ENDO residency

[OU11BB]

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I know its difficult to match with ortho and oafs, but what about endo?
Is endo residency tough to get into?

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

Yes. Tough. Probably just as tough. Too 10, etc etc. Generally those residencies whose income potential is greater than that of a general dentist are tough to get into and always will be.

Except Perio. For some reason no one wants to do that.

 

[mmasurf]

dont believe the hype, with every GP doing endo and referring nothing out and with any possibly low prognosis becoming an implant, endo is suffering.

 

[Rlow04]

dont believe the hype, with every GP doing endo and referring nothing out and with any possibly low prognosis becoming an implant, endo is suffering.

While it's true that the average specialist makes more than the average dentist, the GPs that aggressively expand their skill set and learn to run a business well make more than the average specialist (assuming a decent area to practice in). GPs are also more resilient during a down economy because the refer less, leading to the specialists suffering more. If you like endo, OS, or perio, just learn to do all of them in office through CE.

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

^Relying on CE courses sounds like a good way to ensure substandard care for your patients. We have specialists for a reason.

 

[ChuckDAT]

I would have to agree with Muggsby. CE credits do not unsure sound treatment methods. I would question your patient care if you performed a Complex (surgical) root canal therapy on a patient with your only backing being CE credits. I understand that Each case is unique, and GP's differ in comfort level. However, it makes sense to Refer out for the complex therapy and restore the tooth once the specialist has completed treatment. Works great for the patients care and the economics of the GP's practice. Make the specialist part of your patient care "team".

 

[goffdent]

I don't think he's automatically assuming perform root end resection in endo, soft and hard tissue bone grafts in perio, and cleft-lip palate surgeries in OS.... obviously!

However.. performing more molar root canals that are at least straightforward, reflecting a flap to do more thorough scaling and root planing, or extracting some impacted 3rds is not out of scope and something a GP can do in "down times.." and any other time for that matter.

 

[OceanDMD]

This is the typical protect your turf response

There are substandard specialists out there as well, and there is appropriate training for general dentists to expand their skills. I work with a general dentist who does block grafts, sinus lifts, implants, etc...and outcomes are no different than my OMFS down the street.

 

[Muggsy Bogues]

This is the typical protect your turf response

There are substandard specialists out there as well, and there is appropriate training for general dentists to expand their skills. I work with a general dentist who does block grafts, sinus lifts, implants, etc...and outcomes are no different than my OMFS down the street.

Nah. Just a PSA advising against dentists dipping into fields they may not be entirely competent in.

 

[alxspider]

Nah. Just a PSA advising against dentists dipping into fields they may not be entirely competent in.

How are you so fast? Does being short affect your work? How did it feel being taunted by Mike?

 

[billythekid]

While it's true that the average specialist makes more than the average dentist, the GPs that aggressively expand their skill set and learn to run a business well make more than the average specialist (assuming a decent area to practice in). GPs are also more resilient during a down economy because the refer less, leading to the specialists suffering more. If you like endo, OS, or perio, just learn to do all of them in office through CE.

Spoken from the seasoned words of a 2nd year dental student. Are you even in clinic yet? Try doing retreatment root canal therapy on #2.

 

[ChuckDAT]

Spoken from the seasoned words of a 2nd year dental student. Are you even in clinic yet? Try doing retreatment root canal therapy on #2.

Well put. I start Dental School in the fall, but I have been an office manager for the past year of a GP practice. Both of the dentist at the practice are very meticulous on case selection and the economics of those decisions. The point being.....there is no reason to do a RCT on 2 if there is a possibility. Neither dentist has a clinical problem doing them (as they have been practicing for right at 2 decades). However it is not the best decision for the patient or practice to do a complex procedure that a specialist down the street is set up for.

"That is why we have specialist."

Lets get back to the OP though. It's not worth going back and forth over varying treatment opinions

 

[jay47]

Spoken from the seasoned words of a 2nd year dental student. Are you even in clinic yet? Try doing retreatment root canal therapy on #2.

If you will notice, he didn't say any specific endo surgeries, he just said "root canal therapy". I did some in dental school myself.

Instead of being dismissive, try to take a little advice. You SHOULD expand your knowledge base with good CE, quite frequently taught by the very same people who teach at the specialty residencies. I don't think the poster was implying that you should do things outside your boundaries, but that you should expand your boundaries both to improve your current care level and to increase profitability.

 

[ChuckDAT]

What would be your order of importance for getting into an endo residency?

1. Class rank
2. Research
3. Volunteer
4 externships

I am sure if it is like getting into dental, then it is being well rounded on all the above. How do you stick out?

 

[Elipar]

Endo is not dying. It's more challenging in certain locales than others, but endo is still an important part of dentistry.

As far as who can make more, it depends on the person. There are endos that are doing $1M+, just like there are GPs doing the same. If you're good at what you do, fast, and have excellent business-sense, you'll do fine no matter what "specialty" you choose.

Is endo hard to get into? Dunno... I got into an endo residency, but never tried applying to anything else so I can't compare. It was competitive, no doubt. I applied to 13 schools, got interviews at 6, and was accepted at 1. I wasn't a top-tier candidate, so I wasn't expecting much though. Good luck.

 

[jay47]

What would be your order of importance for getting into an endo residency?

1. Class rank
2. Research
3. Volunteer
4 externships

I am sure if it is like getting into dental, then it is being well rounded on all the above. How do you stick out?

It varies from program to program is the answer. Some programs basically REQUIRE at least 1 year of dental field experience, some don't care. In GENERAL, however, I think that most place a significant emphasis on class rank.

 

[chfried]

Yes, it is highly competitive. I start my residency this summer and during my interviews, all the programs say that every year the applicant pool gets larger and more competitive. Some programs would get 150+ applicants, interview 15, accept 3 to 4. I have been in practice 2 years, was something like 40/110 class rank (which generally is a bit low), 83/91 on boards, 3.6gpa. They all asked why my part I was so low. Most of my co-applicants had stats that were MUCH better than mine, but a lot of them you could tell were only applying BECAUSE they had the stats. Directors can see right through that.

I talked to the director at my former dental school before applying and she advised having some research experience, so a friend and I did some research on local anesthetics and managed to get it written up and published. Try to find some research to get involved with, spend some time in an endo office.

Here's my advice. If you are still in school and hoping to go into endo, be aware that most programs are going to want experience. Be that AEGD/GPR or private practice, it really doesnt matter, but some places wont even look at your application straight out of school. Generally, all the programs I was contacted by liked having experience. It seems that in talking to the various programs, some really care about your numbers, some are more about seeing the whole person and will extend an interview invite if they like your statement or if you have shown interest in their program specifically.

Shoot me an email, I would be happy to discuss this with you more. Ive been all over the country with this process and think I have a good understanding of what you are going to experience. I applied to every endo program except the military ones or the ones in NY and CA (don't wanna live in those places). So something like 40 applications. I got interview invites from 25, attended 6 interviews, got an offer from and accepted my first choice school on my way back to the airport from leaving the interview; I didn't even bother with further interviews.

It is going to be a lot of paperwork, a lot of ass kissing, a lot of allowing people to ask you rather belittling questions designed to put you on the spot and make you squirm. They want to try and make you feel uncertain, defensive, and incompetent to challenge your motivation and see how you respond. Most of them are good people, who are charged with filling their residency slots from a large pool of candidates that are more qualified than at any time before...they have to find some way to differentiate you.

Do an externship if need be, try and get involved with some research, find people (even outside of endo) who will write you strong, genuine letters, and find out why you REALLY want to do this. Once you do, put that down on paper and make that your application essay. Do NOT make this decision based on financial outcome, etc. Ive been a GP, and you can do very well. Generally specialists earn more, but if I could keep my current income (even as an associate) and do endo all day, be the absolute best at the one thing I enjoy most, I'd still do endo. Dont do it because you think its SOMEewhat interesting, or because of status, perceived financial gain etc... it is not easy to be successful as a specialist. It takes someone willing to work hard to cultivate a referral base, you have to be outgoing, able to attract business from other dentists while pleasing patients, and doing excellent work that makes those GPs want to refer to you again. I work with a broad range of specialists; some are great and some are horrible and will never get my business again. keep that in mind and see if all of that suits you.

[email protected]

 

[Contach]

Yes. Tough. Probably just as tough. Too 10, etc etc. Generally those residencies whose income potential is greater than that of a general dentist are tough to get into and always will be.

Except Perio. For some reason no one wants to do that.

I don't think Endo is nearly as tough as ortho or omfs. Someone with 86 on boards would not get interviews in OMFS.

However, endo's income is very good at the moment. I think it's not as tough, because it isn't as interesting as omfs, and it isn't as comfortable as ortho.

 

[Contach]

Yes, it is highly competitive. I start my residency this summer and during my interviews, all the programs say that every year the applicant pool gets larger and more competitive. Some programs would get 150+ applicants, interview 15, accept 3 to 4. I have been in practice 2 years, was something like 40/110 class rank (which generally is a bit low), 83/91 on boards, 3.6gpa. They all asked why my part I was so low. Most of my co-applicants had stats that were MUCH better than mine, but a lot of them you could tell were only applying BECAUSE they had the stats. Directors can see right through that.

I talked to the director at my former dental school before applying and she advised having some research experience, so a friend and I did some research on local anesthetics and managed to get it written up and published. Try to find some research to get involved with, spend some time in an endo office.

[email protected]

You are chastising applicants who are applying "BECAUSE they had the stats," but you turn around and do research because someone told you that it'll help you get in... ??? ironic. Can't directors see right through research that is done as a padding for one's application?

 

[NDPitch]

You are chastising applicants who are applying "BECAUSE they had the stats," but you turn around and do research because someone told you that it'll help you get in... ??? ironic. Can't directors see right through research that is done as a padding for one's application?

Woah. I think you took a genuine response from someone with experience a little out of context. Chfried wasn't chastising those with high stats -- rather, chfried admitted being in the upper-middle of the class and was saying that there are other components to the application besides numbers. Chfried was simply saying that super high stats aren't bad - they're in fact desired, but with the high stats has to come a genuine desire to do the specialty. Chfried was saying that directors can see right through applicants who did amazing academically and are applying to competitive residencies because they think their high stats alone will get them in.

@chfried -- thanks for that reply. A lot of that advice can probably be applied to other residencies as well. Thanks.

 

[J2OS]

I don't think Endo is nearly as tough as ortho or omfs. Someone with 86 on boards would not get interviews in OMFS.

However, endo's income is very good at the moment. I think it's not as tough, because it isn't as interesting as omfs, and it isn't as comfortable as ortho.

Wrong. I know plenty of people who got into OMS and Ortho with scores in the 80's... some on both part I and part II. I also know people with scores in the high 90's who didn't match because they are POS and those interviewing them figured it out pretty quick. Of course as in all specialties there are more people with high scores.

In endo experience is looked upon very highly and will make up for some of your board score. It may not be "as competitive" as OMS but is still competitive. I applied to both OMS and Endo in separate years and have a friend that did the same. We both were accepted both times. I have average scores he has very good scores. I had to spend more money and time applying but same result.

OMS: Applied 50 programs/Interviewed 5 programs (two 6 and three 4yr)/Ranked 5/Matched at #1 6yr program

I ended up leaving the OMS program for personal reasons

Endo: Applied 25 programs/Invited to 15 interviews/Attended 5 interviews/Accepted at 3 programs/Will attend my #1

People often let scores keep them from applying and always state "I don't have the scores" but the little known fact is if you have a well rounded application and you want to specialize you will. The people with the low scores don't advertise "hey look at me I got an 82 or 84 or 86 or 88 etc etc and got in!" They don't do that because in dentistry especially in specialty there is a stigma attached with board score and they don't want to be thought of as less intelligent than their co-residents. Thus, here on SDN you don't know about the people with low scores and thus don't think they exist.

 

[NDPitch]

OMS: Applied 50 programs/Interviewed 5 programs (two 6 and three 4yr)/Ranked 5/Matched at #1 6yr program

I ended up leaving the OMS program for personal reasons

Endo: Applied 25 programs/Invited to 15 interviews/Attended 5 interviews/Accepted at 3 programs/Will attend my #1

People often let scores keep them from applying and always state "I don't have the scores" but the little known fact is if you have a well rounded application and you want to specialize you will.

Nice! That's pretty impressive. Matched into two residencies. Good job.

Also, change that status! I'm guessing you're not a podiatry student, haha. 👍

 

[chfried]

Woah. I think you took a genuine response from someone with experience a little out of context. Chfried wasn't chastising those with high stats -- rather, chfried admitted being in the upper-middle of the class and was saying that there are other components to the application besides numbers. Chfried was simply saying that super high stats aren't bad - they're in fact desired, but with the high stats has to come a genuine desire to do the specialty. Chfried was saying that directors can see right through applicants who did amazing academically and are applying to competitive residencies because they think their high stats alone will get them in.

@chfried -- thanks for that reply. A lot of that advice can probably be applied to other residencies as well. Thanks.

NDPitch, you captured my sentiments exactly. Im not chastising anyone, Im merely trying to share my experience. There are a lot of people who are top achievers in dental school and will apply to the competitive residencies purely because they have a strong competitive nature and the credentials to do so. Nothing wrong with that, but I feel that in order to be a good specialist, one must be more than numbers on the paper. Sadly, many people do not explore and develop a genuine interest in the fields they wish to pursue. The questions that get asked here on SDN are good indicators of that. That is certainly not everyone, and if I knew back in dental school what I know now, I wouldve studied a bit harder so getting into a residency would have been easier.

I found the desire long after the ability to generate the numbers had passed. Perhaps those who I previously described regarding the numbers do the opposite, and find the passion and the desire after they get in; I hope they do. Im really not judging. Im merely trying to illustrate that there are many ways one can make themselves a strong candidate...you dont have to be a powerhouse in every category to get in. I did some research because I felt it would make me a more rounded applicant, but guess what? It was kinda fun. MOST people arent gung-ho about doing research and directors know this; what exactly is there to see through? Participating in it shows that you are capable of developing a thesis, testing it, and presenting your findings, which is precisely what I did. What directors CAN see through are fake people, who are only in it for the money or status or what have you, or who are genuinely not good people. Remember, you can still be a person of questionable character or pursuing a field for the wrong reasons with a decent resume.

So before everyone starts jumping all over everyone here, lets be adults and be constructive. You are entitled to your thoughts, as am I, but lets focus on providing some helpful, constructive, and positive help to this person who wants to learn more about pursuing his passion. I was an average student, with real world practice experience, with a strong desire, and chose to give it 100% to get in given what I had to work with. I applied everywhere I could see myself even barely tolerating for 2 years, then let the chips fall as they would. I am thankful to have gotten in, and even more thankful to be going somewhere I really liked.

Best of luck to the original poster in whatever specialty you choose to pursue. Please PM me separately if you would like to discuss things further.

 

[Silent Cool]

My specialty is better than yours! Er, I mean, more competitive! Waaaa! LOL. These threads crack me up.


peace

 

[goffdent]

My specialty is better than yours! Er, I mean, more competitive! Waaaa! LOL. These threads crack me up.


peace

Many specialists think their "specialty" is the end all be all of dentistry. and everything should revolve around it. Sometimes I find it hard to take some specialists seriously because they bash the other specialties saying one is right or wrong..