Everybody is smart in med school.
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This is incredibly true. Yet somehow, some of them still manage to score well on exams, despite sounding completely clueless when talking about anything except the new Prada store. I'm actually a bit disappointed in the quality of students in medical school, and not just mine -- in general med students are good at memorizing things and bad at pretty much everything else.
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Thats funny. Ive experienced the exact opposite. Everyone ive encountered is really really dumb and cant even hold their bladder through rounds half the time.
Let's put it this way. Most people who get into US allo med schools have gotten mostly A's in undergrad. Most have been in the top chunk of their undergrad class. Yet when they get to med school half are going to be in the bottom half of the class. About half will be scoring below average on the tests. So yeah, a lot of people are going to be in shock. Saw lots of this in first year.
Not much of one, other than more material to study. Definitely not any harder as far as concepts or anything. Really a lot of this stuff needn't be taught at the med school level, but how would they pay for all the useless administrators if they only charged undergrad prices? 😕
As far as classmates...everyone's smart in their own way.
I think it's all relative. Compared to most of the population, med students are way smarter (academic smart, not necessarily street smart), but we usually measure others compared to ourselves or the people we hang out with.
I mostly agree - however I think at every school (and mine is no exception) you've got at least 5 students that you can't help but wonder how they were not weeded out by the interview.
They are smart, but perhaps not in an intellectual way, or one that comes across interpersonally. For example, I know a woman who has no interest in talking about anything other than fashion and make-up, and comes off as a real bubble-head. You'd never consider her smart if you met her. Yet she's never missed more than one or two questions on any test she's ever taken. There are folks like this walking among us.
I'd say most of the folks who come across as "questionable admissions" tend to have some combination of really high stats, amazing ECs and connections. I wouldn't write them off as not smart, just easily underestimated. Truth of the matter is that the average GPA and MCAT scores of allo schools are pretty high, and it's a pretty tight grouping around each school's mean, so the folks who get into med school these days are all fairly smart. Got mostly A's in undergrad. Scored well above the national average (for test takers, not matriculants) on the MCAT. So they will all be reasonably competitive. Med school admissions does a good job of picking out people who will survive and thrive in med school. If a person got through admissions, there's probably a good reason you just aren't seeing.
As I said before, the average student in med school did well in undergrad, and has the potential to do well in med school. Yet half of all med students (and often not the half you would guess) will end up in the bottom half of their med school class, with below average grades. People will be shocked. Some will deal with it better than others. You see some folks doubling it up in the library, others suffer anxiety and contemplate quitting. Most push through, revamp their study style and survive.
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Medical school does not equal undergraduate or graduate for that matter. Do not confuse "smart" with doing well in medical school. I am far from "smart" but I was an excellent student at every level. You couldn't survive in my house without excellent scholarship. My parents would have "weeded me out" shortly after birth. 
I couldn't tell you if any of the students in my school were "smart" or anything else as my focus was on my studies and mastery of the tasks at hand. Medical school for me was all about getting the job done and in the end, I did. Nothing "smart" about that but a pretty strong work ethic that was always with me.
It was quite funny that I was the most oblivious person to what my classmates around me were in angst over. I spent little time at school and in that time, I had my tasks to complete. Bottom line: less worry over what other folks are doing and strong focus on what you have to do to get the job done works.
I couldn't tell you if any of the students in my school were "smart" or anything else as my focus was on my studies and mastery of the tasks at hand. Medical school for me was all about getting the job done and in the end, I did. Nothing "smart" about that but a pretty strong work ethic that was always with me.
It was quite funny that I was the most oblivious person to what my classmates around me were in angst over. I spent little time at school and in that time, I had my tasks to complete. Bottom line: less worry over what other folks are doing and strong focus on what you have to do to get the job done works.
Medical students are the most hardworking, smart, and devoted group of people I have ever seen. Let me put it this way, the laziest medstudent might just pass for the most hardworking business major out there. Ofcourse there are some dull ones, but they are very very few.
not for nothing, but just because some likes to talk about fashion and makeup does not mean they are dumb. Just because someone has interests other than yours means nothing. She could be a little socially nervous for all you know, having a difficult time opening up to others (besides talking about superficial things). Just a thought. I have found in my experiences that you should not go around trying to figure out how "smart" people are based on silly things. You may be sadly mistaken.
To answer the OP.....Everyone (almost) works hard. If you keep your head up and work hard too, you should be fine.
You'd have to meet her to know what I mean, i guess. We aren't talking about an introvert. My point was that she isn't actually dumb. Just prefers superficial things. At the same time destroying the curve on every test she takes. It happens. You can easily underestimate folks in med school because everyone has been deemed pretty impressive by admissions, whether you see it or not.
ahh ok, I see your point. We actually are saying/seeing the same thing in a different way.
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I was sad to see so many people whose self concept was based primarily on being smarter than those around them. During first year there was a rough adjustment amongst many of my classmates because (as previous posters have stated) they were now surrounded by people as smart or smarter than themselves. My advice: don't worry about everyone else. Set your own standards for measuring success, work hard when you need to, and enjoy the rest of your time without worrying about how smart you think classmates may or may not be. Otherwise, be prepared for a career filled with anxiety and insecurity.
Good advice. Always keep your eyes in your own plate. You won't be the smartest person in the room on this career path (well, one person will be, but odds are that s/he isn't reading this thread🙂). But you can maximize your own potential. And that's as good as it's going to get.
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The questionable admit that usually comes to my mind is one who annoys everyone, acts very bizarre, disappears on the wards for hours at a time (while on call, after showing up late in the first place), etc.
I hear you L2D..
As Tiger 26 said, Id also say med students most likely are academically smart.. Not neccesarily street smart..And not neccesarily socially/"gift of gab" smart...[maybe 3 or 4 years of residency can change this]
Perhaps the only way a "sheltered middle or upper class fashion lady" felt comfortable socializing was being superficial..[in such a methodically pressured, meticulous and academically charged field]..... It was later that I found out:
1) That you are less likely to say something wrong when you dont talk as much..
2) Not everyone does well socially....😴
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So true!
I get your point but I still think that folks..From kings to common man to beggar on the street judge you by how you speak....
I think everyone in med school is "smarter" than the average Joe. But once you get into that bubble environment, it all becomes relative. You got your "popular" girls who enjoys socializing and talking about fashion and pop culture. You got your jocks who like playing flag football everyday after class. It's a microcosm of society. But if you dig a bit deeper, you may find that the footballer also did NIH researcher and published a couple of papers. Or that the chatty bubblehead travelled to Africa to do some serious mission work.
As L2D mentions, everyone who come into medical school had excellent stats. We all survived the weedout process. Our personality may not reflect that nerdy persona, but that just means some of us are underestimated, not that we are stupid.
An interesting sidenote: I always considered myself pretty nerdy, and my friends seem to attest to this stereotype. I can't dress myself. I don't know how to do makeup. I'd rather pick up Times or Newsweek than read Vogue and InStyle. But I'm also, as a friend puts it, "quirky" in the way I talk (I swear, I have some type of undiagnosed social disorder!). I just say stuff that others find funny or amusing without intending for it to be humerous.
When I worked as a programmer, I heard thru a friend that some guys assume I must be a ditz, hence I must be "easy". My friend said he defended me, but the guys seem to assume I probably already slept around given my simple nature. The funny thing was, I never hooked up with anyone where I worked, and I have never slept with a guy. So appearences can be deceiving.
As L2D mentions, everyone who come into medical school had excellent stats. We all survived the weedout process. Our personality may not reflect that nerdy persona, but that just means some of us are underestimated, not that we are stupid.
An interesting sidenote: I always considered myself pretty nerdy, and my friends seem to attest to this stereotype. I can't dress myself. I don't know how to do makeup. I'd rather pick up Times or Newsweek than read Vogue and InStyle. But I'm also, as a friend puts it, "quirky" in the way I talk (I swear, I have some type of undiagnosed social disorder!). I just say stuff that others find funny or amusing without intending for it to be humerous.
When I worked as a programmer, I heard thru a friend that some guys assume I must be a ditz, hence I must be "easy". My friend said he defended me, but the guys seem to assume I probably already slept around given my simple nature. The funny thing was, I never hooked up with anyone where I worked, and I have never slept with a guy. So appearences can be deceiving.
hahahaha. Is he on medicine with you? hahaha. oh sweet jeebus. For those of you playing along at home, this guy is a dooozy. He'll interupt a doctor giving a talk to either ask if he can go to the bathroom or just walk away. On an odd note, this guy will hit on the hottest girls without blinking an eye. It is astonishing to watch.
everybody in med school is at least smart enough to get into medical school.
after that, who knows?
after that, who knows?
Focus on yourself, eh? I do agree with what your saying (b/c ultimately it's the only thing you can control); however, in this game, it does seem ironically counterintuitive. From the first day you sit your ass down in the M1 lecture hall (well far before then, but not gonna go into the pre-med world here), you're being measured against your peers. The day you sit for Step I, you're competing against your peers. During your fourth year interviews, you're competing aginst your peers. Hell, even during you residency, if you're gunning for chief resident, you're competing against your peers. Anyway, I think you get my point. The system is setup this way; some will fail and others will succeed (relatively speaking of course). At the stage in the game that we're currently at, if you want a shot at the ortho, derm, or plastics residency, you'd be a fool not to compare yourself to others. The trick is to not let it consume you (otherwise you become the G word...and nobody wants to be one of them 🙄 ).
You are absolutely "competing", but more often than not, your toughest competition for residency slots isn't even going to be someone you know at your own school. It is some faceless stranger in another state who is unbeknownst to you, amassing comparable credentials and dreaming the same dreams. The dude sitting next to you in histology probably isn't going to be the guy who steals your seat. He might affect your class rank one spot, but likely won't have much impact on your ultimate career path. The person who really makes an impact on you is you. If you are going all out, and doing your absolute best, you will end up where you ought to. The other folks simply don't matter. You can do just as well in med school focused on yourself as you can competing. I suppose there may be some benefit to competing if it drives you to work harder, but that's probably outweighed by the hit to psyche if you aren't keeping pace. So yeah, I think focusing on your own plate during med school is usually the smartest course -- if you do your best, the outcome is maximized, and so you're golden.
And in things like Step 1, 2 and the shelf exams, and residency interviews you absolutely aren't competing primarilly with folks in your school, they don't drive the average or have any impact on what's competitive. It's folks in other schools you've never met that are the dark horses in these races. So these are actually good examples of exactly why it doesn't pay to focus on others while in med school; You are basically not running a race against these specific people, you are just training in the same gym with them. So stay in the zone, and don't be distracted by them.
Honestly I'm not sure it's possible to consistently compare yourself with others and simultaneously NOT let it consume you. Also, the comparison might be difficult as most people in med school keep their scores to themselves (or within certain friends). Many times all you have as a judge of where you stand is the class average. A few students I know started out medical school with the premed mentality of getting the highest grade in the whole class etc, a few weeks into it you could see it literally eating them out after getting test scores back. Needless to say by the middle of the term the goal had quickly morphed into just wanting to be at or above the class average (which was usually high 80's anyway).
Most students at the med school level are hugely Type A and hopefully self-driven to the point that the goals we set for ourselves are already pretty high. Adding another level of torture by focusing on what other people are doing is usually a recipe for disaster. If you want to go for ortho, derm, plastics etc take a look at the type of scores required for them and shoot for it personally. Anyways, it's going to be slightly difficult to keep track of the entire competition (med students from across the country trying to get into these fields too).
I'm not going to lie and say that my competitive side never wonders what certain people get on their tests etc-it's hard to all of a sudden adopt the "focus on yourself" mentality after the gruesome premed years but for the sake of sanity, I've learned to keep that can of worms tightly sealed.
* I think I might have repeated some of what L2D said-didn't see his reply before i submitted mine. But it does bear emphasis.
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Hmm.
The rest of you guys can "FREAK OUT" if you want..
Im worrying about my "own plate" because I know I like to socialize.. Plus I already admitted that there are better students then me.. And Im not embarrased..But I know the land of academia is not an easy world😴
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While this is true, if you put the time in, you'll be suprised at the results you'll achieve. Remember, while everyone else is pretty smart, so are YOU.
What it comes down to is focus and time, IMO.
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Nah, he's on a service with one of my friends. I was talking to the nurse of one of my patients, and she mentioned Doozy by name. She said he was trying to get her to recite all of my pt's meds, and she told him to look in the chart. Not like I didn't have a five page H&P in there with a complete list of meds and dosages. No......
The fact that she was also pretty hot might explain why he was trying to keep the conversation going.
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Are there people in medical school constantly asking others how they did? I have memories of tools in undergrad courses (usually prerequisites) who would go around asking people their grades. Whether I do good or bad, I'm more of a "It's my business" type person.
Yes and no. In my experience, the ones who've gotten this far have learned that they don't get anywhere by asking people directly how they did. But they have learned that we do talk to our friends about our scores and try to get them that way.
For example, I get my grade on a test. I'm happy with it. I tell my friend Bob who I studied with. Gunner Greg wants to know everyone's score. He knows it'd look sneaky to ask me how I did, and Bob would tell him he'd have to ask me himself. But he can ask Sue who lives next door to Bob if she heard how PSJ did on the test.
Maybe Greg even says something like "PSJ sure looked annoyed after the test. I hope he didn't do bad". Sue mentions to Bob when she sees him that she heard PSJ did bad on the test, Bob says "Nah, he was happy" and than Greg gets that info back from Sue.
It's rare but I have seen these things happen, ESPECIALLY with Step 1 scores. There were such crazy rumors flying around.
speaking of which, does going to a less "prestigious" medical school make it easier to perform ahead of the pack and get good grades, since you are graded on a curve? for instance, at a school like washu, where half of the incoming class scored over 37 on their MCAT, i would think that in order to "shine" a student would have to perform exceedingly well, in comparison to good ol state you where the median MCAT may be significantly lower...?
Interesting thought.
This asked frequently and it may be "somewhat" true, however even "lower tier" schools have students who score 260's on Step 1 and annihilate class averages, sometimes multiple. I'd rate my school "middle tier" but I know for a fact there was somebody who, while he had the numbers for Wash U, thought he'd sweep in and dominate. Yeah...not so much. It also goes to the idea that the guy who got a 40 MCAT 4.0 GPA isn't necessarily going to be top of the class.
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This is a lot less of a factor than you might think.
As someone already said, it's probably true to some degree. However, a lot of top students are offered substantial scholarships at lesser rank schools. So at any given school, you're most likely going to have a few of these individuals running around. But ultimately class ranking is only one of many variables looked at in the match. For example, it doesn't make a **** difference where you go to school when you sit for the Step exams. Consequently, those at the higher ranked schools probably dominate on a national scale (God knows what the Step I average is for Wash U). Overall, I don't think you're going to be making a good decision if you choose to attend for the aforementioned reason.
If an individual has managed to do this, I'd be quite surprised if he wasn't in the top of his class. With that academic combination, the student has proven himself to be nationally superior to 99% of his peers. Sure nothing's guaranteed, but realistically speaking...come on now.
Level of competition can have nothing to do with intelligence. You can have a really smart group of geniuses who are all chill and just take things as they come. On the other hand, you can have a bunch of stupid people who are willing to kill each other to get a good grade.
I did my undergrad at Johns Hopkins, which is filled with cutthroats. Really. JHU can give Capitol Hill a run for its money, that's how bad it was when I was there.
People running through the library taking notes and books, people tearing off random pages of other people's tests or assignments in submission boxes, people hoarding previous year exams, quizzes, homeworks, etc.
MS1 for me was the most relaxed academic year I have had, I couldn't have been happier leaving undergrad.
Not really (even if you were graded on a curve, which you often aren't). It theoretically could be marginally true at the extremes (when comparing the top students at the med school with the highest average admission stats against the lowest), but probably not true as a general proposition. The problem is that ALL US allo med schools have fairly high average entry stats, and the range of matriculant stats amongst all med schools isn't that vast. It's a tight range and EVERYONE in US allo med school is more competitive than the average college student. At ALL US allo med schools folks who get in got mostly A's. It's just that at some schools there are a few more As instead of A-s in the crowd. Can you really say that because you got A's in undergrad you are going to crush your classmates who trended more toward A-? Is a class with an average entering GPA of 3.7 really that much harder to succeed in than a class with an entering GPA of 3.5? Not likely. As you will see, almost everyone admitted to each med school has the ability to succeed there, and the high score on a test probably won't go to the same person each time. Additionally, the folks who never studied in undergrad and got A's may find that doesn't work in med school, while the folks who only got A- in undergrad because they weren't that interested in the prereqs may redouble their efforts and start acing things when in med school and the stuff starts becoming professionally relevant. So the point is, I sure wouldn't go to a "lesser" stat school expecting to have an easy time being the top of the class as compared to a "more prestigious" school where I would expect to be struggling. It just doesn't work that way. The folks who blossom in med school probably would do it anywhere, the folks who struggle will probably struggle everywhere, and for the folks in between, the range between schools is simply too tight to expect a decent bump in class rank.
And FWIW, the stats that determine residency tend not to be the first two years GPA/rank anyhow. It will be the Step exam, where you won't be competing against your classmates as much as folks at other schools, and your clinical evaluations, which are in large part subjectively graded based on non-numerical stat type issues.
So I see this as a foolish gambit. Go to the school you will be happiest at and thus will do well at. If you focus on potential competition, you may see first-hand why the various statistical correlations of matriculation stats to medical school success are pretty nominal. There is a slight trend, but it isn't a one to one correlation, and not enough to base a school choice. Your work ethic and your ability to study effectively at the med school level (something not tested in college), and to switch up to better study methods if things aren't working, are going to determine how you are going to do in med school, not the level of competition.
But the level of competition will be pretty comparable throughout the 120+ allo med schools, because the entry stats are fairly tight. You don't get into med school with worse than a B+ average, and those that are at that range have done something exceptional that made the admissions officers believe they can keep pace. So we are talking in med school about a class where admissions has truncated everyone from college who has gotten B's or below -- all the folks who made you look so good in undergrad. This is true no matter where you go. It won't make a great deal of difference whether the cut is at the B+ level or the A- level. So yeah, I wouldn't waste any effort thinking about this kind of strategy. It won't work for most. You will probably end up in about the same rank of your class no matter where you go, probably lower than at whatever place you are happiest at (numbers notwithstanding), and won't do any better on the Step or rotations which count a lot more anyhow.
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Different skill sets, different environment, different topics, different peers....the list goes on. Don't infer too much from a good undergrad performance.
1- You're not always graded on a curve. As a matter of fact my school has cut offs for each class, and they couldn't care less if the entire class got an A.
2- less prestigious schools are sometimes less organized and it becomes harder to do well. At my school, we pretty much have everything we need to study made extremely clear. You have a stack of notes made by the proff, learn it well and you can gaurantee yourself a good grade. Other schools make you figure out what it is that you have to study (waste of time and makes things harder).
My posting is not based on being smarter than those around me. My posting is based on teh fact that I look at someone and say "would I want that person to be my personal physician" and that is what makes it scary.
However, I must admit that it is kind of scary that they are going to let me be a doctor.
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Some people get into med school because they know how to play the game, and play it well they do. Sometimes these same people can do the exact same for med school as well. They may be clueless in other subjects but when it comes to what we M1s/M2s consider success, these people can play the game well.
I think I'll wait to reserve judgment on "smart" until I see my fellow classmates in rounds during M3/M4. It all looks good on paper until you have to actually use it.
There may be a lot of smart people in med school, but there seems to be surprisingly few with any real common sense. You'll see as you go through (unless you're one of the ones without any common sense). Residency too.
The other thing about "smarts" is that there are simply many factors that go into what makes a good physician. You don't need all of them but the best physicians will recognize their own deficiencies and make them into strengths. The worst physicians will overcompensate for their deficiencies or blame others for them. Some people are really good at tests but exceedingly poor at communicating. Or bad at thinking on their feet. Or bad at making connections between ideas. Or bad at remembering things. Or bad at organization.
There are many ways, as you progress through med school and residency, for your own deficiencies to come out and for your good qualities to also become apparent. Hence, part of the reason we choose specialties or the career path we end up on. There will always people who seem to be good at "everything," however, at least on outward appearance.
The other thing about "smarts" is that there are simply many factors that go into what makes a good physician. You don't need all of them but the best physicians will recognize their own deficiencies and make them into strengths. The worst physicians will overcompensate for their deficiencies or blame others for them. Some people are really good at tests but exceedingly poor at communicating. Or bad at thinking on their feet. Or bad at making connections between ideas. Or bad at remembering things. Or bad at organization.
There are many ways, as you progress through med school and residency, for your own deficiencies to come out and for your good qualities to also become apparent. Hence, part of the reason we choose specialties or the career path we end up on. There will always people who seem to be good at "everything," however, at least on outward appearance.
