Ethical/Moral Obligation to do no harm

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W222

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I have two cases recently that have totally tested my ethical obligation to my patients. Both cases where a dead patient was taken to the OR and surgeons operated knowing full well that there was no hope, absolutely none. Now, as a resident, I can only voice my concerns to my attending and hope they are brought up in a discussion with the surgeons, but after having talked to a few attendings they have said it really wasn't our decision and that we provide a "service". F-that. This is absurd and a spineless way to practice. After careful reflection, I now know how this will affect my practice. I am just wondering what everyone else here thinks? Do we have an obligation to both our patients, their families, and the healthcare system overall to stop these types of cases?

Mind you, I think in some instances it borders on outright fraud when a surgeon brings cases like this to the OR.
 
I do futile procedures on kids all the time. Expensive major operations (spine fusions, etc) on kids with static encephalopathy, etc. All done to extend life, even if only for a few days. It's a huge waste of time and money. Good luck telling mom and dad their baby can't have their surgery.
What operations are you doing on "dead" people?
I've done some very nearly dead trauma and ruptured AAAs before. Some came back. There was theoretical hope for recovery though.
I've also done some septic hail mary explorations, we all know how they're going to go. Perhaps 1:1000 will have a reversible process? Who knows. They will be dead without an operation though, and probably dead after as well. I'm very clear with the parents that the child is gravely ill and may die in the OR/NICU in spite of our best efforts.
 
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What operations are you doing on "dead" people?

Lets just say that both these people met the definition of brain death; pupils fixed and dilated, no gag, no breathing over vent, ect. I looked at both as completely futile operations done for two reasons, the possibility to bill and to play.


I also recently had a conversation with a surgeon who wanted to do a hip repair on a person who had just been made CMO/hospice.
 
Lets just say that both these people met the definition of brain death; pupils fixed and dilated, no gag, no breathing over vent, ect. I looked at both as completely futile operations done for two reasons, the possibility to bill and to play.


I also recently had a conversation with a surgeon who wanted to do a hip repair on a person who had just been made CMO/hospice.

What were the operations?
 
The surgeons can't just bring anyone back to the OR to operate, can they? I mean, they examine the patient and offer treatment avenues and risk/benefit counseling to the patient, next of kin, or agent holding the patient's medical power of attorney. Then, said person has to give their informed consent to the surgeon before proceeding. So, it is the patient (or their advocate) that is ultimately responsible for the patient going to surgery. The surgeon could say surgery isn't an option to begin with, but like IlDestriero said, they would be ensuring death (or at least no improvement in the patient's condition).
 
W222 said:
Mind you, I think in some instances it borders on outright fraud when a surgeon brings cases like this to the OR.

Well, there's "futility" and then there's "fraud" ...

Futility is an ICU patient who's generously marked as an ASA 5E. Objecting to those cases seldom seems to go well or accomplish much especially when the patient or family want everything done. Just the reality of the absurd system we work in.

Fraud is adding on a TKA for a 90-ish demented non-english-speaking bedridden hemiplegic stroke patient who was numb and immobile on the operative side.
 
What were the operations?

Both craniotomies, both patients had terminal illnesses besides their current issues at the time of surgery, and both were clinically brain dead. That isn't mere futility in my book, its a gross misrepresentation by the surgeon of the severity of the situation.
 
Both craniotomies, both patients had terminal illnesses besides their current issues at the time of surgery, and both were clinically brain dead. That isn't mere futility in my book, its a gross misrepresentation by the surgeon of the severity of the situation.

Are you talking about decompressive hemicraniectomies? Because there are some patients who benefit from it, particularly malignant strokes. Without knowing the details, you seem to describe a patient who has herniated, which isn't the same thing as brain dead. I've seen remarkable successes from decompressions.
 
I also recently had a conversation with a surgeon who wanted to do a hip repair on a person who had just been made CMO/hospice.

The validity of doing this depends on what the person was made hospice for. Going on hospice means you forgo just the curative-oriented treatments for your terminal diagnosis only. As a random and totally made-up example, it is valid for a patient with pancreatic cancer to take some antihistamines for seasonal allergies. Hospice does not mean that the patient is actively dying. IMO, it should not mean that the patient is actively dying.
 
Lets just say that both these people met the definition of brain death; pupils fixed and dilated, no gag, no breathing over vent, ect. I looked at both as completely futile operations done for two reasons, the possibility to bill and to play.

The bolded above is NOT brain death.

Brain death is real death...but if these people were in a clinical state as you've described and ALSO failed an apnea test, and then taken to the OR for surgeries other than for organ procurement, that is fraud and criminal and worthy of our attention.

But if you're just saying they were "pretty close" to brain death and had some surgeries of dubious benefit near the end of life, well, that's a different story.
 
So is your only objection that its fraud or do you have some other objections? I mean, are you objecting to the care of the pt?
 
Are you talking about decompressive hemicraniectomies? Because there are some patients who benefit from it, particularly malignant strokes. Without knowing the details, you seem to describe a patient who has herniated, which isn't the same thing as brain dead. I've seen remarkable successes from decompressions.

While I agree that decompression helps in global edema with signs of impending herniation, but to say it has good a good outcome after prolonged true brainstem herniation is simply not true in the vast majority of cases. These people both had signs of prolonged true brainstem herniation on exam and as evidence by the fact they had completely lost autonomic function. Brain death is based on both clinical exam and either an apnea test or perfusion scan, in these cases they were not available due to the emergent nature. I realize that we all must give the best care to our patients but sometimes the best care is to let the person pass away from their disease, not to remove large portions of their skull in order to simply get them to the ICU to withdraw care.
 
The validity of doing this depends on what the person was made hospice for. Going on hospice means you forgo just the curative-oriented treatments for your terminal diagnosis only. As a random and totally made-up example, it is valid for a patient with pancreatic cancer to take some antihistamines for seasonal allergies. Hospice does not mean that the patient is actively dying. IMO, it should not mean that the patient is actively dying.

In order to qualify for hospice you must have a terminal condition with less than six months life expectancy and inpatient hospice, last I checked, was less than two weeks. Also, it is the understanding that when you enter hospice you are now forgoing aggressive care and are DNR/DNI, and at most institutions in order to head to the OR you suspend a DNR/DNI order. So, hospice does mean that a patient is dying, be it six hours or six months, and has elected to stop aggressive treatments and procedures.
 
In order to qualify for hospice you must have a terminal condition with less than six months life expectancy and inpatient hospice, last I checked, was less than two weeks. Also, it is the understanding that when you enter hospice you are now forgoing aggressive care and are DNR/DNI, and at most institutions in order to head to the OR you suspend a DNR/DNI order. So, hospice does mean that a patient is dying, be it six hours or six months, and has elected to stop aggressive treatments and procedures.

I mean, we're all dying, right? Just at different speeds. And 6 months is a long time to live with a broken hip. Plus, it's not like people haven't "graduated" from hospice before. As an earlier poster noted, it's more about what's palliative vs curative, not what's "aggressive."

That said, I can't disagree with you that A) surgeons seem to be eternally optimistic, and B) we do a terrible job with end-of-life care in this country.
 
I mean, we're all dying, right? Just at different speeds. And 6 months is a long time to live with a broken hip. Plus, it's not like people haven't "graduated" from hospice before. As an earlier poster noted, it's more about what's palliative vs curative, not what's "aggressive."

That said, I can't disagree with you that A) surgeons seem to be eternally optimistic, and B) we do a terrible job with end-of-life care in this country.

Agree 100% here... although I think that we are getting better, slowly but surely. I think it just takes a special type of physician to have the necessary talk with family, without making it feel like they are "giving up".
 
You never answered my question W222 but here is what I was getting at if we had started the conversation.


A man has lung cancer that has spread to the brain. The cancer in the brain has been growing despite full dose radiation. His lungs have failed and he has been on a respirator for 10 days with progressive worsening of lung function.

Despite multiple discussions between the doctors and the Intensive Care Unit's team with the family, they do not accept the doctor's advice to let the patient die in peace. There is no possibility that the patient's cancer in the brain or his failing lungs will improve. The medical team is continuing a treatment that will not work except to keep his heart beating for a few more days and some oxygen will be provided to the body until his lungs fail completely. The doctors and I.C.U. team are providing futile treatments.


By all medical standards, they are doing something that will not work. They are allowed by law and by accepted medical standards to stop the treatments and provide comfort care to the patient. Why is it that the doctors do not stop the treatments which they know will not work, will not help the patient or the family and are stressful, even traumatic for the staff in the I.C.U.?

One big reason is that the current social environment is one of giving a lot of importance to autonomy of the patient/family. Autonomy to refuse treatments is accepted and is an improvement over the forced treatments that were common just a few decades ago.

Yielding to autonomy that leads to demands for unreasonable/futile/unworkable treatments is not the same. The assessment that the treatment will not work, in cases similar to that described above, is based on solid evidence. It is an independent assessment made by multiple professionals after due deliberation. Yet the treatment is continued only because the family asks for it to be continued.

It is worthwhile to look into and try to understand why such demands are made by families (in most cases when the patients are that seriously ill, they are not in a position to make informed decisions).

One of the statements made by the family is that the patient wanted "everything" to be done to keep them alive. This, on the face of it, goes along with the general principle of an advance directive and patient autonomy and should be respected – as far as it goes. Problems arise when there is uncritical acceptance by the medical professionals of the statement as given by the family. It is not possible to accurately interpret the phrase "try everything". No person, even medically trained persons, can gauge the complexity of the actions that are required when body functions are severely impaired. These are step by step decisions and actions and have to be made by specialized professionals. The nuances, the changing circumstances and the body's response are complex and dynamic. They often reach a point when the damage to the body is irreversible. Thus, "everything" has limits, limits that can only be determined by highly trained and experienced professionals. The patient's advance directives should be respected but physiological reality must be understood and yielded to.

In the same vein, family members say that the patient was a "fighter" and did not want to give up. This again is a generalization and often an interpretation by the family. Accepting reality is not a defeat but accepting the inevitable. A common statement is a mix of thoughts. It manifests in different ways and is a combination of hope and denial of reality. Some will say you doctors are wrong, you don't know everything and we are hoping for improvement. Yes, doctors do not know everything and doctors have been wrong. "Certainty" has many levels. One way to look at it is to think of what we say when we part from our friends, family or co-workers. We say to our partner, as we go to work "See you in the evening" or to our co-workers as we go home "See you in the morning". Sometimes that does not happen. But we maintain a certainty in our statements. We don't say "See you in the morning unless I have an accident on the way home". Yes, mistakes have been made and a rare patient may do better than predicted by the health care team. In the circumstances described in the case above (it is a real patient where I was involved in his case) there was "absolute" certainty. This was based on medical and biological facts and the assessment by multiple professionals who have seen many similar cases. Thus here there is certainty. A certainty that has to be accepted to provide the maximum comfort to the patient.

The related statement about hope is more difficult to deal with. Hope comes from multiple sources. Wishful thinking is to me a major reason for hope. The two are difficult to separate. We must be sympathetic to hope and wishful thinking, we must understand that for the family, this is reality. Often religious beliefs are added to strengthen hope and make the wishful thinking seem real and generate a feeling of certainty for the family – certainty that the patient will recover, but this should not be allowed to overshadow reality.

Societal issues also come into play. There are a variety of advocacy groups who state that patients are allowed to die, indeed some say they are "killed" by doctors, because of something in the patients' background. The most vocal of these groups are those that advocate for the disabled. They suggest, even aggressively make the point, that doctors withhold treatments from the disabled because they are disabled. They ignore the basic fact that even the disabled get to the point when the body cannot function with or without medical intervention. The outrage expressed by these advocacy groups affects the thinking of the public at large. Race, socioeconomic status, age for example are perceived as reasons why doctors withhold treatments. This zeal distorts thinking and unrealistic expectations arise. This brings out demands for treatments that, in the considered analysis and judgement of the professionals, will not work. "Will not work" has many levels. The patient's lung and heart and other vital functions will not be sustained except through intensive medical interventions. The primary goal of the medical team is to have a self sustaining body. If that is not feasible, then that intervention should be stopped. There are exceptions of course. If the family wants the patient "alive" until another friend or family member who is away can come to see the patient, that is different. Just to keep the heart beating by artificial means is a goal that is not acceptable to most medical professionals. The discussion and clarification of the implications of such goals is an important part of the process. Religion, faith and belief in god is another factor which some into play in these end of life situations. The way these are dealt with will vary with the "faith" of the medical team. However, it is clear that the chaplains, priests and other religious "professionals" understand death, it's inevitability and usually advocate comfort measures in situations like the one described above. Their input to help resolve such conflicts is valuable. Death is inevitable, it is also irreversible, therefore, it brings out in many of us, a rational irrationality. We do not know how to deal with that kind of finality. For a variety of reasons our society does not know how to deal with death. Our response is to deny it, postpone it or blame it on others.

As medical professionals, we need to be kind, sympathetic and understanding. But we have to be firm and must guide the family through the goals, the reality and take them towards a rational understanding of what is happening to the patients body.

Ultimately, I feel that medical professionals, after due analysis and consensus, should have the responsibility and authority to stop the treatments they know are only prolonging the process of death, and provide a good death to patient and comfort to the family.

Aroop Mangalik is a Professor of Medicine at the University of New Mexico Cancer Center.

Sorry for the long post. This is a copy/paste from a medical professional site. I am not the author.
 
Lets just say that both these people met the definition of brain death; pupils fixed and dilated, no gag, no breathing over vent, ect.
. . .
I also recently had a conversation with a surgeon who wanted to do a hip repair on a person who had just been made CMO/hospice.

Agree with Periopdoc, fix the hip. How could you leave a person in misery and bedridden for the rest of their life instead of fixing the hip?

For the other procedures, fixed and dilated pupils with an absent gag seems a good reason for an emergent crani. Hard to know without more details. And if the neurosurgeon thinks decompression will help, then I personally have no problems doing the anesthesia. Maybe I've been lucky, but the neurosurgeons I've worked with will be the first to declare the futility of intervention.
 
If the surgeon is willing to take the chance of imminent intraop and/or postop mortality and have it count against their "stats", then it is their right to offer the operation. You can only do a responsible informed consent with the family/advocate, and if they want to proceed with the surgery after understanding the risks and futility of the operation, then it is your responsibility to do the case or find someone who is willing to replace you. Sounds simple to me, but whether this is truly feasible as a resident that is another story.
 
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