It’s my understanding that taking the USMLE as a DO student was almost expected of you since it makes you more competitive. This is what I always read in SDN and what other DO students have told me. However is any of this evidence based? Or are we taking the USMLE because the class ahead of us said we should? Is the upside of potentially getting a high score worth the risk of failing it? A doctor at my school challenged us to find any statistical evidence that Program Directors prefer we take the USMLE and COMLEX. I’m genuinely want to know if there are studies on this or if it’s all anecdotal.
Evidence PDs want you to take the USMLE as DO student?
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Before you ask a question and pursue funding for a research question, you need some sort of justification. Typically, it is mechanistic plausibility.
Let's consider that. Would a PD who has traditionally always heavily relied on step1 disregard years of internal data to try a different test of questionable reliability and internal/external validity? Especially so when he's already drowning in qualified applicants who do have step? He would have us as employees for a minimum of 3-7 years. And given how the system works, we're nearly unfire-able. Or at least it would be extremely taxing on him to fire a resident. I mean emotionally.
Or maybe a different angle. If a bunch of low ranking high schools suddenly made up their own SAT/ACT, do you think that colleges adcoms would start weighing that equally to the SAT?
To me, the question doesn't pass the whiff test. But it may to you. It's your hundred thousand dollar four year degree. Do what you want.
Let's consider that. Would a PD who has traditionally always heavily relied on step1 disregard years of internal data to try a different test of questionable reliability and internal/external validity? Especially so when he's already drowning in qualified applicants who do have step? He would have us as employees for a minimum of 3-7 years. And given how the system works, we're nearly unfire-able. Or at least it would be extremely taxing on him to fire a resident. I mean emotionally.
Or maybe a different angle. If a bunch of low ranking high schools suddenly made up their own SAT/ACT, do you think that colleges adcoms would start weighing that equally to the SAT?
To me, the question doesn't pass the whiff test. But it may to you. It's your hundred thousand dollar four year degree. Do what you want.
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AnatomyGrey12
There are literally programs that say on their website that DO applicants are expected to take USMLE.... And I’m not talking like NYU IM, I’m talking programs that currently have DOs on the roster.
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How about the PD survey? More PDs say they require the USMLE and have a target score than the COMLEX. A handful of programs even explicitly state that they expect DOs to take the USMLEs on their websites. This is not one of the things that you need an RCT for.
You shouldn't be taking the USMLE if its likely you'll fail, but in all honesty, >210 score seems to benefit DOs who take it when it comes to residency applications. Virtually every DO student should be able to pass this exam with some focused studying.
You shouldn't be taking the USMLE if its likely you'll fail, but in all honesty, >210 score seems to benefit DOs who take it when it comes to residency applications. Virtually every DO student should be able to pass this exam with some focused studying.
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I would trust this common idea instead of your school. Think about it...there isn’t really a way to compare Step and Comlex right? They’re different tests. So how would PDs compare MDs and DOs when they’re applying to the same residency? The traditional DO residencies won’t care if you only have comlex, but the traditionally MD ones (and there’s a lot more of those...) will
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AnatomyGrey12
My personal favorite is the NBOME’s sales pitch with all the people saying they only took COMLEX and matched the program of their choice.... when all of the programs they matched to are AOA programs
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I’ve been compiling a list of programs I’m applying to, and between FREIDA/the program’s website, I’ve found that 95% of the programs I’m looking at accept COMLEX in lieu of USMLE. The places that don’t take COMLEX and require USMLE are mostly on the coasts and/or have never had a DO in their program.
Yes a program director survey does sound like the better option and I hope they do one. So some residencies require USMLE and we can assume that other PDs will want you to take the test cause its easier for them to compare you? Has there been instances where a PD has said to an applicant that they should have taken both steps? I also head PDs have an equation to convert a COMLEX score to a USMLE one. It just seems like a huge risk to take an additional test that has no bearing on getting your license just to make yourself a little more competitive.
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They may say they accept it, but who honestly knows how they view it. I’m in a similar boat to you, but I don’t trust only comlex getting me a fair look at historically MD programs. At least not yet...maybe in 15 years or so when the old guard retires
It's my understanding that the benefit gained from taking USMLE increases proportionally to competitiveness of the specialty you're trying to match into and desirability of the location.
I.e
Rural FM/IM - Fine with just COMLEX
FM/IM in a large city - USMLE beneficial
Academic IM or FM at a top program - USMLE more or less required
Peds - COMLEX alone is fine
Gen Surg - Take USMLE
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deleted610572
It also depends where for peds. You will not get interviews to places without a USMLE just like IM. These are the university program powerhouses
I just don't understand why you wouldn't take the USMLE. Let's pretend there is only a slight chance that taking the USMLE will help you. Is that chance worth not taking the USMLE? It's not like the USMLE has stuff that you have to go out of your way to learn vs. the COMLEX. If you study for the USMLE, you are ready to take COMLEX if you cram OMM for three days. Is three days worth of studying worth the chance you will be hindered for the rest of your life?
Because if you take the USMLE and fail it, it'll hurt you much more than applying with a low COMLEX.
Yes that’s exactly the point. It’s weighing the benefit of being slightly more competitive to potentially not matching. I’ve only heard that it makes u a lot more competitive, but I’ve never actually seen any surveys or data on it. So we are basically trusting people who have heard it from other people; it count end up being true but it’s hard to trust that source of info.
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There isn't really a way to get full data because of different people's preferences, the other things on the application, etc. It basically comes down to logic. More standardized data points that work in your favor = better outcomes
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AnatomyGrey12
Just because they say on their website they take it doesn't meant they actually consider it equally.
Yes.
Why would a PD go out of their way to use a conversion equation of dubious quality, to convert scores from a test they don't care about? Much easier to just filter you out... It's no skin off their back with how many applicants they get. That equation NBOME made is garbage, you can't compare two tests with such drastically different testing pools.
I'm going to be very blunt here. Having taken both tests I can straight up tell you that if you can't pass USMLE then you shouldn't be able to move on to the clinical years. Simply passing that test honestly isn't a very high bar. You can also sit here and try and rationalize your way out of taking USMLE all you want, but the fact of the matter is that without it you will 100% be less competitive in many aspects. You can try and test this fact if you wish, but when you don't get interviews to many of the places you are interested in don't complain about it when we are all telling you to take USMLE because in just about every field not having a USMLE score will hurt you in some way or another.
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deleted610572
If you are not struggling in med school take the USMLE. Even if you are struggling study for the USMLE like your life depends on it. Take an NBME close to your comlex date. If you would pass usmle then sign up and take it.
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This thread is based on a silly premise. Go ahead and don't take it. No one cares if you do. It's your future not ours Just don't come here to whine when you see the result that you didn't believe in because there isn't a rigorous Nature publication on it. If it's such an inconvenience then it will be worth it for you. Comlex is garbage and it's necessary to take Step for a number of reasons. It's not a conspiracy or a trend. It has tangible benefits. You can give us a negative data point if you want.
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Your boards are in truth the biggest part of your application save for who you know. COMLEX is relatively widely accepted in the world of community programs. But accepted does not mean equal.
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deleted610572
Unless you want to do an OMM residency. Then don’t take the USMLE. They might view you as an outsider, not a part of the cult of Still. Why would you take such inferior exam like USMLE that doesn’t even test on miracle treatments like cranial
/s
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Programs are very varied in each specialty. It's not so clear cut as academic v.s community. There are some community programs that are more competitive than some university programs. This especially so is true when you compare coastal community v.s heartland academic programs.
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Wait, what? I was actually listing the evidence based on a PD survey. You can find it here: https://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NRMP-2018-Program-Director-Survey-for-WWW.pdf. They release them every couple years. You can see that the vast majority of programs are expecting a USMLE and most expect a score, but not as many say they require the same from COMLEX.
And yes, I have had PDs say that you should take both Steps, but I've heard of only a handful that actually require CS or Step 3.
The equation was made a decade ago and woefully underestimates the applicant's equivalent USMLE score. Its based on a JAOA study that may have been meaningful back then, but now would actually hurt DO applicants.
Its not a huge risk. Its a huge cost, sure ($600/test) and it takes time to get used to taking 2 tests, but in all honesty, what you learn for the USMLE will help you on the COMLEX and as a physician, because we are all working from the same base of knowledge.
Ah I see I think I misunderstood your answer. Alright now this is something we can actually use to base decisions off of. I wonder in a few years how the survey will be different after the merger happens. But thanks for the info, I’ll definitely share it with my teacher.
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AnatomyGrey12
Why do you care what the professor says? It's pretty well understood DO students should completely ignore 99% of what their school tells them about matching.
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It’s completely dependent on the PD. But ACGME PDs will want to see steps. I’ve rotated at MD programs and the first question the PD asked me was “did you take USMLE?” Don’t listen to your school or nbome. The merger also won’t change much.
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USMLE is more important after merger fyi. We are already effectively in the merger if you didn't notice the timeline. Why would you think Comlex will be more important or equal? Every thought process regarding the exam points to it being even less useful.
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This imo is why the USMLE is more important than comlex. Without a USMLE score, PDs just don’t know what they’re working with. For all they know, the comlex only crowd just knows omm really well and barely knows anything else. That’s most likely not the case, but how’s a PD to know?
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So many PDs in various specialties were saying they wanted USMLE scores from DO students despite the merger that the dean of LECOM made USMLE step 1 mandatory for all students beginning with the class of 2022. I've personally heard several PDs from allopathic EM residencies say they want USMLE scores too. The writing is on the wall. I graduate in 2021 and I'll be taking Step 1. Several students in the class of 2020 already took step 1 this past spring because they too saw this coming a mile away.
As others have said before me in this thread....take Step 1 or don't...just don't complain when the former allopathic residencies give your otherwise competitive application a pass.
As others have said before me in this thread....take Step 1 or don't...just don't complain when the former allopathic residencies give your otherwise competitive application a pass.
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Here's my hot take:
East/West Coast:
Don't need USMLE but risky: FM, path, MAYBE peds
Need USMLE: literally anything else
Midwest:
Don't Need USMLE: FM, most community IM programs, SOME psych programs, SOME peds programs
Don't need USMLE but risky: Higher up IM programs, most psych programs, higher up peds,
Need USMLE: Gas and EM and anything more competitive than that, any of the more prestigious "lower" competitive programs
2020 is gonna be a watershed year in determining how the merger affects the value/liability of COMLEX. That said, the Midwest is DEFINITELY more DO friendly as schools usually have great relationships with residencies within the quad-state radius of their campuses and PDs usually know how to interpret COMLEX as a result.
Personally, I thank my lucky stars I'm not someone who cries at the thought of living in the Midwest. Flyover states aren't ideal, I would know, but neither is not matching.
East/West Coast:
Don't need USMLE but risky: FM, path, MAYBE peds
Need USMLE: literally anything else
Midwest:
Don't Need USMLE: FM, most community IM programs, SOME psych programs, SOME peds programs
Don't need USMLE but risky: Higher up IM programs, most psych programs, higher up peds,
Need USMLE: Gas and EM and anything more competitive than that, any of the more prestigious "lower" competitive programs
2020 is gonna be a watershed year in determining how the merger affects the value/liability of COMLEX. That said, the Midwest is DEFINITELY more DO friendly as schools usually have great relationships with residencies within the quad-state radius of their campuses and PDs usually know how to interpret COMLEX as a result.
Personally, I thank my lucky stars I'm not someone who cries at the thought of living in the Midwest. Flyover states aren't ideal, I would know, but neither is not matching.
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I will use peds as an example because its "not competitive"
The class ahead of us had multiple people with 600+ and no USMLE. They had trouble even getting audition rotations because of their lack of USMLE. Matched at respectable programs but nothing crazy.
They also had 2 dude who took USMLE and had average decent scores on usmle and similar comlex to the people above. These 2 got all the auditions they wanted, interviews at places like CHOP, boston children's, mayo clinic etc. Only difference was the last 2 had usmle and the others didn't.
In my class, I have a friend who didn't take usmle and was getting rejected from auditions at midwest peds programs that are not prestigious. (kansas, oklahoma, nebraska etc) despite having a solid comlex score.
If you don't take usmle you are wrong. No other way to put it. Unless you are 100% sure you want rural FM in the midwest at a community hospital you need to take this test.
I will also echo what @AnatomyGrey12 said. If you cannot pass usmle you do not deserve to go onto clinicals or graduate imo. If our MD colleagues couldn't pass usmle they wouldn't graduate, and since we try and perpetuate that we are the same as them we should be held to the same standard.
The class ahead of us had multiple people with 600+ and no USMLE. They had trouble even getting audition rotations because of their lack of USMLE. Matched at respectable programs but nothing crazy.
They also had 2 dude who took USMLE and had average decent scores on usmle and similar comlex to the people above. These 2 got all the auditions they wanted, interviews at places like CHOP, boston children's, mayo clinic etc. Only difference was the last 2 had usmle and the others didn't.
In my class, I have a friend who didn't take usmle and was getting rejected from auditions at midwest peds programs that are not prestigious. (kansas, oklahoma, nebraska etc) despite having a solid comlex score.
If you don't take usmle you are wrong. No other way to put it. Unless you are 100% sure you want rural FM in the midwest at a community hospital you need to take this test.
I will also echo what @AnatomyGrey12 said. If you cannot pass usmle you do not deserve to go onto clinicals or graduate imo. If our MD colleagues couldn't pass usmle they wouldn't graduate, and since we try and perpetuate that we are the same as them we should be held to the same standard.
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The USMLE was so much more enjoyable to take comparatively. The COMLEX was a sh** show. If i had a choice between taking either, residency PD preference aside, id sign up for the USMLE 11 times out of 10. Youll feel 10 times better walking out of the usmle than the comlex. Studying for one is studying for the other, just take both unless youre failing practice nbmes.
Does this apply to taking the USMLE Step 2CK Exam as well? Is it also becoming mandatory?
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Agree with the fact that STEP can definitely help, but strongly disagree with some claims made here.
I would consider peds to be more competitive than FM and certain IM at this point. Nonetheless, I have plenty of classmates who are doing peds auditions (Midwest) just fine without a step score. I agree that if you are sure you can get a +210 STEP you should take, but some people cannot achieve that or are so borderline the risk > the reward. Heck, I was shooting mid 220s on all my NBMEs and Uworld SIMS yet I landed with a sub-210 score on the real deal. I consider my case to be a warning moment for other students that your practice scores are not perfect.
Sure, MD students are required to take Step to progress. They also have entirely different curricula (without even mentioning OMM) at this point and are sometimes given 1-3mos to study for step. Due to the back-asswards thinking and set up of DO schools, I don't know anyone who has that kind of time.
Again, I agree that taking STEP helps (for now) and it SUCKS we have to deal with its dorky, disorganized stepbrother COMLEX. However, I could not disagree more with the "you don't deserve to progress if you can't pass STEP" mentality. Strikes me very much as neck-beardy SDN talk. PLENTY of classmates, both M4s and PGY1s right now, did not take STEP and are going to be fine doctors. It's a standardized exam, one that outside of opening application doors is IRRELEVANT past M2. You wanna know what all my MD docs said to me when I asked a STEP relevant question? "Don't know, don't care."
Right now you absolutely need a high STEP1 score to get access to get highly competitive rotations and residencies, but to become a quality physician? GTFO with that noise.
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Why would a DO student decline to take the USMLE exams?
Don't give them a reason to weed you out easily.
edited to add: I'm not demonizing DO students who do not take the USMLE. But I am saying that it's a deliberate choice that puts the student at a further comparative disadvantage to their MD counterparts.
- Fear of performing badly (probably a reason for that...)
- Laziness (is that a characteristic I'm looking for in a resident?)
- Scheduling conflicts (why? Did they not prioritize properly? Have to remediate something?)
- Money (considering the cost of their education, probably a misplaced priority here...)
Don't give them a reason to weed you out easily.
edited to add: I'm not demonizing DO students who do not take the USMLE. But I am saying that it's a deliberate choice that puts the student at a further comparative disadvantage to their MD counterparts.
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I'm not going to tell someone not to take it, but I will simply offer this:
I didn't take the USMLE. I matched into a well-respected university program (psych) and completed a fellowship at a major academic institution where I will now work as an attending.
@DokterMom I wasn't lazy, I wasn't poor, and I'm good at scheduling my time. I just plain old didn't want to take another 9 hour exam when I found very little reason why I should. YMMV.
I didn't take the USMLE. I matched into a well-respected university program (psych) and completed a fellowship at a major academic institution where I will now work as an attending.
@DokterMom I wasn't lazy, I wasn't poor, and I'm good at scheduling my time. I just plain old didn't want to take another 9 hour exam when I found very little reason why I should. YMMV.
I don't think matching now is the same as 5+ years ago though especially since osteopathic match is no longer an option and psych has gotten more competitive.
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You may be correct, but trust me when I say people were saying literally the EXACT same things 5 years ago with the exception of osteo match no longer being an option. These boards were littered with the exact same thinking though. Regardless, as I said, I'm not telling people not to take it. I'm telling those posters who want to demonize those who don't take it that it is possible to be successful without a USMLE score.
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AnatomyGrey12
They probably could have actually passed Step 1 if they had taken it .... any way this is a strawman because it's not the argument presented.
It's a standardized exam that is literally built to discriminate who should be able to move on to the clinical years and who shouldn't. That's one reason for all the noise about making it P/F, it is extremely discriminatory around the passing line but has problems differentiating people on the right side of the bell curve. If you fail Step then you literally don't have the knowledge required to be able to move on. This is literally what the test is designed to do, and it does that extremely well.
It's not irrelevant past M2. There is significant correlation with Step score and ability to pass your licensing examinations up to a certain point. If you can't pass Step 1 then you are at a greater risk of not being able to pass your licensing exams down the line.
Strawman argument. No one ever said you need a high Step score to be a quality physician, but if someone can't pass it then I absolutely wouldn't ever want that person treating my family members.
If you can't simply pass Step 1 then you don't deserve to move on in your medical education. That's the entire point of the test. If you want to be considered equal to your MD peers then take the test. We can no longer sit here and wail and whine about being treated equal when we don't even want to do the same standardized hoops. It's hypocritical.
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Hold up. Why is the confrontational finger-pointing directed at students who choose to do what their DO school requires instead of paying for and sitting for 2 boards when it's not required? All this energy spent on demonizing people for not taking the USMLE needs to re-directed at DO schools to raise the standard of their clinical education if they want their students to be treated as MD equals. Nothing screams "we're not equal" than guilting DO students into taking the USMLE when the REAL problem lies with clinical education.
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It is not a strawman argument. If you claim someone should not advance/graduate without passing STEP you are literally saying they cannot be a physician without STEP. Ergo, it is impossible to become a quality physician without passing STEP, as you indicated by preferring someone who did not pass STEP not treat a family member.
And that's where we disagree. I would argue STEP should not be a graduation requirement for DOs until COMLEX is eliminated. Why? Because they are completely different tests and for whatever reasons some people do well on one and terrible with the other. Do I think STEP is superior? Absolutely. But some students simply cannot handle studying for both and where those students would have seen relative ease matching into various FM, IM, Peds etc. programs, now they have a major red flag on their hands.
Again, STEP is the passing requirement for MD students. I agree an MD not taking and passing STEP is inexcusable. But until COMLEX is eliminated and DO school curriculum reflects STEP curriculum the same does not apply for DOs.
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This is exactly what I am getting at. Well said.
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You’re not going to find anyone who thinks DO clinical shouldn’t be improved. But more than one thing can be wrong at the same time. I agree that DO students shouldn’t be “demonized” for not taking STEP. I’m an OMS-III and I’m learning tons from residents, upperclassmen, and attendings that never took STEP exams. But these exams are good, objective ways to assess one’s knowledge base and comlex simply isn’t.
I personally think that comlex is an easier exam to pass than comlex. So do most program directors. Even though we both know it’s not the case, if you’re an MD program director you’ll assume a DO without a step score simply couldn’t pass step 1.
As DOs, we already have more loosely regulated third year rotations, less access to research, and markedly limited connections compared to our MD counterparts. To then take a board exam most PDs don’t know how to interpret, well...why should they even accept our apps?
We can’t be different from MDs in every way on paper and provide no objective way for PDs to gauge us as medical students but still expect our apps to be considered equal. That makes no sense.
So to anyone in preclinicals reading this: feel free to skip step 1. But don’t whine and complain when you don’t get interviews at places you want to go while your classmates who took the exam get them instead. They did something you chose not to do. Don’t blame it on “DO discrimination.”
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AnatomyGrey12
Where did I ever vilify anyone that didn't take Step? I said if a DO student is incapable of passing that test then they don't deserve to advance in their education. This is irrespective of whether or not they take it. I'm of the opinion that most DO students COULD pass Step if they were to take it, and DO student SHOULD take it. I know more than a few people who didn't take Step that I know would have passed. My argument is more of a philosophical one, even if I do believe Step 1 should be mandatory for all DO students.
Oh don't get me started on the clinical education and basically the entire AOA oversight of the DO world. I pretty much consider them criminals who have sold out their constituents in order to maintain the money lining their pockets and whatever power they think they have in the medical world. I agree 100% there are serious problems that need to be addressed. Unfortunately, as it appears now, there really isn't going to be any of these sorts of changes until the AOA gets overthrown.
It literally is a strawman. I said if someone is incapable of passing Step 1 then they shouldn't be able to move on in their medical education, and I wouldn't want such a person treating family members. I never said that a high score was required to become a quality physician, which is what you were arguing against with your comment. If someone is incapable of passing Step I don't want them touching my family members, and I stand by that comment.
They aren't different enough that you can't study for one and not pass the other.... remember we are talking about passing, we aren't saying they need a 230.
Again, remember we are talking about simply passing. A Step score of 194. If students can't pass Step then I don't believe they should be allowed to advance. Let's be honest here for a minute, getting a 194 on Step isn't really that high of an expectation. In fact, it's the bare minimum.
It absolutely applies to DOs... it's ingenious to claim the curriculum at DO schools is so different that a DO student shouldn't be able to pass Step. MD students don't have some magical curriculum that prepares them well for Step, I have more than a handful of MD friends who have complaints about their schools that were shockingly similar to my gripes about my DO curriculum. Anecdotal sure, but it's a sentiment I see expressed from our MD SDN colleagues all the time as well.
Don't misunderstand me, I think the NBOME and COMLEX should disappear like tonight. I think they are nothing but a clown organization designing piss poor tests for future professionals, but I also think however that if we want to claim equivalence to MDs then we should hold ourselves to the same standard.
This isn't even getting into the basis of this thread, which is that PDs absolutely view DO applicants without Step differently than they do the ones that have a Step score. For some fields it might not affect someone too terribly much, in others it might mean zero interview, but all DO students without a Step will be affected by it whether they know it or not.
Very well put.
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@AnatomyGrey12 you are right that we are getting sidetracked. Overall despite disagreeing on making STEP mandatory, I think we agree several other areas.
The only reason I am falling on my sword here is that, in addition to my unfortunate experience, a good class friend of mine took both exams. He scored +650 on COMLEX but got a flat 200 on STEP. Admittedly, this is n=1, but it's the reason I argue taking both the exams are not exactly the same and DOs should not be required to take STEP until COMLEX is abolished. That kind of a score split can't be explained by one being easier than the other, especially since he thought it went well and was getting very high practice scores.
Since for all intents and purposes a 200 is basically a failure, the dude is obviously pretty sore about it. This is also someone who is a top quartile student and studied since September.
But I digress (again).
The only reason I am falling on my sword here is that, in addition to my unfortunate experience, a good class friend of mine took both exams. He scored +650 on COMLEX but got a flat 200 on STEP. Admittedly, this is n=1, but it's the reason I argue taking both the exams are not exactly the same and DOs should not be required to take STEP until COMLEX is abolished. That kind of a score split can't be explained by one being easier than the other, especially since he thought it went well and was getting very high practice scores.
Since for all intents and purposes a 200 is basically a failure, the dude is obviously pretty sore about it. This is also someone who is a top quartile student and studied since September.
But I digress (again).
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Then the argument should be about abolishing or improving COMLEX, not demonizing those who don't take Step 1, as some posters have done.
I think it's problematic that you say these things with such confidence when you're a medical student. I have actually participated in resident selection at ACGME program and I can tell you that "why didn't you take Step 1" never came up. So, no if I was an MD program director I wouldn't assume a DO without a Step score couldn't pass Step 1 and I dare say that my own PDs never thought this either or else they wouldn't have ranked me.
Questions like that are the reason I get involved in these discussions. Had you said "why wouldn't you want to increase your chances of matching?" I would have agreed. But to ask "why should they even accept our apps?" as if someone not taking the USMLE isn't worthy of the attention of an ACGME PD is why I use words like "demonize." I was every bit as worthy of an ACGME residency slot as the guy who scored a 230 on the USMLE. I did what my school and my degree required me to do and I did it well. I wasn't required to take the USMLE, so I didn't. I worked hard in med school and on clinical rotations. I passed all my boards on the first try. I deserved my residency slot and my lack of USMLE didn't change that.
A big part of changing the DO stigma is reducing the self-consciousness of its students. It's time we stop apologizing for being DOs and stop convincing others that unless we go above and beyond our MD colleagues, we don't deserve to be viewed the same. That's plain old BS.
Sure we can. I did. I expected to be treated the same because I knew that my skills and knowledge were on par with my MD colleagues. I was reassured of this during my away rotations when I went head-to-head with them. Is it tougher the DO route? Absolutely! Will it make your life easier to just take the USMLE? Absolutely! But to suggest that a DO student who doesn't take it shouldn't want to be treated the same or that he/she is a hypocrite for expecting equal treatment or that he/she is lazy (as another poster did) is BS.
It is, by definition, DO discrimination. DO discrimination doesn't refer to just the letters. It refers to the whole package, treating DO graduates differently and refusing to look at them objectively if they didn't take the USMLE when they're not required to do so. Please don't advocate it.
This is the statement I'm referring to: "If you want to be considered equal to your MD peers then take the test. We can no longer sit here and wail and whine about being treated equal when we don't even want to do the same standardized hoops. It's hypocritical."
I want to be considered equal to my MD peers because I AM equal to my MD peers and I never took the test. And yes, if someone passes me over for a job due to the fact that I'm a DO and nothing else, I will wail and whine about DO discrimination. And no, I'm not a hypocrite. I don't have to take the USMLE to have a chance at being a physician in the U.S. Don't change the goal posts and then tell those of us who refuse to meet it that we're hypocrites.
Not your decision to make. They had their reasons for not taking it, just as I did. Until COMLEX is abolished, we have to stop judging each other for not taking USMLE.
Not really philosophical when you're calling people hypocrites.
I do hold myself to the same standard. Four years of undergrad? Check! Four years of med school? Check! Three standardized licensing exams? Check! Four years of residency? Check! I don't know why you or others believe that Step 1 is some exclusive magic bullet that somehow proves I'm worthy of being a doctor, where COMLEX failed to prove the same. I think all this "you MUST take USMLE if you want to be treated equal" hysteria is reflective of feelings of inadequacy in our own education/skills and self-nurtured motivation to prove something to others, to prove that just because we went to DO school doesn't mean we don't have the chops to play with the "big boys," in this case, MD students.
Might I suggest we all get over it, realize we're all doctors, let people do what they want, and stop judging each other for the decisions made? All this finger-pointing and tales of hypocrisy in other DOs is distracting from the real problem and that is that there are two licensing exams in the first place.
I think that as a medical student, it's presumptuous to make statements with such absolutes, like the above. But what do I know?
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Then the argument should be about abolishing or improving COMLEX, not demonizing those who don't take Step 1, as some posters have done.
Agree. I think the comlex should die and we should all be held to the same standard. That’s kinda my main point.
I think it's problematic that you say these things with such confidence when you're a medical student. I have actually participated in resident selection at ACGME program and I can tell you that "why didn't you take Step 1" never came up. So, no if I was an MD program director I wouldn't assume a DO without a Step score couldn't pass Step 1 and I dare say that my own PDs never thought this either or else they wouldn't have ranked me.
And I’m sure you’re good at what you do and I’m not trying to say otherwise. “Why didn’t you take step?” Doesn’t come up I’m sure. In fact, if your application is screened out because of a lack of step score it won’t come up at all. People get screened out of interviews because they don’t have a step score. If you get an invite without one, then yeah, they don’t care and probably won’t bring it up.
A big part of changing the DO stigma is reducing the self-consciousness of its students. It's time we stop apologizing for being DOs and stop convincing others that unless we go above and beyond our MD colleagues, we don't deserve to be viewed the same. That's plain old BS.
I don’t think we should have to go above and beyond our MD colleagues. But I think we should do the same. It’s not rational to do less and expect the same as those who did more. THAT is BS.
Questions like that are the reason I get involved in these discussions. Had you said "why wouldn't you want to increase your chances of matching?" I would have agreed. But to ask "why should they even accept our apps?" as if someone not taking the USMLE isn't worthy of the attention of an ACGME PD is why I use words like "demonize." I was every bit as worthy of an ACGME residency slot as the guy who scored a 230 on the USMLE. I did what my school and my degree required me to do and I did it well. I wasn't required to take the USMLE, so I didn't. I worked hard in med school and on clinical rotations. I passed all my boards on the first try. I deserved my residency slot and my lack of USMLE didn't change that.
I feel you may have misunderstood my point here and it’s my fault. My point was that if we give them no objective way to evaluate us, I don’t blame them for not bothering to try.
But to suggest that a DO student who doesn't take it shouldn't want to be treated the same or that he/she is a hypocrite for expecting equal treatment or that he/she is lazy (as another poster did) is BS.
Why should one be treated equally for doing less?
It is, by definition, DO discrimination. DO discrimination doesn't refer to just the letters. It refers to the whole package, treating DO graduates differently and refusing to look at them objectively if they didn't take the USMLE when they're not required to do so. Please don't advocate it.
And I disagree. It’s not discrimination to expect the same things of every applicant. I would have loved to have taken just the comlex. But program directors want USMLE. That’s the point of the thread.
As a side note, even though we’re in disagreement about a lot, I really am glad that it all worked out for you. But please acknowledge that when you were applying for residency that the idea of not matching your field was almost a laughable concept. Even now with its popularity at an all time high, it’s still not too tough to match psych by the numbers. And this ignores the fact that it’s one of the few fields that really is more about “fit”. I respect your opinion, even if I don’t agree with it. But I do worry your anecdotal experience in a unique field isn’t applicable to the vast majority us and may serve to be misleading.
Agree. I think the comlex should die and we should all be held to the same standard. That’s kinda my main point.
I think it's problematic that you say these things with such confidence when you're a medical student. I have actually participated in resident selection at ACGME program and I can tell you that "why didn't you take Step 1" never came up. So, no if I was an MD program director I wouldn't assume a DO without a Step score couldn't pass Step 1 and I dare say that my own PDs never thought this either or else they wouldn't have ranked me.
And I’m sure you’re good at what you do and I’m not trying to say otherwise. “Why didn’t you take step?” Doesn’t come up I’m sure. In fact, if your application is screened out because of a lack of step score it won’t come up at all. People get screened out of interviews because they don’t have a step score. If you get an invite without one, then yeah, they don’t care and probably won’t bring it up.
A big part of changing the DO stigma is reducing the self-consciousness of its students. It's time we stop apologizing for being DOs and stop convincing others that unless we go above and beyond our MD colleagues, we don't deserve to be viewed the same. That's plain old BS.
I don’t think we should have to go above and beyond our MD colleagues. But I think we should do the same. It’s not rational to do less and expect the same as those who did more. THAT is BS.
Questions like that are the reason I get involved in these discussions. Had you said "why wouldn't you want to increase your chances of matching?" I would have agreed. But to ask "why should they even accept our apps?" as if someone not taking the USMLE isn't worthy of the attention of an ACGME PD is why I use words like "demonize." I was every bit as worthy of an ACGME residency slot as the guy who scored a 230 on the USMLE. I did what my school and my degree required me to do and I did it well. I wasn't required to take the USMLE, so I didn't. I worked hard in med school and on clinical rotations. I passed all my boards on the first try. I deserved my residency slot and my lack of USMLE didn't change that.
I feel you may have misunderstood my point here and it’s my fault. My point was that if we give them no objective way to evaluate us, I don’t blame them for not bothering to try.
But to suggest that a DO student who doesn't take it shouldn't want to be treated the same or that he/she is a hypocrite for expecting equal treatment or that he/she is lazy (as another poster did) is BS.
Why should one be treated equally for doing less?
It is, by definition, DO discrimination. DO discrimination doesn't refer to just the letters. It refers to the whole package, treating DO graduates differently and refusing to look at them objectively if they didn't take the USMLE when they're not required to do so. Please don't advocate it.
And I disagree. It’s not discrimination to expect the same things of every applicant. I would have loved to have taken just the comlex. But program directors want USMLE. That’s the point of the thread.
As a side note, even though we’re in disagreement about a lot, I really am glad that it all worked out for you. But please acknowledge that when you were applying for residency that the idea of not matching your field was almost a laughable concept. Even now with its popularity at an all time high, it’s still not too tough to match psych by the numbers. And this ignores the fact that it’s one of the few fields that really is more about “fit”. I respect your opinion, even if I don’t agree with it. But I do worry your anecdotal experience in a unique field isn’t applicable to the vast majority us and may serve to be misleading.
So getting back on topic, we have the program director survey showing more PDs expect a USMLE compared to the COMLEX (I hope I understood it correctly). Other than that data, there has only been anecdotal evidence for both sides of the argument, is that right?
