ENT application -> importance of 3rd year grades

[Pushabula335]

Hey everyone,
I know everyone is sick of the whole "what are my chances" posts, but I am actually in a state of total indecision right now regarding whether I want to take a year off to do ENT research, so any advice will honestly really help me.

I have been struggling during 3rd year to get honors in my clerkships. I got only HP in both surgery and medicine, even though for medicine I aced the shelf (apparently only 1 or 2 people honor each block). I have good comments for these clerkships, it's just getting that H has been really hard.
As far as other stats:
Medical School: Middle tier, one of the best state schools though
Years 1 and 2: half and half H and P, no HP for the first two years
Step 1: 251
Publications: 1 publication before medical school (3rd author), 1 abstract which I also presented at a regional meeting as first author in Plastic surgery (craniofacial), manuscript in the works (not sure it will be accepted to a journal by the time I apply though), several other projects in Plastics that I am currently also on, maybe they will have abstracts out by the time I apply (but not first author).

I realize that all my research is in plastics and I should probably try to get something ENT. Realistically I don't see myself getting anything substantial before the application season, I could try for an abstract. Basically, I am very upset that my grades for 3rd year are not up to snuff, and I am wondering how this will hinder my chances...Any advice?!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Apply for a backup. What's done is done.

Sent via my mobile device.

 

[Flamen04]

What do you mean apply for a backup? Backup specialty?

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Yes. The 251 will potentially outshine those grades, but any scrutiny of this application will reveal an average applicant.

Sent via my mobile device.

 

[Flamen04]

Hmmm... Interesting. What if he had a 251 and mostly honors for his third year grades? Would his lack of substantial research still make him average?

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Yes.

This may come as a shocker to many of you.

The average otolaryngology applicant has honors or mostly honors for his or her grades. The average otolaryngology applicant has board scores north of 240. The average otolaryngology applicant has research experience. The average otolaryngology applicant has good letters of recommendation. The average otolaryngology applicant has done away rotations.

Now, what makes you *not* average?

Sent via my mobile device.

 

[Flamen04]

Sigh. I guess you are right. Crazy that ENT is more competitive than Derm, Plastics or Urology. Guess us normal folk gonna have to do a lot of praying in church to match

 

[Acetabulous]

What exactly makes someone "not average"? I, for one, had to bust my tail in order to get the board score, grades, and research that I did. I really didn't have time for much else. As I near the end of third year, I find myself looking back on my body of work and being proud of it, only to see comments about how average it truly is. What do admissions committees realistically expect from their applicants? I'm not looking for the magic key to a residency position, I am simply wondering how 400-500 of the best medical students in the country are separated from one another.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Don't misinterpret what I've said, and don't be dismayed either.

The "average" otolaryngology applicant is scores better than the majority of medical students applying for residency position. None of you has anything to be ashamed of when it comes to your performance. The reality is that much of it is "average" for students applying to otolaryngology residency. As you move 2 or 3 standard deviations from the mean, very little distinguishes one from the other. If you were to ask, I would say the above average otolaryngology applicant has USMLE scores in the 250-260 range (both Step I and Step II). The above average applicant has some sort of missionary or volunteer doctoring abroad. The above average applicant has a program director or another faculty member "make a call" on his or her behalf. (I can't tell you how many times a colleague has emailed me, called me or bumped into me at a meeting to tell me about a student.) The above average applicant has first author peer reviewed paper(s). The above average applicant has a letter of recommendation that states something like "we hope to have him here" or "I will push very strongly to rank her highly."

It's hard to achieve those things. That's why those who do are "above average."

Remember this: the average applicant ends up as an otolaryngology resident. Definitely remember this: 260s and H don't guarantee you a residency spot either.

 

[Pushabula335]

Thank you for the advice neutropeniaboy, I understand that I am just average. What if I don't want to back up and only want to do ENT...should I definitely take a year off then?

 

[Wordead]

Thank you for the advice neutropeniaboy, I understand that I am just average. What if I don't want to back up and only want to do ENT...should I definitely take a year off then?

A productive year of research goes a long way, but it really has to be ENT and really has to be with well known academic ENTs - from what I've seen, you should roll out of your year with 2-3 really strong letters, several 1st and 2nd author pubs, and a couple mentors that will call for you.

Whats your current relationship with your home program? I think that's a pretty important point that hasnt been mentioned.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

I can't say for certain how far that extra year will carry you. You have the stuff that everyone else has, so will the year of research actually give you that extra edge? I think this depends on the lab you enter. If it is a highly productive lab (you should be able to find out through Google or Ovid), you might actually get your name on something, but whether it will be first on the paper, that's a hard thing to assess. Lots of factors. A more practical question to answer is whether that year in the lab will increase your chances at that specific program. You may not get paper(s) out, but the PI and the PD may see you as a hard-working, reliable student who would make a good resident. That's probably the realistic benefit of taking the year off.

Can't tell you to definitely take the year off, because your profile is good. If you had a USMLE in the 220-230 range, I would tell you to definitely consider taking the year off.

 

[ENTologist]

It's probably too late for this years application season, but I think there are ways to sway the odds in your favor besides good grades (which everyone has). Perhaps some of the attendings on here can chime in.

1. Have something, somewhere that makes you unique besides being smart. I started, ran, and sold a business and this was literally the only thing anyone wanted to talk to me about during interviews. It showed that I could not only get great grades, but was a forward thinker, motivated, successfull at multiple things and could somehow find balance during everything.

2. Make sure you have a good relationship with your home program. I spent a lot of time with my home department, stopping by to spend an afternoon in clinic or OR if I was not busy in class or another rotation. Showing up for Grand Rounds etc. I tried not to be annoying, but I think it showed sincere interest by be present a reasonable amount. By match time, several attendings stated they would love for me to stay and be a resident there, but would fully support me going elsewhere. It felt good to have them in my corner, and the LOR were great because they actually knew who I was.

3. After the first round of interview offers, I directly emailed the program directors of 3-5 programs I was sincerely interested in but had not heard from. My email was short, polite, and pointed out 1-2 specific things I knew about their program that I thought would make me a good fit there. My reasoning was that if they had a stack of 300 equally qualified applicants on their desk, and someone took the time to personally express a sincere interest in their program it would increase my odds. Surprisingly, all programs responded, a few placed me on a waiting list as all offers had filled at that time. The others either call or emailed and offered me an interview.

Basically, I think there's a bit of gamesmanship that is lost by many applicants who think it's purely a game of numbers and waiting. Relationships are vital in any profession, and if you can humanize yourself in some way I think it has the potential to give you an edge over other equally qualified applicants. This is assuming you are not annoying, and know how to present yourself as a professional.

 

[Irishlass]

Don't misinterpret what I've said, and don't be dismayed either.

The "average" otolaryngology applicant is scores better than the majority of medical students applying for residency position. None of you has anything to be ashamed of when it comes to your performance. The reality is that much of it is "average" for students applying to otolaryngology residency. As you move 2 or 3 standard deviations from the mean, very little distinguishes one from the other. If you were to ask, I would say the above average otolaryngology applicant has USMLE scores in the 250-260 range (both Step I and Step II). The above average applicant has some sort of missionary or volunteer doctoring abroad. The above average applicant has a program director or another faculty member "make a call" on his or her behalf. (I can't tell you how many times a colleague has emailed me, called me or bumped into me at a meeting to tell me about a student.) The above average applicant has first author peer reviewed paper(s). The above average applicant has a letter of recommendation that states something like "we hope to have him here" or "I will push very strongly to rank her highly."

It's hard to achieve those things. That's why those who do are "above average."

Remember this: the average applicant ends up as an otolaryngology resident. Definitely remember this: 260s and H don't guarantee you a residency spot either.

My program director said that he would "make a call" when is the best time to have him make that call, before the interview invites go out or after they begin?

 

[neutropeniaboy]

My program director said that he would "make a call" when is the best time to have him make that call, before the interview invites go out or after they begin?

I've done it both ways. Others have called me before and after: e.g., "hey, how did my boy do?!"

Calling beforehand may set the tone for the interview. Calling after may help rescue a bad interview.