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Europe/Aus vs. New school

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Maruko, Aug 2, 2015.

  1. Maruko

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    #1 Maruko, Aug 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  2. allantois

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    Name the schools.
     
  3. ATL.F.Doc

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    No schools are eligible for loans in the UK, only one school in Aus.
     
  4. Doudline

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    Probably not what you want to hear but: improve your app and reapply later.

    Either of your current options sounds disastrous.
     
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  5. IlDestriero

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    Don't go to school abroad unless you plan to stay there. Australia wouldn't be a bad place to spend a career, though there's an awful lot of lethal creatures in the land down under...
    What school is over $100k a year?
    It looks like we have a new high score.
     
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  6. Maruko

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    #6 Maruko, Aug 2, 2015
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
  7. Lawper

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    I would actually go to a UK or Australian medical school over the DO school, simply because, as you mentioned, it's a much more respected and reputable. Yes you'll be an IMG when matching back to US, but you'll have a much more substantial advantage than IMGs at Caribbean/shady foreign schools. It's a better alternative than attending an unaccredited US medical school.

    But i'm curious for any residents/attendings here. Will a UK/Aus/Canada educated IMG have a comparable advantage to an FMG from the same areas? Or actually far less because of the IMG factor holding back?
     
  8. ATL.F.Doc

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    IMG is IMG, school reputation does not play role/ advances applicant when it comes to applying to US residency, we all know that.

    I will go DO with no doubt, simply because, it is US medical school.

    OP, bottom line, if you want to practice in the US go to US medical school.
     
  9. Spector1

    Spector1 Orbis non Sufficit
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    is it LECOM?
     
  10. Maruko

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    No, LECOM isn't a new unaccredited school, duh.

    I know school reputation doesn't matter when you're an IMG grad (unless it's Oxford, maybe). My dilemma is $200k private loans vs. chances of residency... The dilemma is about whether I can repay my loans while supporting my family once I'm out of med school if I choose an unaccredited school that isn't eligible for fed loans in the first 2 years... I think accreditation itself isn't a problem bc no med school has failed to get accredited so far, and even if it doesn't, its students will be transfered to another school... Yeah so the end problem for me is private loans....
     
  11. ATL.F.Doc

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    do you mind sharing the school? is it in the US?. have you looked at sallie mae, they allow deferment.
     
  12. Winged Scapula

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    This is inaccurate.
     
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  13. Goro

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    OP is probably referring to BCOM or LUCOM.

    Maruko, do you want to be a doctor? Then go to the DO school.



     
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  14. Maruko

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    Is it simply a matter of "if you want to practice in the US go to US medical school"...?
    afaik, private loans - besides not being qualified for income-based repayment or loan forgiveness - never go away, even if the borrower dies or becomes disabled. I would be looking toward $3000-4000/month in repayment for private loans and i can't afford that money as a resident... and i don't aim for super-competitive high-paying specialties...
     
    #14 Maruko, Aug 2, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2015
  15. ATL.F.Doc

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    You're not going to afford it when you can land residency in the US. You're not getting away from the debt that you accumulated attending med school in Europe.
    smart option is to get a loan from discover, defer payment in school/residency, pray school X gains full accreditation while you're there, and you can make repayment once you finish residency.

    Really, it is not about the school , but it is about your chances of success in the near future.Otherwise, I would have advised you to go to Sackler med school, yes, it is risky but at least you won't have to worry about landing residency.
     
  16. Stagg737

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    That's a rough situation to be in. Tbh, if I were in your shoes I'd probably pack up and go to school in Australia. I like a lot of things about Australia more than the U.S., including their healthcare system's structure. From the research I've done on their system (which includes a paper for my master's), the better schools over there are pretty solid, so you'd get a decent education. On top of that, you'd still have an okay shot at the less competitive specialties like FM and IM provided you do well on boards. If things don't work out, you could still have a great career as a physician over there.

    I say all of that because as much as I would give to be a physician, there comes a point when the debt isn't worth it. I hear about people coming out of med school with 500k+ in debt entering primary fields and I can't help but wonder if they have any clue how badly they've screwed themselves financially. I agree that if OP is dead set on staying in the U.S., she should attend school here. If she's willing to risk ending up in another country, I'd say go abroad. OP needs to ask herself how much she's willing to pay to know she'll end up in the U.S. and if that's too much, if she is willing to move to another country to be a physician.

    There are some major flaws with that plan. The first being that even if OP has perfect credit, there's exactly a 0% chance that Discover, or any credit card company for that matter, will let anyone defer a loan payment for 7+ years. This is even more true when the loan enters into 6 figures, which they would likely never give her in the first place. The only way this option is feasible is if the school gets accredited, she takes out fed loans, and then starts paying off that private loan with her gov. loan. Even then, she'd have to be able to defer for at least 2 years, and would have to live extremely meagerly to make those payments. The other huge flaw with that plan is the interest rate that comes along with loans from credit card companies. There's no way she'd find a loan that size from a credit card company with an interest rate less than 10%, and it could get as high as 15 or even 20%. OP would end up accruing a ridiculous amount of interest and would bury herself in potentially unmanageable debt.

    It's a crappy situation, but it's one of the very few times that OP may be better off going abroad provided she's willing to risk potentially having a career in Australia or the UK instead of the U.S. which honestly doesn't sound all that bad imo.
     
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  17. ATL.F.Doc

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    They state on their website that she can defer payment, and they have repayment assistance program.
    https://www.discover.com/student-loans/health-professions-loans.html#rightColumn6
     
  18. Stagg737

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    I can tell you from personal experience as well as the experience of classmates that the information on that website is not typical at all. I have near perfect credit with Discover and was told the max I could take out for one year was 25K and several of my friends were denied altogether. I'm sure others can get more or even the full amount, but my guess is that you would have to co-sign with someone that could provide significant collateral.
     
  19. Lawper

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    So if i'm understanding correctly, an IMG from a UK/Aus/Can MD school has identical (or very similar) chances of matching back into US as a Caribbean IMG? I'm surprised, but i guess this emphasizes the importance of going to a US medical school.
     
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  20. allantois

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    Do you mind sharing the two UK and three AUS schools with us?
     
  21. ATL.F.Doc

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    Yes, why do you think that majority of US medical schools do not accept international student as other countries you mentioned above.
     
  22. allantois

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    There are a variety of reasons for this, most primarily that medical education is structured very differently everywhere else (and don't get me wrong, I LOVE the US model!) and combine that with the ridiculous cost of education that foreigners would not be able to pay for.
     
  23. Lawper

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    I realize that even FMGs are at a disadvantage because residencies are familiar with US medical education system. But for US residencies to deem all IMGs to be equivalent just seem strange. I would at least expect US program directors to at least be somewhat aware of UK/Aus/Can medical education system to give some support for IMGs because it's difficult to matriculate overseas at these regions. This is opposed to Caribbean schools, where PDs know the schools are flat out terrible.

    But i guess IMG is always an IMG and will be looked the same no matter what school they attend.
     
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  24. allantois

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    Actually, if you look at the program below, they have an 90%+ residency placement rate.
    http://www.mededpath.org/residency_match.html

    I feel like SDN is not giving us the whole picture!

    There's also this school in Israel:
    http://sacklermedicine.us/match-day/
     
  25. Lawper

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  26. ATL.F.Doc

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    This school particularly falls under New york. So, yes you get to match automatically in New york only!
     
  27. ATL.F.Doc

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  28. Winged Scapula

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    Who has 100% match?
     
  29. ATL.F.Doc

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    Sorry, I should have clarified that majority of US medical schools have 100% match.

    Edit: Would you go to any of these schools if you were pre-med.?
     
  30. allantois

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    You aren't schooling a US physician on med school match? :D

    For OP specifically, the best school may be the one in Australia and not Burrell.
     
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  31. Winged Scapula

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    Actually they don't. Its high, but its not 100%. There's always someone who has to SOAP or applied unwisely.

    Its best to train in the country where you would like to practice. Failing that, training in a country where you could potentially work after graduation is next best. The doors to a US practice for those trained outside of the country are closing (although we were saying that 10 years ago, the numbers are moving closer and closer). However, if it's going to cost the OP $500K to train in the U.S., that's a mistake: either try again, go abroad or consider another field.
     
    #31 Winged Scapula, Aug 2, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
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  32. Maruko

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    UK: Edinburgh, Birmingham.
    Australia: Queensland, Sydney, Melbourne (all ranked in top 50 globally). The Mededpath program that you linked is at U of Queensland; it lets you do all rotations in the US in the last 2 years.
     
    #32 Maruko, Aug 2, 2015
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  33. Maruko

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    1/3 of UK schools don't accept internationals, either.
    The only reason is that Medicine is extremely competitive to get into nowadays.
     
  34. skinofteeth

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    I know too many people who went IMG and never got into a residency in the US ...:dead:
     
  35. Affiche

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    An important difference between the Caribbean and Aussie/UK schools is that many graduates from the Carib have a hard time matching period, while graduates from UK/Aussie have a hard time matching in the US.
     
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  36. itsogre

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    This is totally inaccurate. NYState accreditation doesn't mean much besides marketing. States don't accredit med schools. There's no "automatic matching" in any state. You're still an IMG, it's just that Sackler grads tend to match "better" due to personal connections and familiarity and preference of certain NY institutions to Sackler grads instead of other IMGs.
     
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  37. Affiche

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    I think almost every post in this thread by @ATL.F.Doc has been inaccurate, no offense.

    You can receive loans from schools in the UK. While I'm not too sure about the schools OP mentions, almost every program in Atlantic Bridge allows federal loans (http://www.atlanticbridge.com/financial-aid/usa/?context=medicine)

    IMGs are not all the same. The chances of matching back in the US may be only marginally better at a more reputable international program, but the difference is that schools in the UK/Australia can still match to residencies, they just aren't necessarily in the US.

    Discover loans are a terrible idea. Even if approved, the cap is too small to cover any meaningful expense. Further, the interest rate would be astronomical.

    100% match isn't a thing lol.

    @itsogre is correct.


    OP, I feel for you. This is a tough place to be in.
     
  38. ChrisMack390

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    OP - would you terribly mind practicing medicine in the UK or Australia (or probably New Zealand or the rest of Europe) as your career?
     
  39. allantois

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    Practicing medicine in UK is terrible. All specialists are employed by hospitals and receive a low, fixed compensation.

    http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/
     
  40. Affiche

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    They make less in the UK but typically pay less for tuition as well (this really depends on where you go to school though)
     
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  41. allantois

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    I think they can graduate with no debt or close to no debt; still a terrible pay and you have to make house calls. I would pursue dentistry if I was still in Europe :p
     
  42. Affiche

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    I would still be careful about saying it's "terrible" to practice in the UK. It's a different healthcare system for sure, but there are a lot of advantages to practicing there vs here for sure.
     
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  43. ChrisMack390

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  44. allantois

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  45. allantois

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    As for Australia, medical education is actually a big business there and they have tons of international grads that they don't need. You'd need to practice in the middle of nowhere for 10 years before government will let you live in a city. This sort of restriction on where you can live would be outright unconstitutional in the US.

    * Continuing on UK: you would never be considered "rich" as a physician there; there are just too many rich business people from all over the world living in UK.

    Anyone who reads my posts knows that I am a huge advocate of looking at Western Europe for guidance on how universal healthcare could be realized here, but I still think that being a physician is best in the US than anywhere else.

    https://gpra.org.au/understanding-the-moratorium/
     
    #45 allantois, Aug 3, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2015
  46. gonnif

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    No, thats incorrect. It simply allows students from a select set of "certified" off shore schools to complete more than 12 weeks of clinical rotations within the state of NY. The advantage of that, of course, is that students have a much easier time of networking, getting audition rotations, and generally have a more broadly accepted/respected training, and thus competitive for residency, than other off shore schools. Like any other students they can seek residencies anyplace in the US. When residency slots were not so competitive, and the US was "importing" 8,000 docs a year, graduates of these schools were more likely to get a slot than the lesser-known schools. With the number of "imported docs" dropping to 6500 this year and projected to under 3500 in 3-5 years, the math of getting a slot simply drops making the off shore pathway much more risky for any graduate to land a residency slot.



    New York List of approved off shore schools for extended clinical rotations (see http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/med/medlic.htm)
    • American University of Antigua, Antigua (June 2006)
    • American University of the Caribbean, Cupecoy, St. Martin (March 2003)
    • The Autonomous University of Guadalajara, Guadalajara, Mexico (March 2000)
    • English Language Program, University of Debrecen, Medical and Health Science Center, Medical School, Debrecen, Hungary (December 2005)
    • English Language Program, Medical University of Lublin, Lublin, Poland (September 1999)
    • English Language Program, Medical University of Silesia, Katowice, Poland (June 2000)
    • Fatima College of Medicine, Manila, Philippines (June 1988)
    • International Health and Medicine Program, Ben Gurion University of the Negrev, Beer-Sheva, Israel (February 2002)
    • Kasturba Medical College, Manipal, India (April 2005)
    • Medical University of the Americas/Nevis, Nevis, West Indies (March 2006)
    • Ross University School of Medicine, Roseau, Dominica (October 1999)
    • Saba University School of Medicine, The Bottom, Saba (August 2005)
    • St. George's University School of Medicine, St. George's, Grenada (January 1987)
    • St. Matthew's University School of Medicine, Grand Cayman, Cayman Islands (April 2004)
    • Technion Israel Institute of Technology - Technion American Medical Students Program (TEAMS), Haifa, Israel (July 2014)
     
  47. gonnif

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    I don't have any hard data at hand for this, but certainly my perception from my involvement with nontrad premeds, medical students, and residents in the NY area for 15 years now is that some of the UK, AU, and Israeli schools have a better reputation than say typical off shore. program. These schools are associated with long standing universities with strong academic programs for medicine in their home countries. Some programs, such as the The Medical School for International Health of Ben Gurion University is associated with Columbia College of Physicians and Surgeons. The Queensland program in Australia is "sponsored" by a Oschner health group of 9 hospitals in the New Orleans and does all their clinical work their. Its New York recruiting office is run by former premed and postbacc directors from schools in the New York area (unlike the sales staff of other off shore schools). A better metric than simply looking at residency success of graduates is the rate from first year matriculants to residency rate. That would show the quality of the students accepted to the program. It answers the question of "if I start this school and risk all this money, what are my chances of getting a residency slot in the US?"

    As was said previously in this thread, it is certainly better to stay in the country where you want to practice. While we dont have data on the new DO schools, overall in 2015, DO placed graduates at an overall at 99.4% rate (http://www.aacom.org/news-and-events/publications/iome/2015/june-2015/aacom-releases-2015-do-match-report). The off shore schools, no matter the quality or reputation, will suffer from the math of the residency slots available.
     
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  48. Mad Jack

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    There's piles of them that can get federal loans in the UK lol. King's College London comes to mind off the top of my head, but there's at least four or five more I could dig up quickly. When in doubt, check the international FAFSA code list.

    http://ifap.ed.gov/fedschcodelist/attachments/1516FedSchoolCodeList.pdf
     
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  49. Mad Jack

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    Given how much the match is tightening up, I'd still recommend the US school. You'll be far more screwed if you don't match and have 300k in public debt than you are matching with 300k in private debt. There is also much talk of a retroactive cap of just over 50k on PSLF, I really wouldn't count on it being there when you graduate.
     
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  50. gonnif

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    Thats what it all boils down to in the end, risking enormous money versus residency slot placement. Recommending any student for off-shore is something I just dont feel comfortable in doing any more
     
    Goro and Mad Jack like this.

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