Evidence PDs want you to take the USMLE as DO student?

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kus676 said:
So getting back on topic, we have the program director survey showing more PDs expect a USMLE compared to the COMLEX (I hope I understood it correctly). Other than that data, there has only been anecdotal evidence for both sides of the argument, is that right?
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Again. Yes, anecdotal. But it is impossible to get this “hard” data you’re wanting for whatever this project is. As discussed, there are 100 more factors of an application besides (or in addition to) a step score that can factor in. /thread
 
kus676 said:
So getting back on topic, we have the program director survey showing more PDs expect a USMLE compared to the COMLEX (I hope I understood it correctly). Other than that data, there has only been anecdotal evidence for both sides of the argument, is that right?
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I gave the charting outcomes data with and without step. The match rate is lower for applicant without step at all comlex levels. It's drastically obvious for slight more competitive specialties like surgery.
 
Ho0v-man said:
I don’t think we should have to go above and beyond our MD colleagues. But I think we should do the same. It’s not rational to do less and expect the same as those who did more. THAT is BS.
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We are doing the same. That is my point. We take our licensing exams just as they take theirs. Those of you who think we are not doing the same are adding to the stigma. All this bellyaching about those not taking the USMLE only reinforces the belief by others that we're not equal. Take the USMLE if you want, but acknowledge that that was what was best for you and your goals rather than "if a DO doesn't take the USMLE, they suck and shouldn't match because they're not equal to MDs" attitude, which is what I'm reading here.

I feel you may have misunderstood my point here and it’s my fault. My point was that if we give them no objective way to evaluate us, I don’t blame them for not bothering to try.
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We are giving them an objective way to evaluate us. It's called COMLEX. More PDs than you think are familiar with it.

Why should one be treated equally for doing less?
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Again, we're not doing less. You're crapping all over your degree and selling yourself out with this attitude. How can we expect others to not call us chiropractors when you and other DO students repeatedly say we're doing less than our MD colleagues. I think what you mean to say is that our exams aren't as good as theirs, and I would agree with that. COMLEX is poorly written. But we -- the students -- are not doing less than the MD folks.

And I disagree. It’s not discrimination to expect the same things of every applicant. I would have loved to have taken just the comlex. But program directors want USMLE. That’s the point of the thread.
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Then acknowledge that PDs are the problem and COMLEX is the problem, not DO students who choose not to take it. PDs requiring USMLE are telling you that in order to match to their program, you have to take two sets of boards or you won't match. That's part of the discrimination. If people want to appease them, that's great. Like I said, I will never tell someone not to take the USMLE. But don't trash people for not wanting to appease them.

As a side note, even though we’re in disagreement about a lot, I really am glad that it all worked out for you. But please acknowledge that when you were applying for residency that the idea of not matching your field was almost a laughable concept. Even now with its popularity at an all time high, it’s still not too tough to match psych by the numbers. And this ignores the fact that it’s one of the few fields that really is more about “fit”. I respect your opinion, even if I don’t agree with it. But I do worry your anecdotal experience in a unique field isn’t applicable to the vast majority us and may serve to be misleading.
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This is not true. The year I matched, there were quite a few who didn't (including some US MDs) and there were very few psych spots in the SOAP. Psych is getting more competitive, you're right, but it was not in any way laughable not to match to it when I went through the match. I also want to clarify that I applied to both psych and neuro. I got 12 interview invites, 10 were at well-respected academic institutions and 2 were at community programs. I went to 11 (maybe 10? I've forgotten) interviews. I matched at my first choice program, which was psych. My second choice program was neuro and I found out later that I was ranked to match there as well.

My point in telling you this is you can never talk in absolutes. I understand if gives people to comfort to know if I do this and this and this and this, I will be successful. And if that's what you want and you're willing to do whatever you can to maximize your chances, that's great. I would never say don't take the USMLE because I do think you're taking a chance. But I would say that even though you're every bit as good a med student/doctor as your MD colleagues and have done everything expected of your MD colleagues, taking the USMLE is an extra hoop DO students need to jump through to max out their chances of matching. I would never call DOs hypocrites, lazy, or less than because they choose not to do it.

You guys are stuck in pre-allo land. Once you're at least halfway through training, you'll realize that this conversation and the requirement by some PDs of the USMLE was pretty pointless. It's a means to an end and says nothing about how you'll actually perform as a doctor. You're every bit as equal to your MD colleagues whether or not you take the USMLE.

Let's re-visit this thread in 5 years and we'll check back in on how everyone feels.
 
Kalam said:
I just don't understand why you wouldn't take the USMLE. Let's pretend there is only a slight chance that taking the USMLE will help you. Is that chance worth not taking the USMLE? It's not like the USMLE has stuff that you have to go out of your way to learn vs. the COMLEX. If you study for the USMLE, you are ready to take COMLEX if you cram OMM for three days. Is three days worth of studying worth the chance you will be hindered for the rest of your life?
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Alkain said:
Because if you take the USMLE and fail it, it'll hurt you much more than applying with a low COMLEX.
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DO2015CA said:
If you are not struggling in med school take the USMLE. Even if you are struggling study for the USMLE like your life depends on it. Take an NBME close to your comlex date. If you would pass usmle then sign up and take it.
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Two pages of thread summarized nicely.

IF you are an 80% student or better in the preclinicals, then I recommend that you take USMLE. It will simply open more doors for you.

FYI, RVU requires students to take USMLE. At my school, we're still debating imposing this requirement. I'm pushing for our paying for our students to take it. It's an uphill battle for me, alas.
 
Mass Effect said:
We are doing the same. That is my point. We take our licensing exams just as they take theirs. Those of you who think we are not doing the same are adding to the stigma. All this bellyaching about those not taking the USMLE only reinforces the belief by others that we're not equal. Take the USMLE if you want, but acknowledge that that was what was best for you and your goals rather than "if a DO doesn't take the USMLE, they suck and shouldn't match because they're not equal to MDs" attitude, which is what I'm reading here.



We are giving them an objective way to evaluate us. It's called COMLEX. More PDs than you think are familiar with it.



Again, we're not doing less. You're crapping all over your degree and selling yourself out with this attitude. How can we expect others to not call us chiropractors when you and other DO students repeatedly say we're doing less than our MD colleagues. I think what you mean to say is that our exams aren't as good as theirs, and I would agree with that. COMLEX is poorly written. But we -- the students -- are not doing less than the MD folks.



Then acknowledge that PDs are the problem and COMLEX is the problem, not DO students who choose not to take it. PDs requiring USMLE are telling you that in order to match to their program, you have to take two sets of boards or you won't match. That's part of the discrimination. If people want to appease them, that's great. Like I said, I will never tell someone not to take the USMLE. But don't trash people for not wanting to appease them.



This is not true. The year I matched, there were quite a few who didn't (including some US MDs) and there were very few psych spots in the SOAP. Psych is getting more competitive, you're right, but it was not in any way laughable not to match to it when I went through the match. I also want to clarify that I applied to both psych and neuro. I got 12 interview invites, 10 were at well-respected academic institutions and 2 were at community programs. I went to 11 (maybe 10? I've forgotten) interviews. I matched at my first choice program, which was psych. My second choice program was neuro and I found out later that I was ranked to match there as well.

My point in telling you this is you can never talk in absolutes. I understand if gives people to comfort to know if I do this and this and this and this, I will be successful. And if that's what you want and you're willing to do whatever you can to maximize your chances, that's great. I would never say don't take the USMLE because I do think you're taking a chance. But I would say that even though you're every bit as good a med student/doctor as your MD colleagues and have done everything expected of your MD colleagues, taking the USMLE is an extra hoop DO students need to jump through to max out their chances of matching. I would never call DOs hypocrites, lazy, or less than because they choose not to do it.

You guys are stuck in pre-allo land. Once you're at least halfway through training, you'll realize that this conversation and the requirement by some PDs of the USMLE was pretty pointless. It's a means to an end and says nothing about how you'll actually perform as a doctor. You're every bit as equal to your MD colleagues whether or not you take the USMLE.

Let's re-visit this thread in 5 years and we'll check back in on how everyone feels.
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I have a feeling in 5 years we’ll both be just as stubborn. This is going nowhere. Congrats on your success.
 
Mass Effect said:
And well wishes to you. I hope you match your number one.
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I have to say Mass, you make a great argument. In fact, I think my thinking has shifted because you are absolutely right about talking down DO's who don't take Step. I can see many of my classmates now who have chosen to forego, especially at my school due to our ridiculous board prep schedule (3 weeks of dedicated), and I know they are not lesser students.

In fact, many of them were the better students who were holding out to try and maximize step. But then they discovered an interest in a less competitive field and now they see no reason to do it. They are absolutely worthy of being physicians, and I think the mentality expressed earlier in this thread really is hurting us (i.e. those who don't take step must have something wrong with them). We get discriminated enough without doing it to each other.
 
OP--

Your professor who is dying to see "hard data" that shows it's beneficial to take Step as a DO student has significant skin in the game, as does all DO admin. Which is why you should take everything they say with a grain of salt. You have to step back and think why would my professor not want me or any other students to take USMLE. My admin was the same way. They tried to convince everyone of us not to take it. Focus on COMLEX they said. They're extremely different exams. Blah blah.

In my opinion the answer is simple: They simply don't believe that their education they're providing us, is tailored towards true success on the USMLE exam. On top of that, their jobs are partly dictated by board passing rates for our school. And that board passing rate doesn't have much to do with USMLE, it has everything to do with COMLEX. So your professor needs you to focus everything on COMLEX and pass it. In their minds, having their students take both will take energy away from COMLEX and the students will focus more on Step and the risks of failing COMLEX go up for them.

You have to understand motives when it comes to these discussions. The lady who runs our office of national boards doesn't even want our class to use UW at my DO school. Think about that. The most important current board prep resource. She says to forego it, to focus on COMLEX-specific resources. These people don't care much about your career goals. They care about you passing your exam on the first try, and matching when you apply for the first time. I hate to be cynical, but that's just the truth.

And while I appreciate Mass Effect on these forums, matching 5 years ago is simply different, regardless if the arguments were similar as they are now.

The answer to OP's question is simple: why would you limit yourself? Why would you risk being shut out at programs across the country because you decided not to take Step? Because of the extra 7 hours? Extra $650? Sure, but come on.

And let's not forget the point that often goes untouched in these discussions... DO students who are nervous about failing Step and want to focus excelling on COMLEX, probably should be nervous about passing COMLEX as well. If you are on the cusp of failing Step, you're probably not in a great spot for COMLEX. No one mentions this. Often students fail practice exams, then back out of Step, take COMLEX, and do below average. That's because COMLEX is an easier (& sh*ttier) exam. And lastly, the administration telling you you don't need to take Step, probably doesn't believe you can excel on Step. Sucks, but it's true.

For students who just take COMLEX and do well and match to their #1. Awesome. That's great. You made it. But for people who haven't matched yet, why wouldn't they want to maximize their chances? And why wouldn't you want to push them do to that? You making it to the other side doesn't somehow negate the odds applicants face each year.
 
Another point to be made is that folks who don't take step 1, a big portion of them are just focusing on COMBANK and COMQUEST. Which to be honest aren't on the same difficulty level as UWORLD and emphasize different high yield material. If your base knowledge from years 1 and 2 is based off COMBANK, well.. idk its almost like two people speaking different languages (kind of extreme, but idk how else to put it).
 
Mass Effect said:
We are doing the same.
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Not really. MDs are playing in the NFL while DOs are trying to play in a completely different league but somehow pass it off as the same.
Mass Effect said:
Those of you who think we are not doing the same are adding to the stigma.
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No. The DO leadership is doing all of that on their own. DO students blindly following them and trying to pass it off as "doing the same" are the ones who continue the stigma.
Mass Effect said:
All this bellyaching about those not taking the USMLE only reinforces the belief by others that we're not equal.
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If we want to be equal we should do the exact same things. Taking a crappily written board exam in lieu of the gold standard medical board exam doesn't make us equal, no matter how much our criminal overlords at the AOA and NBOME might try to sell us that snake oil. We can't complain about "DO discrimination" when we aren't attempting to make ourself comparable with our MD counterparts. We don't get to have our cake and eat it too.
Mass Effect said:
and your goals rather than "if a DO doesn't take the USMLE, they suck and shouldn't match because they're not equal to MDs" attitude, which is what I'm reading here.
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Yeah literally no one said that dude.
Mass Effect said:
We are giving them an objective way to evaluate us. It's called COMLEX. More PDs than you think are familiar with it.
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No, we are simply giving them a way to compare us with other DOs. If we want to be compared with MDs we need the same standardized exams on our apps. Sure some PDs don't care, doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to be better.
Mass Effect said:
Again, we're not doing less. You're crapping all over your degree and selling yourself out with this attitude. How can we expect others to not call us chiropractors when you and other DO students repeatedly say we're doing less than our MD colleagues. I think what you mean to say is that our exams aren't as good as theirs, and I would agree with that. COMLEX is poorly written. But we -- the students -- are not doing less than the MD folks.
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How on earth is it "selling ourselves out" to admit that our board examination is a complete joke and we should be holding ourselves to a higher standard?
Mass Effect said:
Then acknowledge that PDs are the problem and COMLEX is the problem, not DO students who choose not to take it.
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You're right, COMLEX is most definitely a serious problem, hence DO students should choose to take USMLE. PDs are employers, and they have every right to throw out our apps for not having the same qualifications as the rest of their applicant pool.
Mass Effect said:
That's part of the discrimination. If people want to appease them, that's great. Like I said, I will never tell someone not to take the USMLE. But don't trash people for not wanting to appease them.
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No one is trashing people for not wanting to appease them. It is, however, straight up dishonest to not admit that not having a Step score will always be a negative part of your app at many, many programs, and honestly I completely understand why. If I'm ever a PD I wouldn't take a DO who didn't take Step either. You don't have to appease residency directors, but then you can't turn around and complain that they threw your app in the trash afterwards.
Mass Effect said:
This is not true. The year I matched, there were quite a few who didn't (including some US MDs) and there were very few psych spots in the SOAP. Psych is getting more competitive, you're right, but it was not in any way laughable not to match to it when I went through the match. I also want to clarify that I applied to both psych and neuro. I got 12 interview invites, 10 were at well-respected academic institutions and 2 were at community programs. I went to 11 (maybe 10? I've forgotten) interviews. I matched at my first choice program, which was psych. My second choice program was neuro and I found out later that I was ranked to match there as well.
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Look, the numbers don't lie. Psych (and neuro honestly) was a very easy match even just a few short years ago, and it has a huge "fit" component to it. Your anecdote is great for you, but it really isn't helpful to this conversation. It's about as useful as the NBOME's campaign
Mass Effect said:
I would never call DOs hypocrites, lazy, or less than because they choose not to do it.
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Mass Effect said:
You guys are stuck in pre-allo land. Once you're at least halfway through training, you'll realize that this conversation and the requirement by some PDs of the USMLE was pretty pointless. It's a means to an end and says nothing about how you'll actually perform as a doctor. You're every bit as equal to your MD colleagues whether or not you take the USMLE.

Let's re-visit this thread in 5 years and we'll check back in on how everyone feels.
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I can guarantee you 100% my opinion will be unchanged in 5 years. I also agree that someone who makes it through residency and licensing should be considered equal to an MD, but that's not really the discussion at hand. We are discussing board exams and residency applications.
BorntobeDO? said:
They are absolutely worthy of being physicians, and I think the mentality expressed earlier in this thread really is hurting us (i.e. those who don't take step must have something wrong with them). We get discriminated enough without doing it to each other.
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We aren't saying that though. We are saying that's what many ACGME PD's think, which is 100% accurate. In my field of choice there are literally dozens of programs I've looked at, all of which have at least one DO on roster if not more, that explicitly say on their website that osteopathic applicants are expected to have taken USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
@kus676

You want harder data? Start with this.

Should Osteopathic Students Applying to Allopathic Emergency Medicine Programs Take the USMLE Exam? - PMC

Board scores are an important aspect of an emergency medicine (EM) residency application. Residency directors use these standardized tests to objectively evaluate an applicant’s potential and help decide whether to interview a candidate. While ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
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Key finding:
Conclusion
DO students who reported USMLE were more likely to match. DO students applying to allopathic EM programs should consider taking USMLE to improve their chances of a successful match.
 
Goro said:
FYI, RVU requires students to take USMLE. At my school, we're still debating imposing this requirement. I'm pushing for our paying for our students to take it. It's an uphill battle for me, alas.
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Yeah that’s never gonna pass. The last thing some non-profit (or for profit) D.O schools would do is to pay their students for the chance to improve their residency apps.
In fact it’s much more likely that the school would seriously consider “a substantial increase in class size” or “opening a new branch campus to alleviate the physician shortage” before they even think of something as radical as paying students to take USMLE.
Thank you for trying though.
 
Espressso said:
I think the only reason to not take Step as a DO. Is if you're only applying to OMM/NMM residencies. Even FM applicants should take it
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The other thing is, how many people know "exactly" what specialty they're gonna do at the end of 2nd year, only to switch a year later? It would suck to be convinced you're going into FM, not take USMLE, and then fall in love with GS or something like that and realize you really handicapped yourself.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
We aren't saying that though. We are saying that's what many ACGME PD's think, which is 100% accurate. In my field of choice there are literally dozens of programs I've looked at, all of which have at least one DO on roster if not more, that explicitly say on their website that osteopathic applicants are expected to have taken USMLE Step 1 and Step 2 CK.
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See the below post, it clearly infers that there is something wrong with the decision-making/judgement/ability of any DO who doesn't take step. Even with the edit, the whole post operates with the assumption that 'something must be wrong' with an applicant who doesn't take Step. You have expressed similar sentiments yourself with your thought on not wanting to be seen by a DO who couldn't pass step.

Look I have been beating the 'take Step' drum for a long long time. I believe it helps us match. But the mentality specified in the post below needs to be addressed. That isn't how we should think of it. And judging by the likes, the majority does think that way.

Lets say I match into a residency without step, and one of my co-residents had step as DO, does that somehow make me a worse resident? You know it doesn't. We should be advocating for each other so maybe in the future we (DO's) won't have to take two exams just to be 'competative.' I think that sometimes we just start talking about step and act like anyone who doesn't take it is an idiot or inferior. We shouldn't do that.

BTW I know you need step, and I have full confidence that you will get the specialty you desire. You have certainly put in the work grey and remain one of my favorite posters.
DokterMom said:
Why would a DO student decline to take the USMLE exams?
  1. Fear of performing badly (probably a reason for that...)
  2. Laziness (is that a characteristic I'm looking for in a resident?)
  3. Scheduling conflicts (why? Did they not prioritize properly? Have to remediate something?)
  4. Money (considering the cost of their education, probably a misplaced priority here...)
Bottom line, The most obvious reasons for not taking it all make you look suspect.

Don't give them a reason to weed you out easily.

edited to add: I'm not demonizing DO students who do not take the USMLE. But I am saying that it's a deliberate choice that puts the student at a further comparative disadvantage to their MD counterparts.
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Taking COMLEX isn't a choice, I was born that way.
 
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What has been extremely annoying is going into 4th year thinking that just taking step 1 would be enough, and then realizing, nope, step 2 is also preferred. By the time I'm an intern I'm sure step 3 will somehow make its way into my life.
 
Giovanotto said:
What has been extremely annoying is going into 4th year thinking that just taking step 1 would be enough, and then realizing, nope, step 2 is also preferred. By the time I'm an intern I'm sure step 3 will somehow make its way into my life.
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To take Step 3 you'd have to take both step 2 CS and CK.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Not really. MDs are playing in the NFL while DOs are trying to play in a completely different league but somehow pass it off as the same.
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It’s sad to see this kind of self diminishment on this thread. I’m an MD working in one of the most desirable cities in Southern California. Once in practice in matters zero if you are an MD or DO. 10-15 years ago there weren’t many DO’s practicing in my area. Now there are. The best general surgeon and the best slickest EP cardiologist I work with are DO’s. These guys are the equivalent of NFL Pro Bowlers. Don’t sell yourself short.

Back on topic I agree with you that most DO’s should take all the USMLEs.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
See the below post, it clearly infers that there is something wrong with the decision-making/judgement/ability of any DO who doesn't take step. Even with the edit, the whole post operates with the assumption that 'something must be wrong' with an applicant who doesn't take Step. You have expressed similar sentiments yourself with your thought on not wanting to be seen by a DO who couldn't pass step.

Look I have been beating the 'take Step' drum for a long long time. I believe it helps us match. But the mentality specified in the post below needs to be addressed. That isn't how we should think of it. And judging by the likes, the majority does think that way.

Lets say I match into a residency without step, and one of my co-residents had step as DO, does that somehow make me a worse resident? You know it doesn't. We should be advocating for each other so maybe in the future we (DO's) won't have to take two exams just to be 'competative.' I think that sometimes we just start talking about step and act like anyone who doesn't take it is an idiot or inferior. We shouldn't do that.

BTW I know you need step, and I have full confidence that you will get the specialty you desire. You have certainly put in the work grey and remain one of my favorite posters.

Taking COMLEX isn't a choice, I was born that way.
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I generally agree with this. But I will say, in regarding the bold: I totally want there to be one exam for both MDs and DOs and I suspect that in the future that will be the case. But the question is how to we get there? I'd argue that the easiest and most efficient way to get to that point is for a majority of DOs to take Step year in, year out. We should be pushing for classmates to take it.
 
BorntobeDO? said:
Look I have been beating the 'take Step' drum for a long long time. I believe it helps us match. But the mentality specified in the post below needs to be addressed. That isn't how we should think of it. And judging by the likes, the majority does think that way.
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I believe that person is an MD resident. It’s simply how not taking Step is viewed by many PDs.
BorntobeDO? said:
Lets say I match into a residency without step, and one of my co-residents had step as DO, does that somehow make me a worse resident? You know it doesn't. We should be advocating for each other so maybe in the future we (DO's) won't have to take two exams just to be 'competative.' I think that sometimes we just start talking about step and act like anyone who doesn't take it is an idiot or inferior. We shouldn't do that.
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Of course not and no one is saying that. And I agree 100% we need to bad together. The difference that I see isn’t that we should band together because PD thinking is the problem, it’s that I think we need to band together and overthrow our own leadership who has shown time and time again they don’t give two farts about any of us.
BorntobeDO? said:
BTW I know you need step, and I have full confidence that you will get the specialty you desire. You have certainly put in the work grey and remain one of my favorite posters.
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Thanks bro, you’ll get what you want too
nimbus said:
It’s sad to see this kind of self diminishment on this thread. I’m an MD working in one of the most desirable cities in Southern California. Once in practice in matters zero if you are an MD or DO. 10-15 years ago there weren’t many DO’s practicing in my area. Now there are. The best general surgeon and the best slickest EP cardiologist I work with are DO’s. These guys are the equivalent of NFL Pro Bowlers. Don’t sell yourself short.

Back on topic I agree with you that most DO’s should take all the USMLEs.
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Oh I agree once you have finished residency/fellowship and are a board certified X, it doesn’t matter in the slightest. This thread is specifically talking about applying to residency though.
 
COMLEX and STEP are the proverbial "separate but equal"

Even most DOs admit the exams aren't really equal. (Note I am not talking about the caliber of student - just the exam) Yet some here insist they should be treated as such by residency program directors because to do otherwise is discriminatory.

I'll acknowledge the validity of this viewpoint, but each of you students has a decision to make: Prove your equality by taking the STEPs or Insist on your equality on principle.
 
completely dependent upon your goals and aspirations.. rural FM in home state? don't take it.. gunning for ortho, derm, etc? take it.. trying to do auditions in other states or regions? take it.. its not hard and there is a ton of information and statistics with sites like Freida. No sense in beating a dead horse.

You aren't "less of a doctor" for not taking Step. This thread has a myopic view when comparing MD vs DO as its the residency training that really puts them both on the same playing field, not if you took Comlex and Step exams to get into residency. If you need to be competitive for residency due to your situation then take Step, if you don't then don't worry about it.
 
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IntheClouds4ever said:
completely dependent upon your goals and aspirations.. rural FM in home state? don't take it.. gunning for ortho, derm, etc? take it.. trying to do auditions in other states or regions? take it.. its not hard and there is a ton of information and statistics with sites like Freida. No sense in beating a dead horse.

You aren't "less of a doctor" for not taking Step. This thread has a myopic view when comparing MD vs DO as its the residency training that really puts them both on the same playing field, not if you took Comlex and Step exams to get into residency. If you need to be competitive for residency due to your situation then take Step, if you don't then don't worry about it.
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But how many med students truly know what specialty they're gonna pursue before 3rd year?
 
Cranjis McBasketball said:
But how many med students truly know what specialty they're gonna pursue before 3rd year?
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If you don't know and you're considering anything beyond FM in your in-state university sponsored residency, then you should probably take it... Its all about which doors you are comfortable opening and closing. Don't make it more difficult than it is. I have friends (myself included) that knew they were FM for life before sitting for their first exam as an MS1.
 
Do you guys mean to take both Step 1 and Step 2 (including CS), or can I get away with only taking Step 1?
 
kus676 said:
So getting back on topic, we have the program director survey showing more PDs expect a USMLE compared to the COMLEX (I hope I understood it correctly). Other than that data, there has only been anecdotal evidence for both sides of the argument, is that right?
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No, there isn't any peer reviewed study saying what will and will not lead to a successful match other than the PDS. A study like that would be very difficult to coordinate because there is so much in the application process that is non-quantifiable and non-standardized including interview, specialty choice, specific programs. The problem is that there is such a wide range of quality between different programs within a specialty and so looking at it in aggregate is tough to make decisions on from an applicant standpoint.

Additionally, it'd be comparing apples to oranges because the single accreditation isn't fully in place until this next year.

I have been recommended this information by docs, residents, and older students:

Yhormthegiant12 said:
Do you guys mean to take both Step 1 and Step 2 (including CS), or can I get away with only taking Step 1?
Click to expand...

1) Take USMLE Step 1. This doesn't apply unless you are sold on a primary care specialty or can rank 10+ programs who are previously AOA and/or have taken DOs for 2+ classes (to show it wasn't a fluke). In the same vein, take USMLE Step 2 CK if you didn't do great on Step 1, did well and still unsure of which specialty to go into, or want to match at a competitive program. Some specialties and programs require Step 2 so if one program you're interested in does, then take it. You don't need to take CS.

2) Be Realistic and Cognizant of Your Situation. You do not need a 240 like everyone says unless you're trying for programs who haven't taken DOs or are traditionally competitive. Obviously a 240 keeps doors open, but it's really only a screening tool. Many of the cutoffs are 220 or 230, even for many general surgery or anesthesia programs. Look at the NRMP data for 2018 DO matches, and scrutinize how well people are matching with certain Step 1 and COMLEX scores (not just the average).

IntheClouds4ever said:
If you don't know and you're considering anything beyond FM in your in-state university sponsored residency, then you should probably take it... Its all about which doors you are comfortable opening and closing. Don't make it more difficult than it is. I have friends (myself included) that knew they were FM for life before sitting for their first exam as an MS1.
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3) Know Your Priorities. Take specialty preference and personality tests and have candid conversations with docs in specialties you could see yourself in (even by phone). Knowing your priorities will help to set goals for licensing exams and rotations. Many students close doors on their own because they have these grand ideas about the kind of doctor they want to be. It's a similar effect as to why some folks want to go into the Marines or SF because they have watched American Sniper and played COD.

4) Failures are the death penalty. One failure is a red flag. Three failures limits to community primary care programs or TRIs. Five failures = no match. this includes classes, clerkships, licensing exams, etc.

5) It's not about what you know or even who you know, it's about who knows you. For DO's this is even more important. Take a research year, go to conferences, and take auditions very seriously. Email programs if they will take DOs for aways and if there is anything you need. Many don't reply, but some will and can give you good tips on the VSAS process.

6) Define Your "Worst Case Scenario" Outside of Not Matching. Matching into a community FM program is still a great life, even if you were set on Neurosurgery from day one.
 
Yhormthegiant12 said:
Do you guys mean to take both Step 1 and Step 2 (including CS), or can I get away with only taking Step 1?
Click to expand...

Take Step 1 and Step 2 CK. No need for CS. I have heard more than one anecdote of being people being asked on interviews why they didn’t take Step 2 after taking Step 1, even at some low tier IM programs.

milehighsalute said:
No, there isn't any peer reviewed study saying what will and will not lead to a successful match other than the PDS. A study like that would be very difficult to coordinate because there is so much in the application process that is non-quantifiable and non-standardized including interview, specialty choice, specific programs. The problem is that there is such a wide range of quality between different programs within a specialty and so looking at it in aggregate is tough to make decisions on from an applicant standpoint.

Additionally, it'd be comparing apples to oranges because the single accreditation isn't fully in place until this next year.

I have been recommended this information by docs, residents, and older students:



1) Take USMLE Step 1. This doesn't apply unless you are sold on a primary care specialty or can rank 10+ programs who are previously AOA and/or have taken DOs for 2+ classes (to show it wasn't a fluke). In the same vein, take USMLE Step 2 CK if you didn't do great on Step 1, did well and still unsure of which specialty to go into, or want to match at a competitive program. Some specialties and programs require Step 2 so if one program you're interested in does, then take it. You don't need to take CS.

2) Be Realistic and Cognizant of Your Situation. You do not need a 240 like everyone says unless you're trying for programs who haven't taken DOs or are traditionally competitive. Obviously a 240 keeps doors open, but it's really only a screening tool. Many of the cutoffs are 220 or 230, even for many general surgery or anesthesia programs. Look at the NRMP data for 2018 DO matches, and scrutinize how well people are matching with certain Step 1 and COMLEX scores (not just the average).



3) Know Your Priorities. Take specialty preference and personality tests and have candid conversations with docs in specialties you could see yourself in (even by phone). Knowing your priorities will help to set goals for licensing exams and rotations. Many students close doors on their own because they have these grand ideas about the kind of doctor they want to be. It's a similar effect as to why some folks want to go into the Marines or SF because they have watched American Sniper and played COD.

4) Failures are the death penalty. One failure is a red flag. Three failures limits to community primary care programs or TRIs. Five failures = no match. this includes classes, clerkships, licensing exams, etc.

5) It's not about what you know or even who you know, it's about who knows you. For DO's this is even more important. Take a research year, go to conferences, and take auditions very seriously. Email programs if they will take DOs for aways and if there is anything you need. Many don't reply, but some will and can give you good tips on the VSAS process.

6) Define Your "Worst Case Scenario" Outside of Not Matching. Matching into a community FM program is still a great life, even if you were set on Neurosurgery from day one.
Click to expand...

Good post.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Take Step 1 and Step 2 CK. No need for CS. I have heard more than one anecdote of being people being asked on interviews why they didn’t take Step 2 after taking Step 1, even at some low tier IM programs.



Good post.
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There aren't any programs that also require CS?
 
Yhormthegiant12 said:
There aren't any programs that also require CS?
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Select elective rotations may require CS in certain states during 4th year. It's an extra step to prevent DOs from rotating there unless they are REALLY driven to do so. But residencies themselves do not require this.
 
Sardonix said:
Select elective rotations may require CS in certain states during 4th year. It's an extra step to prevent DOs from rotating there unless they are REALLY driven to do so. But residencies themselves do not require this.
Click to expand...
Lmfaooooo requiring i take 2 1000$ exams to show that i can get 2 participation trophies is a bit much for me IMO, gonna be a pass on those programs from me
 
The 1300 dollars I spent on taking Step 1 and 2 CK was the best money I have ever spent for my medical career, close 2nd would be for Pathoma and Uworld. Personally, I think it's lazy and irresponsible for DO students this day and age to skip these exams. You take the same classes, learn the same material, use the same Qbank there is no reason for you to not at least pass the exams. It's a waste of your time not taking these exams when you already studying for COMLEX 1 and 2, especially when they have such great resources nowadays to review and gauge your performance. Not a good test taker is more of a cop-out/excuse than a real reason. DO schools gave you a free-pass on the MCAT already.

The whole point of 4 years of medical school is to get into the best residency possible, you should do everything in your power to put yourself at a competitive advantage. I don't need published 'evidence' to go the extra mile to benefit my career, even though supposedly it's 'anecdotal.' What do you think would happen after you didn't match? Can you move in and live with that doctor at your school, who 'challenged' you to find the evidence?
 
The most common question I've been asked by program faculty on my aways has been whether or not I've taken step 1. In fact, that's often the first question I'm asked aside from "where are you from?" This includes DO programs (albeit by MD faculty at said programs). This is for a surgical specialty so it may be different in other fields. I'd say, based on my experience, there is ample anecdotal evidence that it is extremely important, aside from what we already know from the PD survey. It is even more important with the merger.
 
FourniersGreenGang said:
The most common question I've been asked by program faculty on my aways has been whether or not I've taken step 1. In fact, that's often the first question I'm asked aside from "where are you from?" This includes DO programs (albeit by MD faculty at said programs). This is for a surgical specialty so it may be different in other fields. I'd say, based on my experience, there is ample anecdotal evidence that it is extremely important, aside from what we already know from the PD survey. It is even more important with the merger.
Click to expand...
Not the first question I've been asked, but even in a non-competitive specialty I've been asked this by PDs at ACGME programs. Step 1 AND Step 2.
 
I guess the silver lining is that as DOs we have the option to delay taking Step 1 until during or after 3rd year if we want... I'm just happy we can get away with not taking Step 2 CS.
 
Yhormthegiant12 said:
I guess the silver lining is that as DOs we have the option to delay taking Step 1 until during or after 3rd year if we want... I'm just happy we can get away with not taking Step 2 CS.
Click to expand...
The downside is you won't have a Step 1 score for audition/away rotations or even letter writers. But I agree
 
FourniersGreenGang said:
Yeah but try to take step 1 after your dedicated. Studying during rotations is hard enough as it is.
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Yeah a lot of MD programs are moving to taking Step 1 in third year, but they have dedicated study/research time that comes close to 3 months in the middle of the year. I have a friend planning on taking it this fall and it's going to be a real pain in the A to try and learn the krebs cycle as he's rounding on pts.
 
jkdoctor said:
Step 1 averages by school


RVU had a Step 1 average of 220 back in 2017.
It appears RVU no longer publishes their USMLE average. I wonder if the averages have dropped with the opening of the Utah branch campus.
Click to expand...

KCU published their step 1 average this year for the first time in a long time. 228 with n=268. Still some people who are taking it 3rd year but average will probably stay around there. This is the class with the new Joplin campus too.
 
Dr.Bruh said:
KCU published their step 1 average this year for the first time in a long time. 228 with n=268. Still some people who are taking it 3rd year but average will probably stay around there. This is the class with the new Joplin campus too.
Click to expand...

I wonder if they lumped all the KCU scores in with KU's because everyone just thinks we go to KU anyway.

I'm curious if people at those schools like BCM or Mayo are just prone to greatness, or if they are provided opportunities and have stronger curricula that lead to 245 averages lol. Probably both but still interesting nonetheless.
 
milehighsalute said:
I wonder if they lumped all the KCU scores in with KU's because everyone just thinks we go to KU anyway.

I'm curious if people at those schools like BCM or Mayo are just prone to greatness, or if they are provided opportunities and have stronger curricula that lead to 245 averages lol. Probably both but still interesting nonetheless.
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Neither. They are just a stronger group of medical students as a whole- smarter, harder working, more motivated etc. Good input = good output, higher-achieving undergrads tend to become higher-achieving medical students.

milehighsalute said:
Yeah a lot of MD programs are moving to taking Step 1 in third year, but they have dedicated study/research time that comes close to 3 months in the middle of the year. I have a friend planning on taking it this fall and it's going to be a real pain in the A to try and learn the krebs cycle as he's rounding on pts.
Click to expand...
It's actually not that bad if you learned it well the first time. The clinical experience you got after 3rd year gives you a much larger advantage to compensate for that since most of Step 1 is just Pathophysiology
 
UnoMas said:
Neither. They are just a stronger group of medical students as a whole- smarter, harder working, more motivated etc. Good input = good output, higher-achieving undergrads tend to become higher-achieving medical students.


It's actually not that bad if you learned it well the first time. The clinical experience you got after 3rd year gives you a much larger advantage to compensate for that since most of Step 1 is just Pathophysiology
Click to expand...

I agree they are stronger medical students (ie better standardized test takers etc). But the idea that they are harder working and more motivated is nonsense. Vast majority of medical students are hard working and motivated. DOs typically have a chip on their shoulder too and know we have to overperform for less opportunity in the match. I know my class was going harder than many of my MD friends due to that added pressure.
 
Dr.Bruh said:
I agree they are stronger medical students (ie better standardized test takers etc). But the idea that they are harder working and more motivated is nonsense. Vast majority of medical students are hard working and motivated. DOs typically have a chip on their shoulder too and know we have to overperform for less opportunity in the match. I know my class was going harder than many of my MD friends due to that added pressure.
Click to expand...
Step scores are a direct reflection of hard work and test taking ability, but mostly hard work. The averages are thus impacted by how much work that class put in. If you class is working harder than the classes of your MD friends it will show up.
 
I was getting info on the programs I am applying to and MULTIPLE said osteopathic applications will not be reviewed without a USMLE step 1 AND step 2 ck score.

Take the test everyone. Don't risk your future over being lazy and or 700$ (or whatever it costs) saved
 
Dr.Bruh said:
I agree they are stronger medical students (ie better standardized test takers etc). But the idea that they are harder working and more motivated is nonsense. Vast majority of medical students are hard working and motivated. DOs typically have a chip on their shoulder too and know we have to overperform for less opportunity in the match. I know my class was going harder than many of my MD friends due to that added pressure.
Click to expand...

Ah the ‘good standardized test taking’ genes. People are just born with them.
 
UnoMas said:
Ah the ‘good standardized test taking’ genes. People are just born with them.
Click to expand...
I never believed it until I met so many people who knew the material cold but just always talked themselves out of the answer.

Fortunately, the test taking ability required for our board exams isn’t very high.
 
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