challenge that DO students face is that many of these institutions do not have very standardized 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations. For some of the students that rotate with us, it's the first time they have ever had to work in an academic hospital before. This can be very challenging for them learning a new culture, norms, etc. It's sad to say, but I sometimes wonder if these students are simply glorified shadowers for many of their rotations. As you evaluate medical schools, I urge you to try and do your homework on the quality of the 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations. Medical students need to be a part of the team and need to carry some responsibilities and to be challenged. Frankly, I think you need to see how good residents work if you want to be a good resident yourself.

I am applying currently and hold several waitlists for MD schools but next cycle if I don't get in I am going to reapply MD and apply Do. Could you recommend some of those stand out DO schools. I am extremely passionate about ER medicine and want to be in the best position to excel in it. Thanks so much!
 
Hey, thanks for doing this. Are research publications during medical school essentially a requirement to land an EM residency?
 
I am applying currently and hold several waitlists for MD schools but next cycle if I don't get in I am going to reapply MD and apply Do. Could you recommend some of those stand out DO schools. I am extremely passionate about ER medicine and want to be in the best position to excel in it. Thanks so much!

I confess I'm no expert on the quality of different DO schools. There are no schools where we know somebody will not be a good rotator, we take everybody on their different individual merits. I'm just making an observation about individual cases of DO students that have rotated with us.

What are some of the cool procedures you get to do?

Procedures that I enjoy and will perform in the ER include laceration repairs, abscess drainages, central venous catheter placement, arterial catheter placement, endotracheal intubations, paracentesis, thoracentesis, chest tube thoracotomy placement, and resuscitative thoracotomy. There are also fracture/dislocation reductions and splinting. I haven't done one in a clinical setting yet but another couple that are in our wheelhouse include cricothyroidotomy and perimortem c-section. I get plenty of opportunities to work procedurally with my hands.

Hey, thanks for doing this. Are research publications during medical school essentially a requirement to land an EM residency?

No, they are not. I had one research experience and poster presentation in my own CV but plenty of people match into EM without significant research experiences. Some programs add more value to research, but the majority do not make it a requirement to have done research. I will say that I think that a lot of EM research is fun. We have a large population of patients and generally our research is much more clinically focused than rooted in the basic sciences.

Just gonna leave this one here... ;-)

I tried doing some quick google-fu to pull up the actual research publication and not just this editorial. Would you happen to have a link to the actual paper? I'd be curious to actually read it. I don't think anybody who's honest with themselves in the world of EM will deny that Orthopedics is oftentimes out weakest discipline. Most EM residencies are in large academic hospitals with an in-house orthopedics program and the ability to obtain real-time consultation can be a hindrance to our ability to practice a lot of reduction and splinting. That said, some of the examples in the article (missed open fracture resulting in delayed antibiotic administration, in particular) appears quite egregious.

Some of the other specific findings (i.e. about incomplete imaging or workup prior to orthopedics consultation) may be due to institutional culture rather than inadequate education. For instance, on obvious deformities I will oftentimes make a spot examination with x-ray at the bedside and then make my consultation before the imaging has time to be uploaded. Have I made a consultation too early? Or what is the definition of incomplete laboratory analysis prior to consultation? I will obtain a CRP prior to consultation for a suspected infected joint but my orthopedic colleagues sometimes follow it up with a ESR, even though it is against institutional policy to obtain an ESR for suspected native joint infections. Is that an incomplete workup?

Bottom line is that I don't disagree with you that EM residents need better orthopedics training. It's oftentimes the first thing new grads working in the community comment about in regards to their education. But I don't think I'm missing open fractures and I don't think making timely consultations after the patient has a clear disposition. Ortho's job is hard; ortho trauma moreso than most. You have my respect.
 
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You mentioned an EM mindset or personality. Could you elaborate?

Also, does the lack of longitudinal care bother you? How do you cope with this?
 
You mentioned an EM mindset or personality. Could you elaborate?

Also, does the lack of longitudinal care bother you? How do you cope with this?

In a work sense, the EM mindset is to be highly sensitive in our workups with a high index of suspicion for pathologies with the greatest morbidities and mortalities. You also have to be willing to make decisions with incomplete amounts of information, which can be a big challenge for the types of people that choose medicine as a career. We're very big picture focused. Sometimes at the end of a long workup all you're going to be left with is a sense that the patient is ill and needs to be admitted for further workup, which is a humbling place to be (i.e. I have no idea what's going on exactly). In a personal sense, EM tends to attract people who work hard, play hard, and can leave work behind at the end of the day. This can lead some to believe that we don't have pride for our work since we work shifts, don't take call, etc. Finally, you have to be able to take pride in your own work and recognize that oftentimes you'll have to work your ass off and do the right thing even when you will get zero recognition for it from either the patient or your colleagues. Some people are determined to wear their white coats around and garner respect from everybody that they come across, and EM is not the field for that. In an academic hospital you'll see the worst of this, as we must consult every other hospital service when a patient requires admission or subspecialty evaluation, and these calls represent uncompensated labor to our other resident colleagues. At the end of the day, you just have to be the patient's advocate and do what's right by them, not what makes you the most friends.

Honestly I thought it would bother me at least a little bit, but I really don't find myself minding it very much. For patients I'm curious about, I follow their hospital course and try to learn from it what I can. Again, this isn't a job about accolades. This is a job of resuscitating patients, differentiating undifferentiated patients, separating the ill from the well, and determining what medications, interventions, and consultations will ultimately benefit the patient. I know my scope of practice and I'm happy to participate in it.
 
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Thanks for this. Your answers are very thorough and helpful. I will be starting med school in August, and am most interested in emergency medicine. I have some questions now but will likely ask more later. Firstly, how important is research to matching into med school affiliated EM residencies in desirable locations? Would an EM research project completed during the summer between M1 and M2 suffice to be competitive, presuming strong board scores and evaluations? Or should one strive to do research along with school? What's the deal with away rotations? Are you supposed to do them at the institution you wish to match at? Do you get housing? I understand that a component of the grade for some (or all?) consists of your performance on a shelf exam. Is the case for EM rotations? Since you need to do multiple EM rotations, would you take the exam multiple times? Do you have any advice for obtaining strong (subjective) evaluations. The prospect of my competitiveness hinging on what my evaluators happen to think of me worries me. Are subjective evaluations more important for EM than for any other specialty? What were/are the roles of mid levels in the EDs you've worked in/rotated at? Were they always distinguished from the physicians or were their roles ever close to being interchangeable? Since EM requires relatively few years of training, and mid level residencies have become more common, do you foresee hospitals hiring more midlevels (and thus fewer physicians) to reduce costs? Are you doing a 3 year or a 4 year residency? Are you interested in any fellowships? Do you plan on pursuing an academic or community career? Do you see yourself becoming involved in research as an attending physician?
 
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Firstly, how important is research to matching into med school affiliated EM residencies in desirable locations?
Not all that important. It's helpful, yes, particularly for programs that are more research heavy and have a higher proportion of their graduates going into academics as opposed to community medicine. Your board scores and performance on EM rotations in the 4th year of medical school will matter much much more heavily.

Would an EM research project completed during the summer between M1 and M2 suffice to be competitive, presuming strong board scores and evaluations? Or should one strive to do research along with school?
If you're bound and determined to get research done to "check the box" (which I don't think you need to do for EM) then that's fine. A more meaningful project will be something that you stick with a little bit longer. But a project whose work is done between M1 and M2 year may require work writing a publication and presenting research throughout the next year as well. Just keep in mind that this isn't bench research, so oftentimes projects won't line up very well with the summer. You may need to be more flexible if you want to latch onto a project.

What's the deal with away rotations? Are you supposed to them at the institution you wish to match at? Do you get housing? I understand that a component of the grade for some (or all?) consists of your performance on a shelf exam. Is the case for EM rotations? Since you need to do multiple EM rotations, would you take the exam multiple times.
So the purpose of doing an away rotation is to satisfy the Standardized Letter of Evaluation (SLOE) requirement, which for most EM programs is to have two of these letters. If your home institution in medical school has an EM program then that's one of them, so you'll need to do at least one away rotation to obtain the second letter. The letters are supposed to be written as a sort of collaboration from the entire program and consistent of several standardized questions that the program answers about your performance. You can google and find a sample of what the SLOE form looks like. Conventional wisdom states that doing these away rotations and performing well at them is also a good way to get your foot in the door at that specific program. In addition, it can open up an entire region to you that you may have otherwise had a harder time standing out from the crowd. For instance, if you're located in the midwest but are interested in several west coast programs, doing an away rotation at a west coast program will also help make your application appear more serious when you send applications out to other west coast program, and the letter from that program will carry more weight since its written by somebody they are more familiar with. I did two away rotations and one home rotation. At my home rotation, part of our grade was from the SAEM standardized exam. At one rotation it was from taking the NBME shelf exam. At the last rotation there was no exam. The SAEM exam has multiple forms so nobody ever takes the same exam multiple times. At the institution where the NBME shelf exam was administered, anybody who had taken it before was offered one of the SAEM test forms as a replacement.


Do you have any advice for obtaining strong (subjective) evaluations. The prospect of my competitiveness hinging on what my evaluators happen to think of me worries me. Are subjective evaluations more important for EM than for any other specialty?
Be awesome. But really, work hard. Don't sit on your haunches and be a wallflower. Go wherever the action is taking place. Offer to go see patients in a non-obnoxious way that doesn't give the resident you're working with more work to do. Be somebody we want to be around at 3am. Know enough medicine that we don't think you're dumb, but you don't need to be some type of EM rockstar who knows it all either. It might not seem fair, but for the rest of your career you're going to be evaluated subjectively by your program, the nursing staff, and your patients. You have to be able to "play the game" so to speak when it comes to demonstrating confidence and likability to other people. Every specialty has letters of recommendation as a part of the evaluation process; we just have a process that makes it to where our letters actually carry weight and ask the programs to compare the applicants more objectively than just "yeah, DubbiDoctor is great and did a good job."

What were the roles of mid levels in the EDs you've worked in/rotated at? Were they always distinguished from the physicians or were their roles ever close to being interchangeable? Since EM requires relatively few years of training, and mid level residencies have become more common, do you foresee hospitals hiring more midlevels (and thus fewer physicians) to reduce costs?
Our advance practice practitioners (PAs and NPs) work most of their clinical time in our "fast track" where they see low acuity patients that have been triaged to sitting in an open chairs area instead of being roomed in the main ER. In this sense, it allows us to see more sick patients. Our APPs also work a few shifts in the main ER. They generally see the lower acuity patients that get roomed. They generally do not take patients in our critical resuscitation rooms, our trauma bay, stroke alerts, and the like. I work in a very busy ER and their help is very appreciated. I see enough "bread and butter" emergency medicine in my training that I do not believe they are hurting my education and as I said before, all the critically ill patients are my playground exclusively. My experience is limited to my institution but I do not believe our APPs would ever feel comfortable being able to work in an ER completely independently. Emergency Medicine is complex and the breadth of knowledge is very wide and includes many aspects of critical care that really requires a board certified EM physician to handle. I do not foresee a significant decline in EM job opportunities as a result of APP use in the ER.

Are you doing a 3 year or a 4 year residency? Are you interested in any fellowships? Do you plan on pursuing an academic or community career? Do you see yourself becoming involved in research as an attending physician?
Three year residency for me. I did not apply to four year programs. I am considering a fellowship in ultrasound since it's a personal interest of mine, but I may also forego the formal fellowship. At this point in time I do not anticipate going straight into academics after residency. I would like to work independently in the community for a period of time and if I come to the point that I find that work unfulfilling, I would strongly consider coming back to academics. I like the environment and I like education, but I'm feeling the itch to leave the nest so to speak and learn my craft on my own. If I do come back to academics, at this point I do not foresee research being a significant portion of my career.
 
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What's the best advice you can give to a struggling pre-med undergrad student who aspires to be a doc in the ER someday? :)
 
What's the best advice you can give to a struggling pre-med undergrad student who aspires to be a doc in the ER someday? :)

I had some dark times in the middle of undergrad where I doubted whether I would succeed and whether I needed to consider another career path (a little below average GPA coupled with a little below average MCAT score). I doubled down, played to my strengths, worked hard in medical school, and now I’ve just found out that I scored top of my residency class on the in-training exam (our practice written boards). Recognize that the road is hard, but you aren’t aspiring to be a pre-medical student or even a medical student. You want to be a doctor. Just because you are struggling does not mean you are on the incorrect path.
 
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Did you initially find certain procedures to be a little "gross" when you started your residency? You mentioned abscess drainage, and I wouldn't say that's something I would enjoy doing at this point in time..
 
What do you see as the biggest paradigm shift in EM technology-wise?
 
Did you initially find certain procedures to be a little "gross" when you started your residency? You mentioned abscess drainage, and I wouldn't say that's something I would enjoy doing at this point in time..

Well they may not always smell pleasant, but I have to admit I find them oddly satisfying. Simple procedure, generally low risk, provides the patient immediate symptom relief, doesn't tie up a bunch of time in my day, etc. I wouldn't want to do them all day, but amidst a see of medical workups it can be nice to do something with your hands for once. I find that people generally overplay the grossness factor in medicine. There's an initial "ugh" when seeing some things for the first time, but after the anatomy lab and getting in the operating room as an M3, I would say almost everybody can set aside the gross factor.

What do you see as the biggest paradigm shift in EM technology-wise?

So the obvious answer is bedside ultrasound. With it, I can quickly evaluate a patient's fluid status, cardiac function, rule out large pneumothorax, evaluate lung parenchyma for large consolidation, effusions, or fluid overload, screen the abdomen for large volumes of fluid, evaluate the gallbladder, biliary ducts, and size of the abdominal aorta. Honestly in the evaluation of undifferentiated shock, it's really an essential tool in my shed to be able to evaluate the patient's cardiac function.

Less clinically, I think you're going to see the implementation of big data more intelligently in ED operations. We can predict when patient "surge" is most likely to occur and I think it's only logical that we adjust our staffing to move along with these predictions. I think we are also going to see the ER use its population demographics to offer more screening tests to all patients coming through the door for certain illnesses, such as HIV. There are a couple locations that have opt-out HIV testing for all patients that get blood draws in the ER (i.e. you have to say "no I do not want testing" or else you get it).
 
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What is the general pay for an EM resident and what are your hours like?
 
1) Does your residency permit moonlighting? If so, which year do you have to be in order to do that?
2) For that matter how much time do you have in your program to actually moonlight?
 
What is the general pay for an EM resident and what are your hours like?
All PGY-1 residents at my institution make about 50k per year and progressively increases by close to 2k per year. I work 20 shifts per month when I am in the Emergency Department and they are between 9 and 10 hours long.

1) Does your residency permit moonlighting? If so, which year do you have to be in order to do that?
2) For that matter how much time do you have in your program to actually moonlight?
We are permitted to moonlight as beginning at the start of PGY-2 year in-house as with PD approval and contingent upon scoring well enough on the in-service exam in the spring of the previous year. We have in-house moonlighting (i.e. pick up an extra shift doing the same job you'd normally do) but later in the PGY-2 year residents are allowed to moonlight externally. I would say about every resident does moonlight at some point. Some only do it when they have extra time off like on a vacation month which gives a shift reduction. Some choose to do it just about every month.
 
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EM has a short residency, variety in patients, both cerebral and surgical, good pay, no call. What's the catch? Why shouldn't people go into EM?
 
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EM has a short residency, variety in patients, both cerebral and surgical, good pay, no call. What's the catch? Why shouldn't people go into EM?
A concern with EM is that its reliance on shift work likely increases the risk of dementia: Shift Work in Midlife Increases Risk of Dementia. Did you consider this, OP? EM physicians also retire at the earliest age of all physicians (despite not making close to the most money). Do you believe that EM challenges older physicians to a greater extent, and do you see yourself continuing to work in your late 50s and 60s?
 
EM has a short residency, variety in patients, both cerebral and surgical, good pay, no call. What's the catch? Why shouldn't people go into EM?

Shift work is nice because there’s no call, but shift work also sucks because it means you’ll be working nights, weekends, and holidays. The intensity of the work while you’re on shift is greater than the same amount of time on other inpatient services. There’s very little prestige in EM; people will still call you a triage nurse. You’ll always be accused of consulting too early or too late. Every specialty will Monday Morning Quarterback your decision making. There’s no specialty that is as mocked openly as EM. You’ll never be considered the “expert” the way other specialists get to be (though I’d argue we are the specialists in both resuscitation and toxicology). You’ll find that many medical students see the ER and say “no way in Hell am I doing this.” And burnout among EM is high. We do high intensity work during irregular hours seeing the worst of the human experience by people that rarely give you credit for your work. It’s a recipe for feeling burned out.

A concern with EM is that its reliance on shift work likely increases the risk of dementia: Shift Work in Midlife Increases Risk of Dementia. Did you consider this, OP? EM physicians also retire at the earliest age of all physicians (despite not making close to the most money). Do you believe that EM challenges older physicians to a greater extent, and do you see yourself continuing to work in your late 50s and 60s?

Yeah I think moreso than the long term consequences, I think I’ve always found that I function pretty well on less sleep, working on nights, shifting schedules, etc. better than most of my med school colleagues. The study’s findings are modest and demonstrate a correlation at best. That said, you’ll see that a lot of physicians try to cut back on shifts, cut out their night, etc. as they get older and I don’t blame them.

All that said, I hope to be financially independent in my 50s. I hope I’m only working because I still enjoy it and think I’m good at it. If I’m feeling burned out then, my plan is to be in a financial position that I can just leave. Also, many EM physicians pick up an additional income stream which can give even more options for leaving clinical work if it becomes too great a burden later in life.
 
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Shift work is nice because there’s no call, but shift work also sucks because it means you’ll be working nights, weekends, and holidays. The intensity of the work while you’re on shift is greater than the same amount of time on other inpatient services. There’s very little prestige in EM; people will still call you a triage nurse. You’ll always be accused of consulting too early or too late. Every specialty will Monday Morning Quarterback your decision making. There’s no specialty that is as mocked openly as EM. You’ll never be considered the “expert” the way other specialists get to be (though I’d argue we are the specialists in both resuscitation and toxicology). You’ll find that many medical students see the ER and say “no way in Hell am I doing this.” And burnout among EM is high. We do high intensity work during irregular hours seeing the worst of the human experience by people that rarely give you credit for your work. It’s a recipe for feeling burned out.



Yeah I think moreso than the long term consequences, I think I’ve always found that I function pretty well on less sleep, working on nights, shifting schedules, etc. better than most of my med school colleagues. The study’s findings are modest and demonstrate a correlation at best. That said, you’ll see that a lot of physicians try to cut back on shifts, cut out their night, etc. as they get older and I don’t blame them.

All that said, I hope to be financially independent in my 50s. I hope I’m only working because I still enjoy it and think I’m good at it. If I’m feeling burned out then, my plan is to be in a financial position that I can just leave. Also, many EM physicians pick up an additional income stream which can give even more options for leaving clinical work if it becomes too great a burden later in life.
In what way is EM openly mocked? Never thought of it as a highly prestigious field, but didn't think that it was put down by others in the field. Doesn't impact my opinion of it, but I'm a bit curious as to why that would be.
 
In what way is EM openly mocked? Never thought of it as a highly prestigious field, but didn't think that it was put down by others in the field. Doesn't impact my opinion of it, but I'm a bit curious as to why that would be.

It's not rampant, don't get me wrong. For the most part relationships are professional. It really happens mostly in academics. Imagine you're a salaried resident working on a busy service and you get called all night from the ER to admit new patients; every phone call represents uncompensated labor. If the calls didn't come in, you'd be paid the same amount for doing less work. I completely understand why people are frustrated to hear from the ER. Now imagine you're that frustrated and the ER did or didn't do something that you think should be done for the patient (i.e. order a specific test, start a particular maintenance fluid, etc.). It's very easy in these cases to think "Oh those ER docs have no idea what they're doing." Every specialty you consult will know more about what you're consulting them about than you do, which is a humbling experience and opens the ER up to scrutiny. I.e. I manage a cardiac condition in the ER before consulting a Cardiologist; naturally if I don't do every little thing the exact same way that they would, and you combine that with a Cardiologist who's frustrated at being consulted because it's uncompensated labor, and you have a recipe for ridicule.

Every ER doc will be called a triage nurse at some point. If you can't handle that, it's not the field for you.
 
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Also keep in mind that we are a relatively young specialty. ERs in many places are still staffed by physicians who are not trained formally in Emergency Medicine and can provide questionable care, which can reflect poorly on EM in general. As we are a newer specialty, we are just now getting to the point where EM trained physicians are rising the ranks in the medical echelon and becoming deans, vice presidents, etc.
 
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Also keep in mind that we are a relatively young specialty. ERs in many places are still staffed by physicians who are not trained formally in Emergency Medicine and can provide questionable care, which can reflect poorly on EM in general. As we are a newer specialty, we are just now getting to the point where EM trained physicians are rising the ranks in the medical echelon and becoming deans, vice presidents, etc.

Do you feel like them making it a separate specialty will help improve patient care? I have been talking with some European med students and they get confused when I say I want to specialize in Emergencey Medicine because GPs do the job over there. I feel like I would have liked it better if it wasn´t its own specialty to allow for more career flexibility.
 
What would u say are the biggest misconceptions of EM? Also, do you see the salary shrinking in the next 10-20 years?
 
I tried doing some quick google-fu to pull up the actual research publication and not just this editorial. Would you happen to have a link to the actual paper? I'd be curious to actually read it. I don't think anybody who's honest with themselves in the world of EM will deny that Orthopedics is oftentimes out weakest discipline. Most EM residencies are in large academic hospitals with an in-house orthopedics program and the ability to obtain real-time consultation can be a hindrance to our ability to practice a lot of reduction and splinting. That said, some of the examples in the article (missed open fracture resulting in delayed antibiotic administration, in particular) appears quite egregious.
I'm pretty sure it was a conference presentation. I don't know if they've published a paper on it. I've personally caught several (50+) instances of missed open fractures, missed dislocations, etc. I honestly don't usually blame you guys, it's called distracting injury for a reason. I put that up there mostly for humor. That being said the error rate they cite jives with my personal experience.

Did you initially find certain procedures to be a little "gross" when you started your residency? You mentioned abscess drainage, and I wouldn't say that's something I would enjoy doing at this point in time..
I can think of only 2 specialties that don't deal w infections - psych and rads. Medicine in general is gross yo

In what way is EM openly mocked? Never thought of it as a highly prestigious field, but didn't think that it was put down by others in the field. Doesn't impact my opinion of it, but I'm a bit curious as to why that would be.
Really? Like the 3rd post here was some dickhead bone jockey making fun of the OP

It's not rampant, don't get me wrong. For the most part relationships are professional. It really happens mostly in academics. Imagine you're a salaried resident working on a busy service and you get called all night from the ER to admit new patients; every phone call represents uncompensated labor. If the calls didn't come in, you'd be paid the same amount for doing less work. I completely understand why people are frustrated to hear from the ER.
I can't speak for some other specialties like medicine, but by and large orthopods aren't afraid of work. The frustration usually comes in because early workup and decision making can have significant and lasting impact, and a few wrong turns can be legitimately devastating.
 
Do you feel like them making it a separate specialty will help improve patient care? I have been talking with some European med students and they get confused when I say I want to specialize in Emergencey Medicine because GPs do the job over there. I feel like I would have liked it better if it wasn´t its own specialty to allow for more career flexibility.

I think Emergency Medicine does deserve to be its own medical specialty. Providing care in the Emergency Department requires specialized training that no other discipline adequately covers over the course of their residency. Family Medicine may come closest as they care for adults, children, and has some training in women's health, but I do not believe that they have sufficient critical care or trauma training.

What would u say are the biggest misconceptions of EM? Also, do you see the salary shrinking in the next 10-20 years?

Really depends on which demographic group you're talking about. Among pre-meds I would say that they thing EM is all action and trauma. Among others in medicine that do not have Emergency Medicine experience, I think that its difficult to appreciate the amount of information that we juggle in terms of risk stratification and evidence based medicine used in our decision tools and diagnostics.

I'm pretty sure it was a conference presentation. I don't know if they've published a paper on it. I've personally caught several (50+) instances of missed open fractures, missed dislocations, etc. I honestly don't usually blame you guys, it's called distracting injury for a reason. I put that up there mostly for humor. That being said the error rate they cite jives with my personal experience.

I can't speak for some other specialties like medicine, but by and large orthopods aren't afraid of work. The frustration usually comes in because early workup and decision making can have significant and lasting impact, and a few wrong turns can be legitimately devastating.

Missed open fractures are a big deal. Who knows, maybe I just need to do more chart reviews on routine trauma patients that I'm admitting. I wouldn't be surprised if I've missed shoulder dislocations on a polytrauma patient, however. That said, if there's an extremity would that isn't very obviously superficial on my trauma patients, that extremity is going to get plain films. Maybe that's lazy, but I agree that the consequences of delayed antibiotics are severe.

You guys work your asses off, and this is coming from somebody who interacts with every medical specialty. You have my respect.
 
Hey man! I'm in the same mindset you were entering med school. Love EM, but open to learn about all specialties.
Anyways, 1. How many hours a week do EM residents work? I know as a practicing EM physician the weekly hours are more flexible, but how about in residency? 2. Is it hard to get a 3 year residency vs. 4, and after 3 years of residency can you directly work for a full salary in the ER or do you need a fellowship or something?
 
Hey man! I'm in the same mindset you were entering med school. Love EM, but open to learn about all specialties.
Anyways, 1. How many hours a week do EM residents work? I know as a practicing EM physician the weekly hours are more flexible, but how about in residency? 2. Is it hard to get a 3 year residency vs. 4, and after 3 years of residency can you directly work for a full salary in the ER or do you need a fellowship or something?

1) ACGME mandates a 60 hour per week limit (averaged over 4 weeks) of clinical time seeing patients with 72 hours as the limit including non-clinical responsibilities such as weekly conference time. At my institution, we work about 20 9-10 hour shifts per month which comes out to somewhere in the neighborhood of 45-50 hours per week. This is in contrast to after residency when a typical full time EM physician is working more like 14 shifts per month. Weekly hours don’t really matter; I just need to get 20 shifts in by the end of the month. The work in the ER is busy and there’s a lot of day/night switching which can eat what would otherwise be a decent number of days off in a month, but I do feel like I can maintain a life outside of medicine.

2) Most programs are 3 year residencies so it’s most likely you’ll go to a 3 year program. 4 year programs tend to be more academic and are really more for people that are interested in pursuing an academic career immediately after residency, though a lot of 4 year grads still go to the community and there are lots of very academically focused 3 year programs so take that with a grain of salt. Graduates of 3 and 4 year programs can both get a job just about anywhere; 95% of jobs don’t care which kind you did. The only difference is that if you’re a 3 year program graduate, you will probably not get hired in an academic position supervising residents at a 4 year program for obvious reasons (you’d be supervising 4th year residents presumably just as experienced as you are). Though I’ve known cases where 3 year graduates have gone to work at 4 year academic programs and they’ve simply been put on schedules that does not have them supervising PGY-4s.
 
1) ACGME mandates a 60 hour per week limit (averaged over 4 weeks) of clinical time seeing patients with 72 hours as the limit including non-clinical responsibilities such as weekly conference time. At my institution, we work about 20 9-10 hour shifts per month which comes out to somewhere in the neighborhood of 45-50 hours per week. This is in contrast to after residency when a typical full time EM physician is working more like 14 shifts per month. Weekly hours don’t really matter; I just need to get 20 shifts in by the end of the month. The work in the ER is busy and there’s a lot of day/night switching which can eat what would otherwise be a decent number of days off in a month, but I do feel like I can maintain a life outside of medicine.

2) Most programs are 3 year residencies so it’s most likely you’ll go to a 3 year program. 4 year programs tend to be more academic and are really more for people that are interested in pursuing an academic career immediately after residency, though a lot of 4 year grads still go to the community and there are lots of very academically focused 3 year programs so take that with a grain of salt. Graduates of 3 and 4 year programs can both get a job just about anywhere; 95% of jobs don’t care which kind you did. The only difference is that if you’re a 3 year program graduate, you will probably not get hired in an academic position supervising residents at a 4 year program for obvious reasons (you’d be supervising 4th year residents presumably just as experienced as you are). Though I’ve known cases where 3 year graduates have gone to work at 4 year academic programs and they’ve simply been put on schedules that does not have them supervising PGY-4s.

Thank you! Your input has been enlightening. I'm currently applying to med school and am open minded on specialty, but something inside of me is tugging towards EM.
 
Can you talk about burnout? I know EM has the highest burnout and that's one of the only things im worried about for this speciality. Any reason why you think it is ? maybe the personality of people who go into it or something elese?
 
For someone who is starting medical school in a few months, I'm very ignorant about what happens next. You already touched a bit on your away rotations and such, but could you maybe elaborate on that? When do you have to decide what specialty you want? Is it difficult to get into away rotations, is there a competitive aspect? Are test scores, research, and letters all that goes into matching into a residency? Do you know if it's possible to get into the specialty you want if you are limited to one particular city (I have kids and couldn't move for medical school, won't be able to for residency)? Feel free to ignore any or all of these questions if they seem too dumb. And thank you for taking the time to do this. Your responses are so helpful.
 
Can you talk about burnout? I know EM has the highest burnout and that's one of the only things im worried about for this speciality. Any reason why you think it is ? maybe the personality of people who go into it or something elese?

Burnout is a big topic and the focus of a lot of research and education right now. Addressing burnout is now essentially an educational mandate for EM now. EM specific factors related to burnout include the nature of shift work (i.e. the nights, weekends, and holidays), the high intensity of working in the ER (always being "on" with oftentimes no breaks during a shift), the emotionally draining work that we do, including being the front lines to seeing the worst of humanity such as death, child abuse, sexual assault, etc. I am obviously relatively new to the practice of Emergency Medicine but I will say that there are individual factors at work when it comes to feeling burnout as well. I think this is something that everybody has to take a mental inventory of. Many medical students feel burned out by the end of it all; I was not one of those students. I think people that feel the worst burnout know relatively early on that this is a problem for them.

For someone who is starting medical school in a few months, I'm very ignorant about what happens next. You already touched a bit on your away rotations and such, but could you maybe elaborate on that? When do you have to decide what specialty you want? Is it difficult to get into away rotations, is there a competitive aspect? Are test scores, research, and letters all that goes into matching into a residency? Do you know if it's possible to get into the specialty you want if you are limited to one particular city (I have kids and couldn't move for medical school, won't be able to for residency)? Feel free to ignore any or all of these questions if they seem too dumb. And thank you for taking the time to do this. Your responses are so helpful.

I think that most of your questions will be best served in a few months on the Allopathic forum, but I can give a cliff notes version. For Emergency Medicine, Dermatology, and some competitive surgical subspecialties, it is a defacto requirement to spend 1 or 2 months as a 4th year medical student doing a visiting rotation at another institution in that specialty in order to gain additional letters of recommendation. Because of this requirement, people going into these specialties generally have to decide on their field in February/March of the third year of medical school. It is generally not incredibly difficult to get away rotations, but it can be challenging to get a specific away rotation if it has many applicants (i.e. for whatever reason is considered a more desirable program based on location, prestige, etc.). I would say board scores, class rank, letters of recommendation (and by extension performance on visiting rotations), research, and obviously performance on the interview day are the most important things that go into matching a particular residency. You will be incredibly limited if you have to stay in your particular city for residency - in Emergency medicine for instance it is advisable to go on at least 10-12 interviews in order to confer the best possible chance of matching. Over the next 4 years you may need to start thinking about the consequences of matching at another location for residency. While moving may be a challenge for you and your family, I fear the consequences of not matching into a residency could be worse.

Fan of alteplase or no?

I'd want it if I had a giant ass stroke. If I had a very mild stroke it would depend on the deficit and I would weigh the risks. It is standard of care to offer it at every stroke alert within the tPA window and I have never had a patient/family refuse it who qualified for it. I think the concern that some EM physicians have is that it is used as a blunt instrument and patients are not always adequately educated that it isn't unreasonable to decline tPA.
 
For someone who is starting medical school in a few months, I'm very ignorant about what happens next. You already touched a bit on your away rotations and such, but could you maybe elaborate on that? When do you have to decide what specialty you want? Is it difficult to get into away rotations, is there a competitive aspect? Are test scores, research, and letters all that goes into matching into a residency? Do you know if it's possible to get into the specialty you want if you are limited to one particular city (I have kids and couldn't move for medical school, won't be able to for residency)? Feel free to ignore any or all of these questions if they seem too dumb. And thank you for taking the time to do this. Your responses are so helpful.

Chances of matching into one particular city are extremely low. Good news is that you can take your kids with you when you move ;)
 
I can think of only 2 specialties that don't deal w infections - psych and rads. Medicine in general is gross yo

Hey, IR and body imagers can do abscess drainages and cholecystostomies. MSK radiologists can also do joint aspirations for septic joints.

Abscess draining is sooooo satisfying. It's like popping a bigger zit.

My question for OP: what's your opinion on Surviving Sepsis and its protocols? In the name of saving lives, are we salt-water drowning many others?
 
My question for OP: what's your opinion on Surviving Sepsis and its protocols? In the name of saving lives, are we salt-water drowning many others?

Like any blunt instrument, it's very good at fixing blunt problems. Sepsis is a fun spectrum of illness. Surviving Sepsis is great; I think helps identify Sepsis quickly, get antibiotics started quickly, and we get the first bag of fluid hanging quickly. Now the question is if 30cc/kg of fluid in the initial bolus is appropriate for every patient, and the answer is obviously not! Some patients need much more ;)

No but really, there are obvious dangers to adopting the blunt instrument of massive fluid boluses to every patient with a heart rate of 120, SBP of 90, and a fever. The most serious danger is that we are giving a massive fluid bolus to a patient who is not in sepsis but is instead in a very fluid sensitive state of heart failure (the most dreaded case being something like a young patient with viral myocarditis). Other concerns I think are a little overblown. I don't care about hyperchloremic metabolic acidosis. I don't care all that much about pulmonary edema in a patient who I actually think is in sepsis; they still need intravascular volume repletion and sometimes these patients just need to be intubated. As for what I do, I try to do a RUSH protocol ultrasound on all of these hypotensive patients. Is their IVC a flat pancake? Flood em. Is it huge and plump? Better make sure the heart looks good and take it easy on my fluids. I'm a doctor, not a protocol slave.
 
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Chances of matching into one particular city are extremely low. Good news is that you can take your kids with you when you move ;)

Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I can't move. I'm divorced and there are court orders. Luckily for me, I live in Chicago so maybe my chances will be higher than elsewhere? I'm only responding in case anyone else might come across this. Because I was told the same thing here 4 years ago when I started undergrad and was wondering what my chances would be of staying in Chicago for medical school. I got accepted to multiple schools in Chicago, ultimately.
 
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Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, I can't move. I'm divorced and there are court orders. Luckily for me, I live in Chicago so maybe my chances will be higher than elsewhere? I'm only responding in case anyone else might come across this. Because I was told the same thing here 4 years ago when I started undergrad and was wondering what my chances would be of staying in Chicago for medical school. I got accepted to multiple schools in Chicago, ultimately.

I apologize for the difficulties you are facing; without knowing more about the specifics of your court order (and no, you don't need to elaborate further) I can't offer much more insight about that. I will say that Chicago will provide more opportunities to stay local than most metropolitan areas between all the academic hospitals nearby. The last thing I will suggest, and this is a little extreme, is to consider applying to more than one specialty within your city (i.e. applying to both internal medicine and family medicine programs, for instance) in order to maximize your chances of matching.
 
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Hey your thread is very informative. I had questions about EM physicians who go on to do Critical Care fellowships. Is this a common track to follow or will it be uphill trying to match into that kind of fellowship with an EM background?

Can you talk about the role someone with this background would have following completion of the fellowship? (will they work in the ED or in the ICU?)

Would you be able to work similar to an internist who is trained in pulm/critical care medicine? How about acute care surgery who also round in the ICU?

Any other information you have on this specific topic would be appreciated. Thank you!
 
Hey your thread is very informative. I had questions about EM physicians who go on to do Critical Care fellowships. Is this a common track to follow or will it be uphill trying to match into that kind of fellowship with an EM background?

Can you talk about the role someone with this background would have following completion of the fellowship? (will they work in the ED or in the ICU?)

Would you be able to work similar to an internist who is trained in pulm/critical care medicine? How about acute care surgery who also round in the ICU?

Any other information you have on this specific topic would be appreciated. Thank you!

Sorry for the delayed response!

From the experience I've seen some of my co-residents had getting into critical care fellowships, I would say that it was slightly more difficult than for our internal medicine colleagues (when it came to getting medical ICU positions) - it's still somewhat a 'new thing' for EM folks to apply to these programs. It's becoming more common, however.

As to where these folks work, I've seen several practice models. I've seen some who work exclusively in ICUs (akin to a medicine intensivist who no longer works clinic/hospitalist work any more); I've also seen practice models where they'll work half the month in the ICU and half the month working ER shifts; finally there are the few "ED ICU" models out there, though I don't personally know anybody working in that practice setting.

After completing a medical or surgical ICU fellowship, you're training to work identically as any other fellow training individual in the ICU. No, you won't be doing pulmonary clinic or operating in the OR. But within the walls of the unit, it's your playground too.
 
I am very interested in doing toxicology, but I am also curious about urgent care. Do you mind touching on urgent care, such as how they are setup/pay/feel(primary care or ED).

My goal is to work part time as a toxicologist and part time ED physician (urgent care).
 
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