Ethics, vegetarianism, and the treatment of farm animals.

[Chapelle]

.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[twelvetigers]

Agreed: poaching =/= hunting, and that's what it is if you don't use the meat, or if it's an endangered species.

 

[DVMDream]

Is this because the bears and lions are hunted too? I'm ok with hunting overpopulated herbivores for food but not with hunting the predators that are supposed to control those herbivores just to take pictures with their dead bodies and take trophies home. Wolf hunts make me sick

It appears as though the bears and mountain lions are hunted as well. It also appears as though it is strictly regulated. I am not a hunting expert, but I can tell you that the elk and deer in AZ have taken over. Even without hunting of bears and mountain lions the elk and deer populations would grow out of control. According to AZ game and fish, bears tend to eat more livestock and mountain lions tend to eat white-tail deer and mule deer. This leaves the elk with no natural enemies. I have to agree I do not like the idea of hunting predator species, but the black bear seem to be lazy and hunt predominately livestock. Also, people use the bear meat. I have never heard of anyone eating mountain lion meat though. But, elk are the main problem in AZ and they do not have any natural enemies. So, I do believe elk hunting is necessary and I know people use the elk meat. But, I am not a hunting expert and if you feel the desire (or need to procrastinate) you can take a look at the AZ Game and Fish website and see what you think. http://www.azgfd.gov/index.shtml Maybe someone who has experience with hunting can give better insight to the hunting of predator/prey species.

 

[Perfbird]

I'm going to address this first, since taking a personal jab at me is NOT ok. You're making sweeping judgments in this thread that are completley unwarranted.

The fact that you referred to a cow as a "hamburger" says a lot about your view on the worth of a cow.

No, it doesn't. Tell me, what is my view on the worth of a cow? You don't know because you have not met me in person and do not know my beliefs or my stance on food animal issues. You read far too much into my words, you're trying to imply meaning where there is none. I said hamburger because, well, when a cow is slaughtered it is typically considered hamburger. Or sirloin, prime rib, strip steak, the like.

Perfbird, I'm not implying non-vegetarian vets of being hypocritical. I was merely asking the question as a jumping off point for a discussion.

You're asking people their opinions on whether being a vet and eating meat is hypocritical. And based on what I've seen of your opinions, you are of the opinion that yes, eating meat and being a veterinarian go against each other (and thus is hypocritical, as that is what you have asked).

What I'm asking is if you think that supporting the industry by purchasing meat is hypocritical, since, in the case of dairy cows, the means by which we acquire milk from animals only results in more infections and illness.

You've also referenced vets many times in your posts, you are in a pre-veterinary forum, talking with vet students, vets, and veterinary hopefuls, so I was assuming that you are asking about purchasing meat and being hypocritical in the sense of also being a veterinarian. I'm sorry if my assumption was wrong!

Firstly, no we don't know that the human race will always eat meat.

I can see your argument, I understand and have learned about the massive emissions from dairy and meat farms, as well as the input to outout ratios of livestock farming, as well as the problems regarding supplying enough inputs to sustain the outputs we demand. When you look at the numbers, it is quite intimidating to see that yes, we may be digging ourselves a giant hole that will be awful to deal with later regarding the use of animals as food. But, despite the numbers that seem to say it will be impossible, I can guarantee you that the human race will ALWAYS eat meat. A reduction in consumption is very well possible, but complete emlimination could never be implemented, as there are cultures and strong willed people that would not let a worldly vegetarian lifestyle exist. People will invent new ways to maintain meat production, since it is such a huge industry and the general population would never sit for a vegetarian lifestyle. There's some statistics out there that say majority of American families eat meat on a daily basis, so I don't think there's any way to completley eliminate that. I understand that you're saying we will run out of our resources eventually, but I'm willing to bet that people will find a way to preserve consumption of meat. Some optimistics in the 1990s had predicted that by now and in our near future the entire US population would be driving hybrids and living a green lifestyle. And although we are slowly moving forward, it has been happening excruciatingly slowly because people are unwilling to change. People like living the way they do, and even with facts and statistics of doom being publicized everywhere, they are unwilling to make the change.

Right now, wildlife is being overhunted

It really depends on what wildlife you are looking at. Poachers in Africa killing Cheetahs, reducing their population? Yes. White-tailed deer hunting season in the Midwest US leading to overhunting? No. It really depends, and since I don't know what you are exactly referring to, I'll wait to comment.

 

[Armymutt25A]

Once thing I've learned is to never pretend to know the future. When I was in 2nd grade, we were told that by 2000 we would be living on the moon, driving flying cars, and the Big Dipper would look more like a W. That was in 1983. In 1990, I was told that a 10MB hard drive was the biggest I'd ever need. I now have files that are in the 2GB range. I'm pretty sure that humans (in the current homo sapiens form) will always eat meat. As mentioned earlier, we are monogastrics, lacking the ability to break down lignin to access the nutrition inside of plant cell walls (amazed that I remember this after learning it in 1995). I don't know of anyone who can survive on grass or even silage. Humans are biologically designed to be omnivores.
To lighten things up, here's a unique perspective of vegetarianism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdcrEo1eCBY

 

[animalrights]

Right now, wildlife is being overhunted, QUOTE]

If you like a good debate, then please use facts in your "debate". This is an ignorant and incorrect statement. At least if you're referring to the United States. I can't speak for other countries.

Actually I was referring to the world as a whole.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/05/020530073400.htm

Thanks for calling ME ignorant though!

 

[animalrights]

Once thing I've learned is to never pretend to know the future. When I was in 2nd grade, we were told that by 2000 we would be living on the moon, driving flying cars, and the Big Dipper would look more like a W. That was in 1983. In 1990, I was told that a 10MB hard drive was the biggest I'd ever need. I now have files that are in the 2GB range. I'm pretty sure that humans (in the current homo sapiens form) will always eat meat. As mentioned earlier, we are monogastrics, lacking the ability to break down lignin to access the nutrition inside of plant cell walls (amazed that I remember this after learning it in 1995). I don't know of anyone who can survive on grass or even silage. Humans are biologically designed to be omnivores.
To lighten things up, here's a unique perspective of vegetarianism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdcrEo1eCBY

Seriously? Silage? So, as a vegetarian.. I should be eating silage! Ah I didn't know this! And to think I was wasting my time on vegetables, grains, fruits, nuts, legumes.... Listen. I'm not from the US, but about 1-2% of the US are vegan. Some cultures have been vegan for centuries. Dairy consumption is only recent in the evolutionary history of humans, around the time we started domesticating (which makes sense when you think about it). Just because we are capable of eating meat doesn't mean we have to eat it. The consumption of meat (and dairy) is proven to cause many health problems, including certain cancers and heart conditions. Maybe the evolution to a vegetarian diet is necessary for the survival of the human race? Who knows. I'm not contending to predict the future, just trying to provoke some thought.

 

[Walsh1122]

Is this because the bears and lions are hunted too? I'm ok with hunting overpopulated herbivores for food but not with hunting the predators that are supposed to control those herbivores just to take pictures with their dead bodies and take trophies home. Wolf hunts make me sick

If anyone is interested a few months back I read an excellent book on the role predators play in various ecosystems. The book does an excellent job at explaining the roles of predators and what will happen when/if they vanish. It also gives some excellent examples, the most noted being the re-introduction of wolves into Yellowstone. The name of the book is Where The Wild Things Were: Life, Death and Ecological Wreckage in a Land of Vanishing Predators by William Stolzenburg

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[animalrights]

(Note: I don't hunt and I never plan to. However, I think if you are going to eat meat then hunting is one of the most ethical ways of doing it)

 

[Pointer1330]

Actually I was referring to the world as a whole.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/05/020530073400.htm

Thanks for calling ME ignorant though!

Wow, did you miss the entire part of my post that mentioned "at least if you're referring to the United States"? I'm not arguing about other countries, but I do know many of the issues from overhunting in other areas are a result of overpopulation (of humans) and extreme poverty (again, most times a result of human overpopulation) and as a result people are hunting for food, or charging for exotic hunts to make some money. I do know that in the country I live in, hunting is highly regulated and the predator/prey relationship and ecological balance of animals is studied to control and even revive animal numbers. Since hunting in the US has become regulated, there have been a number of different species that have gone from near extinction to flourishing.

 

[August West]

Again, animalrights... why do you distinguish humans from all other species of carnivores and omnivores in citing that our dietary practices must somehow transcend the natural order of things. Do you deprive your pets meat in their diets in the name of animal welfare?

In my opinion, a better discussion might be centered on factory farming, its environmental consequences and the decreased standards of living conditions of the animals is a more focused topic to discuss than one premised on perceived righteousness of your own dietary choices without giving consideration to the natural order of living things and their food cycles.

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[shortnsweet]

I have been interested in pursuing veterinary medicine for a few years now but have only recently come across an ethical dilemma. I have been a vegetarian for 2 years and a vegan for almost a year now, stemming from my passion for animal welfare. I have recently noticed that in a veterinary clinic I am always the only vegetarian in the room. Working with large animal vets I have seen a wide spectrum of treatment of dairy cows (for instance), from caring but firm treatment to violent, sadistic treatment, both from the vets and the farmers. As a veterinarian, aren't you supposed to focus on the prevention of suffering before the treatment? Therefore, why aren't more veterinarians also vegetarian? And how do you feel about the varying treatment of farm animals? Is this not the right field for someone with a passion for animal rights?

You may live as you wish, but don't call vets who eat meat hypocritical or say we do not care about animal welfare. As for the treatment of farm animals, don't you think you think you are being a little close minded? They are are upwards of 1200 lbs animals, which minds of their own, and sometimes have no concept of how they throw their weight around. I am a current first year vet in Scotland, and the first few weeks we were on the farm learning cattle and sheep restraint...and from the sounds of it, you would call "casting a cow" ..sadistic and violent was it? While tying ropes up and literally pulling the cow over seems rough, you the vet always are aware of what you are doing and the circumstances. Plus, casting the cow or using a hip bar or even hobbles are way better alternatives to unruly cows than drugs, because as we learned, sedatives can severely mess up ruminants and even lead to death. They are also capable of tossing you like a rag doll if they wish, so a little "rough handling" is to protect yourself as well...I smack my horse with a crop on the butt to remind him to behave..is that being cruel? No, I use it as a last resort and a communication tool, same as a twitch to make him stand for the vet or farrier--- I never use it to abuse him. Is using a metal gag in a cow's mouth violent? It looks it, but how else are you going to check it's teeth?

Next, like I said, live your life as you wish with regards to eating meat..everyone has their reasons..but scientifically, as a pre-vet, you should know how Metabolism works, and that protein is vital to how we live. Yes, you can get protein from veggies and the like, but here are the stats of protein in food:
(compliments of The Harvard School of Public Health) Meats
Beef (6 oz.) - 54 grams
Turkey, breast (6 oz.) - 51.4 grams
Pork Chop (6 oz.) 49 grams
Turkey, dark meat (6 oz.) - 48.6 grams
Hamburger (6 oz.) - 48.6 grams
Chicken, dark meat (6 oz.) - 47.2 grams
Tuna (6 oz.) - 40.1 grams
Chicken, breast (6 oz.) - 37.8 grams
Salmon (6 oz.) - 33.6 grams
Dairy/Eggs
Cottage cheese (1 cup) - 28.1 grams
Yogurt, low fat (1 cup) - 10.7 grams
Skim milk (1 cup) - 8.3 grams
Whole milk (1 cup) - 8 grams
American cheese (1 oz.) - 7 grams
Soymilk (6 oz.) - 6.7 grams
Egg (1 large) - 6.3 grams
Beans and Legumes, Nuts
Tofu (6 oz.) - 13.8 grams
Peanut Butter (2 Tbsp.) - 8.1 grams
Almond Butter (2 Tbsp.) - 7 grams
Lentils (1/2 cup) - 9 grams
Split Peas (1/2 cup) - 8.1 grams
Kidney Beans (1/2 cup) - 7.6 grams
Sesame Seeds (1 oz.) - 7.5 grams
Black Beans (1/2 cup) - 7.5 grams
Fruits and Vegetables
Orange (large) - 1.7 grams
Banana (medium) - 1.2 grams
Green Beans (1/2 cup) - 1 gram
Carrots (1/2 cup) - .8 gram
Apple (large) - 0 grams


So really..you have to eat a ****-ton (excuse my French) more veggies to even come close to getting the protein you need to build and maintain muscle and keep you energy up..just sayin'. Plus, like other people said, it is much harder for carnivores to break down and retrieve what we need from autotrophs/plants..it is far easier and more energy efficient to get it from meat.



I am a vet student and I am an omnivore. I dislike and try to prevent the abuse of animals, and fully support the promotion of animal welfare. You will learn in your classes the standards for treatment of food animals, as well as how much your body and your pets need certain things like meat to survive.



So please, do not make sweeping observations of the entire profession, the people in it, and how people live. Vets do swear by an oath to support animal welfare, so it is a profession for someone who cares about animal welfare, and to a certain extent, rights..but that is another debate, and I believe if Twelvetigers were on here, she'd pull up the PETA/Animal Rights vs. Animal Welfare debate thread.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[shred4life]

I'm sorry animalrights, but it does not seem as though you are "trying to provoke thoughts" or even get an answer, it seems you are taking everything any of us say personally and are trying to make vast assumptions about the people on here and the veterinary profession. You asked a question, and everyone has given you a thoughtful response, yet you jump quickly to harshly disagree. Everyone on here is either in veterinary school already, or is pre-vet and therefore we all care about animals. We are all entitled to our opinions, but that doesn't mean you have to insult people when they are simply answering the question you asked. None of us are interested in this field to promote the suffering of animals. We all care about all animals, but understand and accept that when dealing with animals, especially large farm animals, certain measures must be taken that are in the best interest of the animals health. If you are going to ask a question like the one you have asked to a bunch of veterinary/pre-vet students you should be a little more open minded than you are being right now.

 

[shortnsweet]

deleted because I misread and spoke too soon haha

ETA: what I had posted originally was some numbers about what the daily protein requirement is (~1g/kg/day for a moderately active person)... I thought Tofu had said something in the 30s not 13.... I just went and looked at some stuff in my kitchen and realized i"m not getting nearly enough protein. I think this could probably account for some of the health issues I've had (mild...but still). This has been a wake up call... I'm not going to run out and get a burger but I'm definitely going to start making sure I consume enough protein... Thanks Shortnsweet for pointing that out

Glad I could be of service

 

[Shanomong]

.

 

[animalrights]

You may live as you wish, but don't call vets who eat meat hypocritical or say we do not care about animal welfare. As for the treatment of farm animals, don't you think you think you are being a little close minded? They are are upwards of 1200 lbs animals, which minds of their own, and sometimes have no concept of how they throw their weight around. I am a current first year vet in Scotland, and the first few weeks we were on the farm learning cattle and sheep restraint...and from the sounds of it, you would call "casting a cow" ..sadistic and violent was it? While tying ropes up and literally pulling the cow over seems rough, you the vet always are aware of what you are doing and the circumstances. Plus, casting the cow or using a hip bar or even hobbles are way better alternatives to unruly cows than drugs, because as we learned, sedatives can severely mess up ruminants and even lead to death. They are also capable of tossing you like a rag doll if they wish, so a little "rough handling" is to protect yourself as well...I smack my horse with a crop on the butt to remind him to behave..is that being cruel? No, I use it as a last resort and a communication tool, same as a twitch to make him stand for the vet or farrier--- I never use it to abuse him. Is using a metal gag in a cow's mouth violent? It looks it, but how else are you going to check it's teeth?

Next, like I said, live your life as you wish with regards to eating meat..everyone has their reasons..but scientifically, as a pre-vet, you should know how Metabolism works, and that protein is vital to how we live. Yes, you can get protein from veggies and the like, but here are the stats of protein in food:
(compliments of The Harvard School of Public Health) Meats
Beef (6 oz.) - 54 grams
Turkey, breast (6 oz.) - 51.4 grams
Pork Chop (6 oz.) 49 grams
Turkey, dark meat (6 oz.) - 48.6 grams
Hamburger (6 oz.) - 48.6 grams
Chicken, dark meat (6 oz.) - 47.2 grams
Tuna (6 oz.) - 40.1 grams
Chicken, breast (6 oz.) - 37.8 grams
Salmon (6 oz.) - 33.6 grams
Dairy/Eggs
Cottage cheese (1 cup) - 28.1 grams
Yogurt, low fat (1 cup) - 10.7 grams
Skim milk (1 cup) - 8.3 grams
Whole milk (1 cup) - 8 grams
American cheese (1 oz.) - 7 grams
Soymilk (6 oz.) - 6.7 grams
Egg (1 large) - 6.3 grams
Beans and Legumes, Nuts
Tofu (6 oz.) - 13.8 grams
Peanut Butter (2 Tbsp.) - 8.1 grams
Almond Butter (2 Tbsp.) - 7 grams
Lentils (1/2 cup) - 9 grams
Split Peas (1/2 cup) - 8.1 grams
Kidney Beans (1/2 cup) - 7.6 grams
Sesame Seeds (1 oz.) - 7.5 grams
Black Beans (1/2 cup) - 7.5 grams
Fruits and Vegetables
Orange (large) - 1.7 grams
Banana (medium) - 1.2 grams
Green Beans (1/2 cup) - 1 gram
Carrots (1/2 cup) - .8 gram
Apple (large) - 0 grams


So really..you have to eat a ****-ton (excuse my French) more veggies to even come close to getting the protein you need to build and maintain muscle and keep you energy up..just sayin'. Plus, like other people said, it is much harder for carnivores to break down and retrieve what we need from autotrophs/plants..it is far easier and more energy efficient to get it from meat.



I am a vet student and I am an omnivore. I dislike and try to prevent the abuse of animals, and fully support the promotion of animal welfare. You will learn in your classes the standards for treatment of food animals, as well as how much your body and your pets need certain things like meat to survive.



So please, do not make sweeping observations of the entire profession, the people in it, and how people live. Vets do swear by an oath to support animal welfare, so it is a profession for someone who cares about animal welfare, and to a certain extent, rights..but that is another debate, and I believe if Twelvetigers were on here, she'd pull up the PETA/Animal Rights vs. Animal Welfare debate thread.

First of all, I didn't create this thread to denounce non-vegetarian vets. I am interested in veterinary medicine but have been having an internal conflict because some of the things that I have seen have conflicted with my beliefs of the treatment of animals. I do think that there is a disconnect in North America with the meat people buy in the supermarket and the reality of the food production industry, but I think vets know more than anyone of this reality. I know you can be a great vet and eat meat, I've seen it first hand. That's not what I'm suggesting. But you have to admit that we are exploiting cows for their milk, and it does result in more illness than if they were producing milk naturally for their calves (without the high-energy feed, crowding, and constant contact with manure).

Again this is my opinion, I know most of you on this board don't share the same opinion, but I respect your opinions and do not intend to offend you. Typed responses may come off as hostile or defensive when really they're not. This is a discussion board, so when someone expresses an opinion that is different than yours, discuss it! There's no need for hostility.

As for the whole protein thing.. to be honest I haven't heard that argument in awhile. To keep it short, yes of course there is more protein in meat. Does more necessarily mean better? Not in my opinion, no. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I read somewhere that Americans typically consume 12% of their daily calories in protein, and the recommended intake is around 5-7%. Too much protein can lead to a number of health problems. Osteoporosis for one. And Americans tend to suffer from diseases of excess, rather than deficiencies. But I didn't become a vegetarian for health reasons, although it was a nice bonus.

And to respond to your comments on handling large animals. I'm repeating myself, but I know how some large animals are handled, not all of them mind you but I know about cows. They're big, they're stubborn, and they can be aggressive at times so you have to be firm. I've seen a good vet handle these guys and no one got hurt, he was very effective. What I was referring to was recently, I went shadowing a vet who has been in the dairy business for 25 years. He was rough with them, which didn't bother me at first, but then he started calling them derogatory names and getting really impatient. Then he became violent with them because of his impatience. They were confused, fell down, hurt themselves. Now, I know that they can't understand that he was calling them these bad names, I'm not an idiot. But it was an atmosphere of such profound hate and disregard of animal safety that I was a bit rattled. Afterwards, I talked with a dairy farmer who I volunteer with on a day-to-day basis and he told me that he wouldn't work with this vet, that he felt he had lost his passion and that he was too rough and careless with the cows.

So, to be clear, that's what I was referring to when I mentioned sadistic and violent, not any standard practices of restraining large animals.

 

[animalrights]

I'm sorry animalrights, but it does not seem as though you are "trying to provoke thoughts" or even get an answer, it seems you are taking everything any of us say personally and are trying to make vast assumptions about the people on here and the veterinary profession. You asked a question, and everyone has given you a thoughtful response, yet you jump quickly to harshly disagree. Everyone on here is either in veterinary school already, or is pre-vet and therefore we all care about animals. We are all entitled to our opinions, but that doesn't mean you have to insult people when they are simply answering the question you asked. None of us are interested in this field to promote the suffering of animals. We all care about all animals, but understand and accept that when dealing with animals, especially large farm animals, certain measures must be taken that are in the best interest of the animals health. If you are going to ask a question like the one you have asked to a bunch of veterinary/pre-vet students you should be a little more open minded than you are being right now.

If i'm coming across like I'm taking ANY of this personally, it's only when my comments are being criticized due to semantics, like the difference between animal welfare and rights. Other than that, none of this I am taking personally. I didn't mean to insult anyone, and I don't think that I did. I'm only expressing my own opinion. And of course you all care about animals, I'm not questioning that. Lighten up everyone! I don't think I'm being narrow-minded.. quite the opposite actually. In my opinion.. open-mindedness is what made me the vegan, animal/human rights activist that I am! If that threatens you, that's your problem. What you choose to consume is your personal decision, all I've been doing is defending myself against the attack of a forum who takes everything I've been saying personally.

 

[Armymutt25A]

Seriously? Silage? So, as a vegetarian.. I should be eating silage! Ah I didn't know this! And to think I was wasting my time on vegetables, grains, fruits, nuts, legumes.... Listen. I'm not from the US, but about 1-2% of the US are vegan. Some cultures have been vegan for centuries. Dairy consumption is only recent in the evolutionary history of humans, around the time we started domesticating (which makes sense when you think about it). Just because we are capable of eating meat doesn't mean we have to eat it. The consumption of meat (and dairy) is proven to cause many health problems, including certain cancers and heart conditions. Maybe the evolution to a vegetarian diet is necessary for the survival of the human race? Who knows. I'm not contending to predict the future, just trying to provoke some thought.

Perhaps I need to make it more clear to you. The point was made that it takes a lot of vegetable matter to raise livestock. Whom else would you have eat this vegetable matter? Would you have us plow under the entire western range lands of the US in order to plant some vegetable matter that is fit for human consumption? I've run into quite a few old cultures in my travels - marsh Arabs, Chaldeans, Kurds, and the odd Assyrian here and there. None have been vegetarian by choice. When given a choice between an animal protein source and a vegetable one, the animal is preferred because it is more palatable, more concentrated, and easier to produce. When your food is the highlight of your life, you want to have the best taste around. I'm not sure where you are going with the whole domestication thing. Even the most primitive of peoples have domesticated animals, most specifically for dairy production. Your arguments fall flat when confronted with the realities of the bulk of the world.

 

[August West]

Well animalrights, you provoked my thoughts, yet refuse to respond to my inquiry. Lets try again:

Why do you distinguish humans from all other species of carnivores and omnivores in citing that our dietary practices must somehow transcend the natural order of things. Do you deprive your pets meat in their diets in the name of animal welfare? Do you think we need to intervene and stop other carnivores from killing and consuming prey? After all, sitting by and idly witnessing such acts is just as bad as doing it ourselves, no?

 

[xcrunner423]

Here's just my personal take on this.

Carnivores need meat to survive whereas we, as humans, can survive and thrive on a diet that lacks meat.

I think, however, that it would be wrong to deprive many pets (such as cats) of meat especially since cats are carnivores and do NEED meat to survive.

I, personally, am a vegetarian. I have never told anyone else what to eat or what not to eat though. I don't really think that there is a "right" answer as to whether to be vegetarian or not. I'm probably hypocritical in many of my beliefs as are many people.

 

[animalrights]

Perhaps I need to make it more clear to you. The point was made that it takes a lot of vegetable matter to raise livestock. Whom else would you have eat this vegetable matter? Would you have us plow under the entire western range lands of the US in order to plant some vegetable matter that is fit for human consumption? I've run into quite a few old cultures in my travels - marsh Arabs, Chaldeans, Kurds, and the odd Assyrian here and there. None have been vegetarian by choice. When given a choice between an animal protein source and a vegetable one, the animal is preferred because it is more palatable, more concentrated, and easier to produce. When your food is the highlight of your life, you want to have the best taste around. I'm not sure where you are going with the whole domestication thing. Even the most primitive of peoples have domesticated animals, most specifically for dairy production. Your arguments fall flat when confronted with the realities of the bulk of the world.

Thanks for clearing that up.
First of all, cows are fed silage which, as you know, is basically fermented corn. I don't know about you but I like corn... you don't think it's fit for human consumption? They also farm soybeans, wheat.. high sources of protein and very nutritious. And it is my understanding that cows need to consume A LOT of this to maintain their weight.. so why don't we just skip the middle man and eat it ourselves? What's wrong with that? Better for the environment. Better for our health. And we don't need to exploit any animals. My opinion.

And some cultures actually abstain from eating meat for religious or philosophical reasons, not just for the lack of animals.

And I love food. If I couldn't eat good food and be a vegetarian, I wouldn't be one.

 

[sunshinevet]

Honestly, global vegetarianism will never happen, as there is not sufficient land to grow suitable amounts of crops/vegetables to feed everyone. The majority of the worlds terrestrial surface is suited for grazing, no other type of farming.

 

[sunshinevet]

Thanks for clearing that up.
First of all, cows are fed silage which, as you know, is basically fermented corn. I don't know about you but I like corn... you don't think it's fit for human consumption? They also farm soybeans, wheat.. high sources of protein and very nutritious. And it is my understanding that cows need to consume A LOT of this to maintain their weight.. so why don't we just skip the middle man and eat it ourselves? What's wrong with that? Better for the environment. Better for our health. And we don't need to exploit any animals. My opinion.

And some cultures actually abstain from eating meat for religious or philosophical reasons, not just for the lack of animals.

And I love food. If I couldn't eat good food and be a vegetarian, I wouldn't be one.

Because the silage they are fed is not considered high enough quality to be used for human consumption. Most of the "silage" which is fed to cows and other livestock is byproducts of the human grain production industry. And cattle are only really fed silage in the last phase of their lives - the feedlotting - most will be grown for the majority of their time on grassland. You wanna cut the middle man and go eat that too?

 

[animalrights]

Well animalrights, you provoked my thoughts, yet refuse to respond to my inquiry. Lets try again:

Why do you distinguish humans from all other species of carnivores and omnivores in citing that our dietary practices must somehow transcend the natural order of things. Do you deprive your pets meat in their diets in the name of animal welfare? Do you think we need to intervene and stop other carnivores from killing and consuming prey? After all, sitting by and idly witnessing such acts is just as bad as doing it ourselves, no?

Sorry about that, I guess I've been busy.
The natural order of things.. interesting. We're omnivores, correct? We can eat meat and plants, we NEED plants but we don't necessarily need meat. If, hypothetically, humans were still living in the natural world (which, I think we're not since the general public generally doesn't know where their food comes from) then they would be hunter gatherers I suppose. To me there is nothing wrong with that. But we HAVE transcended the natural order of things: we can fly, we live older than what our bodies allow us, and we genetically modify our food. None of that is natural. I don't agree with concentrated animal feedlot operations, and therefore I don't support them by purchasing their products. If I wanted to eat meat, I'd go out and hunt it.. but at this point I'm happy with what I've got. I don't think there is anything wrong with eating meat, I'm just against the exploitation of animals for their products.

My dog eats meat because that's the diet that the vet put him on, and I haven't looked into canine nutrition enough to feel confident that a vegetarian diet is suitable for him. He also has a wheat allergy. If I had a cat, I would make sure there was meat in his/her diet, and when possible I would buy meat locally.

Since the evolution of herbivores, carnivores have evolved to fit a niche. It drives evolution through natural selection and I think it's a beautiful thing. It's necessary for their survival, and it keeps the levels of prey down so that they don't exhaust their resources and die out themselves. The natural system worked pretty well before we got involved.

 

[badcats]

If i'm coming across like I'm taking ANY of this personally, it's only when my comments are being criticized due to semantics, like the difference between animal welfare and rights. Other than that, none of this I am taking personally.

I am not trying to attack you so calm yourself but if you think the difference in animal rights and welfare is semantics you had best look into it further. There is a large difference in philosophies. The end game is different for each view, with animal welfare saying "use of animals by humans is perfectly acceptable as long as the animals do not unnecessarily suffer and we plan to continue learning how we can minimize that suffering" and animal rights saying "we support animal welfare only until we can convince everybody that human use of animals for any purpose is wrong"
As a heads up, the difference between the two is a big issue in veterinary medicine, so much so that some schools ask you what the difference between the two is in your admissions interview.

 

[animalrights]

Honestly, global vegetarianism will never happen, as there is not sufficient land to grow suitable amounts of crops/vegetables to feed everyone. The majority of the worlds terrestrial surface is suited for grazing, no other type of farming.

Good point. I think, though, that agricultural practices in North America need to be stricter, especially in regards to concentrated animal feedlot ops. I think we need to lower our meat consumption and/or try to purchase locally if possible. This would hopefully decrease agricultural run-off into fresh-water sources as well as methane emissions. And the less animals we produce, the more fields, which have the capacity to grow vegetables, that can be used for human consumption. I think the key is to eat as low as you can on the food chain, and when you can't to consume sparingly.

 

[animalrights]

Because the silage they are fed is not considered high enough quality to be used for human consumption. Most of the "silage" which is fed to cows and other livestock is byproducts of the human grain production industry. And cattle are only really fed silage in the last phase of their lives - the feedlotting - most will be grown for the majority of their time on grassland. You wanna cut the middle man and go eat that too?

I don't know, I've seen it and it looks just like corn to me. So do the soybeans.. all of the farmers I've worked with grow their own corn, soybeans, and wheat to feed to the cows, along with hay. And dairy cows are fed silage until they are sent out to pasture, so most of their lives are spent eating silage, and a lot of it. Cattle (for beef) may be different.. but where I'm from dairy farming is a bigger industry than beef.

 

[animalrights]

I am not trying to attack you so calm yourself but if you think the difference in animal rights and welfare is semantics you had best look into it further. There is a large difference in philosophies. The end game is different for each view, with animal welfare saying "use of animals by humans is perfectly acceptable as long as the animals do not unnecessarily suffer and we plan to continue learning how we can minimize that suffering" and animal rights saying "we support animal welfare only until we can convince everybody that human use of animals for any purpose is wrong"
As a heads up, the difference between the two is a big issue in veterinary medicine, so much so that some schools ask you what the difference between the two is in your admissions interview.

What I meant to say was that I was getting attacked by semantics, and the argument that I didn't know the difference between animal rights and animal welfare. And I don't think the difference is semantics, in case you were wondering. I should edit a little more before posting to avoid unnecessary arguments..

 

[dgm]

I don't know, I've seen it and it looks just like corn to me. So do the soybeans.. all of the farmers I've worked with grow their own corn, soybeans, and wheat to feed to the cows, along with hay. And dairy cows are fed silage until they are sent out to pasture, so most of their lives are spent eating silage, and a lot of it. Cattle (for beef) may be different.. but where I'm from dairy farming is a bigger industry than beef.

I've never eaten the corn husk, stalk, or cob, and am not likely to start. Cows, on the other hand, do...

 

[August West]

I do not want to get into a discussion about consumerism and the excessive food consumption and manufacturing of Americans. I just want to point out that the premise of your argument is that eating meat is somehow an inferior and inhumane lifestyle. Humans are, and will always be, living in the natural world - despite your claim otherwise. We have evolved in a way that our cognitive abilities have afforded technological advancements that afford us the ability to do things such as fly in airplanes, live longer and bio-genetically alter our food supply. But we can never escape the natural order of this and this in itself will dictate whether or not our behaviors and decisions are conducive to your livelihood and survival.

It is great that you are satisfied with your own dietary choices. However, I must say that you do come of as self-righteous in many of your posts here. I think you need to fine-tune your concerns and express yourself without having to create the impression that your are criticizing others for their own beliefs. You say you are against the "exploitation of animals" but you do not specify what this means. Are all people that eat meat exploiting animals? Are all people that eat meat that is produced by a slaughterhouse exploiting animals?

"My dog eats meat because that's the diet that the vet put him on, and I haven't looked into canine nutrition enough to feel confident that a vegetarian diet is suitable for him. He also has a wheat allergy. If I had a cat, I would make sure there was meat in his/her diet, and when possible I would buy meat locally."

So, again, it seems that you feel that humans should be the exception to nature and that embracing a vegan diet is somehow more advanced and enlightened than the behaviors of meat-eating humans. With this perspective as the premise of your assertions, I guarantee that you are bound to offend other individuals by deeming them and inhumane, thoughtless and less developed.

"The natural system worked pretty well before we got involved."

Again, there is no way to transcend the natural system. You attempt to separate humans from this system, which I believe is an inherent flaw of many humans. Unless you are looking to get into a discussion on existentialism and religion, it might be best to just accept that we all make our own decisions regarding what we feel comfortable with. Search your heart and mind and decide what type of lifestyle is best for you. But looking to others for such a personal endeavor seems more like an opportunity to stir the pot than a sincere attempt to provoke thought. Good luck.

 

[animalrights]

It is great that you are satisfied with your own dietary choices. However, I must say that you do come of as self-righteous in many of your posts here. I think you need to fine-tune your concerns and express yourself without having to create the impression that your are criticizing others for their own beliefs. You say you are against the "exploitation of animals" but you do not specify what this means. Are all people that eat meat exploiting animals? Are all people that eat meat that is produced by a slaughterhouse exploiting animals?

I don't mean to come off as self-righteous, but if I have I certainly haven't been the only one. I just have a strong opinion, as do many others on this forum.

By exploiting I mean using animals for their products, harbouring them in sometimes unnatural environments in order to benefit from their secretions/hide. I don't think that people who eat meat are exploiting animals, I think that the meat/dairy industry exploits them. By purchasing meat you support the industry. I'm against this exploitation, but that's my opinion, and I'm sure you have your own.

So, again, it seems that you feel that humans should be the exception to nature and that embracing a vegan diet is somehow more advanced and enlightened than the behaviors of meat-eating humans. With this perspective as the premise of your assertions, I guarantee that you are bound to offend other individuals by deeming them and inhumane, thoughtless and less developed.

"The natural system worked pretty well before we got involved."

Again, there is no way to transcend the natural system. You attempt to separate humans from this system, which I believe is an inherent flaw of many humans. Unless you are looking to get into a discussion on existentialism and religion, it might be best to just accept that we all make our own decisions regarding what we feel comfortable with. Search your heart and mind and decide what type of lifestyle is best for you. But looking to others for such a personal endeavor seems more like an opportunity to stir the pot than a sincere attempt to provoke thought. Good luck.

No, I don't think I'm more "enlightened" because of what I choose not to consume. If you read anything of what I've written is that I think people should consume as low as possible on the food chain, for their health, the environment, and to minimize suffering.

What I mean by us transcending the natural system is that we screwed it all up. Humans have a long history of exhausting resources and not coming up with a solution until it's too late. Look at the history of the cod fishery in Newfoundland. Of course other predator and prey populations have drove species to extinction in the past, but not to the degree that humans have.

it might be best to just accept that we all make our own decisions regarding what we feel comfortable with

I think a lot of people find it hard to accept that some people aren't comfortable consuming animals, or that they may hold strong convictions against it.

 

[August West]

By exploiting I mean using animals for their products, harbouring them in sometimes unnatural environments in order to benefit from their secretions/hide. I don't think that people who eat meat are exploiting animals, I think that the meat/dairy industry exploits them. By purchasing meat you support the industry. I'm against this exploitation, but that's my opinion, and I'm sure you have your own.

So which is it? Is using animals for their products exploiting them? Or just when we use their products while harboring them in unnatural environments? If the conditions were better and deemed more natural, would you still have such a problem with this relationship?

No, I don't think I'm more "enlightened" because of what I choose not to consume. If you read anything of what I've written is that I think people should consume as low as possible on the food chain, for their health, the environment, and to minimize suffering.

What I mean by us transcending the natural system is that we screwed it all up. Humans have a long history of exhausting resources and not coming up with a solution until it's too late. Look at the history of the cod fishery in Newfoundland. Of course other predator and prey populations have drove species to extinction in the past, but not to the degree that humans have.

I agree with much of what you are saying here. However, I do not see how this applies to one's decision on whether or not we choose to continue eating meat and how such decisions can be reconciled by those in the veterinary field. You seem to want to straddle the fence between saying that we should not eat meat if we care about animals and that it is alright to eat meat so long as the animals are respected and treated accordingly. And I have yet to hear of any livestock animals being driven to extinction due to human consumption. In fact, I find it quite to the contrary and I'm somewhat appalled by how much we waste and consume, especially in America, above what we really need. We have embrace over-population and factory farming production on enormous scales in the name of consumerism. It is not a flaw that stems from our omnivorous nature, though. It is something much more complex and unique to the human species than that.

I think a lot of people find it hard to accept that some people aren't comfortable consuming animals, or that they may hold strong convictions against it.

To each their own... not sure why you would care what others felt about your own personal decisions.

 

[dyachei]

Just wanted to make a note about the quality of proteins. Animal proteins are much higher quality than most plant-based proteins. This is important in pet food nutrition, as well. Essentially, even in omnivores, it is easier for us to digest and use animal proteins.

Believe what you want, I have been accosted by a vegan with, "How can you want to be a vet if you eat meat?" Personally, I like to eat meat and really don't have a problem with people that want to be vegetarians/vegans, but I find comments like that offensive.

One thought that keeps popping up in my mind as I have read this thread is that there are a lot of potential diseases with ANY unbalanced diet (not limited to scurvy, anemia, etc.). Also, maybe I'm way off base here, but animalrights, you seem to be basing a lot of your arguments on 1 vet that acts a certain way. Yet, you also have said that other vets were fine. So why would you assume that the 1 vet is going to be the way things are? In my experience, most farmers (dairy or otherwise) are pretty concerned with the well-being of their animals. Any disease eats into their profits and it is in their best interest to keep their animals healthy and uninjured.

 

[Pointer1330]

I can't remember the exact numbers, but I read somewhere that Americans typically consume 12% of their daily calories in protein, and the recommended intake is around 5-7%. Too much protein can lead to a number of health problems. Osteoporosis for one. And Americans tend to suffer from diseases of excess, rather than deficiencies. But I didn't become a vegetarian for health reasons, although it was a nice bonus.

.

Our (Americans) RDA of protein is 10-15%. I would agree that many Americans are consuming too much protein, but the problem is mostly due to a sedentary lifestyle and not too much protein. If you're talking about health, I will argue all day that someone who is active doing aroebic exercise along with any type of muscle work, they need that much protein (along with exercise nutrition experts). I do know that if you want to take "healthy" people and compare them, that any day of the week a vegan triathlete will not be as healthy or perform as well as a triathlete that eats lean meats along with grains and vegtables. This of course is an abstract example, but my point is that if you want to compare overall health of an individual, you must look at both diet and exercise. If you're exercising to be in better physical shape, you're going to be a lot better off getting some of your protein from meat. Of course, if you sit on the couch and watch tv all day, it probably doesn't matter if you live off of steamed soybeans.

 

[shortnsweet]

But you have to admit that we are exploiting cows for their milk, and it does result in more illness than if they were producing milk naturally for their calves (without the high-energy feed, crowding, and constant contact with manure).

I don't think I can admit to the fact we are "exploiting" the cows. Does it cause more illness?? I am very much a "let's go by the numbers" person...so prove to me that is causes more illness and I will consider it. Some of those farms are extremely sterile, and many farmers take extra precautions to keep their entire stock safe and clean. Vaccinations and supplements only benefit the cow. Another issue up for debate is a lot of breeds have been genetically bred to produce more milk in the past 40 years...but doesn't that benefit the calf, the cow, and people who drink milk?

As for the whole protein thing.. to be honest I haven't heard that argument in awhile. To keep it short, yes of course there is more protein in meat. Does more necessarily mean better? Not in my opinion, no. I can't remember the exact numbers, but I read somewhere that Americans typically consume 12% of their daily calories in protein, and the recommended intake is around 5-7%. Too much protein can lead to a number of health problems. Osteoporosis for one. And Americans tend to suffer from diseases of excess, rather than deficiencies. But I didn't become a vegetarian for health reasons, although it was a nice bonus.

Again, check your facts first...we're all science majors here...data people!!! *It was speculated a number of years ago that osteoporosis was caused by too much protein* Recent research from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition: Studies done many years ago suggested that eating a lot of protein increases calcium loss in the urine and therefore it was thought that eating protein weakens bones by taking calcium out of them. However, recent studies show that eating protein increases calcium absorption so the extra calcium in the urine comes from increased absorption, not from being take out of bones. Reports in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (Volume 78, Issue 3, 2003) show that eating plenty of protein and lots of foods from plants helps to keep bones strong. Most scientists now feel that a very low-protein diet can cause osteoporosis, while a moderately high-protein diet may help to prevent it.
April 2, 2006


So in summary...eat some calcium and you'll be fine!!

 

[Perfbird]

Everyone on here is either in veterinary school already, or is pre-vet and therefore we all care about animals. We are all entitled to our opinions, but that doesn't mean you have to insult people when they are simply answering the question you asked

Yes, this. We all have our opinions, and we've been sharing them with you in a nice, discussion/debate like way. Yet I feel you're throwing in insulting snide comments every once in a while, such as your comment to me (which I noticed you have not chosen to respond to). I haven't seen anyone "attack" you as you claim, and I haven't seen anyone feel threatened by your "open-mindedness". I think you may be getting a bit too defensive, or maybe it's just the tone of your activism that comes across as being brutish. It's not threatening, just rude, really.

There is a huge difference between animal welfare and animal rights, there is a huge range of possibilities within the term "overhunting", and you keep switching between arguing the meat industry and dairy industry (which are two completely independent, vastly different companies), and are refuting people by telling them you're not arguing about that one. I'm beginning to think you're some PETA troll who just wants to throw out hot topic buzz words to a intelligent group of opinionated people just to get an inflammatory response.

 

[Sophie10]

lol "The Butcher" is on Modern Marvels on the History channel right now if anyone's interested... I'm curious enough to watch

OMG I love Modern Marvels. I can't believe I missed it! Have you seen the one on the horse? It has a really cool section on racehorse medicine!!

 

[jpeterman13]

I'm beginning to think you're some PETA troll who just wants to throw out hot topic buzz words to a intelligent group of opinionated people just to get an inflammatory response.

that's kind of what I've thought since post #1.

 

[VeganSoprano]

Well animalrights, you provoked my thoughts, yet refuse to respond to my inquiry. Lets try again:

Why do you distinguish humans from all other species of carnivores and omnivores in citing that our dietary practices must somehow transcend the natural order of things. Do you deprive your pets meat in their diets in the name of animal welfare? Do you think we need to intervene and stop other carnivores from killing and consuming prey? After all, sitting by and idly witnessing such acts is just as bad as doing it ourselves, no?

My response would be twofold. First, we are biologically able to make choices. Humans can thrive without eating animals. A cat, for instance, cannot. Second, we are have choices because of our cognitive abilities. Those of us who live in developed countries can go to the grocery store and choose whatever we want to eat. The ability to make these choices means there is a moral element to the choices we make. I personally don't eat meat because there is no way I could actually take the life of another creature just so I can eat him when there are so many other things I can choose to eat instead.

 

[PigsRock]

Can't you all see you are never going to change animalrights' mind?

Anyway, I do want to thank animalrights for livening up the forum... It was getting depressing with all the threads about waiting for interviews!!!

 

[DVMDream]

As for the whole protein thing.. to be honest I haven't heard that argument in awhile. To keep it short, yes of course there is more protein in meat. Does more necessarily mean better?

Actually, it is. The protein in meats contains all of the essential amino acids needed in the human diet. The protein in plants like grains, legumes, nuts and seeds do not contain all of the necessary amino acids. Found from here: http://www.iabeef.org/Docs/proteins%20not%20created%20equal.pdf

This also describes other important sources from meat such as the type of iron (heme vs nonheme). It also shows a calorie break down. This break down explains how many calories of each food item you would have to consume to get 25g of protein. Lean meat has the lowest calories.

As for your argument of meat causing cancer, apparently so does my cell phone, microwave, the paint on my walls and basically anything else I touch. Apparently, everything can cause cancer now and I highly doubt the first thing a doctor tells someone who has cancer is that they shouldn’t have eaten meat because it is not a very likely or probable cause for getting cancer. http://www.iabeef.org/Docs/proteins not created equal.pdf

I'm beginning to think you're some PETA troll who just wants to throw out hot topic buzz words to a intelligent group of opinionated people just to get an inflammatory response.

:troll:

 

[August West]

My response would be twofold. First, we are biologically able to make choices. Humans can thrive without eating animals. A cat, for instance, cannot. Second, we are have choices because of our cognitive abilities. Those of us who live in developed countries can go to the grocery store and choose whatever we want to eat. The ability to make these choices means there is a moral element to the choices we make. I personally don't eat meat because there is no way I could actually take the life of another creature just so I can eat him when there are so many other things I can choose to eat instead.

Again, you are basing your statement on the opinion that it is morally superior position for humans to no longer consume meat. This would logically lead to the premise that you believe that all other animals might also someday be capable of developing such capabilities. As if that is the endgame of all evolution. A world in which all living things could exist alongside of one another with the need of a consumer food cycle. First of all, there would be no need for cows and other livestock to even exist. They would no longer be bred and would quickly die out in the wilderness. Then we would go into a period of population control as the numbers of animals would exponentially multiply and fill the earth. Symbiotic relationships would fade away as animals, including humans, strive to live safely in isolation away from the other creatures. Really, what type of enlightened world would this be?

Or do you prefer to think of humans as completely separate from all other living things. I suppose this is where religion comes into play. That we were put here to make the earth and it's creature our dominion. Personally, my philosophy towards such things is that we are all animals that evolved from the same organic source and all live in a manner dictated by a natural order. I think that the further we try to remove ourselves from this model, the more trouble we get ourselves in. When adhered to in the natural world, the model has worked flawlessly. However the more we attempt to place ourselves outside of this system, the more damage we wind up inflicting. So eat meat. Don't eat meat. That is a personal choice. But claiming the moral high ground for choosing either is not a natural proclivity, but an attempt to be Godly.

 

[August West]

Can't you all see you are never going to change animalrights' mind?

Anyway, I do want to thank animalrights for livening up the forum... It was getting depressing with all the threads about waiting for interviews!!!

Good point. It was clearly enough to bring me to finally post after lurking here for the past year.

 

[animalrights]

So which is it? Is using animals for their products exploiting them? Or just when we use their products while harboring them in unnatural environments? If the conditions were better and deemed more natural, would you still have such a problem with this relationship?

I think breeding animals in captivity and keeping them alive for the sole purpose of eating them once their grown is exploiting them. But I've visited a few dairies where the conditions are great, and I don't have any issue in their welfare in that sense. It's really the difference between rights ad welfare. I've been against the exploitation, and upon seeing cows living in good conditions I felt more "ok" with that form of exploitation. It wasn't until I saw a few dairies that had substandard (in my mind) conditions that I wasn't sure where I stood on the issue.

You seem to want to straddle the fence between saying that we should not eat meat if we care about animals and that it is alright to eat meat so long as the animals are respected and treated accordingly.

I know, I'm all over the place. I think it's because a lot of people are questioning vegetarianism, and I'm basically giving my opinion on the matter. What you eat is personal but you can't deny that it affects your impact on the world, just like any kind of consumption. I definitely agree with you about how we embrace development and increasing population. Factory farms allow us to live in cities and still eat whatever we want. It's all about consumption, the more you have the more you're encouraged to consume.

 

[animalrights]

I don't think I can admit to the fact we are "exploiting" the cows. Does it cause more illness?? I am very much a "let's go by the numbers" person...so prove to me that is causes more illness and I will consider it. Some of those farms are extremely sterile, and many farmers take extra precautions to keep their entire stock safe and clean. Vaccinations and supplements only benefit the cow. Another issue up for debate is a lot of breeds have been genetically bred to produce more milk in the past 40 years...but doesn't that benefit the calf, the cow, and people who drink milk?

I'm just going by what the farmer's have told me, and that contact with feces on the teets increases the liklihood of infection. Logically speaking, if they weren't in or around a barn where there is a lot of fecal matter, wouldn't they have less contact and therefore less infection? Also in one farm I saw a lot of cases of infection in the uterus (maybe?) after calving, and I was told it could be regulated with nutrition.

Reports in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (Volume 78, Issue 3, 2003) show that eating plenty of protein and lots of foods from plants helps to keep bones strong. Most scientists now feel that a very low-protein diet can cause osteoporosis, while a moderately high-protein diet may help to prevent it.

Hm, that's news to me! What's healthy and what's not seems to be ever-changing.. you don't have to eat meat to get enough protein though. Gotta love those beans! Mm I'm going to have some right now...

 

[quantized]

I just read all this and now all I want is some delicious Trader Joe's applewood smoked bacon. Dinner is gonna be awesome.

lol @ this thread