1. Dismiss Notice
  2. Download free Tapatalk for iPhone or Tapatalk for Android for your phone and follow the SDN forums with push notifications.
    Dismiss Notice

ENT Residencies

Discussion in 'Clinical Rotations' started by Mallu-05, Jan 22, 2002.

  1. Mallu-05

    Mallu-05 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2002
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello everyone,
    I am really interested in ENT and I was wondering if any of the MS4/PGY1 can shed some light on what will help me to attain residency at an academic hospital with good reputation for the program.
    Qs:
    What are some of the highly ranked ENT programs in the country?
    what are some of the important things that I must have or achieve to attain my goal?
    class ranking?
    Step 1/2 score?
    recommendations?
    Extracurricular activities?
    the reputation of my current med school, etc

    Thanks
    MS1
     
  2. Note: SDN Members do not see this ad.

  3. Robb1818

    Robb1818 Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2000
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Tomyfool, I'm also interested in ENT. Check out these sites, they may help you answer your questions.

    <a href="http://www.sfmatch.org/" target="_blank">http://www.sfmatch.org/</a>
    <a href="http://www.entnet.org/" target="_blank">http://www.entnet.org/</a>
    <a href="http://pub75.ezboard.com/botolaryngologyresidencyapplicants" target="_blank">http://pub75.ezboard.com/botolaryngologyresidencyapplicants</a>
    <a href="http://www.otohns.net/" target="_blank">http://www.otohns.net/</a>

    Also, i had a couple questions myself. I'm at a DO school. Does anyone know about the match rules for this? For example...I know I'm required to drop out of the allopathic match if i match to an osteopathic program, assuming i choose to rank one. However, SFMatch is an early match for ENT, for osteopathic programs it's not. With that being said, would it be possible to rank both allopathic and osteopathic programs and if matched to an allopathic program drop out of the osteopathic match?

    Also since this is a PGY-2 match, do you have to do an entirly seperate process to match for surgery PGY-1?

    Thanks
     
  4. TheThroat

    TheThroat SDN Moderator
    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2001
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Hello everyone,
    I am really interested in ENT and I was wondering if any of the MS4/PGY1 can shed some light on what will help me to attain residency at an academic hospital with good reputation for the program.
    Qs:
    What are some of the highly ranked ENT programs in the country?
    what are some of the important things that I must have or achieve to attain my goal?
    class ranking?
    Step 1/2 score?
    recommendations?
    Extracurricular activities?
    the reputation of my current med school, etc

    I am an Oto PGY-1 at Iowa, now doing my general surgery internship. In my opinion, there are a number of programs in the country that are solid clinical programs yet are not considered in the "highly ranked" category. The "highly ranked" programs like the ones found in US News usually are ranked highly because of their extrensive research departments. A few of them: Hopkins, U Iowa, U Michigan, Wash U, U Wash, Mayo.

    Things to do to go to a top program:
    1. Do well academically, such as be in the top quarter or at least top half of your class. The specialty is pretty competitive, and average students would really have to have outstanding research to be considered for a spot of one of these programs.
    2. Do research. This is very important. The applicantion for Oto residency leaves small spaces for honors, extracurricular activities, work experiences, and then leaves about 3/4 of a page for research experience. Basic science research is considered more impressive than clinical. I doubt that residents without research, no matter what their grades and board scores, would even interview at the top programs without at least some research experience.
    3. Don't let the Step 1 make you look bad. I don't know how much different programs emphasize its importance, but a average or low score can't help.
    4. Recs: Get a rec from an Oto MD in the department of you school. If you think that your dept. is weak, then do a rotation at another school and get a rec there. I don't think that this is as important as research or your grades.
    5. School rep: I don't know. It might help, but I think that the other factors weigh more.
    6. Extracurriculars: unimportant regarding getting in, but you should be involved with something just to stay sane (in my opinion).

    Hope this helps.
     
  5. cacahuetes

    cacahuetes Junior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2002
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am currently a medical student and interested in Facial Plastic Surgery and have a few Questions for TheThroat. This is my first time posting to the forum so please try and bear with me.

    1. What do you think about the future of ENT? I heard that the field of Facial Plastic Surgery might be getting saturated, what are your opinions? Also what effect do you think turf wars with plastics and oral-maxilofacial will have on ENT facial plastic specialists.

    2. I am a first year and I know I have to do research this summer, especially since I have no research background. You mentioned that basic science research is preferred over clincal, however you did not give an explanation, so please elaborate? Also, if you had to choose between doing basic science research in genetics versus clinical research in ENT which would you pick? How important is it to publish?

    3. What are the salary ranges for ENT docs in private practice and does it differ between the different fellowships. For example, what is the average for a facial plastic surgeon?

    Thanks for your help
     
  6. droliver

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    72
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    "facial plastic surgeon" is a marketing attempt by ENT's to confuse patients into thinking they're getting a plastic surgeon. If you're interested in plastic surgery go for the gold standard and do an integrated program or traditional plastic surgery fellowship.
     
  7. TheThroat

    TheThroat SDN Moderator
    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2001
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    I'll try to address a few things:

    Cachuetes questions:
    1. I have no idea what the future of Facial Plastic Surgery is. I know of that Facial Plastic Surgeons are highly sought after for academic positions in Otolaryngology Programs, but this may be secondary to the reluctance of Facial Plastic Surgeons to enter academics. Thus, a large demand and little supply situation has developed, in my opinion.
    2. Basic science was recommended to me by an otolaryngologist at my medical school, and a number of interviewers asked me plenty of questions regarding the research I did. I did not publish a paper. The reason I think that basic science research is more important is that it shows a dedication towards research that may not be apparent with just clinical work. My thought: do what you can. If you have the opportunity to do clinical stuff, do it. If you find a basic science project, do it. I think that oto clinical work would be more interesting to interviewers than basic science work in another area.
    3. I don't have a clue as to the mean salary of a Facial Plastic Surgeon.

    OK, to address the ignorance behind droliver's statement. Facial Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery is a board-certified subspecialty, much like Neuro-otology, Head and Neck Surgery, and Pediatric Otolaryngology. Here is the web-site:
    <a href="http://www.facial-plastic-surgery.org/" target="_blank">http://www.facial-plastic-surgery.org/</a>

    Facial Plastic surgeons undergo fellowship training for 1-2 years after completing oto residency and are highly qualified to perform plastic and reconstructive surgery on the face and neck. This is not to say that they are better or worse than plastic surgeons at performing these surgeries. They simply perform some procedures that plastic surgeons also can do.
     
  8. droliver

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    72
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    Ok, to address Thethroat's reply. Facial plastic surgery is not a recognized board by the American Board of Medical Specialties PERIOD. It was unilaterally setup essentially to give marketing power for ENT's who wished to do cosmetic surgery without formal accredited Plastic Surgery training. It capitalizes on the fact that the public at large does not understand the difference between the titles. Dermatologists & Oral Surgeons also practice this type of marketing by calling themselves cosmetic surgeons. Simply look in your yellow pages at the ads in the plastic surgery section & you will see the ones that try to cloud the issue of what a "board-certified" plastic surgeon is. If you don't see board-eligible or board cerified by the Amer. Board of Plastic Surgery, you aren't getting a plastic surgeon. BTW I do not dispute the right of ENT's to do head & neck cosmetic surgery, I just do not think the underhanded marketing to confuse patients by the multiple specialties attempting to do cosmetic surgery is admirable.
     
  9. nyskindr

    nyskindr Senior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2001
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    Its worth pointing out that cosmetic procedures are not owned by any one particular specialty.The original research and development of liposuction,hair transplantation and laser resurfacing was largely done by dermatologists. If ENT surgeons are properly trained to perform facial cosmetic surgery,they are not misleading anyone by advertising their skills as such,just as opthalmologists can properly perform ocular plastic surgry when trained to do so.
     
  10. droliver

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    72
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    SKIN DOC,

    Were not debating qualifications, but rather making an observation/comment on the grab by a # of specialties for one of the last free-market areas left in medicine as the 3rd party payer well dried up in the last 15 years. A whole alphabet soup of non-accredited boards has sprung up including facial plastics, hair transplant, liposuction, occulo-plastics, laser surgery, cosmetic surgery, etc... to allow people to claim they're "board-certified". All of these are essentially meaningless BS & have been refused to be recognized by the Amer. Board of Medical Specialties (the largest, oldest, & most-respected accrediting organization). It all comes down to marketing for consumer $$$$ in the aesthetics market. This is all well & good (they can call themselves any # of things), but the attempt by some ENT's to call themselves something they're not (plastic surgeons or some derivative of it) for this end is offensive to me, especially as anyone finishing an ENT residency is eligible to do a real & accredited plastic surgery program
     
  11. I can't think of any ENT surgeon who would want to finish their residency and then complete a "real" plastics fellowship, RIO. The ones who do want to do facial plastics do a 1-2 year fellowship with one of the well-known ENT facial plastic surgeons- eg Larabee, Sherris, et al. I just don't see how spending additional time learning reconstruction on other parts of the body helps you in facial plastics- boob jobs, tummy tucks and other cosmetic procedures certainly don't help. Having seen several facial plastics procedures by both plastic surgeons and ENT surgeons, I have to say the latter are at least as good (if not better), especially with facial sculpting procedures (eg rhinplasty or otoplasty) or major reconstructions s/p cancer.
     
  12. seems like everyone is missing rio's point...sure, they are qualified. but, do they need to confurse and mislead patients by creating "boards" to claim certification from and advertising value? why can't they just say i am board certified ENT, and therby qualified to do cosmetic work?
     
  13. Voxel

    Moderator Emeritus 7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2001
    Messages:
    658
    Likes Received:
    2
    If ENT do a 2 year fellowship in facial plastic surgery (basically just the face), then wouldn't the ENT spend more time and have done more plastic facial surgeries than the guy who finished a 5 year general surgery + 2 year plastics fellowship? This is interesting and makes me think about who I should recommend to my friends to do this kind of work. I guess this only matters for newly minted surgeons, not ones who have been practicing full time. And I am sure there are some plastic surgeons who only to facial plastics.
     
  14. Robb1818

    Robb1818 Member
    10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2000
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    So what do you think about the five year osteopathic residencies in ENT/Facial Plastics?
     
  15. alicelinden

    alicelinden Junior Member
    7+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2001
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to the American Board of Medical Specialties,

    <a href="http://www.abms.org/member.asp#Regular" target="_blank">http://www.abms.org/member.asp#Regular</a>

    only plastic surgery is board certified... there is no "facial plastic surgery" board. When doctors say "Board Certified", the "Board" implies the ABMS, I believe.
     
  16. TheThroat

    TheThroat SDN Moderator
    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2001
    Messages:
    514
    Likes Received:
    1
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    If you go to the American Board of Medical specialties you will not see many SUBspecialties such as cardiology, spinal surgery, etc. A number of subspecialties are "board certified" through a specialty Board of the ABMS. For example, otolaryngologists who wish to practice Facial Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery must be certified for the subspecialty by the American Board of Otolaryngologists. If you go to their website and go to FAQ's, and scroll to the bottom of the page, you can read this:

    "Does the ABOto offer subspecialty certificates?

    The ABOto is authorized to issue subspecialty certificates in Pediatric Otolaryngology, Otology/Neurotology and Plastic Surgery within the Head and Neck. Exams are currently being developed in all areas. No certificates have been issued, and specific dates for administration of these exams are not known at this time."

    Thus, Otolaryngologists can be "Board-certified" (meaning by the ABMS) in Facial Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery.
     
  17. droliver

    Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Messages:
    1,556
    Likes Received:
    72
    Status:
    Attending Physician
    throat,

    you miss the distinction again. You can be BOARD-CERTIFIED in ENT but not in facial-plastic surgery. It is similar to getting a CAQ (certificate of added qualifications) in hand surgery if you do a hand fellowship, which still does not = board-certification by the ABMS.
     

Share This Page