Ethics, vegetarianism, and the treatment of farm animals.

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animalrights

Cow Hugger
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I have been interested in pursuing veterinary medicine for a few years now but have only recently come across an ethical dilemma. I have been a vegetarian for 2 years and a vegan for almost a year now, stemming from my passion for animal welfare. I have recently noticed that in a veterinary clinic I am always the only vegetarian in the room. Working with large animal vets I have seen a wide spectrum of treatment of dairy cows (for instance), from caring but firm treatment to violent, sadistic treatment, both from the vets and the farmers. As a veterinarian, aren't you supposed to focus on the prevention of suffering before the treatment? Therefore, why aren't more veterinarians also vegetarian? And how do you feel about the varying treatment of farm animals? Is this not the right field for someone with a passion for animal rights?

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Veterinarians, and most people here, tend to be more animal welfare than animal rights.
And if you truly believe in animal rights in its purest form, you would be anti veterinary care and anti domestication of animals, so no its not the right field for that type of person.
 
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Veterinarians, and most people here, tend to be more animal welfare than animal rights.
And if you truly believe in animal rights in its purest form, you would be anti veterinary care and anti domestication of animals, so no its not the right field for that type of person.

I totally agree, could not have said it any better! You need to look up animal rights vs. animal welfare. there is a big difference and it doesn't sound like you are familiar with it because you mention your passion for both animal rights and animal welfare
 
I have to agree that this is not the profession for someone who feels very strongly for animal rights. As stated above, animal welfare is different, and most vets want to what is best for the animal. But, when it comes to cows, chickens, and other farm animals typically used as a food source, vets have to know and understand the business side of large animal medicine. The cows are not beloved pets, but their means of making a living and supporting their families.

I work for a racehorse veterinarian right now. Most of the time the horses are treated very well, sometimes like children, but there again, the trainers and owners see them as an income. As a vet, you have to understand that the owners will sometimes do what is best for their bank accounts and livelihood rather than what is best for the animal.

Also, what may seem "rough" or "stern" may or may not be to large animals. Horses and cows are very strong, tough animals that could easily over power a human and seriously injure us. Proper control and restraints, like a humane twitch or lip chain are sometimes needed to protect all involved, both the people and the animals.

If I were you, I would try to shadow some more vets, in a lot of different areas to see if this is something you can come to be comfortable with, as I imagine you feel strongly about your opinions (nothing wrong with that, and it is great you want to figure this out before applying).
 
I totally agree, could not have said it any better! You need to look up animal rights vs. animal welfare. there is a big difference and it doesn't sound like you are familiar with it because you mention your passion for both animal rights and animal welfare

I know vets who are vegetarian, and vets who live off the quarter pounders at burger king. I know vets who are avid hunters, and raise and train hunting beagles, and spend their weekends enjoying the "sport". Do I necessarily agree with all of them? No. Do I think it makes them any less of a veterinarian? No.

I agree there are definitely big differences between animal welfare and animal rights. Most vets don't think animals should be abused. However, most vets also don't think that their cows deservce the right to vote or the right to a fair trial before execution. They understand that animals are not people, and should not be governed by or entitled to the same rights.
 
I totally agree, could not have said it any better! You need to look up animal rights vs. animal welfare. there is a big difference and it doesn't sound like you are familiar with it because you mention your passion for both animal rights and animal welfare

I apologize, I misspoke when I mentioned animal rights. I know that large animal medicine, particularly with dairy cows, is not an area where an animal rights activist would be appropriate. What I meant to say was animal welfare. In an ideal world where there is no animal suffering I would strive to be an animal rights activist, in the meantime animal welfare is my top priority.
 
To clarify, what I'm asking is for other opinions on the subject of treating animals and then going home and consuming them. Is it hypocritical? I have a lot of experience on dairy farms and have seen very fair and humane treatment, however mastitis and infections after calving were very numerous. Wouldn't supporting an industry which causes illness in animals be going against the veterinary oath, to prevent animal suffering first and foremost?
 
Wouldn't supporting an industry which causes illness in animals be going against the veterinary oath, to prevent animal suffering first and foremost?

You must be reading a different oath than I am:

http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jun04/040601t.asp said:
[FONT=Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-1]Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, the relief of animal suffering, the conservation of animal resources, the promotion of public health, and the advancement of medical knowledge.[/SIZE].
[FONT=Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-1]I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity, and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.[/SIZE].
[FONT=Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-1]I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.
[/SIZE].
 
To clarify, what I'm asking is for other opinions on the subject of treating animals and then going home and consuming them. Is it hypocritical? I have a lot of experience on dairy farms and have seen very fair and humane treatment, however mastitis and infections after calving were very numerous. Wouldn't supporting an industry which causes illness in animals be going against the veterinary oath, to prevent animal suffering first and foremost?

It's a matter of personal opinion, and your personal beliefs. It's going to be a different situations for every vet. Some bovine vets have no problem eating beef. I know poultry vets who will eat any kind of meat but poultry. I know some vets who have no problem eating anything. I know some vets who will only eat the species that "they don't see on a daily basis."
 
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To clarify, what I'm asking is for other opinions on the subject of treating animals and then going home and consuming them. Is it hypocritical?

IMO, no. I believe it's completely possible to be a good vet and eat meat. I do not believe the two are connected in any way.

I know vets who are vegetarian, and vets who live off the quarter pounders at burger king. I know vets who are avid hunters, and raise and train hunting beagles, and spend their weekends enjoying the "sport". Do I necessarily agree with all of them? No. Do I think it makes them any less of a veterinarian? No.
:thumbup: This.
 
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The way I see it is that we as humans use domestic and wild animals in a variety of ways. The most obvious is what you are describing, with raising animals and consuming them or their products. The other obvious one is the use of lab animals in developing medications and learning more about how our bodies work. Veterinarians, as well as human doctors, rely on biomedical research and lab animals. So we have situations where we test dog medication on dogs (harming them in some cases) so that other dogs can be safe. Lots of interesting ethics there. But we also use horses for sports and riding, and dogs in sports and service jobs. We hunt wild animals for sport or food. Even pet animals are bred and sold for human enjoyment (or to catch mice or guard the home). We breed and kill more cows to feed to our dogs and cats.

What I'm trying to say is that basically any interaction we have with animals is for our benefit. Different people draw the line at different places about what is an appropriate use of animals. Some choose not to eat animals but take medicine that was developed using animals (ie any medicine). I know strict vegans that have cats, and of course their cats eat meat. So technically they are still supporting the industry. Some see dog racing as cruel but consider using a service dog OK.

In some sense also realize that life is suffering. Not to get Buddhist but there is always pain associated with life. Even a beloved, cherished pet is going to get stung by a bee or catch a cold or step on something sharp. Or it could catch a terrible and painful disease through no fault of the owner. Should we not own dogs because they will experience pain at some point? Some would say yes, but most would say no. Is it better to never have been born, or to live and experience suffering as well as good things, or to live and experience a monotonous but painless life? I don't think anyone can really answer that, especially for an animal. Along with this, every life ends. Animals do not have the same sense of time we do; they live until they die, and a cow that dies at six months will not feel cheated the way a person that dies young might. Therefore I don't think it is necessarily cruel to end an animal's life prematurely.

I do think that as humans we have a great responsibility towards the animals we have domesticated - namely to prevent cruelty and unnecessary suffering. Again people are going to define those differently but the basics of food, water, shelter, and basic medical care are what is provided for by law right now. There are some things most people will agree are cruel - dogfighting, starving animals, depriving them of medical care when sick or injured. Then there are the gray areas.

The role of the veterinarian is to provide that medical care and alleviate suffering from pain and disease, either through treatment or euthanasia. I don't think that makes it hypocritical for a veterinarian to then go home and eat a steak, or ride a horse, or take a dog to agility class.

I do think there are differences between species and even between individual animals in what is an appropriate way to treat them. Not in terms of food, water, pain, but in terms of affection and companionship. I think when we breed dogs over hundreds of years to value and seek out human companionship, and then tie up a dog in the yard with a little doghouse, it's not necessarily cruel, but it's not good either. Conversely I doubt the average cow wants to bond with people because that's not what we have bred into them.

This brings up the difference between what is acceptable and what is ideal, and I think it's important to define which we are dealing with in this type of discussion. Is it ideal for a cow to live six months in a barn with adequate food, water, and medical care, and then be humanely killed? Probably not. Is it acceptable? I think so, but I'm just one person. I think it is very important that people talk about these things and are properly educated on the life of a farm cow or racehorse or shelter cat or guide dog so that we can keep refining the best methods for caring for these animals.
 
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To clarify, what I'm asking is for other opinions on the subject of treating animals and then going home and consuming them. Is it hypocritical? I have a lot of experience on dairy farms and have seen very fair and humane treatment, however mastitis and infections after calving were very numerous. Wouldn't supporting an industry which causes illness in animals be going against the veterinary oath, to prevent animal suffering first and foremost?


I look at it from the perspective that if all veterinarians boycotted working in the livestock industry because it leads to animal disease and suffering....a lot more disease and suffering would happen because of a lack of available veterinary care. It's kind of like saying you don't want to work in small animal med because you feel awful seeing Fluffy suffer from an illness and possibly get put to sleep. The hard truth is Fluffy is probably going to get sick from something, and is definitely going to die one way or another. A veterinarians job is to relieve suffering, and provide humane treatment including humane death, not prevent bad things from ever happening to any animal ever.
 
To clarify, what I'm asking is for other opinions on the subject of treating animals and then going home and consuming them. Is it hypocritical? I have a lot of experience on dairy farms and have seen very fair and humane treatment, however mastitis and infections after calving were very numerous. Wouldn't supporting an industry which causes illness in animals be going against the veterinary oath, to prevent animal suffering first and foremost?
Would they be better off living in the wild where they have no defenses against these diseases or predators? They're not made to live in the wild, they are entirely dependent on humans for a food source and for protection. They are also considered food animals so it is in the farmer's best interest to keep the animal healthy so that it is more productive.

How would you end animal suffering? The PETA way is generally to either set domesticated animals free to be hit by cars or to euthanize them on the spot. Would you have all these farm animals made into pets that no one could afford to keep up? And how would you deal with vet school where animals die for the greater good? Just because the animals don't like what the vet is doing, do they have the right to refuse treatment like many animals rights people believe? (I'm curious, not being a dbag, I swear)
 
Part of why veterinary medicine is so exciting is because it's so complex.

In the case of agricultural animals, I believe a veterinarian is serving society more than the animals. It is the veterinarian's duty to ensure the animal is healthy, so that the people who consume products from that animal are also healthy. This may be the perfect aspect of the career for veterinarians that think the biology of animals is fascinating, but don't have an emotional attachment to them. It's quite admirable to protect people that way.

In the same way you wouldn't chastise your cat for eating turkey, you can't chastise any human for eating meat. We were never meant to be herbivores. I'm a vegetarian because it bothers me (personally) to eat something I care so much about... but I would never punish my cat or dog for catching a frog or rabbit. Do I hear a Lion King song coming on?
 
The issues truly are complex, and there are as many opinions and convictions and ways of acting on them as there are vets. You are by no means reqired to agree with every opinion and action. To me, you are only required to understand the rationale behind various opinions. You are free to be the kind of doctor you want to be.
 
Well Shanomong from what I saw at our short-lived lab job (LOL) lab animals have very humane lives. If I were a cat I'd rather live there than a shelter or be feral anyway.

And I definitely don't think that what you described is hypocritical or really that any of the vet lifestyle examples I gave are. I was just trying to say everyone has their own opinions and reasons and that vets as "users" of animals are not hypocritical by definition. I didn't know if you thought I was saying that but I wanted to make sure.
 
I think this is a great and interesting discussion.

I see where "animalrights" is coming from. The humane treatment of animals is definately important to me. That doesn't mean that animals can't be used in research or for food. But in the manner that they are housed and slaughtered, or put to sleep...should be humane.

All of the veterinarians and scientists I have worked with have much respect for animals. Some are vegetarians..and some aren't but that's a personal choice.

I am very interesed in conservation medicine. That being said I feel we have to look at the world as a whole. We must make personal decisions to prevent further changes in our environment that are harmful to wildlife, and humans. There is a connection between the way we treat the environment and the health of living things...we know this we are scientists...right? Deforestation for livestock is a huge problem. That to me is a better reason to be a vegetarian.

As scientists we must always keep questioning things. As responsible members of society we must constantly try to live as aware as we can of the consequenses of our actions.


So I do not advise that "animalrights" go on to work in the food industry. But I do think that you can use that passion for animal rights to have a wonderful career in another aspect of the veterinary field.
 
I want to go into lab animal medicine and i work at NIH now. Im shadowing the vet in our department and have visited all of the facilities on campus. All of the animals are treated really well and everything is strictly regulated. The mice and rats have bedding and toys. The primates are enriched with toys, TV (im not joking), and finger paint (still not joking). They also have extra large play rooms (can fit 20+ primates) where different groups of primates are rotated in and one cool thing is they built this cylindrical pinwheel/ferris wheel, i love watching them play on it!
 
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I want to go into lab animal medicine and i work at NIH now. Im shadowing the vet in our department and have visited all of the facilities on campus. All of the animals are treated really well and everything is strictly regulated. The mice and rats have bedding and toys. The primates are enriched with toys, TV (im not joking), and finger paint (still not joking). They also have extra large play rooms (can fit 20+ primates) where different groups of primates are rotated in and one cool thing is they built this cylindrical pinwheel/ferris wheel, i love watching them play on it!

Oh man, I am seriously jealous! That sounds awesome! My only lab animal experience has been with rats and rabbits.
 
"Violent, sadistic treatment"--Umm, what?

I think most farmers understand that hurting their animals won't make them grow more efficiently, breed easier, or give more milk/eggs/whatever.

I have a real problem with people getting offended with the way farm animals are treated without knowing the facts. I just spent the afternoon washing some pigs. Did I push them to make them move? You bet! Did I give them a little slap for motivation? Yes again! They are not children-pigs have thick skin.

Animals do not need the same rights as people! "You are worth more than many sparrows!"

--From a hopeful FSIS vet who wants to spend her life in a slaughterhouse.
 
To repeat what others have said, no I do not see a conflict of interests. Animalrights, why not look into another area of vet med -- like companion animal of some kind, or maybe even wildlife? Yes, to pass your boards you will have to work with production animals to some extent, at least until you are done with school. After that you can never again so much as think about cows, chickens or pigs if you so choose. In my class of 97 there are 8 vegetarians and a vegan that I know of, and actually the vegan has handled the dairy and swine tours just fine as far as I know. You do not personally have to agree with every aspect of every kind of animal use. But you do need to have an open mind. Anyhow, I would imagine there are far more vegans/vegetarians per capita in vet med than just about any other field. So you will be in good company in that regard. :thumbup: Also, I have seen far worse care by many pet owners than I have on most farms. That said, while I will never give up my cow for dinner, I myself have a few qualms about some aspects of food animal medicine. So, I probably will steer a little clear of those areas. No problems. :)
 
ETA: disclaimer about the "fish don't suffer" and "lab animals are probably living in generally better conditions than food animals"... I have no idea, it's an opinion based on very little actual information. Let me know (nicely please :D) if that's a misconception.... though be aware that it would take a hell of a lot to convince me that fish who are fed, disease-free, and not suffocated are being treated inhumanely...
From what I've heard about aquaculture, the fish are kept in enclsoures with a lot more density of fish than they're used to (no surprise, going from the ocean/lake to a container), pre-dosed large quantities of antibiotics because of the close quarters and possible rapid spread of disease, and fed processed foods of some type. This is all super-convenient for the fishers, but as a whole probably not really comfortable for the fish, but probably not abusive in any way. From my extremely uninformed opinion, it's a little like cattle farming with a lot more water and processed food.

Mind you, I've never been to fish farms or anything myself. This is what I've gleaned from aquarium visits, teachers, and a whole lot of hearsay. Plus a lot of stuff about sustainable fishing techniques and how a lot of fishers didn't and still don't use them and it's a problem. But yeah. Probably should take this with a grain of salt. Only reason I'm posting it is 'cause it's on my mind since my microbio teacher was talking about it late last week.

I haven't really eaten fish since long before I heard about this stuff, just because I don't like the taste of it.

Farm-grown salmon are supposedly dyed pink because they aren't eating the shrimp and other foods that turn them pink in the wild. (I just think that's interesting. It has nothing to do with anything.)
 
I believe animal rights and animal welfare must be clearly separated if you plan on becoming a vet. The main goal of a vet is to promote animal welfare, and not work towards animal rights. The vet is to do what is best for the animal, even if that means euthanasia. Vets obviously care for all animals, but are much more invested in farm animals welfare than their rights. Farming is a business just like any other, and large animals are used as a main food source in this country. Large animals differ greatly from small animals from a human perspective (we don't sit around the table and say grace over dog meat, we don't dress cows up in sweaters and take them on a walk) Small animals are domestic. They become members of people's families. They fit right into a home setting and generally are not very high in cost to maintain. Not to say that there aren't people who own pigs and sheep as pets (we've all seen those specials!) but it is just very rare to find this. You can be any kind of doctor you want to be, but you must keep the animals' welfare first and foremost in your mind and understand that farming is a business, just like any other.

(p.s. I was a vegetarian for 1 yr, 6 mos. after watching all the "Meet Your Meat", PETA videos, etc. Had to stop because it was effecting my health. I also realized that I wanted to become a vet, which entailed providing animal welfare, not being too invested in animal rights)
 
In response to your question, I will give you my opinion - keeping in mind we all come from different backgrounds. But since you asked an interesting question I'll give you my 2 cents.

First, I agree with others that believe you need to clearly seperate animal welfare and rights. I don't believe in animal rights - and anyone who does shouldn't ever own any sort of pet. And believing we shouldn't own pets would end the veterinary profession and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Anyway, this is a belief that can come from different places. I am a christian (I'm definitely not trying to start a religion argument, just stating my experience), and therefore follow scripture that tells us that we have dominion over animals. This is why I feel it's natural and perfectly fine to raise animals for food.

Next, I am an avid bird hunter who trains shorthairs and labradors - and I have a strong interest in wildlife medicine (and know a large number of vets that do the same). Does that mean that I love animals any less than you? Does that mean that it would be rediculous for me to go into that field? Absolutely not. In fact, I would argue that I have done more than the average person through donations to organizations such as pheasants forever and ducks unlimited who purchase ground and protect breeding areas to help these species flourish. I would also argue that I have an appreciation for waterfowl and pheasants that 99% of non-hunters don't. Lastly, I can absolutely promise you these breeds are the happiest when they're out doing what they're bred for. And if it's all about making our pets happy, then letting them chase birds should be a great thing. Anyway, before I start rambling I guess that I just wanted to offer you another perspective. I'm not arguing for hunting rights or anything, just trying to show that a person doesn't have to be a vegan to want to help animals and pursue veterinary medicine.
 
In the case of agricultural animals, I believe a veterinarian is serving society more than the animals. It is the veterinarian's duty to ensure the animal is healthy, so that the people who consume products from that animal are also healthy. This may be the perfect aspect of the career for veterinarians that think the biology of animals is fascinating, but don't have an emotional attachment to them. It's quite admirable to protect people that way.

Wow. Way to make massive assumptions about people.
I am significantly emotionally attached to animals. And yet I am keen bean for large animal medicine because i think its a great way to combine my love for animals and my love for the rural lifestyle, while helping ensure a good outcome for both the animals and the farmers. In fact, I find it exceptionally satisfying to know that through my work, I am making the animals lives better as well as helping the farmer get more money for his hard work.

I think you would be hard pressed to find a large animal vet that does not love animals just as much as a small animal vet. I think its really ignorant to suggest that. Given how much less large animal vets get paid than smallies, i think you'll find a lot more small animal vets who are "meh" about animals than you would find large animal vets. Large animal vets just show their emotions in different ways, and realise they are in a totally different industry.

To the OP, I don't find it hypocritical - as food vet, you are making sure these animals lead the healthiest life they can, so they can pack on the pounds and go off to slaughter. I understand what you mean about the varying treatment of animals though - and this is where YOU come in! I feel that it is part of my job to encourage best practice to farmers when it comes to raising animals, and really - best practice usually leads to best results. Farmers, in general, want the very best for their animals - healthy, well treated animals gain the most weight quickest and give the best meat - but often do not know what best practice is. So by further education of farmers by us, we can not only improve the welfare of these animals, but also the farmers profits. And this is a combination I am so passionate about!!! :D
 
animalrights, have you ever in your entire life swallowed a pill, had an injection, or used makeup or ointments of any sort? Ever worn leather? Worn wool? Drank milk? Used butter? If so, then you yourself are being the "hypocritical" type of person you're implying non-vegetarian vets are. Would it make you any less of a true veterinarian to admit so? I would say no, personally.

[FONT=Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-1]Being admitted to the profession of veterinary medicine, I solemnly swear to use my scientific knowledge and skills for the benefit of society through the protection of animal health, the relief of animal suffering, the conservation of animal resources, the promotion of public health, and the advancement of medical knowledge.[/SIZE].
[FONT=Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-1]I will practice my profession conscientiously, with dignity, and in keeping with the principles of veterinary medical ethics.[/SIZE].
[FONT=Times New Roman, Serif][SIZE=-1]I accept as a lifelong obligation the continual improvement of my professional knowledge and competence.[/SIZE].

What I take away from the veterinary oath is that you're there to benefit society (which ultimately means making people happy) through promoting animal health, minimizing animal suffering, and conserving animal resources. We all know that the human race will always eat meat, so as a veterinarian for food animals, it is not their job to eliminate the practice of eating meat, but to make the process of producing food animals the most humane for the animal. And if there were no vets catering to food animal production due to it being "hypocritical", then there would be immense suffering among that group of animals. Do you see? As a food animal vet it is impossible to eliminate the practice, but they are there by choice to provide the best care they can as their duty to the industry. They ARE doing their job, and even if they themselves eat meat it is because they know their work resulted in their hamburger living a happy life, because they were there to insure that.


I probably rambled and made no sense, but as a lab animal person I've been persecuted for being evil and hypocritical and mean to animals and I say that well damn, would you rather the animals not have a vet around to help them? It's ME who is insuring that the animals live happy lives despite their intended uses, thus fulfilling my duty to relive animal suffering. I could go on, but I'd probably be repeating myself in different ways. :laugh:
 
"Violent, sadistic treatment"--Umm, what?

I think most farmers understand that hurting their animals won't make them grow more efficiently, breed easier, or give more milk/eggs/whatever.

I have a real problem with people getting offended with the way farm animals are treated without knowing the facts. I just spent the afternoon washing some pigs. Did I push them to make them move? You bet! Did I give them a little slap for motivation? Yes again! They are not children-pigs have thick skin.

Animals do not need the same rights as people! "You are worth more than many sparrows!"

--From a hopeful FSIS vet who wants to spend her life in a slaughterhouse.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with you. I know the "facts", I have been volunteering on a number of dairies for quite some time now. This was an older veterinarian who was treating the cows this way, I thought that maybe I was being extra sensitive but then I talked to a farmer about him and he told me that he would never let this vet touch his animals. This particular vet had lost his passion for veterinary medicine and was treating it just like any job, and thus had no patience or care for the animals he was working with. And I'm not saying in ANY means that non-human animals have the same rights as humans, animal rights is more about freedom to live their own life.
 
So I do not advise that "animalrights" go on to work in the food industry. But I do think that you can use that passion for animal rights to have a wonderful career in another aspect of the veterinary field.

Actually I am interested large animal medicine, as well as wildlife, conservation, and small. But thanks for your suggestion!

And thanks for everyone's comments, I love a good debate.
 
(p.s. I was a vegetarian for 1 yr, 6 mos. after watching all the "Meet Your Meat", PETA videos, etc. Had to stop because it was effecting my health. I also realized that I wanted to become a vet, which entailed providing animal welfare, not being too invested in animal rights)

Perhaps you weren't eating right, I became a junk food vegetarian at first before I realized being a vegetarian meant you had to eat your vegetables! haha. My reason for going vegetarian was the same as yours, for animal WELFARE. Now that can become a reason for animal rights, but it doesn't have to be and you don't have to consume animals to be a good vet. I hope you consider changing your mind, and there are good, healthy vegetarian recipes on vegcooking.com
 
To the OP, I don't find it hypocritical - as food vet, you are making sure these animals lead the healthiest life they can, so they can pack on the pounds and go off to slaughter. I understand what you mean about the varying treatment of animals though - and this is where YOU come in! I feel that it is part of my job to encourage best practice to farmers when it comes to raising animals, and really - best practice usually leads to best results. Farmers, in general, want the very best for their animals - healthy, well treated animals gain the most weight quickest and give the best meat - but often do not know what best practice is. So by further education of farmers by us, we can not only improve the welfare of these animals, but also the farmers profits. And this is a combination I am so passionate about!!! :D

Thanks sunshinevet! That's what I hope to accomplish if I become a large animal vet. I also really like the farmer/vet team effort of making the animals and healthy and as comfortable as possible. I hope you maintain your passion for large animal medicine, as one vet I worked with definitely lost his, but I'm not sure that he went in to vet medicine for the right reasons to begin with. Good luck in all you do! :)
 
Ok, but I hope you realise that being a large animal vet is not just giving daisy a vaccine and turning her out to the paddock to get fat all day... I mean, there are practices out there which a lot of common people would feel are brutal, but vets and farmers feel are ok because they know its nessecerry - mulesing here in oz, docking sheeps tails, dehorning cattle. You're going to shoot a lot of animals you could save, because its cheaper to do that then treat. If your not ok with that, then large animal work really isn't for you.

And to be honest, I wouldn't really disclose your vegetarianism to your farming clients. It kinda shows that you don't have faith in what they do - so why would they trust their animals with you?
 
animalrights, have you ever in your entire life swallowed a pill, had an injection, or used makeup or ointments of any sort? Ever worn leather? Worn wool? Drank milk? Used butter? If so, then you yourself are being the "hypocritical" type of person you're implying non-vegetarian vets are. Would it make you any less of a true veterinarian to admit so? I would say no, personally.

Perfbird, I'm not implying non-vegetarian vets of being hypocritical. I was merely asking the question as a jumping off point for a discussion. What you choose to consume is a matter of your own personal ethical beliefs. And, in case you thought you had a point there for ME, I don't consume any animal products if I can help it. As for medicines, of course I use those. Lab animal use is still an ethical grey area for me.

We all know that the human race will always eat meat, so as a veterinarian for food animals, it is not their job to eliminate the practice of eating meat, but to make the process of producing food animals the most humane for the animal. And if there were no vets catering to food animal production due to it being "hypocritical", then there would be immense suffering among that group of animals. Do you see? As a food animal vet it is impossible to eliminate the practice, but they are there by choice to provide the best care they can as their duty to the industry.

I have a lot to say to this series of statements. Firstly, no we don't know that the human race will always eat meat. Right now, wildlife is being overhunted, habitats are being destroyed by development, and climate change is bringing many species to the brink of extinction. So there goes our wildlife. The amount of animals we are consuming is having catastrophic consequences on the environment (meat and dairy production account for more greenhouse gases than all the methods of transportation in the world). It takes a LOT of water and plant material to yield only one pound of meat, therefore if we continue raising livestock at the numbers we are demanding, there will not be enough plant material and water to raise the animals, let alone feed ourselves. We will run out of food if we don't eventually decrease, if not eliminate, our consumption of domesticated animals.

And again, I'm not saying that working in the food animal industry is hypocritical. What I'm asking is if you think that supporting the industry by purchasing meat is hypocritical, since, in the case of dairy cows, the means by which we acquire milk from animals only results in more infections and illness. Failing to treat animals in need would be unethical, we're not debating that.

They ARE doing their job, and even if they themselves eat meat it is because they know their work resulted in their hamburger living a happy life, because they were there to insure that.

The fact that you referred to a cow as a "hamburger" says a lot about your view on the worth of a cow.

Good for you for working with lab animals! I don't know if I could do it, but someone's got to so I commend you for it.
 
Ok, but I hope you realise that being a large animal vet is not just giving daisy a vaccine and turning her out to the paddock to get fat all day... I mean, there are practices out there which a lot of common people would feel are brutal, but vets and farmers feel are ok because they know its nessecerry - mulesing here in oz, docking sheeps tails, dehorning cattle. You're going to shoot a lot of animals you could save, because its cheaper to do that then treat. If your not ok with that, then large animal work really isn't for you.

And to be honest, I wouldn't really disclose your vegetarianism to your farming clients. It kinda shows that you don't have faith in what they do - so why would they trust their animals with you?

I understand that there's a lot to large animal medicine that I haven't seen yet, so I'll know with more certainty what I can handle once I become more accustomed to it, like any would-be veterinarian. And I'm not ok with mulesing, but it might be a cultural thing.

And no, I've never mentioned that I don't consume animals. Some farmers might take it the wrong way and take offense. I prefer that people support small family-run farms over the larger factory-type farms, and I try to suggest people buy their meat from local processors.
 
And I'm not ok with mulesing, but it might be a cultural thing.

Its not. It's a I don't like watching sheep die of flystrike thing. And with no truely viable alternatives, I will support mulesing until there is one.
 
In general, I agree but I think there is a side to this people tend to ignore. There are those practices that improve profits but certainly do not improve animal welfare (i.e. no pain relief during/after castration or other invasive procedures, the way chickens are slaughtered, docking dairy cows, etc.). The only way animal welfare can improve across the board is if it's either legislated or if there is a demand for that kind of product. An animal that is treated better is more likely to produce a better product but this only comes into play if consumers are able to recognize the difference and either pay more for it or simply create demand for it.

I hate to say it but I totally agree with this. Sometimes there really is no "practical" reason to treat your animal humanely. And appealing to sentiment is just too damn hard. I'm kind of grappling with this now living in a country where even animal welfare is considered pretty silly.


To clarify, what I'm asking is for other opinions on the subject of treating animals and then going home and consuming them. Is it hypocritical?

I guess that it depends on the way that a particular vet thinks of his profession. The wording of the veterinary oath seems to leave room for this. If he swore to protect animal health for the explicit purpose of ensuring human health, then he'd have nothing to lose sleep over. I mean, if my job was to inspect the quality of canned beans before they went on the market, I could go home and eat all the cans o' beans I wanted without being accused of hypocrisy.

So... in this case is it hypocritical? I don't think so. Could he still be a good vet? Sure.

BUT speaking personally as someone who is concerned with animal welfare and also hopes to be an LA vet: yes I suppose there is philosophically some contradiction in the fact that we exclude "not stabbing it in the head" from our standards of what constitutes humane treatment. But I don't really think of it as a problem. Look at anything you do and there will be some degree of hypocrisy to it. It's just a matter of where you draw the line. If we lived in a world of moral absolutes there would be no veterinarians at all because everyone would have blown their college tuitions on the 'Save the Children' fund or... NPR or something. Point is we need to strike up a balance on these kinds of things.

Also, quick point... if you're a vet and you're treating food animals, you ARE part of the industry. You're profiting off the breeding and slaughter/exploitation of animals no matter how you twist it. So it would be equally hypocritical to sit there with you hand up a cow's butt saying, "I really believe that everything you're doing is wrong, so I'm only here to give these animals you're abusing some semblance of happiness before you brutally murder them. Now give me my 200$." It might be a different story if you were doing it for free.

That said, personally, I rarely eat meat. And vegitarianism as a personal choice is, in my opinion, very admirable.
 
Right now, wildlife is being overhunted, QUOTE]

If you like a good debate, then please use facts in your "debate". This is an ignorant and incorrect statement. At least if you're referring to the United States. I can't speak for other countries.
 
Firstly, no we don't know that the human race will always eat meat.

No, we do. The human race will always eat meat. At the very least its a feed conversion issue. Unless we as humans evolved the ability to digest forage, we will always eat meat.

The fact that you referred to a cow as a "hamburger" says a lot about your view on the worth of a cow.

View it as meat free of possible human pathogens for about $.75 a pound?
 
Humans are animals, too. We eat meat. It doesn't grow on trees. Be careful confusing animal consumption with animal cruelty. Besides, are your pets all vegetarian, too?
 
I used to confuse animal rights with animal welfare too, and I went through the whole vegetarian/vegan lifestyle for a while after being duped by the PETA propaganda....and it was painful. I'm a foodie, so for me, it was especially hard not being able to enjoy meat and animal produce.

humans use animals for their benefit and it will always remain so. you can't give 'rights' to any species that cannot contemplate what 'rights' are in the first place.

I think the general consensus on this board is that being a vet has nothing to do with your own decision/reason to include meat and animal produce in your diet. I agree completely.
 
In general, I agree but I think there is a side to this people tend to ignore. There are those practices that improve profits but certainly do not improve animal welfare (i.e. no pain relief during/after castration or other invasive procedures, the way chickens are slaughtered, docking dairy cows, etc.). The only way animal welfare can improve across the board is if it's either legislated or if there is a demand for that kind of product. An animal that is treated better is more likely to produce a better product but this only comes into play if consumers are able to recognize the difference and either pay more for it or simply create demand for it.

A lot of LA vets are singularly devoted to animal health but I think there is a large portion which come to view themselves as simply business consultants and focus almost exclusively on the farmer's bottom line. I think that kind of attitude is a disservice to both public health and animal welfare.

OK, I had to address this after sitting through a thoroughly intrigueing lecture on pain treatment in beef and dairy industries and lots of discussions with the LA vets at our school. While I quoted a specific passage, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, just my opinion in general.

First thing first; if you anger the farmer, they will find another vet or will go without vet treatment. Coming from a very rural background, I know enough people who are estranged from the vet community and believe a bullet is far better than even having to talk to a vet who is less that tactful about how animals should be treated. Not saying I agree with it, but if you make people feel evil or treat them as such, they can easily choose not to deal with you or the profession. Many times farmer are balancing a livelihood that isn't affluent with the needs/costs to run a farm. It isn't an easy balance, and even when you think you have it figured out, a glut of dairy cows could drop the price of milk, or a mass cull due to an infection on another farm can cripple your farm, etc.

Second, the research in pain management for livestock is fairly limited, and most of it is still coming out of Canada and Europe. In some ways, that means the options are limited for treatment for animals that produce for food. If you want to alleviate suffering, get involved with that research.

Third, the quickest way to get a farmer or owner of any animal to cooperate with a vet is to offer them what they need; effective and efficient management that increases the net profit. That means staying educated and being able to communicate, in a supportive way, how humane methods work better.

Some examples; using lidocain and cauterization in debudding of dairy calfs results in a lack of gain (in mass) for 1 week, vs 3 weeks without lidocain with cauterization, and 4 weeks without either.

Raising poultry at 80% of capacity with more routine monitoring increasing dressed weight by 30%/carcass. That will, for most producers, result in a net gain.

However, alot of this information has not been available in a statistical format, and then, once it was, it wasn't well communicated or illustrated. Debudding with lidocaine is assumed to take longer because it takes 5 minutes for the nerve block to work....but if you set up the system right, not dealing with a freaked out animal that is trampling everything around it, throwing itself about, risking contusions and such, the lidocaine debudding can actually be faster, resulting in LESS cost.

If the farmer trusts the vet, and the vet communicates and illustrates this well, and treats the farmer with respect, we are far more likely to alter the current treatment of pain management, than if we just go in calling them sadistic and such.

As much as I would love to say demand will improve pain management, I don't like testosterone toughened steaks, and a lot of consumers won't either, so not castrating isn't likely. But showing a farmer that managing pain will increase profit by increasing lean mass will alter the use of pain management.

As for my personal view; animals are resources, and that includes the furry critters we keep in our home. Otherwise, we wouldn't be ok with the military having dogs or police using dogs, or even my SAR dogs. We wouldn't use dogs in reading programs or pet therapy programs. I do believe that we have a responsibility as humans to decide what we find acceptable. I am picky about what I eat 90% of the time (but I do eat out at times, so 10% of the time I don't get to be super picky.) By picky, I mean I purchase meat and eggs from local producers. I limit my consumption of meat (easier with the higher prices.) I helped my folks turn their farm into an organic farm of speciality production for high end resturaunts.

There is a lot we can do as vets and as consumers to alter the systems, but it can't be done by expecting immediate and drastic changes, and it has to be done with tact and respect.

If you believe in the well being of animals while still accepting them as resources, consider Temple Grandin's work...it is an excellent model for making the situation better for the animals in a couple of components of food production, while still embracing the entire point of domesticated animals.
 
Firstly, no we don't know that the human race will always eat meat. Right now, wildlife is being overhunted.

No, we do. The human race will always eat meat. At the very least its a feed conversion issue. Unless we as humans evolved the ability to digest forage, we will always eat meat.

:thumbup: I have to agree. The human race started off eating meat and will always do so. (This is whywe have K-9 teeth, they were not put there to look pretty.) In PETA's world every human would stop eating meat, we would feed our pets organic diets that do not contain meats and life would go on happy because none of the animals would be mistreated by being consumed. But then, they would realize that carrots are living too, and they probably don't want to be eaten either so, we shouldn't eat them. Where do you draw the line? Should we stop taking antibiotics because they kill living bacteria? People could twist this topic around to include so many things that could be considered "unethical."

I also have to disagree that wildlife is being overhunted. The entire purpose of having hunting season is to control wildlife populations so that they are not overcrowding and dying from the lack of resources. I would much rather somebody hunt elk than to have a bunch of decaying elk carcasses lying around in the forest because there simply was not enough food. I live in northern AZ and we have a few mountain lions and even less bear that can and do hunt elk/deer (bears prefer livestock), but the number of elk and deer far exceeds the number of bear and mountain lions and without hunting the deer/elk populations would explode. The forest service here has set up enclosed areas because the elk have prevented the aspen trees from reproducing (they keep eating all of the young aspen trees). Hunting is much better than overcrowding.
 
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