ethics

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girlspowerss

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a girl goes to the dermatologist for acne problems and shes also a smoker... and the dermatologist says if she stops smoking her acne will go away... in truth, the dermatologist lied about that just to get her to stop smoking... all she really needed was prescription medicine for her acne... so she really didnt have to stop smoking for her acne to go away.... was what the dermatologist did ethical? why or why not?
(the dermatologists intentions were to get her to stop smoking, the patient did not need to stop smoking for her acne to go away)
 
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If the dermatologist was trying to lie to her just to get her to quit smoking, it was unethical. I don't see a dilemma here...
 
Smoking is notoriously bad for your skin, so technically he was giving you sound advice.
 
Couldn't smoking contribute to acne because it restricts blood flow and decreases the efficiency of removing waste and dead cells?

I don't think it's unethical for the dermatologist to teach her about the detrimental effects of smoking on her skin (quite the opposite), but if he refuses to prescribe her oral or topical medication simply because he doesn't agree with her habits, that is unethical.

"All she really needed was prescription medicine to clear her acne"... yeah I completely disagree with that. Prescription medications aren't sufficient alone. Her lifestyle--> habits, hygiene, etc. play a huge role in her skin's health.
 
Couldn't smoking contribute to acne because it restricts blood flow and decreases the efficiency of removing waste and dead cells?

I don't think it's unethical for the dermatologist to teach her about the detrimental effects of smoking on her skin (quite the opposite), but if he refuses to prescribe her oral or topical medication simply because he doesn't agree with her habits, that is unethical.

"All she really needed was prescription medicine to clear her acne"... yeah I completely disagree with that. Prescription medications aren't sufficient alone. Her lifestyle--> habits, hygiene, etc. play a huge role in her skin's health.

This.

Dermatologists will always tell you to change your diet and other habits that are probably a contributing factor. Prescription meds should be the last resort.
 
This.

Dermatologists will always tell you to change your diet and other habits that are probably a contributing factor. Prescription meds should be the last resort.

Yea it seems like everyone just wants a pill to make things better when a lot of times you can make lifestyle changes that'll have a bigger impact and no side effects. 🙂
 
This.

Dermatologists will always tell you to change your diet and other habits that are probably a contributing factor. Prescription meds should be the last resort.

Thats actually not true at all. Depending on the severity they may recommend anything from just washing your face and applying an OTC cream to right away prescribing something, although the more aggressive treatments that have major side effects like accutane would probably be prescribed only after antibiotics/other prescription creams haven't worked.
 
By the way, if I am understanding the OP's question, the ethical dilemma being referred to is whether or not a physician could/should lie to get a patient to change a bad habit. The answer here is that it is unethical (as someone posted before me) to lie if the habit you want them to stop has nothing to do with the medical problem they're having. As a physician a patient may always being willing to listen to you about how they can change bad habits such as smoking, drinking eating poorly etc, but that should remain separate from the medical problem at hand as long as there is no apparent relationship.
 
Though your patient may come in complaining about one thing, it's good medicine to try to treat all of your patient's conditions if you can. If your patient came in with headaches and you found hypertension, would you give them Tylenol or something to control the hypertension?

This patient is presenting both with acne and with a tobacco addiction, both of which are medical conditions that the physician should be interested in treating. I don't think it's unethical to promote smoking cessation under any circumstance. I would have an issue with a physician who chose to either give acne meds and not suggest smoking cessation, or promote smoking cessation without treating acne (unless smoking cessation was as effective and convenient as the other options.)

So while I'd say it's not unethical, I think it's not in the patient's best interest simply to say "Stop smoking," which is very difficult to do, without treating the symptoms immediately. I think the patient/physician relationship is very important, and that kind of stand-offish attitude is not healthy for that relationship.
 
a girl goes to the dermatologist for acne problems and shes also a smoker... and the dermatologist says if she stops smoking her acne will go away... in truth, the dermatologist lied about that just to get her to stop smoking... all she really needed was prescription medicine for her acne... so she really didnt have to stop smoking for her acne to go away.... was what the dermatologist did ethical? why or why not?

Since smoking may be a contributing factor it isn't inherently unethical, however if the dermatologist does it irrespective of its possible contribution it is unethical as it violates autonomy. It depends on how you view this case and whether you consider this to be an issue of beneficence or of autonomy.
 
People, the OP clearly stated the doctor LIED to the patient just to get them to quit smoking. Whether the OP was correct in how quitting smoking would help the acne or not, it was clear the OPs intent was to discuss lying to patients because the "ends justifies the means." That is not ethical behavior. Doctors can not lie to their patients to get them to do what they want.
 
People, the OP clearly stated the doctor LIED to the patient just to get them to quit smoking. Whether the OP was correct in how quitting smoking would help the acne or not, it was clear the OPs intent was to discuss lying to patients because the "ends justifies the means." That is not ethical behavior. Doctors can not lie to their patients to get them to do what they want.


👍 Exactly. As written by the original poster (stating that the physician lied), this is unethical by standards here in the US. It is a violation of the patient’s autonomy and, by extension, impairs his or her ability to make a truly informed decision. The physician was being deceitful regardless of whether or not the information was accurate. If the original post was more vague then maybe there would be room for debate, but the wording pretty much removes the grey area and makes this clearly unethical.

-senior medical student (24 days left)
 
if the doctor himself believes that there is a causal relationship between skin problems and smoking, then yes, he can offer his opinion that the pt should stop smoking.

Saying that if she stops smoking her acne will disappear seems a bit too absolute. I believe it could be worded a little better as: 'if you stop smoking, I believe you will see an improvement'

But If the doctor did not believe that smoking can causes acne and was just telling the pt. to stop smoking because the habit itself is very unhealthy, then yes perhaps it is unethical for the doctor to use smoking as an excuse for skin problems (if he does not believe it to be true). He could always express that smoking is unhealthy in other terms
 
OP, this is actually a very interesting ethical question (people don't seem to be giving it fair credit on here). Until fairly recently (~30-50 years ago), paternalism was the only standard of medicine and the idea of informed consent and patient autonomy wasn't really on people's radar. Lying to a patient to get them to do what is best for them was totally standard and most doctors would have found it perfectly reasonable.

Now there is more of a trend toward individual autonomy being more important than what is "best" for the patient, but you can certainly find people who still disagree. I think you could make an interesting case either way. I agree with the autonomy side of things, but playing devil's advocate, here's what I'd say.

If the patient (I am assuming teenager) doesn't seem to be very well informed (ie, unlikely she will look up the information via other sources, find your were lying, and subsequently lose her trust in you), you are giving her a strong motivation for quitting smoking at a pivotal point in her life when it wouldn't be *too* difficult. It is quite likely that, being a teenager, her acne will soon go away on its own, and it's much preferable for her to enter adulthood NOT addicted to smoking.

It is important to remember that what is legal, what is ethical, and what as an individual physician you should choose to do are often different.
 
OP, this is actually a very interesting ethical question (people don't seem to be giving it fair credit on here). Until fairly recently (~30-50 years ago), paternalism was the only standard of medicine and the idea of informed consent and patient autonomy wasn't really on people's radar. Lying to a patient to get them to do what is best for them was totally standard and most doctors would have found it perfectly reasonable.

Now there is more of a trend toward individual autonomy being more important than what is "best" for the patient, but you can certainly find people who still disagree. I think you could make an interesting case either way. I agree with the autonomy side of things, but playing devil's advocate, here's what I'd say.

If the patient (I am assuming teenager) doesn't seem to be very well informed (ie, unlikely she will look up the information via other sources, find your were lying, and subsequently lose her trust in you), you are giving her a strong motivation for quitting smoking at a pivotal point in her life when it wouldn't be *too* difficult. It is quite likely that, being a teenager, her acne will soon go away on its own, and it's much preferable for her to enter adulthood NOT addicted to smoking.

It is important to remember that what is legal, what is ethical, and what as an individual physician you should choose to do are often different.

No one is denying the history of medicine (the good and the bad), it just isn't relevant here. Lying to the patient is still lying regardless of whether or not the patient knows you are lying to them. Don't get me wrong, smoking is a nasty habit with negative long term health consequences, but what is proposed in the original post (in decent detail) is unethical by standards utilized here in the US.

There are other things to consider. Once you convince yourself that there is an acceptable reason to lie to a patient, you start to walk down a slippery slope. It seems reasonable that in this example most (if not all) of us would agree that smoking is not good for your health. However, what happens if you come to another reason where you think lying is justifiable, but this reason is not shared by the rest of the medical community. This can be dangerous on hot topics like contraception, both legally and ethically (not to mention it is not fair to the patient). In addition, once this deceit is uncovered, there can be long lasting consequences of this dishonesty. For example (on a much larger scale of course), generations of Black American's do not trust the American healthcare system for what happened in the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. It has been nearly 40 years since this study ended and greater than 30 years since the Belmont Report was released, and African American health in the south is still feeling the effects.

For these plus other reasons, it is generally accepted that there is very rarely a valid reason to lie to a decisional patient about care options.


For those of you who still have to take medical ethics, most of it is just talking in circles for hours, but there are key principals that you should take away; one of which is not lying to patients.
 
No one is denying the history of medicine (the good and the bad), it just isn't relevant here. Lying to the patient is still lying regardless of whether or not the patient knows you are lying to them. Don't get me wrong, smoking is a nasty habit with negative long term health consequences, but what is proposed in the original post (in decent detail) is unethical by standards utilized here in the US.

There are other things to consider. Once you convince yourself that there is an acceptable reason to lie to a patient, you start to walk down a slippery slope. It seems reasonable that in this example most (if not all) of us would agree that smoking is not good for your health. However, what happens if you come to another reason where you think lying is justifiable, but this reason is not shared by the rest of the medical community. This can be dangerous on hot topics like contraception, both legally and ethically (not to mention it is not fair to the patient). In addition, once this deceit is uncovered, there can be long lasting consequences of this dishonesty. For example (on a much larger scale of course), generations of Black American's do not trust the American healthcare system for what happened in the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. It has been nearly 40 years since this study ended and greater than 30 years since the Belmont Report was released, and African American health in the south is still feeling the effects.

For these plus other reasons, it is generally accepted that there is very rarely a valid reason to lie to a decisional patient about care options.


For those of you who still have to take medical ethics, most of it is just talking in circles for hours, but there are key principals that you should take away; one of which is not lying to patients.

I agree with you 🙂 I just think that if you're a pre-med potentially facing ethics questions in interviews, it's important to show that you can consider both sides of the issue.
 
I agree with you 🙂 I just think that if you're a pre-med potentially facing ethics questions in interviews, it's important to show that you can consider both sides of the issue.

Most definitely. On a side note, any interviewer who asks ethical questions during an interview looking for specific answers is a bad interviewer (at least in that context). It is unreasonable to expect applicants to answer questions about medical ethics, since most lack substantial experience with ethics and substantial experience with medicine (first hand experience providing care). In answering these questions, it is best to always be honest and always act in the best interest of the patient; do this and you'll almost never go wrong.

Good luck all.

-admissions committee interviewer / senior med student
 
Though your patient may come in complaining about one thing, it's good medicine to try to treat all of your patient's conditions if you can. If your patient came in with headaches and you found hypertension, would you give them Tylenol or something to control the hypertension?

This patient is presenting both with acne and with a tobacco addiction, both of which are medical conditions that the physician should be interested in treating. I don't think it's unethical to promote smoking cessation under any circumstance. I would have an issue with a physician who chose to either give acne meds and not suggest smoking cessation, or promote smoking cessation without treating acne (unless smoking cessation was as effective and convenient as the other options.)

So while I'd say it's not unethical, I think it's not in the patient's best interest simply to say "Stop smoking," which is very difficult to do, without treating the symptoms immediately. I think the patient/physician relationship is very important, and that kind of stand-offish attitude is not healthy for that relationship.
👍 Great post
 
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