Everyone is telling me not to be a physician because of Obamacare?

[RaySBU]

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Doctors don't get fired. They live much more comfortably than the average middle class people in the US. For many people those reasons alone are motivation enough to become a good doctor. But the great doctors are he ones who love what they do and care. That doesn't mean that the others are any less of a person for wanting a good and comfortable life for themselves or their family. It doesn't matter what your motivation as long as you're not messing up people's lives. Do lawyers, football players, bankers, CEOs, teachers HAVE to love their job? No, they just need to be good at it. Obamacare will have very little effect on most doctor's pay, those who have private practices may take some sort of hit at one point but other than that its insignificant.

 

[Dave89]

Obamacare will have very little effect on most doctor's pay, those who have private practices may take some sort of hit at one point but other than that its insignificant.

 

[ThrombinHood]

If you're really interested in what changes the ACA and other health reform is making in the US I suggest you watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Ilc5xK2_E

 

[Planes2Doc]

Who goes a flying **** if you want to be rich. If you're motivated, driven, and smart enough to go through all the hoops of medicine but also like nice vacations and fast cars, it doesn't mean you're any less of the former traits. This isn't a med school interview, nobody cares about your bleeding heart ideals. If that's what you believe that's great, but don't put others down for being motivated by money as well. They'll probably be just as good of a doctor as anyone else, just in nicer suits and cooler cars.

Exactly! I can't think of any profession where so much emphasis is placed on one's intentions. If you're seeing a doctor for an issue, what are you going to care about most? Whether they became a doctor for money or passion? Whether they spend their weekends volunteering at a free clinic or getting hookers in Vegas? Or whether they are able to effectively treat you or not.

Ah yes, I think we only care about the latter. As for the amount of money they make and what they do in their spare time?

WHO THE HELL CARES?!?!?!?!?!?!

 

[Dave89]

If you're really interested in what changes the ACA and other health reform is making in the US I suggest you watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Ilc5xK2_E

NOTE: If you're really interested in what changes the ACA and other health reform is making in the US, please do not rely upon a 9-minute youtube video. You'd be better served by reading YahooNews every day and seeing how the ACA is imploding into an ever-greater fireball day by day.

 

[Bamfu]

Everybody works so that they can get a paycheck. This is, has been, and always will be the primary motivating factor for all employment.

Medicine is no different. Becoming a physician is way too much work, tests, and torture to do for free. In fact, any full time job is too much work to do for free when you have to spend your time providing for yourself.

They don't ask you in an interview: "Why do you want to work?" The answer to that is obvious: "I don't, but I need money to survive/give myself a certain lifestyle." They ask: "Why did you choose medicine to provide yourself with a paycheck?" That's where your 'bleeding heart' comes into play. We all have our reasons for choosing medicine, but we all have the same reason for choosing to work: Bamfu gotta get paid too son.

And quit with the complaining of physician income. It is very high. Down here in the dirty south, with my lifestyle (no kids and a working spouse), $250k, even after taxes, is enough to drive a ferari 😎. I'm more of an American muscle guy myself, though.. and I hate caviar.

edit: nvm on Obamacare. I ain't skeert, and my opinion doesn't matter.

 

[Arkangeloid]

Sorry, this is a touchy issue for me. Please don't become a doctor. We need less money-obsessed people in medicine. Providing health care to people is a privilege, not your gateway to becoming rich. In my country, doctors don't make as much money as US physicians, but they are still living fulfilling lives.

🙄

 

[TheBatman]

If that's the case I think you should helpfully point him in the direction of the nearest charity where he can offload whatever portion of his salary he feels is excessive.

It's funny how you left out the part about the construction worker dying. Also why is it acceptable to berate police officers that are only working for their daily power trip as opposed to a physician who only does it for the money?

 

[inycepoo]

Care to elaborate? Yahoo! News isn't the best source of news (and I speak as a fervent defender of Yahoo! in all other respects). But like actually.

P.S. If you're a Republican, then that's a sufficient explanation.

 

[StephanieZ]

It's funny how you left out the part about the construction worker dying. Also why is it acceptable to berate police officers that are only working for their daily power trip as opposed to a physician who only does it for the money?

I left that out because I only wanted to quote the part that was relevant. The ER doc you shadowed loves his job and doesn't care about his paycheck. Maybe he can find a "Construction workers without health insurance" charity to donate to and cut his take-home pay to 30k-40k. But I doubt that he would because everybody is a bleeding heart until their interests are actually threatened.

As far as a police officer, if they do their job well and don't break any laws (i.e. no police brutality) I don't really care if they are in it to help people or because it gives them a power trip.

 

[inycepoo]

General consensus ITT is right for the most part BUT missing a HUGE part of the discussion on provider reimbursement:

QUALITY

The surgeon who logs 100 hrs/week but does a worse job than the other guy who logs 50 hrs/week should not necessarily make more money. (I am speaking generally; obviously case-by-case variation exists.) Ever heard of the health care cost crisis? It's for real, and remains one of the only things in HC politics these days that's not partisan. Outdated sentiment like this was exactly what led to the heavily broken FFS system that is still in place.

Now, now, don't come bumbling in and giving examples of other professions in which people **** up a lot but are still paid very well as a counter argument. They're not eating up 20% of GDP. More importantly, two wrongs don't make a right. Doctors are better than those scumbags.

Any denial of the above reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of health policy, which is sadly a pathology that afflicts most of the medical world. Much credit to anecdotal myths, preconceptions, partisanship, and the press.

 

[yehhhboiii]

Well-compensated? Yes. We should get paid enough to pay back our debts and live a comfortable upper-middle class life. Making 150k or 200k a year instead of 250k will not put you out onto the streets. You'll easily still be in the top 10% (probably top 5%) if I am not mistaken.

My frustration stems from the premise of OP's question. These pre-meds worrying about switching professions because of Obama care is beyond ridiculous. I know pre-meds whose main goal is to make 500k+ and drive fancy cars. I've talked to these people. That's what they think about and medicine is just their way to that ultimate goal. IMO these people have no business going into medicine. If you disagree and you think I'm completely full of you know what, then write about that in your applications. During interviews when adcoms ask about why you want to be a doctor, tell them the truth and list $$$$ as one of your reasons. However, don't pretend during interviews that you care about underserved populations or helping the needy and all that.

Also, I had a friend who needed surgery and for a five minute consultation with the surgeon, he got charged a fee of $ 500. If that's not robbery, I don't know what is. And just because celebs, businessmen and the like get hugely overpaid doesn't mean that we should as well. But as I can see that I'm clearly outvoted on these forums.

wait why should doctors get paid 100k less? because we should be satisfied with being in the top whatever percent? you know who gets the money if they don't get paid? insurance companies and hospitals. lower physician pay doesn't lead to lower costs for patients. it's not ridiculous at all to be concerned about the future and how legislation will affect your career prospects. but thanks for determining what doctors deserve without spending a minute doing any of the training or the work that they do.

areas are underserved because it sucks to live there or there isn't enough money to support a practice. you can pretend that you would work for free all you want but in the end, you have to pay the bills, your staff and yourself. in any case, how did you determine that doctors are "hugely overpaid"? through a careful economic analysis of the costs and benefits of lengthy training that they do? a determination of the value of the long hours worked and high stress that doctors undergo every day due to the possibility of medical errors or frivolous lawsuits? or is it merely an exhibition of your unrealistic premed ideals and some peculiar desire for medical martyrdom

 

[JustintheDoctor]

Just be an anesthesiologist, they 999billion a year after taxes.

Just watch out for those Nurse Anesthetists

 

[IJL]

General consensus ITT is right for the most part BUT missing a HUGE part of the discussion on provider reimbursement:

QUALITY

The surgeon who logs 100 hrs/week but does a worse job than the other guy who logs 50 hrs/week should not necessarily make more money. (I am speaking generally; obviously case-by-case variation exists.) Ever heard of the health care cost crisis? It's for real, and remains one of the only things in HC politics these days that's not partisan. Outdated sentiment like this was exactly what led to the heavily broken FFS system that is still in place.

Now, now, don't come bumbling in and giving examples of other professions in which people **** up a lot but are still paid very well as a counter argument. They're not eating up 20% of GDP. More importantly, two wrongs don't make a right. Doctors are better than those scumbags.

Any denial of the above reflects a fundamental lack of understanding of health policy, which is sadly a pathology that afflicts most of the medical world. Much credit to anecdotal myths, preconceptions, partisanship, and the press.

I feel sorry for you... You will wake up one day though

 

[fourhumours]

I give this thread 👎thumbdown

Pros: promising opening topic, a real chance for internet polemics and savagery, perhaps even a mention of national socialism.

Cons: we have seen this thread before ad nauseum. this thread lacked the panache and twists needed to be exciting. instead it just rehashed the same old arguments, but with less vigor than earlier threads. overall an underwhelming performance by all those involved.

Conclusion: don't waste your time, find a more entertaining thread.

 

[inycepoo]

I feel sorry for you... You will wake up one day though

Please enlighten me then, oh mighty medical student, expert on physician reimbursement. I don't believe much of what I said was anything but cold, hard fact.

 

[Planes2Doc]

This is exactly why I was so disgusted with "volunteering" in the hospital. Things aren't any cheaper for patients. They don't get any free services or any nice things. That money ultimately ends up lining the pockets of hospital administrators. The same thing would happen if physicians got shafted with lower salaries. Yet, hospital executives fly under the radar time and time again in these threads.

And speaking of volunteering, since there is an endless supply of pre-meds and the elderly that actually want to be there, why aren't things getting cheaper for the patients? 😕

 

[Dave89]

The same thing would happen if physicians got shafted with lower salaries. Yet, hospital executives fly under the radar time and time again in these threads.

That's because medicine will always attract martyrs.

 

[Planes2Doc]

That's because medicine will always attract martyrs.

Disgusting. Are people seriously that naive?

 

[jr93]

I know discussing physician pay is a sensitive topic, but I wouldn't rag on doctors before I'd focus on all the actors, athletes, and "personalities", among CEO's and executives, who make hundreds of times more money for doing far less.

This is a bad comparison. The chance of being a high paid actor or athlete is way less than becoming a doctor. If you don't like actor salaries, don't pay for movies or don't pay to go to sporting events. Engineers I'm currently around often complain about these highly paid celebrities too but it's pointless. You can't compare a median worker to someone at the top of their field. There are a lot of broke actors and the median athlete can't even get a scholarship to play sports in college. People should worry about themselves and not the tiny percent of people at the peak of their career field that make more money than them. Just be happy with what you do and make enough to live the way you want to live. Who cares what your neighbors do. Some people are born into money and make more in interest and dividends in their teenage years than accomplished doctors. I personally don't care that much. I'm loving my pursuit of my healthcare career.

 

[inycepoo]

Disgusting. Are people seriously that naive?

Naive that...what again? That there's no hope for the system to cure perverse reimbursement incentives because the money will just be embezzled by hospital execs? What a sheepish mentality to have.

These people "fly under the threads" because no one actually ever cares to read up on some of this stuff, try to find out where the money actually comes from and goes, but instead relies on word of mouth and anecdotal evidence to defend their claims. No wonder evidence-based medicine had a hard time catching on in the medical world. People just don't get in the habit, huh?

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Please enlighten me then, oh mighty medical student, expert on physician reimbursement. I don't believe much of what I said was anything but cold, hard fact.

Your initial comparision is irrelevant.

Assuming that quality is the same, a surgeon who works 100 hours/week should be paid twice as much as one that works 50 hours/week.

And where are you getting the 20% figure of physician salary costs per GDP?

 

[circulus vitios]

Naive that...what again? That there's no hope for the system to cure perverse reimbursement incentives because the money will just be embezzled by hospital execs? What a sheepish mentality to have.

Physician compensation represents ~10% of all health care spending. Lowering physician salaries would have very little effect on 'improving' health care, whatever that means. If you want to make health care cheaper then look at the cost of the bleeding-edge procedures and medications that everyone wants or thinks they need. Look at the obscene markup on medical equipment. Look at the lack of clarity or transparency: when was the last time you saw an itemized quote for a routine procedure?

 

[inycepoo]

Your initial comparision is irrelevant.

Assuming that quality is the same, a surgeon who works 100 hours/week should be paid twice as much as one that works 50 hours/week.

And where are you getting the 20% figure of physician salary costs per GDP?

I meant all HC costs, not physician salaries. Granted, it's only 16-18% depending on the source now, but easily 20% by all estimates in 2-3 years, especially as the ACA is fully implemented.

That's the point, though. Quality is NOT all the same. Never has been and never will. We should not be reimbursing while recognizing this is the case. But no, all doctors are highly trained and therefore do very competent work. What a joke.

 

[inycepoo]

Physician compensation represents ~10% of all health care spending. Lowering physician salaries would have very little effect on 'improving' health care, whatever that means. If you want to make health care cheaper then look at the cost of the bleeding-edge procedures and medications that everyone wants or thinks they need. Look at the obscene markup on medical equipment. Look at the lack of clarity or transparency: when was the last time you saw an itemized quote for a routine procedure?

+10000

I never said physician compensation would solve everything. But it plays a role. It was still a sheepish attitude to label us naive.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

I meant all HC costs, not physician salaries. Granted, it's only 16-18% depending on the source now, but easily 20% by all estimates in 2-3 years, especially as the ACA is fully implemented.

That's the point, though. Quality is NOT all the same. Never has been and never will. We should not be reimbursing while recognizing this is the case. But no, all doctors are highly trained and therefore do very competent work. What a joke.

this is still a gross overestimation.
the actual figure is around 10% of all HC costs.

Do you have some actual evidence to back up the claim that a physician who works more will not produce the quality work that a physician who works less does?

 

[inycepoo]

this is still a gross overestimation.
the actual figure is around 10% of all HC costs.

Do you have some actual evidence to back up the claim that a physician who works more will not produce the quality work that a physician who works less does?

.....it was not a statement that 20% of GDP was reimbursement. I believe I've made that clear already. It was to drive in the point that this all plays a role in cost. God save the Queen.

Actually, the evidence is in the contrary. At least at the hospital level, the more procedures it does, the better the quality. But the presupposition of "given that quality is the same" in terms of discussing physician work is just laughable because it's not true. Notice my use of "not necessarily paid more" and other relative adjectives/adverbs instead of their absolute counterparts.

 

[acceptmeplease]

If you want to become a physician simply because of the paycheck then the jokes actually on you. I was shadowing an ER doc who absolutely loves what he does. He supports the ACA because most patients without health care are reluctant to go to the ER and end up getting sicker than they have to. He told me a story about a forty year old construction worker that came into the hospital because his chest pain became unbearable. He ended up Coding at the hospital and died. If he had insurance I bet he would have came in earlier or at least seen a PCP. Lastly Why would you spend so much of your life doing something you don't have any interest in just for some paper?

I've seen a lot of 40 year-olds code in the ER and stubbornness was more to blame than insurance.

 

[ur2l8]

It isn't that doctors are overpaid, but that most Americans are underpaid. Try supporting a family on minimum wage.


250K is enough to live a financially secure life, but it's unlikely that you'll be driving Ferraris and and eating caviar everyday. Especially if you have a family.

250K, after tax, would be somewhere around 157K. Then subtract student loans, living expenses, kids' tuition (if at private school), retirement/investment....and, like I said, although you're financially secure (which is indeed a luxury), you aren't what I would call "rich".

+1 best post in here

 

[Radon XP]

wait why should doctors get paid 100k less? because we should be satisfied with being in the top whatever percent? you know who gets the money if they don't get paid? insurance companies and hospitals. lower physician pay doesn't lead to lower costs for patients. it's not ridiculous at all to be concerned about the future and how legislation will affect your career prospects. but thanks for determining what doctors deserve without spending a minute doing any of the training or the work that they do.

This right here 👍

 

[yehhhboiii]

Also what is this doctors dont get fired belief? You can certainly lose your job and even your license. You might join a group that strings you along, pretending that you have a chance at partner as they eat up your earnings. Or you may end up without a job due to a poor job market as can be seen in pathology.

 

[LizzyM]

wait why should doctors get paid 100k less? because we should be satisfied with being in the top whatever percent? you know who gets the money if they don't get paid? insurance companies and hospitals. lower physician pay doesn't lead to lower costs for patients. it's not ridiculous at all to be concerned about the future and how legislation will affect your career prospects. but thanks for determining what doctors deserve without spending a minute doing any of the training or the work that they do.

areas are underserved because it sucks to live there or there isn't enough money to support a practice. you can pretend that you would work for free all you want but in the end, you have to pay the bills, your staff and yourself. in any case, how did you determine that doctors are "hugely overpaid"? through a careful economic analysis of the costs and benefits of lengthy training that they do? a determination of the value of the long hours worked and high stress that doctors undergo every day due to the possibility of medical errors or frivolous lawsuits? or is it merely an exhibition of your unrealistic premed ideals and some peculiar desire for medical martyrdom

Not if the taxpayers are footing the bill. No one gets the money, they just clamp down and lower what's paid to physicians and hospitals. That's why health care is so much cheaper, and physicians make so much less, in some other countries, because the taxpayers won't pay for it. Socialized medicine strikes fear in the hearts of some physicians.

 

[oldbearprofessor]

Socialized medicine strikes fear in the hearts of physicians.

Overstated. I know lots of pediatricians who actively support a single payer system, at least as related to children's health care.

 

[LizzyM]

Overstated. I know lots of pediatricians who actively support a single payer system, at least as related to children's health care.

Point taken.

 

[yehhhboiii]

Not if the taxpayers are footing the bill. No one gets the money, they just clamp down and lower what's paid to physicians and hospitals. That's why health care is so much cheaper, and physicians make so much less, in some other countries, because the taxpayers won't pay for it. Socialized medicine strikes fear in the hearts of some physicians.

you mean like in canada where doctors on the public payroll make similar salaries as their colleagues across the border?

 

[LizzyM]

you mean like in canada where doctors on the public payroll make similar salaries as their colleagues across the border?

But the savings comes in not having health insurance companies making big money there, correct?

 

[plumazul]

But the savings comes in not having health insurance companies making big money there, correct?

Absolutely. Private health insurance companies are nothing more than parasites.

I lived in Canada for several years, you hear a lot of whining and grumbling, but what you never hear is "I wish we had a system like the Americans"

 

[VictorAlpha]

Doctors get paid what they do for a reason. They worked hard to get where they are and should be compensated well for their work.

Just because they make more than most Americans doesn't mean they don't deserve a big paycheck.

I kind of agree with this. I mean if someone is going to be trained well enough to safely be opening up someone else's skullcap and playing around inside or cracking someone's chest and playing around with the heart muscle; they can get a few extra bucks....i mean of all the things people spend their money on...

 

[Radon XP]

I personally don't see how high and fair physician compensation is incompatible with universal healthcare.

Private, for-profit insurance companies are the among the scum of the Earth.

 

[Back 5]

Personally, as someone who will accumulate upwards of half a million dollars in student loans if I end up going the DO route coupled with my prior school loans...I need to earn a high enough salary to pay this down.

If I acquire the knowledge and expertise to become a talented specialists who is driven to work long hours...I feel that deserves appropriate compensation.

This doesn't mean I am going into medicine for the money, no, I am simply asking for a deserved compensation.

 

[Romz]

Personally, as someone who will accumulate upwards of half a million dollars in student loans if I end up going the DO route coupled with my prior school loans...I need to earn a high enough salary to pay this down.

If I acquire the knowledge and expertise to become a talented specialists who is driven to work long hours...I feel that deserves appropriate compensation.

This doesn't mean I am going into medicine for the money, no, I am simply asking for a deserved compensation.

👍

 

[subtlepenguin]

Opened the thread expecting everyone to bash and berate OP for not showing unconditional altruism towards medicine and even trying to think about his future financial situation. Pleasantly surprised.

 

[gmcguitar4]

Med schools..your tuition is too damn high.

 

[basketcase0a0]

^This

 

[Planes2Doc]

Opened the thread expecting everyone to bash and berate OP for not showing unconditional altruism towards medicine and even trying to think about his future financial situation. Pleasantly surprised.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!! My faith in humanity has been partially restored.

 

[Dbate]

Bolded because this is exactly why physicians should be well-compensated. Unless you are the rare Mother Theresa type, people's job performance and dedication tends to be commensurate with their level of compensation. Sorry, but if in your country doctors are not that highly paid, it probably has less to do with any kind of increased level of humanitarianism among the profession and everything to do with the bar being set lower to enter the profession. Human nature, bro, it's crazy like that.

OP, then don't become a doctor.

There is so much truth in what you stated that its unreal.

 

[Dbate]

Honestly, if doctors weren't well compensated I wouldn't become one. Society shows how much they appreciate your services by how much they pay you.

Money isn't the only reason. But not making alot of money would definitely be a deal breaker.

Altruism is great and all, but let's be honest. In the real world, you get what you incentivize. The US has the highest salaries in the medical profession and as a result, the US has the most advanced medical system in the world. Bar none.

People respond to incentives.

 

[inycepoo]

Med schools..your tuition is too damn high.

Even then, most med schools do not run profits off of med students. Maybe a 1-3% margin max if they have a robust endowment to make up for some areas. This is one of the biggest hidden reasons why schools are so damn reluctant to increase enrollment, besides all the barriers to entry, small class sizes stuff; med schools make no money off of students.

I know this because I have more than a couple friends who work at the Secretary's Office at my Ivy institution who hear of and have seen this subject come about time and time again behind closed doors. I think last year our med school was only in the red by 0.9%, and everyone was really pleased about that already.

Just thought I'd put that out there.

 

[DocCox]

I find it entertaining how everyone is trying to place a number on the amount doctors should get paid. If someone wants to trade their labor for monetary compensation, who are you to decide exactly how much that should be? Sure health care is quite expensive, that's what happens when there's high demand and low supply, but that doesn't give ANYONE the right to set a limit on physicians wages. Fundamental economics tells us that if you want increased quality for a lower cost, let the free market handle it. I know my beliefs won't be that popular on this site, but the fact is that legislation in this country makes it TOO difficult to practice medicine (yes, I'm talking about requiring licenses for example) which lowers the competition in the field. Med school would be a hell of a lot less expensive if attendance wasn't required to be a physician. Get rid of all the restrictive legislation, open up more competition in health care, allow people to choose their health care providers based on consumer reports, word-of-mouth, doctor experience (however the hell they want to decide) and there will MUCH more options available (most will be cheaper) and at a higher level of quality. And for the people who fall through the cracks? What happened to these people before medicare and medicaid? Doctors provided care FOR FREE, by CHOICE. The more the government steps in to try and be "the good guy" the less charitable care physicians will provide and the more money that will come out of taxpayers pockets in the end. Obamacare is just another HUGE step in the wrong direction toward socialism.

TL;DR: Free Market = Higher quality care for less cost. Government intrusion = Less competition in the field and higher cost of care.

 

[inycepoo]

Honestly, if doctors weren't well compensated I wouldn't become one. Society shows how much they appreciate your services by how much they pay you.

Money isn't the only reason. But not making alot of money would definitely be a deal breaker.

Altruism is great and all, but let's be honest. In the real world, you get what you incentivize. The US has the highest salaries in the medical profession and as a result, the US has the most advanced medical system in the world. Bar none.

People respond to incentives.

Pero like stopppppppppppppp

The incentives are perverse. Overutilization and medical errors come to mind. They're one of the main reasons we're in this ****show of a health care crisis in this country, a feat that no other OECD country has achieved as of yet. What makes it "advanced" is also what makes it the most wasteful in the developed world.