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Thank you for this thread 🙂 I'm an MS1 very interested in neuro, but have found that many of the neurologists I've shadowed have either said that they wished they'd subspecialized or outright encouraged me to pick a different specialty. Often they cite things like lower compensation relative to other specialties, being over-scheduled and not having enough time with each pt for the lengthy neuro exam, and difficult/bad experience with the mostly inpatient residency.

What are the biggest pros & cons about the specialty to you, and what was your decision process that led you to choose neuro despite the cons? Typical question that has been answered many times elsewhere, I know, but I'm always interested to hear more physicians' perspectives on it.
 
Great thread. I am leaning towards neurology but rarely do I meet anyone who is encouraging. I think it has a lot of positives but most people don't mention them because neurology has a bad reputation that is unfair and persistent. Part of the problem is that some MS3 curriculum doesn't even have neurology and students have very little exposure to it. It is sort of the ugly step child of "core rotations".
 
I've repeatedly read on this site that for someone who's interested in Neurohospitalist career, doing a fellowship in vascular neurology or NCC is the way to go. I also read on this site that if you do your residency at an inpatient-heavy program, doing a fellowship wouldn't be necessary. Could you point me towards some of residency programs that provide adequate inpatient training?

Thanks
 
Great thread. I am leaning towards neurology but rarely do I meet anyone who is encouraging. I think it has a lot of positives but most people don't mention them because neurology has a bad reputation that is unfair and persistent. Part of the problem is that some MS3 curriculum doesn't even have neurology and students have very little exposure to it. It is sort of the ugly step child of "core rotations".
I'm currently doing my neurology rotation with a very happy and satisfied (even financially!) neurologist. After reading about the field I was becoming someone unmotivated to pursue it. Now that I'm rotating in neurology, I can tell you that there's no other specialty in medicine that would provide me with the same satisfaction.
 
Great thread. I am leaning towards neurology but rarely do I meet anyone who is encouraging. I think it has a lot of positives but most people don't mention them because neurology has a bad reputation that is unfair and persistent. Part of the problem is that some MS3 curriculum doesn't even have neurology and students have very little exposure to it. It is sort of the ugly step child of "core rotations".
The other problem is that neurology has such poor outcomes that it turns a lot of people off. It's largely for the sort of people that can get satisfaction merely from making the right diagnosis rather than from providing a cure, and that certainly isn't everybody.
I've repeatedly read on this site that for someone who's interested in Neurohospitalist career, doing a fellowship in vascular neurology or NCC is the way to go. I also read on this site that if you do your residency at an inpatient-heavy program, doing a fellowship wouldn't be necessary. Could you point me towards some of residency programs that provide adequate inpatient training?

Thanks
Basically any university program will give you enough inpatient training. Community programs are where it gets hit or miss.
 
The other problem is that neurology has such poor outcomes that it turns a lot of people off. It's largely for the sort of people that can get satisfaction merely from making the right diagnosis rather than from providing a cure, and that certainly isn't everybody.

Basically any university program will give you enough inpatient training. Community programs are where it gets hit or miss.
Totally me. I am much less interested in treatment compared to finding the right diagnosis. Doesn't mean I dont like to treat patient and see them get well, but if it doesn't happen or there are good options I don't get as frustrated as many of my classmates would.

What I love about neurology is that the brain affects everything and everything affects the brain. Take weakness as an example. It could be anything from an electrolyte imbalance to ALS and it is fun to narrow things down through history, exam, and labs. It takes that fun aspect of IM and eliminates much of the the stuff I don't like such as diarrhea and gut stuff.
 
I also think people don't realize how broad neurology is and that you can tailor your post residency experience to have whatever work/life balance you want. Neuro has more subspecialties than IM.
  • Neuro-opthalmology
  • Neuro-oncology
  • Neurointensive Care
  • Movement Disorders
  • Epilepsy
  • Neuromuscular
  • Headache
  • Vascular
  • Behavioral
  • Neuro-immunology
  • Dementia
  • Pain
  • Clinical Neurophysiology
  • Sleep
  • Endovascular/Interventional
  • Neurohospitalist
 
Totally me. I am much less interested in treatment compared to finding the right diagnosis. Doesn't mean I dont like to treat patient and see them get well, but if it doesn't happen or there are good options I don't get as frustrated as many of my classmates would.

What I love about neurology is that the brain affects everything and everything affects the brain. Take weakness as an example. It could be anything from an electrolyte imbalance to ALS and it is fun to narrow things down through history, exam, and labs. It takes that fun aspect of IM and eliminates much of the the stuff I don't like such as diarrhea and gut stuff.
Yep. I'm the same way. I'm more interested in "solving puzzles" than "fixing the problem". I, too, have a great amount of sympathy to patients and would love that one day we have cure to all neurological diseases. For now, I'll take solace in slowing down the diseases progress and helping patients cope with their diseases.
 
Hello everyone. Thought I'd start a new topic covering everything from the Med student level to the attending level. Salary, subspecialties, outlook/jobs, procedures, and what we do on the daily are some possible examples. It is the best specialty there is after all.


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What do you see as the future of general neurology? I feel like everyone I encounter is a subspecialist but I dont know if this is just because Im only exposed to academics. How much do general neurologists still do? For example, are they diagnosing things like ALS or are these patient getting referred to neuromuscular at big academic centers?

Part of the drawback of neurology is the feeling that I have to pick a subspecialty. I want to have a diverse array of general neurology clinic patients and still make rounds in the hospital as a general neurologist. I know that used to be the model, but since I have never worked with a community neurologist I am not sure how common that is now.

Also, how do you see the increasing demand for neurology and the shift away from fee for service affecting compensation? I read that neurology has one of the highest wait times for an appointment out of all specialties.
 
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I also think people don't realize how broad neurology is and that you can tailor your post residency experience to have whatever work/life balance you want. Neuro has more subspecialties than IM.
  • Neuro-opthalmology
  • Neuro-oncology
  • Neurointensive Care
  • Movement Disorders
  • Epilepsy
  • Neuromuscular
  • Headache
  • Vascular
  • Behavioral
  • Neuro-immunology
  • Dementia
  • Pain
  • Clinical Neurophysiology
  • Sleep
  • Endovascular/Interventional
  • Neurohospitalist
And yet the outcomes of every single subspecialty are extremely poor compared to most other fields. That's the kicker with neuro. Neuro-optho? Might help a tiny bit. Neuro-onc? Some of the highest mortality rates of any oncology patients. NICU? Prepare for more failures than success stories, and those failures fail hard. Epilepsy? Rarely will you ever stop their seizures, you're most often just buying them time between seizures (or worse yet, diagnosing them with a far more deadly cause than just epilepsy). Movement? Maybe they'll move a little better, but generally you're just buying time until Parkinson's or Huntington's gets them (or in non-Parkinsonian movement disorders, doing not a whole lot of good). Dementia speaks for itself. I mean... Damn, it's just a rough field. I'm not hating on it, it honestly interests me, but just thinking about the outcomes, dear God, it's bleak.
 
We treat a variety of diseases and this is why hospitals everywhere are building large neuroscience centers and related facilities like an epilepsy monitoring unit, telestroke facilities, Neuro ICU, outpatient EMG/NCS labs and autonomic testing centers. I heard the "diagnosis and adios" stuff in medical school too but, as a neurologist, it's only very rarely that I can't provide ANY treatment.

I wrote a post about this once and I was reading about how neurologists were not able to provide much in the way of therapy, etc. ironically I had just finished pulling a clot out of a left MCA restoring total function to a previously plegic, numb and aphasia patient.

Migraines and the injections we do, along with EMG guided Botox for things like blephrospasm, dystopia and spasticity are a nice way to break up the clinic day. Many places including where I work have a dedicated "injection" day where we do these kinds of things. Stopping seizures, myasthenia crisis, and multiple sclerosis is very fulfilling as you can often stop the disease in its tracks possibly for the rest of their lives.

Salary/job wise: Practice link named us as the #1 in demand specialty in terms of salary, jobs available and patient population. I had three contract offers. My subspecialty is neurophysiology so my offers, given the procedural reimbursement for mainly injections, EEGs and EMGs was always between $275,000 and $340,000. Given the essentially 8-5 Monday through Friday lifestyle of a neuromuscular neurologist this is not a bad deal.

I'm not sure how the salary figures listed are so low but I think it's because of the fact that they reflect a largely non-procedural general neurologist. As a community 85% of neurologists do a fellowship and most have some procedural component. This can change the game significantly and so the numbers I quoted above are the norm I've seen and can be more in private practice and fields like Neuroendovascular, sleep and pain.

Glad to see all of the responses!


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And yet the outcomes of every single subspecialty are extremely poor compared to most other fields. That's the kicker with neuro. Neuro-optho? Might help a tiny bit. Neuro-onc? Some of the highest mortality rates of any oncology patients. NICU? Prepare for more failures than success stories, and those failures fail hard. Epilepsy? Rarely will you ever stop their seizures, you're most often just buying them time between seizures (or worse yet, diagnosing them with a far more deadly cause than just epilepsy). Movement? Maybe they'll move a little better, but generally you're just buying time until Parkinson's or Huntington's gets them (or in non-Parkinsonian movement disorders, doing not a whole lot of good). Dementia speaks for itself. I mean... Damn, it's just a rough field. I'm not hating on it, it honestly interests me, but just thinking about the outcomes, dear God, it's bleak.
Oh please, do hate on it. We want to keep the competition low...at least until I match 😀
 
And yet the outcomes of every single subspecialty are extremely poor compared to most other fields. That's the kicker with neuro. Neuro-optho? Might help a tiny bit. Neuro-onc? Some of the highest mortality rates of any oncology patients. NICU? Prepare for more failures than success stories, and those failures fail hard. Epilepsy? Rarely will you ever stop their seizures, you're most often just buying them time between seizures (or worse yet, diagnosing them with a far more deadly cause than just epilepsy). Movement? Maybe they'll move a little better, but generally you're just buying time until Parkinson's or Huntington's gets them (or in non-Parkinsonian movement disorders, doing not a whole lot of good). Dementia speaks for itself. I mean... Damn, it's just a rough field. I'm not hating on it, it honestly interests me, but just thinking about the outcomes, dear God, it's bleak.
I get that, but honestly most of medicine is a losing battle. Nobody cures diabetes, COPD, asthma, Chrons, Celiac, rheumatoid arthritis, etc. The list goes on and on in medicine too. I agree with you that it might be a little worse in neuro, but since I find the bread and butter of neuro more interesting I can tolerate it. Also, I may be naive, but I do think there will be exciting changes coming to neuro over the course of my career. Look at recent developments like DBS for PD or ultrasound thalamotomy for essential tremor.
 
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We treat a variety of diseases and this is why hospitals everywhere are building large neuroscience centers and related facilities like an epilepsy monitoring unit, telestroke facilities, Neuro ICU, outpatient EMG/NCS labs and autonomic testing centers. I heard the "diagnosis and adios" stuff in medical school too but, as a neurologist, it's only very rarely that I can't provide ANY treatment.

I wrote a post about this once and I was reading about how neurologists were not able to provide much in the way of therapy, etc. ironically I had just finished pulling a clot out of a left MCA restoring total function to a previously plegic, numb and aphasia patient.

Migraines and the injections we do, along with EMG guided Botox for things like blephrospasm, dystopia and spasticity are a nice way to break up the clinic day. Many places including where I work have a dedicated "injection" day where we do these kinds of things. Stopping seizures, myasthenia crisis, and multiple sclerosis is very fulfilling as you can often stop the disease in its tracks possibly for the rest of their lives.

Salary/job wise: Practice link named us as the #1 in demand specialty in terms of salary, jobs available and patient population. I had three contract offers. My subspecialty is neurophysiology so my offers, given the procedural reimbursement for mainly injections, EEGs and EMGs was always between $275,000 and $340,000. Given the essentially 8-5 Monday through Friday lifestyle of a neuromuscular neurologist this is not a bad deal.

I'm not sure how the salary figures listed are so low but I think it's because of the fact that they reflect a largely non-procedural general neurologist. As a community 85% of neurologists do a fellowship and most have some procedural component. This can change the game significantly and so the numbers I quoted above are the norm I've seen and can be more in private practice and fields like Neuroendovascular, sleep and pain.

Glad to see all of the responses!


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Fantastic response! Its nice to hear someone enthusiastic about the specialty. You gave some really great examples of how much neurologists actually DO and I will file them away to use the next time someone tells me a neurologist doesn't treat anything.
 
I also think people don't realize how broad neurology is and that you can tailor your post residency experience to have whatever work/life balance you want. Neuro has more subspecialties than IM.
  • Neuro-opthalmology
  • Neuro-oncology
  • Neurointensive Care
  • Movement Disorders
  • Epilepsy
  • Neuromuscular
  • Headache
  • Vascular
  • Behavioral
  • Neuro-immunology
  • Dementia
  • Pain
  • Clinical Neurophysiology
  • Sleep
  • Endovascular/Interventional
  • Neurohospitalist
Neurology is an ocean. The variety of cases and the complexity of the pathophysiology are a huge draw for me. Today alone, I saw the following cases: Alzheimer's, diabetic neuropathy (ataxia), PD, Huntington's, Glomus Jugulare (presented as Bell's Palsy), bilateral Bell's Palsy (as a complication of GBS), carpal tunnel, migraine, stroke, cerebral palsy, spinal stenosis, MS, complex partial seizure, and I'm sure there are few more I can't remember. The other day I saw Soto's syndrome and finger paid secondary to Glomus tumor.
 
Hello everyone. Thought I'd start a new topic covering everything from the Med student level to the attending level. Salary, subspecialties, outlook/jobs, procedures, and what we do on the daily are some possible examples. It is the best specialty there is after all.


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You recently did residency so I also wanted to pick your brain about that experience:

What were the hours like? Worst/best service?

What was the stress level like? Worst/best service?

Did you leave residency feeling like you could practice general neurology or did you feel overwhelmed and like there was still too much to know. That is one of my fears about neurology.

What is the culture like? I felt like my attendings were pretty laid back. Rounds were long and some pimping occurred but it was all well intentioned and never malicious. I don't know if that is just my school or whether neuro is like "nice IM" everywhere. What were your co-residents like?

Did you do a categorical program or an advanced program and which would you suggest? Do you like general internal medicine or was your intern year painful?

Did you do research in medical school? Did your residency want you to publish? I feel like neuro has a split between the top top programs which have tons of MD PhDs who they are training to be the next generation of academic neurologists and then the rest of the programs which don't care much either way about research.
 
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Protip: There is an entire neurology forum on SDN. I'm its moderator. These questions and the overall discussion would be very well received by the commentariat over there. It's not only for residents to express their insecurities vis-a-vis board prep.

You're more likely to get people with long-term experience to see these questions over there than here, where we attendings rarely tread. That said, I understand if this is a safe space for y'all and you want to stick around here.
 
Protip: There is an entire neurology forum on SDN. I'm its moderator. These questions and the overall discussion would be very well received by the commentariat over there. It's not only for residents to express their insecurities vis-a-vis board prep.

You're more likely to get people with long-term experience to see these questions over there than here, where we attendings rarely tread. That said, I understand if this is a safe space for y'all and you want to stick around here.
I have often found the neurology subforum to be very helpful.

You have a point that it might be more helpful if it ended up being seen by more neuro residents and attendings in the subforum.
 
You recently did residency so I also wanted to pick your brain about that experience:

What were the hours like? Worst/best service?

What was the stress level like? Worst/best service?

Did you leave residency feeling like you could practice general neurology or did you feel overwhelmed and like there was still too much to know. That is one of my fears about neurology.

What is the culture like? I felt like my attendings were pretty laid back. Rounds were long and some pimping occurred but it was all well intentioned and never malicious. I don't know if that is just my school or whether neuro is like "nice IM" everywhere. What were your co-residents like?

Did you do a categorical program or an advanced program and which would you suggest? Do you like general internal medicine or was your intern year painful?

Did you do research in medical school? Did your residency want you to publish? I feel like neuro has a split between the top top programs which have tons of MD PhDs who they are training to be the next generation of academic neurologists and then the rest of the programs which don't care much either way about research.

Great questions! I am happy to answer them.

The hours were not bad relatively speaking. They also went by faster as a specialist as I was focused on the topic which I enjoyed the most and did not have to deal with generalist type stuff like arranging the follow ups for the specialists or the ECF paperwork etc. we took a 24 hour call once every 8 days or so staring in the third year but the second year did not have any overnight call. When I was on the outpatient services the hours were very relaxed and I was in at 8 and home at 5 on most days. Impatient services ran from 7am to 5pm. You signed out to the night person then. My favorite service was the admission team (we had a consult team and a primary admitting team). We had less patients but managed them completely and controlled the length of stay, consultations etc. We only admitted primary neurological issues (MS flare, myasthenia Gravis flare, seizure, etc) but managed them completely. It's hard to pick a worst service as I liked them all. I'd say Epilepsy was my least favorite service. I love reading EEGs but I just didn't like doing all day everyday.

The most stressful services are stroke and interventional. Neuro critical care not so much because you have a ton of help with attendings and consultants. The stroke alerts we run by the resident alone. We called the attending and precepted the case so they responded based on what you found (or possibly didn't find). You're always worried about the basilar artery occlusion (locked in syndrome). If you miss it...it's one of the most horrid things that can happen to someone. You Tpa pregnant women and although it's a huge win when you get to do it, it's stressful knowing they can bleed. Giving heparin to a pregnant women with a dissection and thrombus or venous thrombus is stressful for the same reasons. In the endovascular world you can and will eventually shower debris from a plaque downstream or can lose your coil mass from an aneurysm and have to scramble to remove it from a vessel or it will clot. That being said it was also thrilling, rewarding and fulfilling knowing that I was the only doc in he hospital at that time (on call) that could safely do these things and knowing that these horribly sick folks got a chance to fight back. The outcomes were nothing short of incredible most times.

Yes I felt that I could practice general neuro and even stroke after residency. I did chose a fellowship that focused on EMG because I don't think I had enough exposure to be competent enough to really serve my patients with that tool. You hear people say they'll just do basic EMG/NCS but the problem is that you grow the examination (test more nerve and muscles using different techniques) based on your findings (that carpal tunnel screen might actually be multi focal motor neuropathy with conduction block) and you'll either misdiagnose people or end up sending them to another person and putting them through the cost and discomfort of another study. Otherwise I felt prepared. That being said it helped that almost all of my faculty were sub specialized and drew in referrals for complicated patients and therapies (MS, neuro ophtho, movement D/o, headache, neuromuscular, epilepsy Clinics). This exposure really helped a ton.

The culture is very laid back generally speaking. Our job is so interesting that most love what they do and are happy with their work life balance. The pay is good and the hours aren't bad especially compared to other specialties. We are the #1 in demand specialty per practice link. other services like us (surgeons play nice when you stop their post or intraoperative patient from seizing or give IVIG to a myasthenia so they don't have a crisis during or after the procedure). We tend to really enjoy what we do. You also have the opportunity to do procedures which many of us enjoy. And again, we might be considered nice IM because we enjoy the specialist role where we can sign on, focus on our area and sign off without having to do the paper work, social work, etc. my hat goes off to IM for what they do.

I went to a categorical program but interviewed at advanced programs as well. The categorical saved me from a move and I am happy with that decision. My intern year was not bad. I was ready to be done at the end of the year but not because it was bad but simply because it's not what I love. The training was outstanding and I am glad neurology incorporates that year. It made me a better overall physician.

Research wise you are right that Neurology attracts some heavy duty researchers who are usually a bit older (either MD/PhD or another career in a science based field) but this is the minority. We don't expect that level of research as the majority of candidates are traditional students who went to undergrad and then on to medical school. I did two posters of case studies and did a bench research project the summer of my first year of medical school which did not get published. I would at least write up a case but bench research is not required. Hope this helps! Great questions.


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@Neuro Storm I have a few more questions for you or any other neurology attending/resident. I also asked about neurologist "jurisdiction" so I'd love to hear IM, peds, or FMs opinion as well. Sorry if this thread had turned into my personal Q and A, but I hope others interested are getting something out of my questions.

Question 1
What is the level of charting and busy work in neurology? It seemed to be a bit less than IM from an inpatient perspective, but I haven't really seen how much documentation and forms an outpatient neurologist deals with.

Question 2
I also was curious how often you got bored of neurology or burned out? I assume it happens sometimes and at some point in a career a job usually becomes routine, but it is my hope that neurology has enough weird and surprising things to keep me on my toes and interested. In other words, how is the balance of interesting to mundane? Will I want to pull my hair out treating headache and chronic pain day in and day out or will I have a zebra mixed in to keep me sane? Also, satisfaction seems to be low and burnout high in neurology. The survey's reporting this are probably inaccurate, so I was curious what your perspective on that is.

Question 3
I am also very interested to discuss the "jurisdiction" of neurology. I brought this up a long time ago in the neurology sub forum, but I am always seeking more responses. I'll list a lot of examples I've encountered in MS3 to give you an idea of what I mean.

-Neurological trauma seems to be handled by trauma, ED, and neurosurgery.
-Strokes in a place without a stroke attending. Does the ED doc take care of that?
-I am so confused about what medicine does and doesn't feel comfortable handling. I've seen them manage lots of neuro issues especially neurological infections. Is this institutional dependent or IM attending dependent? Who manages a myasthenia or MS flare in a community hospital without on staff neurologists?
-When does FM or peds feel they need to refer for things like migraines and neuropathy? I haven't been exposed to outpatient neurology or FM yet.
-Psych v. neuro. Tourette's and dementia. Who treats these in-between disorders?

Overall it seems like if neurologists didn't exist in the hospital or do rounds in the hospital it would still function alright. I'm sure quality of care would be lower though. Any papers to prove a neurologists value?

Question 4
I was also curious how you see the growing field of neurohospitalist playing out. Do you think that this model, like the other hospitalist models in OB and IM, will continue to grow and become a staple of hospitals? I don't know if I want to specialize because I like the breadth of neurology, so I often think about a hospitalist gig.
 
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I have a few questions as well.

-My exposure to neurology so far has only been with academic neurologists (one stroke, and one movement disorders), for both, their clinic time was limited to one day a week and surprisingly they were able to spend an hour, often more with each patient. I liked this because they both had excellent relationships with their patients and the neuro exams and check-up inventories for clinical trials were extensive.
  • Is that typical for academic neurologists? What about private practice, what would be the average time spent with each patient?
  • What is your typical day like?
-You mentioned you sub specialized in neurophysiology and one of the reasons you like it is the ability to do procedures.
  • Did you consider any other subspecialties? Did you go into medical school wanting neurology? When did you realize you were set on neuro?
  • Did you ever consider radiology in medical school, to go down the path of NIR, or endovascular surgical neuroradiology, etc?

Hello everyone. Thought I'd start a new topic covering everything from the Med student level to the attending level. Salary, subspecialties, outlook/jobs, procedures, and what we do on the daily are some possible examples. It is the best specialty there is after all.


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off topic, but do any of you have tips for learning neuro? i am starting that next semester and am scared

never taken any neuro before
 
off topic, but do any of you have tips for learning neuro? i am starting that next semester and am scared

never taken any neuro before

It's like anything else. Work at it enough and you will be fine. Neuroanatomy is somewhat difficult for many people but I found it enjoyable. Once you just commit the pathways to memory it's a fun puzzle. I suggest drawing them out on blank paper and making yourself draw the paths with the decussations daily. I recommend Blumenfeld's "Neuroanatomy through Clinical Cases".

Good luck.


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It's like anything else. Work at it enough and you will be fine. Neuroanatomy is somewhat difficult for many people but I found it enjoyable. Once you just commit the pathways to memory it's a fun puzzle. I recommend Blumenfeld's "Neuroanatomy through Clinical Cases".

Good luck.


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what about textbooks for learning it the first time around?
 
@Neuro Storm I have a few more questions for you or any other neurology attending/resident. I also asked about neurologist "jurisdiction" so I'd love to hear IM, peds, or FMs opinion as well. Sorry if this thread had turned into my personal Q and A, but I hope others interested are getting something out of my questions.

Question 1
What is the level of charting and busy work in neurology? It seemed to be a bit less than IM from an inpatient perspective, but I haven't really seen how much documentation and forms an outpatient neurologist deals with.

Question 2
I also was curious how often you got bored of neurology or burned out? I assume it happens sometimes and at some point in a career a job usually becomes routine, but it is my hope that neurology has enough weird and surprising things to keep me on my toes and interested. In other words, how is the balance of interesting to mundane? Will I want to pull my hair out treating headache and chronic pain day in and day out or will I have a zebra mixed in to keep me sane? Also, satisfaction seems to be low and burnout high in neurology. The survey's reporting this are probably inaccurate, so I was curious what your perspective on that is.

Question 3
I am also very interested to discuss the "jurisdiction" of neurology. I brought this up a long time ago in the neurology sub forum, but I am always seeking more responses. I'll list a lot of examples I've encountered in MS3 to give you an idea of what I mean.

-Neurological trauma seems to be handled by trauma, ED, and neurosurgery.
-Strokes in a place without a stroke attending. Does the ED doc take care of that?
-I am so confused about what medicine does and doesn't feel comfortable handling. I've seen them manage lots of neuro issues especially neurological infections. Is this institutional dependent or IM attending dependent? Who manages a myasthenia or MS flare in a community hospital without on staff neurologists?
-When does FM or peds feel they need to refer for things like migraines and neuropathy? I haven't been exposed to outpatient neurology or FM yet.
-Psych v. neuro. Tourette's and dementia. Who treats these in-between disorders?

Overall it seems like if neurologists didn't exist in the hospital or do rounds in the hospital it would still function alright. I'm sure quality of care would be lower though. Any papers to prove a neurologists value?

Question 4
I was also curious how you see the growing field of neurohospitalist playing out. Do you think that this model, like the other hospitalist models in OB and IM, will continue to grow and become a staple of hospitals? I don't know if I want to specialize because I like the breadth of neurology, so I often think about a hospitalist gig.

Thanks for your questions!

The level of charting is always something you can expect to do when seeing any patient, doing any procedure or managing a telephone encounter. So in that regard every speciality has to perform regular charting. I think I have decent insight into this questions as I have friends from many specialties and I myself was an internal medicine resident my intern year (if you did not know, Neurology is a four year program with the first year being completed as either a preliminary medicine resident or a transitional year resident). Neurology, and most specialties outside of general specialties (IM, Peds, Family, etc) do not have to manage the extensive primary care issues that primary care docs do. This can be a massive task in a large practice. Everything from Handicapped passes, walkers (and which one/what kind), driver license issues for the geriatric populations, school/work notes, refills, Med recs, PT/OT, etc falls on your hands. You place all consults (or the vast majority. I'll go ahead and consult a subspecialty of neurology or neurosurgery if I need their input). As a PCP you have to implement most recs (for example, I'll start the antiepileptic, headache, Parkinson's meds, etc, but if I hear a murmur or they have a high creatine, then I send them to their PCP and write something. Like "Pcp may consider nephrology input for the patient elevated creat level"). Also when a patient is admitted specialists like neurology write a much more brief and focused note then the massive H&Ps detailing every Med, condition, surgery, image, etc that primary teams like IM, Peds have to write. In that regard neurology is great. I have templates for most things and can finish a note quickly.

I never get burned out...Neurology is the Wild West friend. We see the most interesting and unbelievable things happen on a regular basis. Take a clot out of a pregnant woman's left MCA, stop someone's seizures or MS so that they go on to do anything they want in life, stop a Myasthenic or GBS patient from dying using plasmapheresis or IvIG, make a diagnosis that no one else has even heard of and then say something awesome like "elementary exam revealed pure word deafness which narrowed the differential diagnosis to those diseases causing cortical deafness", coil an aneurysm, embolize a vessel feeding a brain tumor which shrinks it small enough so that the surgeon won't hit the language areas anymore when they attempt to remove it, perform a muscle or nerve biopsy, read an EEG and diagnose non-convulse seizures, complete an EMG and change the "suspect carpal tunnel" referral to a "Multi focal motor neuropathy with conduction block, perform a trans cranial Doppler, intubate someone in the NsICU perform a lumbar puncture on a new born in the NICU and save their life and development, perform EMG guided Botox into tiny or dangerous areas to alleviate movement disorders, spasms, spasticity, dystopia or rigidity or, lastly, stop the debilitating migraines of a single working parent who has to drive in the sunlight while in excruciating pain because they have a child a school by using Botox or other expert approaches including nerve blocks, infusions and medications. All while enjoying great pay, the number one in demand specialty per practice link and relatively 8-5 hours. No way do I get burned out.

The jurisdiction of neurology is the nervous system on paper but we are called into al types of medical, pediatric, obstetric or surgical situations. Head trauma is managed by neurosurgery if they go to surgery but many do not (if they are not injured enough to merit it or if they are too injured to benefit from it) and then they go to the Neuro Icu or the neurology advanced care unit ("the impatient neurology ward"). Also we are involved in head trauma if there was any syncope, seizure, stroke, dissection or thrombus or aneurysm/AVM involved in the trauma. We are also called for prophylactic seizure medication management. We are often called to see athletes with concussion, plexopathies, stretch or other peripheral nerve injury and for post concussive syndrome.

In your scenario where there is not a neurologist then whatever doctor is there "ED, IM, etc) will usually call us and arrange transfer. Remember that the new guidelines state that stroke should bypass all non-stroke centers to get to a primary stroke center or stroke ready center (has CT, telestroke and TPA capabilities with ability to immediately transfer to a stroke center after tPA or non tPA decision is made) so that scenario is not as common. We perform telestroke, tele neuro imaging, and tele EEG for many rural hospitals so most hospitals have access to us and use us. Most are happy to transfer a complicated neurology or even a more straight forward one to see a neurologist. Doctors are not cavalier at the expense of our patients and we all want the best trained person available for that situation to see the patient and help them. I have people referred to cardiology when I hear a pathological murmur, it's not a pride thing. Internists, ED docs, etc are no different. They are generally happy to consult neurology to put themselves, the patient and their families are ease when the nervous system may be potentially involved.

Remember a neurologist can also admit a patient to the hospital myself instead of consulting to the hospitalist if I wanted to. In that cause I would have full jurisdiction.

Psych cases that are not totally straight forward usually merit a neurological evaluation as you wouldn't want to miss a neuropsychiatric issue from a systemic or neurological disease. Psychiatric diseases are typically a diagnosis of exclusion to ensure the safety of the patient.

I do not agree that the hospital would function just fine. We can earn multiple accreditations for the hospital such as various levels of stroke certification, epilepsy center certification, MDA/ALS, MS center, to name a few. Without us you can't get them and if you don't then other hospitals will and the hospital will not gain in reputation or financially. We are often a core rotation or elective in medical school so without a neurologist on staff if would be hard for an academic institute to associate with the hospital. Also their would be no EEG or neuro critical care resulting in tons of transfers. If you see the trends around the world, neuro ICUs, epilepsy monitoring units, sleep centers, interventional pain centers (yes you can do pain and sleep from neuro and yes we do match these spots), Neuro interventional units (yes from neurology, all three where I trained were neurology) and headache centers to name a few are being built everywhere. These facilities require, often multi million dollar investments and people don't invest that kind of money into specialities that are not needed. Additionally, in many communities, the standard of care (what the average physician in that community would do in that situation or a similar situation) would be to have a neurologist involved in certain illnesses. Going against the standard of care is not something any of us would typically advise. Having a specialist involved in the area that he or she trained does not make the patient less safe and often results in shorter length of stay and better outcome.

The neurohospitalist field is growing rapidly. We have two at my hospital. They both work two weeks monthly and make 305K. One also has a fellowship in sleep so he reads studies for one of his off weeks and then takes a week off. He said he takes home another 100k for the sleep studies. It's not a bad gig. You could do it as a general neurologist limiting your training to four years after medical school or try to add value to your contract and expand your skills in a specific area by doing a fellowship.

Thank you for these question. I hope this helped!


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Last edited:
Thanks for your questions!

The level of charting is always something you can expect to do when seeing any patient, doing any procedure or managing a telephone encounter. So in that regard every speciality has to perform regular charting. I think I have decent insight into this questions as I have friends from many specialties and I myself was an internal medicine resident my intern year (if you did not know, Neurology is a four year program with the first year being completed as either a preliminary medicine resident or a transitional year resident). Neurology, and most specialties outside of general specialties (IM, Peds, Family, etc) do not have to manage the extensive primary care issues that primary care docs do. This can be a massive task in a large practice. Everything from Handicapped passes, walkers (and which one/what kind), driver license issues for the geriatric populations, school/work notes, refills, Med recs, PT/OT, etc falls on your hands. You place all consults (or the vast majority. I'll go ahead and consult a subspecialty of neurology or neurosurgery if I need their input). As a PCP you have to implement most recs (for example, I'll start the antiepileptic, headache, Parkinson's meds, etc, but if I hear a murmur or they have a high creatine, then I send them to their PCP and write something. Like "Pcp may consider nephrology input for the patient elevated creat level"). Also when a patient is admitted specialists like neurology write a much more brief and focused note then the massive H&Ps detailing every Med, condition, surgery, image, etc that primary teams like IM, Peds have to write. In that regard neurology is great. I have templates for most things and can finish a note quickly.

I never get burned out...Neurology is the Wild West friend. We see the most interesting and unbelievable things happen on a regular basis. Take a clot out of a pregnant woman's left MCA, stop someone's seizures or MS so that they go on to do anything they want in life, stop a Myasthenic or GBS patient from dying using plasmapheresis or IvIG, make a diagnosis that no one else has even heard of and then say something awesome like "elementary exam revealed pure word deafness which narrowed the differential diagnosis to those diseases causing cortical deafness", coil an aneurysm, embolize a vessel feeding a brain tumor which shrinks it small enough so that the surgeon won't hit the language areas anymore when they attempt to remove it, perform a muscle or nerve biopsy, read an EEG and diagnose non-convulse seizures, complete an EMG and change the "suspect carpal tunnel" referral to a "Multi focal motor neuropathy with conduction block, perform a trans cranial Doppler, intubate someone in the NsICU perform a lumbar puncture on a new born in the NICU and save their life and development, perform EMG guided Botox into tiny or dangerous areas to alleviate movement disorders, spasms, spasticity, dystopia or rigidity or, lastly, stop the debilitating migraines of a single working parent who has to drive in the sunlight while in excruciating pain because they have a child a school by using Botox or other expert approaches including nerve blocks, infusions and medications. All while enjoying great pay, the number one in demand specialty per practice link and relatively 8-5 hours. No way do I get burned out.

The jurisdiction of neurology is the nervous system on paper but we are called into al types of medical, pediatric, obstetric or surgical situations. Head trauma is managed by neurosurgery if they go to surgery but many do not (if they are not injured enough to merit it or if they are too injured to benefit from it) and then they go to the Neuro Icu or the neurology advanced care unit ("the impatient neurology ward"). Also we are involved in head trauma if there was any syncope, seizure, stroke, dissection or thrombus or aneurysm/AVM involved in the trauma. We are also called for prophylactic seizure medication management. We are often called to see athletes with concussion, plexopathies, stretch or other peripheral nerve injury and for post concussive syndrome.

In your scenario where there is not a neurologist then whatever doctor is there "ED, IM, etc) will usually call us and arrange transfer. Remember that the new guidelines state that stroke should bypass all non-stroke centers to get to a primary stroke center or stroke ready center (has CT, telestroke and TPA capabilities with ability to immediately transfer to a stroke center after tPA or non tPA decision is made) so that scenario is not as common. We perform telestroke, tele neuro imaging, and tele EEG for many rural hospitals so most hospitals have access to us and use us. Most are happy to transfer a complicated neurology or even a more straight forward one to see a neurologist. Doctors are not cavalier at the expense of our patients and we all want the best trained person available for that situation to see the patient and help them. I have people referred to cardiology when I hear a pathological murmur, it's not a pride thing. Internists, ED docs, etc are no different. They are generally happy to consult neurology to put themselves, the patient and their families are ease when the nervous system may be potentially involved.

Remember a neurologist can also admit a patient to the hospital myself instead of consulting to the hospitalist if I wanted to. In that cause I would have full jurisdiction.

Psych cases that are not totally straight forward usually merit a neurological evaluation as you wouldn't want to miss a neuropsychiatric issue from a systemic or neurological disease. Psychiatric diseases are typically a diagnosis of exclusion to ensure the safety of the patient.

I do not agree that the hospital would function just fine. We can earn multiple accreditations for the hospital such as various levels of stroke certification, epilepsy center certification, MDA/ALS, MS center, to name a few. Without us you can't get them and if you don't then other hospitals will and the hospital will not gain in reputation or financially. We are often a core rotation or elective in medical school so without a neurologist on staff if would be hard for an academic institute to associate with the hospital. Also their would be no EEG or neuro critical care resulting in tons of transfers. If you see the trends around the world, neuro ICUs, epilepsy monitoring units, sleep centers, interventional pain centers (yes you can do pain and sleep from neuro and yes we do match these spots), Neuro interventional units (yes from neurology, all three where I trained were neurology) and headache centers to name a few are being built everywhere. These facilities require, often multi million dollar investments and people don't invest that kind of money into specialities that are not needed. Additionally, in many communities, the standard of care (what the average physician in that community would do in that situation or a similar situation) would be to have a neurologist involved in certain illnesses. Going against the standard of care is not something any of us would typically advise. Having a specialist involved in the area that he or she trained does not make the patient less safe and often results in shorter length of stay and better outcome.

The neurohospitalist field is growing rapidly. We have two at my hospital. They both work two weeks monthly and make 305K. One also has a fellowship in sleep so he reads studies for one of his off weeks and then takes a week off. He said he takes home another 100k for the sleep studies. It's not a bad gig. You could do it as a general neurologist limiting your training to four years after medical school or try to add value to your contract and expand your skills in a specific area by doing a fellowship.

Thank you for these question. I hope this helped!


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You're the best! Thanks. This is what SDN is for.
 
Why do neurologists always ask for an mri for a stroke? I've never seen it change management
 
Why do neurologists always ask for an mri for a stroke? I've never seen it change management

It does. The type of stroke can change management (embolic appearing, lacunar, thrombotic, etc) for example if likely embolic then we would go for a TEE and if it's negative we would place an event monitor or loop recorder for possible afib. If they have it then we would use anticoagulation instead of anti-platelets. This is also the case for a vegetation or mural thrombus. We would hepranize a venous clot which is poorly seen on a CT. Also for wake up strokes we would not give tPA as he time of onset is unknown. We will get a clot in the cath lab within 6 hours and longer for a basilar clot (to prevent locked in syndrome). We can get a stroke protocol MRI which has a diffusion and Apparent diffusion coefficient (ADC) along with a FLAIR. We use the diffusion and the ADC to determine if there is an ongoing ischemic stroke. A stroke shows up on FLAIR in around 6 hours. If we can see the stroke on flair we manage medically but if there is not a stroke evident on FLAIR (providing there is one on diffusion/ADC) then we go to the cath lab as it is under 6 hours old. Also we include an MRA in the stroke package to show us where the clot is as well as to visualize the vessels for endovascular planning. That's quite a change in management. Some people can not have iodinated CT contrast and so MRA head and neck can be pursued. Lastly, CT is limited and can miss small stroke or small tumors. It is an important part of the work up.


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Last edited:
Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant for an ischemic stroke that happened a long time past the window. Patient came in with stroke on ct over a day ago; we are doing workup and think it's likely embolic. I already have pt on tele looking for a fib, I'm already getting a tte but neuro asked for an mri and I was wondering why.
 
Which one is preferred, doing a preliminary year or a transitional year?

Also, if I'm applying to advanced neuro programs, when time comes for ranking, are there two rank lists, one for neuro programs and one for the preliminary/transitional year?
 
Which one is preferred, doing a preliminary year or a transitional year?

Also, if I'm applying to advanced neuro programs, when time comes for ranking, are there two rank lists, one for neuro programs and one for the preliminary/transitional year?

Neither is preferred from my POV. Just as long as it fulfills the internal medicine requirement for Neurology (there's a certain amount of core internal medicine that has to be completed during the year). If you do a transitional year then you just have to be sure it fulfills the requirement as those programs tend to include ob/gym, outpatient stuff like rheum and Derm and surgical rotations which won't count towards the requirement. Most if not all categorical programs include a preliminary internal Med year and not a transitional year.

If you apply to advanced programs then yes there are two rank lists.


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Last edited:
Sorry I should have been more specific. I meant for an ischemic stroke that happened a long time past the window. Patient came in with stroke on ct over a day ago; we are doing workup and think it's likely embolic. I already have pt on tele looking for a fib, I'm already getting a tte but neuro asked for an mri and I was wondering why.

It's hard to know the rational for this very specific instance when I'm not there talking to the vascular neurologist involved.

Just out of pure speculation and past experience I can say that sometimes you can see the stroke on CT but it doesn't fully account for the patients symptoms (example, if a patient is obtunded but only has a right MCA stroke, that stroke does not account for the patients symptoms). MRI can find lesions that are missed by CT. Also we can find other structural lesions like small cortical lesions or other things that may cause seizures (mesial temporal sclerosis or hippocampal atrophy/asymmetry). Stroke and seizure can occur in tandem quite frequently. We always want to make sure that we find the lesions that fully account for the patients symptoms. You only get one CNS and missing small things can be absolutely unforgiving. I would ask the neurology attending to provide education. Look, not to sound arrogant but we understand Neurology on a level far beyond what is taught in medical school and certainly well beyond what a Generalist would learn in residency so if they are ordering it they probably know something the general team doesn't 😉. It's worth asking as it may be an educational opportunity. Good question!


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Hi @Neuro Storm! I'm not sure if you missed my questions because I didn't @ you or quote you. But would love to hear from you. I edited it with a quote so it's easier to find.


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I have a few questions as well.

-My exposure to neurology so far has only been with academic neurologists (one stroke, and one movement disorders), for both, their clinic time was limited to one day a week and surprisingly they were able to spend an hour, often more with each patient. I liked this because they both had excellent relationships with their patients and the neuro exams and check-up inventories for clinical trials were extensive.
  • Is that typical for academic neurologists? What about private practice, what would be the average time spent with each patient?
  • What is your typical day like?
-You mentioned you sub specialized in neurophysiology and one of the reasons you like it is the ability to do procedures.
  • Did you consider any other subspecialties? Did you go into medical school wanting neurology? When did you realize you were set on neuro?
  • Did you ever consider radiology in medical school, to go down the path of NIR, or endovascular surgical neuroradiology, etc?

Hi! Sorry I missed your question! I must've looked right past it. I'm happy to respond.

I'm happy to hear you've had a nice experience with Neurology so far. The one day weekly in clinic is more typical for stroke as they spend most of their time on the inpatient service. For movement in academic medicine I've seen three days weekly with some time spent covering the general inpatient service. Obviously on private practice the movement docs see people in clinic everyday and some spend time in the OR to control the placement of deep brain stimulators with the neurosurgical team. Many have dedicated clinic days for deep brain stimulator programming and modification along with Botox. The time spent with each patient at many academic centers would be 1 hour or 45 minutes for a new patient and 30 minutes for a follow up. The private practice docs can see follow ups in 20 minute or 15 minute slots. An EMG is a longer slot usually one hour or more depending on the planned study and may be much shorter for procedures like occipital nerve blocks, Botox, etc.

My typical day depends on the day really. I see general Neurology patients two days weekly and recruit people during that process for EMG, autonomic testing, Botox (EMG guided and for headache or movement disorders) and for ambulatory EEG (my practice hooks up 5 ambulatory EEGs weekly for 24-72 hours depending on the situation). We hook them up on Fridays or Mondays (some people don't want to wear it on their weekend and others don't want it during he work week so we offer those two options).

I have a dedicated EMG day on Weds where I do 8 studies in a day (four before lunch and four afterwards). On Thursday I have patients stacked up for injections (tons of headache stuff such as occipital, supraorbital or temporal auricular blocks etc, as well as Botox with and without EMG guidance). These are about 10-15 minute slots. Also on Thursday I may crank out left over EMGs if we can't fit them into the Wednesday spots. On Friday I stay home and read the EEGs from the week and bill for them and likewise perform administrative duties and type out any EMG reports that are left over.

I cover the inpatient neurology service with residents for one week out of every two months and teach selected topics to the medical students (I am not full time faculty and am part of a private group but we cover the hospital where our nearby medical schools students and residents work so we help out as we all love working with the trainees).

I did not plan on Neurology in medical school. I knew I wasn't going into Peds but that's all. I knew at the end of third year that I loved neurology because I love the exam, the cool tools we use, the thought process, procedures, working with medicine/OB/surgical patients and the pay/lifestyle. I liked procedures but didn't want to be trapped in the OR all day. I also liked radiology but wanted to see patients and I liked IM but didn't like primary care or being restricted to just adult non-surgical and non OB patients. I also knew I wanted a specialists level of knowledge rather than a broad and more superficial one. Additionally I liked ophtho but thought the specialty was too narrow and wasn't ready to give up my stethoscope so I went for neurology as it is a broad specialty but nonetheless a specialty and offers great pay/lifestyle while giving the opportunity to perform many types of procedures.

Lastly, I liked stroke and neuroendovascular but the hours were tougher and I loved neuromuscular medicine and EMG more than everything else so I went the neurophysiology route with an EMG "Major" (in neurophysiology you can do a 6mo EEG/6mo EMG split know as the general track or can do a 9mo/3mo track focusing on either EEG or EMG). I did this because I also wanted some more formal training in reading ambulatory EEGs which has served me well as I stated it allowed me to read from home on Fridays. I sleep in, see the family and still bill for services while wearing sweat pants at home in addition to being able to perform EMG/NCS.







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Last edited:
@Neuro Storm

Do you think that, in the future, inpatient neurology will be exclusively handled by neurohospitalists, while neuro-specialists are going to handle the outpatient aspect of the field? Kinda like the route IM took when hospital medicine got divorced from outpatient general medicine, and now we have inpatient almost exclusively being handled by IM and outpatient by FM?

I'm a little concerned about this because, although I love outpatient neurology, I also like to have some inpatient component to my career. I like to have a set up similar to my neurology preceptor (a neurophysiologist, btw). He rounds on a nearby community hospital every morning for couple hours then he shows up to the clinic and see a large volume of patients. He also does ~4 EMGs/NCS's and reads few EEGs on daily basis. He also shares calls with his practice partners.

Do you think the above practice model has a place in the future? I deeply enjoy the mix of inpatient/outpatient/consults/procedures, and would hate to be restricted to doing the same thing all week long.
 
@Neuro Storm

Do you think that, in the future, inpatient neurology will be exclusively handled by neurohospitalists, while neuro-specialists are going to handle the outpatient aspect of the field? Kinda like the route IM took when hospital medicine got divorced from outpatient general medicine, and now we have inpatient almost exclusively being handled by IM and outpatient by FM?

I'm a little concerned about this because, although I love outpatient neurology, I also like to have some inpatient component to my career. I like to have a set up similar to my neurology preceptor (a neurophysiologist, btw). He rounds on a nearby community hospital every morning for couple hours then he shows up to the clinic and see a large volume of patients. He also does ~4 EMGs/NCS's and reads few EEGs on daily basis. He also shares calls with his practice partners.

Do you think the above practice model has a place in the future? I deeply enjoy the mix of inpatient/outpatient/consults/procedures, and would hate to be restricted to doing the same thing all week long.
I second that question. I feel the same way.
 
Which one is preferred, doing a preliminary year or a transitional year?

Also, if I'm applying to advanced neuro programs, when time comes for ranking, are there two rank lists, one for neuro programs and one for the preliminary/transitional year?
So there are no categorical positions in neuro! What if someone gets matched into an advanced position and fails to match into a preliminary or transitional year... That's an added stress trying to SOAP into a preliminary or transitional year. This scenario happened to one of my friends in the 2016 match... (not for neurology).

Maybe someone can explain to me why it does not make sense for all programs to be categorical...
 
We have categorical programs. I trained in one. In fact it is becoming the norm and I think the advanced positions will be phased out at large centers in the future.


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@Neuro Storm

Do you think that, in the future, inpatient neurology will be exclusively handled by neurohospitalists, while neuro-specialists are going to handle the outpatient aspect of the field? Kinda like the route IM took when hospital medicine got divorced from outpatient general medicine, and now we have inpatient almost exclusively being handled by IM and outpatient by FM?

I'm a little concerned about this because, although I love outpatient neurology, I also like to have some inpatient component to my career. I like to have a set up similar to my neurology preceptor (a neurophysiologist, btw). He rounds on a nearby community hospital every morning for couple hours then he shows up to the clinic and see a large volume of patients. He also does ~4 EMGs/NCS's and reads few EEGs on daily basis. He also shares calls with his practice partners.

Do you think the above practice model has a place in the future? I deeply enjoy the mix of inpatient/outpatient/consults/procedures, and would hate to be restricted to doing the same thing all week long.

The nice thing about neurology is that there only about 15,000 of us. This is much different then family Med or internal medicine which can train 30+ residents per class depending on the program. There aren't enough of us to really ever say this will only be handled by this type of neurologist in terms of inpatient coverage. The job market is wide open for neurology and you can negotiate almost any mix of inpatient and outpatient that you'd like. My schedule, quoted in another post, was hand designed by me. I wanted to have clinic days, procedural days and wanted to perform autonomic studies and Read EEGs in addition to EMG. The practice made a contract and voila. I also wanted inpatient work because o enjoy it and so I cover the service with residents for one week out of two months (I could have asked for more or less).

Specialties allow you to do this. We are relatively rare and in demand and so you can tailor your schedule to almost anything you can dream of. I have friends that do neurohospitalist work and sleep, etc. also, while you can do a neurohospitalist fellowship it is not required or expected so any neurologist can work as a neurohospitalist if they want. Usually you cover for two weeks monthly and so you could fill your off time with outpatient work if you wanted. Two vascular/stroke neurologists I work with work in general outpatient neurology climic when not managing the stroke inpatient service or in stroke climic. They do blocks, read EEGs and one does infusions for headaches and tysabri (he trained in residency with an MS guru and he feels comfortable managing tysabri so he does it without having completed a neuro immunology fellowship because...in Neurology...you really can customize your practice to almost anything you can imagine and you will have a booming practice almost anywhere in the country (so many patients and not Many Neurologists relatively speaking).


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Hi! Sorry I missed your question! I must've looked right past it. I'm happy to respond.

I'm happy to hear you've had a nice experience with Neurology so far. The one day weekly in clinic is more typical for stroke as they spend most of their time on the inpatient service. For movement in academic medicine I've seen three days weekly with some time spent covering the general inpatient service. Obviously on private practice the movement docs see people in clinic everyday and some spend time in the OR to control the placement of deep brain stimulators with the neurosurgical team. Many have dedicated clinic days for deep brain stimulator programming and modification along with Botox. The time spent with each patient at many academic centers would be 1 hour or 45 minutes for a new patient and 30 minutes for a follow up. The private practice docs can see follow ups in 20 minute or 15 minute slots. An EMG is a longer slot usually one hour or more depending on the planned study and may be much shorter for procedures like occipital nerve blocks, Botox, etc.

My typical day depends on the day really. I see general Neurology patients two days weekly and recruit people during that process for EMG, autonomic testing, Botox (EMG guided and for headache or movement disorders) and for ambulatory EEG (my practice hooks up 5 ambulatory EEGs weekly for 24-72 hours depending on the situation). We hook them up on Fridays or Mondays (some people don't want to wear it on their weekend and others don't want it during he work week so we offer those two options).

I have a dedicated EMG day on Weds where I do 8 studies in a day (four before lunch and four afterwards). On Thursday I have patients stacked up for injections (tons of headache stuff such as occipital, supraorbital or temporal auricular blocks etc, as well as Botox with and without EMG guidance). These are about 10-15 minute slots. Also on Thursday I may crank out left over EMGs if we can't fit them into the Wednesday spots. On Friday I stay home and read the EEGs from the week and bill for them and likewise perform administrative duties and type out any EMG reports that are left over.

I cover the inpatient neurology service with residents for one week out of every two months and teach selected topics to the medical students (I am not full time faculty and am part of a private group but we cover the hospital where our nearby medical schools students and residents work so we help out as we all love working with the trainees).

I did not plan on Neurology in medical school. I knew I wasn't going into Peds but that's all. I knew at the end of third year that I loved neurology because I love the exam, the cool tools we use, the thought process, procedures, working with medicine/OB/surgical patients and the pay/lifestyle. I liked procedures but didn't want to be trapped in the OR all day. I also liked radiology but wanted to see patients and I liked IM but didn't like primary care or being restricted to just adult non-surgical and non OB patients. I also knew I wanted a specialists level of knowledge rather than a broad and more superficial one. Additionally I liked ophtho but thought the specialty was too narrow and wasn't ready to give up my stethoscope so I went for neurology as it is a broad specialty but nonetheless a specialty and offers great pay/lifestyle while giving the opportunity to perform many types of procedures.

Lastly, I liked stroke and neuroendovascular but the hours were tougher and I loved neuromuscular medicine and EMG more than everything else so I went the neurophysiology route with an EMG "Major" (in neurophysiology you can do a 6mo EEG/6mo EMG split know as the general track or can do a 9mo/3mo track focusing on either EEG or EMG). I did this because I also wanted some more formal training in reading ambulatory EEGs which has served me well as I stated it allowed me to read from home on Fridays. I sleep in, see the family and still bill for services while wearing sweat pants at home in addition to being able to perform EMG/NCS.







Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Thank you so much for the detailed response!

My mentor uses tDCS and TMS and I'm interested in that but also in deep brain because I am fascinated by Parkinson's treatments. It's good to have a few different perspectives on the field and it's various specialties. I am drawn by procedures, but I also have done a number of neuro imaging studies and I love imaging techniques too.

I know for sure I want a specialist level of knowledge and I love neuro and all my experiences with the field so far, I hope that once I am "in the trenches" it continues to hold true because I am absolutely fascinated with the brain and have been for years.

I am intrigued by interventional, but obviously have no experience with the three pathways so I think my goal would be to figure out if NIR/ESN would match my career goals when it comes time to choose. I read your comments earlier on the field and looked into the training paths for neurosurgery, neurology, and radiology to get there.

How would you advise approaching medical school if you think early on you might be interested in something very competitive like NIR?. I know everyone says you don't know yet and you will likely change your mind. However, waiting until 3rd year to seek opportunities/research/mentors doesn't seem conducive to being competitive for match if at that point I decided I wanted neurosurgery, for example.

Would you advise going into school with enthusiasm for a specific field and seeking out opportunities? And if so, does you gear yourself towards the most competitive/difficult speciality as default? In my head, because I am interested in NIR I should point myself towards neurosurgery since having research in NSG is important to match. If I then decided to do neuro would I need to have neurology-specific research to match well? Or would having research experience in even basic neuroscience be helpful anyway?

Again I know I should keep an open mind but I will also be deciding between schools based on 5-yr programs that have formal research years (ex PSTP at Pitt and JMP at UCSF) and I will have to select mentors for the summer pre-matriculation so in thinking about what school, I am trying to think of what kind of research I should be seeking/ needing to do and comparing what schools would provide those opportunities.

Lastly, do you have any opinions on the three paths to NIR?


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@Neuro Storm

Did your residency program interview/match DO applicants? If so, what kind of stats do they look for (ballpark step1/step2)? How important is having research/publications to get interviewed/ranked?

thank you,
 
@Neuro Storm

Did your residency program interview/match DO applicants? If so, what kind of stats do they look for (ballpark step1/step2)? How important is having research/publications to get interviewed/ranked?

thank you,


Hello! Yes we did interview DO candidates. I had a DO in my class in fact. The average step scores for neurology (Matched applicants) as listed by the USMLE are a 230 step 1 and a 241 step 2 CK. We always prefer the best of all worlds, so, if you came with a solid step score as well as research, solid LORs, a second language, and extracurricular activities to name a few, you would be at the top of the pack. We do not require he perfect applicant however. Our program (I still keep up with the director where I trained) looks at a minimum score and if you are above that you can be considered for an interview. Again...we will trade off scores for supplementation with research and other activities as scores aren't everything. Likewise if you roll up with a 260 on each step then we probably won't mind too much if you only completed a single research project etc. I will say that as an Allopath myself..I am happy to except DOs but would like to see strong applications because DOs have their own residency programs and so if I'm going to give up a seat from an MD student at an Allopathic program, the DO should be a strong applicant comparatively. The research alone per se is not a make or break thing although I'd definitely do at least one case report/ project prior to graduation! Good luck.


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Hello! Yes we did interview DO candidates. I had a DO in my class in fact. The average step scores for neurology (Matched applicants) as listed by the USMLE are a 230 step 1 and a 241 step 2 CK. We always prefer the best of all worlds, so, if you came with a solid step score as well as research, solid LORs, a second language, and extracurricular activities to name a few, you would be at the top of the pack. We do not require he perfect applicant however. Our program (I still keep up with the director where I trained) looks at a minimum score and if you are above that you can be considered for an interview. Again...we will trade off scores for supplementation with research and other activities as scores aren't everything. Likewise if you roll up with a 260 on each step then we probably won't mind too much if you only completed a single research project etc. I will say that as an Allopath myself..I am happy to except DOs but would like to see strong applications because DOs have their own residency programs and so if I'm going to give up a seat from an MD student at an Allopathic program, the DO should be a strong applicant comparatively. The research alone per se is not a make or break thing although I'd definitely do at least one case report/ project prior to graduation! Good luck.


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So that I can put this information in context, would you mind sharing the type/tier of program you went to? Was it a big name research powerhouse? Im just trying to gauge whether what you outlined is what neuro is like at the top or more in the middle.

Another question I had. With all the talk on here lately about midlevel creep, how do you think this affects neuro?
 
So that I can put this information in context, would you mind sharing the type/tier of program you went to? Was it a big name research powerhouse? Im just trying to gauge whether what you outlined is what neuro is like at the top or more in the middle.

Another question I had. With all the talk on here lately about midlevel creep, how do you think this affects neuro?

Great questions.

Firstly I trained at a large but middle of the pack institute for residency. I did my fellowship at a huge Ivy League program. I've gotten to see both sides. I frankly think that the general philosophy still applies no matter where you are: if you have a higher step score then other things are not as important (although like I said it's not 100% about the step score) such as an extensive research background etc. The top tier schools, especially those located in favorable geographic locations, get to be super choosy and can demand that you have "all
If the above".

As far as mid level creep this does not seem to be a significant issue in Neurology...they can't push tPA on their own, they can't read EEGs or sleep studies, they cannot perform needle EMG studies, they can't perform endovascular therapy, they cannot interpret autonomic studies, they do not perform nerve blocks etc. plus there are only 15K Neurologists for about 400 Million people in the US so there's not shortage of work. We use NPs and PAs for rounding and note writing on wards as well as seeing follow ups in clinic at times and they are helpful in that regard so I like that we have them but certainly they are not a threat to what we do...Specialists are much harder to displace than generalists and non-procedure based providers as a rule of thumb.


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