Epidemiology/Public health research

[applesauce14]

Has anyone done any type of epidemiology or public health research during medical school? If so, can you broadly describe what you did and what your project was about? I am considering the pros/cons of doing an MD/PhD in epidemiology, and would like to consider the different paths I could explore with this career path. Thanks!

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[seeinghowitgoes]

Out of curiosity, why are you considering it? What pros/cons do you see?

 

[housestaffhustle]

Committing to an MD/PhD is a completely different decision to pursing a research project in epidemiology/public health. For the MD/PhD, I'd mostly consider it from a time and finance perspective. You're likely committing to adding an additional 4 years onto your training though you will have your time in med school paid for by the government. Beyond that, pursing a PhD is more about what your want your career to look like. If you see yourself having a career focus primarily on research running a lab and applying for grants, then do then do the MD/PhD.

If you just have an interest in research I would probably just pursue research opportunities while in medical school. You can definitely be very productive and publish with just an MD. If you're interested in getting more training in epidemiology and statistics, there are medical schools with combined MD and MPH programs what will be shorter than an MD/PhD. To be honest, though, most attendings will rely on statisticians to do their stats even if they've personally had prior training. It's just more time efficient. While understanding the statistics is definitely helpful/necessary, you'll just have to balance that with the extra time it will take for you to obtain that degree. Every year in training is another year of potential debt and another year you're not earning an attending salary.

 

[applesauce14]

Out of curiosity, why are you considering it? What pros/cons do you see?

I am considering it because I find it interesting, and I am already accepted to MSTPs but no longer passionate about bench research. Exploring other options for the PhD rather than just dropping out of the program

 

[applesauce14]

Committing to an MD/PhD is a completely different decision to pursing a research project in epidemiology/public health. For the MD/PhD, I'd mostly consider it from a time and finance perspective. You're likely committing to adding an additional 4 years onto your training though you will have your time in med school paid for by the government. Beyond that, pursing a PhD is more about what your want your career to look like. If you see yourself having a career focus primarily on research running a lab and applying for grants, then do then do the MD/PhD.

If you just have an interest in research I would probably just pursue research opportunities while in medical school. You can definitely be very productive and publish with just an MD. If you're interested in getting more training in epidemiology and statistics, there are medical schools with combined MD and MPH programs what will be shorter than an MD/PhD. To be honest, though, most attendings will rely on statisticians to do their stats even if they've personally had prior training. It's just more time efficient. While understanding the statistics is definitely helpful/necessary, you'll just have to balance that with the extra time it will take for you to obtain that degree. Every year in training is another year of potential debt and another year you're not earning an attending salary.

Do you have any examples of types of projects MD/PhDs do with PhD in epi?

 

[housestaffhustle]

Ah that makes more sense. If you're already in an MSTP program then that's a great opportunity and I see why you're trying to pivot.

Hmmm I don't have a specific project in mind from a PhD but most medical students and residents end up doing clinical research. Outcomes research looking at large datasets and mortality following a certain treatment regimen or screening protocol. You could also look at demographics data related to a particular disease state, elucidating patterns of care or particular subsets of the population that may have worse outcomes.

If you're already accepted to an MSTP program the program director or your prior/current research mentor may have ideas? If they've already accepted you I'm sure they're happy to keep you in the program regardless of where your research interests lie.

 

[aldol16]

I think most MD/PhDs end up doing basic science research. That's because the protected research time in the PhD portion is required for basic science research given the time and effort it takes to publish. Getting a PhD in epidemiology is possible, but you should think about the value it would add. You can learn statistics skills and even deep learning nowadays either on your own or through a few courses and get access to the data you need to do epidemiological studies without ever getting a PhD in it. You can be very productive in this type of research without getting a PhD.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Public health and epidemiology are not really PhD level pursuits.

I have seen MD/PhDs do epidemiology studies or have that as academic pursuits, but it gets into the weeds of mechanics. It’s never how like “how is being X a risk factor for health” it’s more like “how does DNA methylation or histone modification induce a risk for X in this population” or “knowing this population is at risk, which gene/protein pathways are most under and over represented in this population”. It’s more bioinformatics that is geared towards an epidemiological question.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

Public health and epidemiology are not really PhD level pursuits.

STRONG disagree. There is a ton to be done in public health and epidemiology research at the PhD level - it’s just not always compatible with the traditional MD path. There is so so much public health work that is done beyond the level of an MPH.

I did a combined MD/MPH program so my perspective is skewed, but a lot of us did public health related research (both required for the program and because of personal interest). My personal research related to HIV and substance use, and it involved working with grad students doing public health PhDs (though not specifically in epidemiology). My classmates did all kinds of cool public health work in a ton of different arenas.

I know at least one person at my institution did an MD/PhD in epidemiology, and I think ended up going into neuro? But I don’t know the specifics of their project.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

STRONG disagree. There is a ton to be done in public health and epidemiology research at the PhD level - it’s just not always compatible with the traditional MD path. There is so so much public health work that is done beyond the level of an MPH.

I did a combined MD/MPH program so my perspective is skewed, but a lot of us did public health related research (both required for the program and because of personal interest). My personal research related to HIV and substance use, and it involved working with grad students doing public health PhDs (though not specifically in epidemiology). My classmates did all kinds of cool public health work in a ton of different arenas.

I know at least one person at my institution did an MD/PhD in epidemiology, and I think ended up going into neuro? But I don’t know the specifics of their project.

When I say public health, I’m talking public health in a policy manner.

Any science could be public health if it involves the public and health. HIV is very basic science. PhD doing HIV work are studying mechanisms of reverse transcriptase and proteins, not whether or not supervised needle injection sites work.

Even CDC epidemiologists are considered entry level positions. All you need is a bacholers degree to apply to be a CDC epidemiologist.

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

When I say public health, I’m talking public health in a policy manner.

Any science could be public health if it involves the public and health. HIV is very basic science. PhD doing HIV work are studying mechanisms of reverse transcriptase and proteins, not whether or not supervised needle injection sites work.

Even CDC epidemiologists are considered entry level positions. All you need is a bacholers degree to apply to be a CDC epidemiologist.

That just means you’re defining public health very narrowly. There are tons of phd level folks who do much more complex work than an entry level epidemiologist

 

[wholeheartedly]

When I say public health, I’m talking public health in a policy manner.

Any science could be public health if it involves the public and health. HIV is very basic science. PhD doing HIV work are studying mechanisms of reverse transcriptase and proteins, not whether or not supervised needle injection sites work.

Even CDC epidemiologists are considered entry level positions. All you need is a bacholers degree to apply to be a CDC epidemiologist.

CDC rarely actually takes bachelors or MPH level epidemiologists without extensive experience already. Very competitive. The only epis i know who got CDC jobs were PhDs usually with an EIS or similar fellowship. You also need to separate out applied epidemiology vs more research type epidemiology. CDC has a mix of both and the backgrounds are different. There is absolutely Epi work that requires a PhD level training.

*** clarification- the minimum bachelors is for the USA gov. job series not the specific Epidemiologist position. Almost all CDC epi positions require at least a masters plus several years specialized experience or a PhD and at least one year specialized experience. Mostly obtained through CDC ORISE and similar fellowships or contractor positions.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

CDC rarely actually takes bachelors or MPH level epidemiologists without extensive experience already. Very competitive. The only epis i know who got CDC jobs were PhDs usually with an EIS or similar fellowship. You also need to separate out applied epidemiology vs more research type epidemiology. CDC has a mix of both and the backgrounds are different. There is absolutely Epi work that requires a PhD level training.

*** clarification- the minimum bachelors is for the USA gov. job series not the specific Epidemiologist position. Almost all CDC epi positions require at least a masters plus several years specialized experience or a PhD and at least one year specialized experience. Mostly obtained through CDC ORISE and similar fellowships or contractor positions.

Simply what I read online. Could be wrong.

Job Detail

Tools for new hires to prepare for orientation & onboarding.

jobs.cdc.gov

But it’s easy to see that a vast majority of CDC leadership have MPHs and not PhD. There are some PhD stats and wet lab people though.

CDC Leadership

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Leadership

www.cdc.gov

 

[wholeheartedly]

Simply what I read online. Could be wrong.

Job Detail

Tools for new hires to prepare for orientation & onboarding.

jobs.cdc.gov

But it’s easy to see that a vast majority of CDC leadership have MPHs and not PhD. There are some PhD stats and wet lab people though.

CDC Leadership

Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Leadership

www.cdc.gov

Again that’s for the job series not the position. For the specific position you go by the GS level. Epidemiologist positions are usually GS 11 or higher

I’m an epidemiologist and quite familiar with who hires who. Pay is also a huge giveaway.

Federal General Schedule (GS) Education Requirements

www.generalschedule.org

CDC Admin positions are a bit of a different beast.

 

[wholeheartedly]

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