Exotics/Small animal speciality

[XCTFnba]

Hello fellow prevet students,
I am new to the forum and I've had this question that I've been burning to ask for a while.
I am wanting to go into a field where I can work with both small animal and exotics (birds, reptiles, amphibians). I know NC state has that program, but I was curious if anybody knew of any other programs that offered that same concentration. Also, I am thinking about going zoo medicine if I cannot do the previous option, so I'd like to know if anybody knows about any schools for zoo medicine. Thank you guys!

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[SkiOtter]

You’ll get a great education about all species at any school. The navle doesn’t care what you want to go into in the future, it tests you on all of it. Which means you gotta learn it all.
GO TO THE CHEAPEST SCHOOL. You’ll thank yourself later when you’re paying less loans and less interest on those loans. If the cheapest school doesn’t have tons of exotics stuff, there usually is some amount of time that you can book outside externships during. Go to the cheapest school.

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

Hello fellow prevet students,
I am new to the forum and I've had this question that I've been burning to ask for a while.
I am wanting to go into a field where I can work with both small animal and exotics (birds, reptiles, amphibians). I know NC state has that program, but I was curious if anybody knew of any other programs that offered that same concentration. Also, I am thinking about going zoo medicine if I cannot do the previous option, so I'd like to know if anybody knows about any schools for zoo medicine. Thank you guys!

Im a bit confused about what you're asking.

A DVM allows you to practice medicine on any animal species. Whether or not you should is another question...

If you are interested in exotics, you pick electives that focus on exotics. If you REALLY want to work with exotics, you can get boarded.

See here: Recognized Veterinary Specialties | American Board of Veterinary Practitioners

Becoming boarded in exotics will not prevent you from working with small animals and is not determined by which school you attend.
If you are not boarded, it really will not look any different to a prespective employer what program you attended- the boards are what matter, in most cases but of course with exception.

 

[that redhead]

Go to your cheapest school and then just take electives or rotations in things that interest you. I’m just a GP but I work with all small and exotic animals and went through no special training in order to do so. I did take a few exotics focused rotations in fourth year though.

 

[SnowJ]

If you really want to get exotics experience/extra education on exotics while in vet school, many schools will have clubs, electives, etc even if they don't have a specific track for it. You will get a good education anywhere, and I think most schools will have opportunities to supplement your exotics education if that's what you want to pursue. This is something I asked about during interviews since a majority of vet schools don't have a track for exotics, or much exotic-specific material in their core curriculum.
I only really know about UMN, but what we have here is a Zoo, Exotics, Avian and Wildlife club that does lunch lectures on topics in this field/how to get into the field, and I think some wetllabs. We also have electives about Non-domestic veterinary medicine in general, but also specific to zoo/wildlife. (This is as a first year, not sure what is available in later years)

 

[genny]

I’m just a a superstar GP

Ftfy.

 

[XCTFnba]

Thanks everybody for responding! I've just been really passionate about going this route since I was a kid. I really like dogs and cats and yet I also wanted to work with other animals such as lizards and frogs and snakes and such. I wanted to be able to do both since that's just want I want to do. It really helped to know what the DVM encompassed (I thought going specific tracts meant only working with those animals). It's good to know that the DVM is more broad and overarching than I thought.


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[SkiOtter]

Thanks everybody for responding! I've just been really passionate about going this route since I was a kid. I really like dogs and cats and yet I also wanted to work with other animals such as lizards and frogs and snakes and such. I wanted to be able to do both since that's just want I want to do. It really helped to know what the DVM encompassed (I thought going specific tracts meant only working with those animals). It's good to know that the DVM is more broad and overarching than I thought.


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Have you shadowed some vets?? Your last sentence makes me think no or minimally?

 

[XCTFnba]

Have you shadowed some vets?? Your last sentence makes me think no or minimally?

Yes I have, but it's been a couple of years. When I went to college I kind of went down a different career path for a while before rearranging my priorities back to this profession.


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[WhtsThFrequency]

Im a bit confused about what you're asking.

A DVM allows you to practice medicine on any animal species. Whether or not you should is another question...

If you are interested in exotics, you pick electives that focus on exotics. If you REALLY want to work with exotics, you can get boarded.

See here: Recognized Veterinary Specialties | American Board of Veterinary Practitioners

Becoming boarded in exotics will not prevent you from working with small animals and is not determined by which school you attend.
If you are not boarded, it really will not look any different to a prespective employer what program you attended- the boards are what matter, in most cases but of course with exception.

And as an aside (for the OP) the residencies needed for zoo/exotics are some of the hardest to get out of all specialties. You can't just waltz into specializing. It requires at least 3 years of additional training after the 4 years of vet school, and that is if you are lucky enough to be selected for a residency position at all. It's a tiny field and incredibly competitive.

 

[SkiOtter]

Yes I have, but it's been a couple of years. When I went to college I kind of went down a different career path for a while before rearranging my priorities back to this profession.


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Definitely recommend getting some more experience since it’s been a while before fully committing to vetmed and taking prereqs if you don’t have them all

 

[pinkpuppy9]

And as an aside (for the OP) the residencies needed for zoo/exotics are some of the hardest to get out of all specialties. You can't just waltz into specializing. It requires at least 3 years of additional training after the 4 years of vet school, and that is if you are lucky enough to be selected for a residency position at all. It's a tiny field and incredibly competitive.

This is true, but you also don't need to complete a residency to be ABVP or ACZM boarded (but OP should probably do some legitimate research on zoo med/exotics specializing and find out the details of both residency and practitioner tracks, especially since it sounds like OP is saying zoo med is his/her backup to small animal + exotics GP in the first post).

 

[mypetmoose]

If you really want to get exotics experience/extra education on exotics while in vet school, many schools will have clubs, electives, etc even if they don't have a specific track for it. You will get a good education anywhere, and I think most schools will have opportunities to supplement your exotics education if that's what you want to pursue. This is something I asked about during interviews since a majority of vet schools don't have a track for exotics, or much exotic-specific material in their core curriculum.
I only really know about UMN, but what we have here is a Zoo, Exotics, Avian and Wildlife club that does lunch lectures on topics in this field/how to get into the field, and I think some wetllabs. We also have electives about Non-domestic veterinary medicine in general, but also specific to zoo/wildlife. (This is as a first year, not sure what is available in later years)

That's exciting to hear about exotics at Minnesota and about the clubs and lunch lectures! And doesn't Minnesota have a relatively good relationship with the Minnesota Zoo and Como Park?

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[SkiOtter]

it sounds like OP is saying zoo med is his/her backup to small animal + exotics GP in the first post

So backwards from what most people interested in zoomed’s plan is

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

This is true, but you also don't need to complete a residency to be ABVP or ACZM boarded (but OP should probably do some legitimate research on zoo med/exotics specializing and find out the details of both residency and practitioner tracks, especially since it sounds like OP is saying zoo med is his/her backup to small animal + exotics GP in the first post).

Oh really for ACZM? So, kinda like lab animal (work for x number of years track vs formal residency track, then both can take boards?) didn't know that. However I would imagine the formal residency preps you far more comprehensively.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Oh really for ACZM? So, kinda like lab animal (work for x number of years track vs formal residency track, then both can take boards?) didn't know that. However I would imagine the formal residency preps you far more comprehensively.

Yep! Currently you can either do a residency + 3 satisfactory publications or 6 years of relevant work experience + 3 satisfactory publications. They also are overhauling the exam structure for 2019 and just recently dropped the publication requirement from 5 to 3.

I know several boarded vets who prepped themselves just fine for the exam. As long as you have access to publications through your workplace (or have a really generous friend), you'll prep just as much as a resident would. Many non-residents set up their own journal club groups, too. It can help to have someone who has already passed telling you 'Know this, don't worry about that' but you can get that outside of a residency.

Also ETA: a good number of people take at least two, if not more, tries to pass the exam whether they've completed a residency or not

 

[SnowJ]

That's exciting to hear about exotics at Minnesota and about the clubs and lunch lectures! And doesn't Minnesota have a relatively good relationship with the Minnesota Zoo and Como Park?

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Yep! One of the professors is a vet for one of the zoos (I can't remember which one right now), plus we have the Raptor Center and Wildlife Rehabilitation center as partners too.

 

[CoffeeQuestionMark]

Yep! One of the professors is a vet for one of the zoos (I can't remember which one right now), plus we have the Raptor Center and Wildlife Rehabilitation center as partners too.

Dr Trent isn't it?

 

[SnowJ]

Dr Trent isn't it?

Yep!

 

[that redhead]

@WhtsThFrequency @pinkpuppy9 As someone who has tried very hard to get into lab animal through the “work” route...you may not need the residency on paper but these jobs are almost exclusively selecting people who have been through residency. They’ll say you need a certain number of years working in lab animal -as a vet- or the catchphrase of death “board eligible”. It would also be pretty tough to get your research done and papers written outside of a traditional residency. So while you’re right that it isn’t strictly necessary to go through a residency, for all intents and purposes you can’t do much without one.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yep! Currently you can either do a residency + 3 satisfactory publications or 6 years of relevant work experience + 3 satisfactory publications. They also are overhauling the exam structure for 2019 and just recently dropped the publication requirement from 5 to 3.

I know several boarded vets who prepped themselves just fine for the exam. As long as you have access to publications through your workplace (or have a really generous friend), you'll prep just as much as a resident would. Many non-residents set up their own journal club groups, too. It can help to have someone who has already passed telling you 'Know this, don't worry about that' but you can get that outside of a residency.

Also ETA: a good number of people take at least two, if not more, tries to pass the exam whether they've completed a residency or not

Huh. Their exam must be very different from ours and much more heavily based on publications - or the people you are referring to are geniuses who have a lot of time on their hands. I can't imagine passing path boards without residency. We were worked, quizzed, and drilled almost every day for boards for 3 straight years (which is why our program had a 90%+ first time pass rate when the average is generally around 40%). Like redhead said, finding time to prep while working full time must be incredibly difficult.

 

[Lab Vet]

@WhtsThFrequency @pinkpuppy9 As someone who has tried very hard to get into lab animal through the “work” route...you may not need the residency on paper but these jobs are almost exclusively selecting people who have been through residency. They’ll say you need a certain number of years working in lab animal -as a vet- or the catchphrase of death “board eligible”. It would also be pretty tough to get your research done and papers written outside of a traditional residency. So while you’re right that it isn’t strictly necessary to go through a residency, for all intents and purposes you can’t do much without one.

I agree. This is 100% true. Previously, when LAM was hurting for folks to enter the field, institutions (be they corporate or academic) were willing to take veterinarians who hadn't completed a residency. These days, there are so many boarded folks on the market, that it's just about impossible to land one of those jobs without having gone the training program route. I'm really sorry that this happened to you, @that redhead. I wish that things were different.

 

[Lab Vet]

Huh. Their exam must be very different from ours and much more heavily based on publications - or the people you are referring to are geniuses who have a lot of time on their hands. I can't imagine passing path boards without residency. We were worked, quizzed, and drilled almost every day for boards for 3 straight years (which is why our program had a 90%+ first time pass rate when the average is generally around 40%). Like redhead said, finding time to prep while working full time must be incredibly difficult.

Much of my boards studying will be done outside of residency, WTF. Much of the LAM information that is tested on boards, you'll never actually see (clinically) as a resident. Yes, there is a hefty literature requirement for ACLAM boards as well- and a fair amount of path. It is not uncommon for LAM residents to take a full year of self-prep post-residency to fully prepare for the exam. I agree- it's very difficult to do this while working full time

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Much of my boards studying will be done outside of residency, WTF. Much of the LAM information that is tested on boards, you'll never actually see (clinically) as a resident. Yes, there is a hefty literature requirement for ACLAM boards as well- and a fair amount of path. It is not uncommon for LAM residents to take a full year of self-prep post-residency to fully prepare for the exam. I agree- it's very difficult to do this while working full time

I can't even imagine. Typically in our third year our floor/scope duties are cut drastically to give us time for personal board prep, but we were also drilled regularly when not on a case (slide rounds, blind slide reading, timed mock boards, etc). The nature of our clinical duties likely put us in a better/easier place than lab animal residents, who have to be clinical 24/7 early on and probably don't have as much time.

Literature review is 25% of our boards and includes 3-5 years of articles from about 6 different journals and I can't even remember how many tome-sized texts. It's a beast even though its just 25%. Then it is 25% molecular biology/immunology/physiology/biochem etc, and 25% timed gross, and 25% timed glass. Damn, having flashbacks just thinking about it.

That's cool you guys get path - we actually have a specific lab animal section too on our boards - for the lit section (also called "vet path" section) , subsections of small animal and large animal/equine path are required, and then you can choose lab animal or zoo path. Our specialties play pretty well together anyway so it makes sense we have to know about each other.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

I agree. This is 100% true. Previously, when LAM was hurting for folks to enter the field, institutions (be they corporate or academic) were willing to take veterinarians who hadn't completed a residency. These days, there are so many boarded folks on the market, that it's just about impossible to land one of those jobs without having gone the training program route. I'm really sorry that this happened to you, @that redhead. I wish that things were different.

That's really good to know. The SO is interested in lab animal medicine but neither here nor there on pursuing residency (he's a nontrad so will be early/mid-thirties when he finishes) due to time, and was thinking about the work route.

I don't know if you or @that redhead would know, but he was curious as to if the publications he had during his PhD (he's a combined program, just defended this fall and in second year of the DVM) would "count" in that publication requirement. I told him most likely it would not since it was done previous to starting a lab animal job, but could not say for sure. I.e., is it "any" publications or would only publications after graduation count?

 

[XCTFnba]

I apologize, this is definitely a lot of information to take in. I'm always so confused on the whole residency issues and all that kind of stuff. I'll admit I don't spend much time looking at that. I'm the type of person that doesn't like to procrastinate but I also haven't looked at the whole residency thing cause I know that I will be educated on that aspect down the road later. I was just curious if there was a particular requirement to practice on those two different fields given the way some vet schools have concentrations within vet school. It's all fairly confusing to me, just because I read conflicting messages here and there about it I'm never sure who's right. I guess the best thing I can do is go to the most affordable option for school and then explore the field there (in this case, it would probably be UGA). Then I can immerse myself in clubs and clinics that genuinely interest me. And then I can go from there?


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[XCTFnba]

I definitely appreciate all you guy's information. Again it's a lot to take in, but I just want to know this now so that I can go down the career path I want to do


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[WhtsThFrequency]

I apologize, this is definitely a lot of information to take in. I'm always so confused on the whole residency issues and all that kind of stuff. I'll admit I don't spend much time looking at that. I'm the type of person that doesn't like to procrastinate but I also haven't looked at the whole residency thing cause I know that I will be educated on that aspect down the road later. I was just curious if there was a particular requirement to practice on those two different fields given the way some vet schools have concentrations within vet school. It's all fairly confusing to me, just because I read conflicting messages here and there about it I'm never sure who's right. I guess the best thing I can do is go to the most affordable option for school and then explore the field there (in this case, it would probably be UGA). Then I can immerse myself in clubs and clinics that genuinely interest me. And then I can go from there?


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No vet school really "specializes" in a certain area of vet med. All vet students will take all the same core courses and rotations, and to pass veterinary boards you will have to be competent with all species. A DVM is a generalist.

All schools will have electives that you can take if you want more exposure to different areas.

Some schools also "track" which provides additional elective opportunities for people who want to be in certain areas (e.g. small animal vs food animal vs equine). However, again - everyone will take all of the same core courses and electives.

Really, concentrating on a particular area in vet school is much more up to you than the school itself.

Once you graduate, you can technically work anywhere you want and with anything. However, you will be limited by your own experience and comfort level. With a good mentor, this can change with time. Over time, you can become a specialist-of-sorts through work (or at least, a vet who is more in a niche area)

If you want to become a true boarded specialist - this is a certified person who has taken an additional specialty exam - in a specific discipline, you typically pursue an internship and then a residency, which combined are about four more years of school. You have to apply to these positions just like you applied to vet school.

Does that help?

I think going to the cheapest school you can and taking advantage of things like electives, wet labs, clubs and such is your best bet. As well as using your summers to network.

 

[that redhead]

That's really good to know. The SO is interested in lab animal medicine but neither here nor there on pursuing residency (he's a nontrad so will be early/mid-thirties when he finishes) due to time, and was thinking about the work route.

I don't know if you or @that redhead would know, but he was curious as to if the publications he had during his PhD (he's a combined program, just defended this fall and in second year of the DVM) would "count" in that publication requirement. I told him most likely it would not since it was done previous to starting a lab animal job, but could not say for sure. I.e., is it "any" publications or would only publications after graduation count?

If he wants to do LAM, absolutely 100% recommend residency. It used to be lab animal really needed vets but that hasn’t been the case for a while now. Yet still parroted in vet schools/VINers, etc that anyone can get this cushy job in LAM.

The paper would need to be lab animal oriented, not just any published article.

@Lab Vet thanks- it is what it is, and I think I’ll always have that “what if” feeling unfortunately. I was offered interviews after the match deadline had passed but had already accepted a job and (stupid me) felt as though I owed it to them to start as I’d promised. A few other personal reasons as well, but in the end, part of me definitely regrets passing on them. The regret and angst has subsided as I’ve been markedly happier at my second job but still. I entertained the idea of going back but my two nearest programs are over an hour away and their residents said it may be a dealbreaker for being on-call, etc.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on. I hope things work out for you

 

[XCTFnba]

No vet school really "specializes" in a certain area of vet med. All vet students will take all the same core courses and rotations, and to pass veterinary boards you will have to be competent with all species. A DVM is a generalist.

All schools will have electives that you can take if you want more exposure to different areas.

Some schools also "track" which provides additional elective opportunities for people who want to be in certain areas (e.g. small animal vs food animal vs equine). However, again - everyone will take all of the same core courses and electives.

Really, concentrating on a particular area in vet school is much more up to you than the school itself.

Once you graduate, you can technically work anywhere you want and with anything. However, you will be limited by your own experience and comfort level. With a good mentor, this can change with time. Over time, you can become a specialist-of-sorts through work (or at least, a vet who is more in a niche area)

If you want to become a true boarded specialist - this is a certified person who has taken an additional specialty exam - in a specific discipline, you typically pursue an internship and then a residency, which combined are about four more years of school. You have to apply to these positions just like you applied to vet school.

Does that help?

I think going to the cheapest school you can and taking advantage of things like electives, wet labs, clubs and such is your best bet. As well as using your summers to network.

Yes that really helps thank you


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[XCTFnba]

If he wants to do LAM, absolutely 100% recommend residency. It used to be lab animal really needed vets but that hasn’t been the case for a while now. Yet still parroted in vet schools/VINers, etc that anyone can get this cushy job in LAM.

The paper would need to be lab animal oriented, not just any published article.

@Lab Vet thanks- it is what it is, and I think I’ll always have that “what if” feeling unfortunately. I was offered interviews after the match deadline had passed but had already accepted a job and (stupid me) felt as though I owed it to them to start as I’d promised. A few other personal reasons as well, but in the end, part of me definitely regrets passing on them. The regret and angst has subsided as I’ve been markedly happier at my second job but still. I entertained the idea of going back but my two nearest programs are over an hour away and their residents said it may be a dealbreaker for being on-call, etc.

Anyway, sorry to ramble on. I hope things work out for you

Thanks. I'm just all over the place. Trying to get animal shelter hours during free time, finding time to study, finding internships, going to prevet meetings. Just really busy. Plus I'm a student athlete so I'm just always busy. I believe I'll get it though. I'm a dedicated hard worker so I'll get there. Thanks for the support.


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[WhtsThFrequency]

I agree. This is 100% true. Previously, when LAM was hurting for folks to enter the field, institutions (be they corporate or academic) were willing to take veterinarians who hadn't completed a residency. These days, there are so many boarded folks on the market, that it's just about impossible to land one of those jobs without having gone the training program route.

If he wants to do LAM, absolutely 100% recommend residency. It used to be lab animal really needed vets but that hasn’t been the case for a while now. Yet still parroted in vet schools/VINers, etc that anyone can get this cushy job in LAM.

The paper would need to be lab animal oriented, not just any published article.

I'll definitely let him know. He's not totally against residency, just pulling the "hurr hurr hurr I'm so old card" (which he isn't, he's 31...although living in a college town makes it easy to feel old in such a young environment - hell, I'm 34 and feel ancient sometimes)

He's also quite into radiology, but not at all thrilled about the fact that he'd have to do a rotating internship first which he has little interest in. I feel him - I would have hated one. Residency was awesome though. I actually miss it, in hindsight. It was hard AF but I was doing what I loved all day every day. Not to say my current job isn't great as well but yannow.

 

[KCgophervet]

Yep! One of the professors is a vet for one of the zoos (I can't remember which one right now), plus we have the Raptor Center and Wildlife Rehabilitation center as partners too.

Dr Trent at Como Zoo - which is like 1 mile away from the vet school. The Raptor Center is literally across the street.

Dr Trent isn't it?

@WhtsThFrequency @pinkpuppy9 As someone who has tried very hard to get into lab animal through the “work” route...you may not need the residency on paper but these jobs are almost exclusively selecting people who have been through residency. They’ll say you need a certain number of years working in lab animal -as a vet- or the catchphrase of death “board eligible”. It would also be pretty tough to get your research done and papers written outside of a traditional residency. So while you’re right that it isn’t strictly necessary to go through a residency, for all intents and purposes you can’t do much without one.

Yes! My mentor in vet school was a lab animal non-boarded vet who was trying to go the experience route and just straight up said it was super challenging to find the time or support to get the requirements done, not to mention studying for the exam. That and the field is becoming more and more boarded so the advertisements you see pop up are always preferring boarded or boards-eligible (meaning you can sit for boards aka typically have finished a residency) applicants. The lab animal vet who originally got me into the field (and retired after I got into vet school to put it in perspective) tried to encourage me to go out and work GP for a bit and then just get a job in lab animal (as opposed to a residency), but honestly I don't think it works quite that way anymore for the vast majority of people.

 

[KCgophervet]

Much of my boards studying will be done outside of residency, WTF. Much of the LAM information that is tested on boards, you'll never actually see (clinically) as a resident. Yes, there is a hefty literature requirement for ACLAM boards as well- and a fair amount of path. It is not uncommon for LAM residents to take a full year of self-prep post-residency to fully prepare for the exam. I agree- it's very difficult to do this while working full time

This is going to be pretty residency specific though. In my program we get crap tons of prep training for boards, seminars, path rounds, one on one reading assignments with our current senior vet mentor, and lots of repetition (this is why I ranked this program #1 though because I definitely need the guided mentorship and study prep help). That being said, the timing for LAM boards is stupid - you have to apply and be "eligible" the December before you take boards which is in late June or early July. So if you finish your program in June (which is when most end) you wouldn't be able to apply for boards until the following December and then have to take boards the following year. So basically you finish a training program and then wait a year to take boards... dumb. Some programs will sign off that you've completed their program in December so you can take boards at the end of your last year but there's only a few that will do that.

That's really good to know. The SO is interested in lab animal medicine but neither here nor there on pursuing residency (he's a nontrad so will be early/mid-thirties when he finishes) due to time, and was thinking about the work route.

I don't know if you or @that redhead would know, but he was curious as to if the publications he had during his PhD (he's a combined program, just defended this fall and in second year of the DVM) would "count" in that publication requirement. I told him most likely it would not since it was done previous to starting a lab animal job, but could not say for sure. I.e., is it "any" publications or would only publications after graduation count?

YES his publications will likely count. It just needs to be hypothesis driven in a peer reviewed article. I had a publication from before vet school that I submitted this year for "pre-approval" for boards and it was accepted.

I apologize, this is definitely a lot of information to take in. I'm always so confused on the whole residency issues and all that kind of stuff. I'll admit I don't spend much time looking at that. I'm the type of person that doesn't like to procrastinate but I also haven't looked at the whole residency thing cause I know that I will be educated on that aspect down the road later. I was just curious if there was a particular requirement to practice on those two different fields given the way some vet schools have concentrations within vet school. It's all fairly confusing to me, just because I read conflicting messages here and there about it I'm never sure who's right. I guess the best thing I can do is go to the most affordable option for school and then explore the field there (in this case, it would probably be UGA). Then I can immerse myself in clubs and clinics that genuinely interest me. And then I can go from there?


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Just to address the bolded above - don't count on getting specific education or lectures on residency programs while you're in vet school. You should really do your own research and self-education into the fields you're interested in. We definitely didn't have any formal "this is what a residency is and how to get one" class.

If he wants to do LAM, absolutely 100% recommend residency. It used to be lab animal really needed vets but that hasn’t been the case for a while now. Yet still parroted in vet schools/VINers, etc that anyone can get this cushy job in LAM.

The paper would need to be lab animal oriented, not just any published article.

Just wanted to highlight that the above is not correct. Just has to be hypothesis driven and peer reviewed and accepted by the ACLAM peeps. Does not specifically have to be lab animal focused, they just want proof that you understand research and the scientific method/aspects of the field.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Huh. Their exam must be very different from ours and much more heavily based on publications - or the people you are referring to are geniuses who have a lot of time on their hands. I can't imagine passing path boards without residency. We were worked, quizzed, and drilled almost every day for boards for 3 straight years (which is why our program had a 90%+ first time pass rate when the average is generally around 40%). Like redhead said, finding time to prep while working full time must be incredibly difficult.

ACZM boards are solely based on the last 5 years of relevant publications ( https://s3.amazonaws.com/ClubExpres...18.pdf&Signature=MTZuR9thCUQ1xg/kRC7Y6ng6Rv0= ). They give you a list of books/journals they pull from, too, so really you just need to have access. The questions are literally something along the lines of 'In hamsters, what drug has been shown to cause ____?' and you had to have read that specific publication from 2015 to know the answer. Or they'll pull from image captions in the CRC textbook, or graphs, etc. And 2/3 publications can be case reports which helps as well.

We've discussed this before at some point, but I'll say again that residency is 'easier' in the sense that you have to have a mentor guide you and you'll have no problem accessing literature, but it's not some impossible task to do it the experiential route. A good number of my mentors did exactly this.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

ACZM boards are solely based on the last 5 years of relevant publications ( https://s3.amazonaws.com/ClubExpressClubFiles/366916/documents/ACZM_20reading_20list_202018_1247465498.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIB6I23VLJX7E4J7Q&Expires=1542312264&response-content-disposition=inline; filename=ACZM_20reading_20list_202018.pdf&Signature=MTZuR9thCUQ1xg/kRC7Y6ng6Rv0= ). They give you a list of books/journals they pull from, too, so really you just need to have access. The questions are literally something along the lines of 'In hamsters, what drug has been shown to cause ____?' and you had to have read that specific publication from 2015 to know the answer. Or they'll pull from image captions in the CRC textbook, or graphs, etc. And 2/3 publications can be case reports which helps as well.

We've discussed this before at some point, but I'll say again that residency is 'easier' in the sense that you have to have a mentor guide you and you'll have no problem accessing literature, but it's not some impossible task to do it the experiential route. A good number of my mentors did exactly this.

Yeah, our lit section was like that too. I still remember a question along the lines of "When rats are administered X drug for 72, but not 24, hours, the pathologic change in their kidneys is...?" Gawd, I can't image an entire exam of that. Blah. I mean I'm all for detail....but there is detail and there is picky.

I can see it being possible to do it on your own if publication review was the majority of the exam - we were on our own for that section as well and had to do it ourselves. But if it was a more diverse exam with more diagnostic/hands-on components (I guess in our case, the gross/glass was the hands-on part), I feel that having that structured training and prep - and the resources these programs provide - would be almost necessary for a decent shot at a first or second time pass. E.g. there's no way I could have passed gross/glass while working full time at IDEXX or something looking at SA biopsies all day.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

YES his publications will likely count. It just needs to be hypothesis driven in a peer reviewed article. I had a publication from before vet school that I submitted this year for "pre-approval" for boards and it was accepted.

Ahh, ok, nice. Yeah, they were mouse models of disease and in peer reviewed journals.

 

[that redhead]

@kcoughli have they changed that recently? When I was reading up on requirements back during vet school, I swear it had to be at least somehow connected to lab animal. Sounds like @WhtsThFrequency ’s beau’s work would still be applicable regardless.

 

[KCgophervet]

@kcoughli have they changed that recently? When I was reading up on requirements back during vet school, I swear it had to be at least somehow connected to lab animal. Sounds like @WhtsThFrequency ’s beau’s work would still be applicable regardless.

From the website:

"Publication
The publication requirement demonstrates that candidates have a clear working knowledge of the scientific method used to explore questions in the biological sciences. Serving as first author of an original research article demonstrates application of the scientific method, and most paper topics will fall under the biological sciences. For topics outside the biological sciences, the manuscripts must otherwise be relevant to laboratory animal science. . This article must be published in a peer-reviewed journal and be fully accepted at the time of application."

So I guess my thoughts were under the assumption that it was a biology-related PhD and so long as it's bio-related they seem to be fine with it. But I guess outside of bio it needs to be lab-animal related. There are also requirements like it needs to have an intro, methods, results, discussion etc sections. I don't think it's changed though (at least not super recently) because I was pretty stoked when applying to vet school that my paper that was going to be published would qualify.

 

[Lab Vet]

This is going to be pretty residency specific though. In my program we get crap tons of prep training for boards, seminars, path rounds, one on one reading assignments with our current senior vet mentor, and lots of repetition (this is why I ranked this program #1 though because I definitely need the guided mentorship and study prep help). That being said, the timing for LAM boards is stupid - you have to apply and be "eligible" the December before you take boards which is in late June or early July. So if you finish your program in June (which is when most end) you wouldn't be able to apply for boards until the following December and then have to take boards the following year. So basically you finish a training program and then wait a year to take boards... dumb. Some programs will sign off that you've completed their program in December so you can take boards at the end of your last year but there's only a few that will do that.

Hi there. I agree. I almost placed a disclaimer on my comment before I hit 'post reply' but wasn't quick enough Residency training (at least in this field) varies wildly between institutions. I would say that I my program offers trainees a decent scaffolding with respect to exam content, but makes it clear that the majority of boards preparation is left to the resident. I'm confident that I'll succeed in preparing on my own, but definitely will not be 'boards ready' the summer that I graduate. It will definitely take me the full year of self-study (especially when working full time) to complete my prep. Glad to hear that things are going well for you. It was fun to meet you in person at the national conference this past month. Great talk, by the way

 

[WildZoo]

And as an aside (for the OP) the residencies needed for zoo/exotics are some of the hardest to get out of all specialties. You can't just waltz into specializing. It requires at least 3 years of additional training after the 4 years of vet school, and that is if you are lucky enough to be selected for a residency position at all. It's a tiny field and incredibly competitive.

Gotta love that 5-11% match rate for zoo residencies!

 

[WildZoo]

Yep! Currently you can either do a residency + 3 satisfactory publications or 6 years of relevant work experience + 3 satisfactory publications. They also are overhauling the exam structure for 2019 and just recently dropped the publication requirement from 5 to 3.

I know several boarded vets who prepped themselves just fine for the exam. As long as you have access to publications through your workplace (or have a really generous friend), you'll prep just as much as a resident would. Many non-residents set up their own journal club groups, too. It can help to have someone who has already passed telling you 'Know this, don't worry about that' but you can get that outside of a residency.

Also ETA: a good number of people take at least two, if not more, tries to pass the exam whether they've completed a residency or not

They bumped it down to 3 publications?? That's awesome, didn't realize that had happened.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Gotta love that 5-11% match rate for zoo residencies!

Path is about the same. To this day I don't know why my program took a chance on me, but thank goodness they did and I've done 'em proud as far as I can tell. Cardio, diagnostic imaging, and optho are pretty damn competitive too. Probably due to so few positions and the fact that specializing is optional for us in the first place (although becoming more and more common). Last figure I saw was something around 1/5 to 1/4 of graduates going to residency.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

They bumped it down to 3 publications?? That's awesome, didn't realize that had happened.

Probably a good thing, as it gives people a chance to do 3 higher quality pubs rather than ****ting out 5 lukewarm case reports.

 

[WildZoo]

ACZM boards are solely based on the last 5 years of relevant publications ( https://s3.amazonaws.com/ClubExpressClubFiles/366916/documents/ACZM_20reading_20list_202018_1247465498.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIB6I23VLJX7E4J7Q&Expires=1542312264&response-content-disposition=inline; filename=ACZM_20reading_20list_202018.pdf&Signature=MTZuR9thCUQ1xg/kRC7Y6ng6Rv0= ). They give you a list of books/journals they pull from, too, so really you just need to have access. The questions are literally something along the lines of 'In hamsters, what drug has been shown to cause ____?' and you had to have read that specific publication from 2015 to know the answer. Or they'll pull from image captions in the CRC textbook, or graphs, etc. And 2/3 publications can be case reports which helps as well.

We've discussed this before at some point, but I'll say again that residency is 'easier' in the sense that you have to have a mentor guide you and you'll have no problem accessing literature, but it's not some impossible task to do it the experiential route. A good number of my mentors did exactly this.

I don't think they're solely based on recent publications...there is also a slide examination portion, and i would think since there are a bunch of textbooks (some certainly older than 5 years) on the reading list some of the questions come from there as well.

Edit: I think I may have read what you were saying wrong - not that the entire exam is journal-based, but that the questions that are based on journal articles come from publications within the last 5 years. I think it does say somewhere in the exam information that they may pull from older publications though.

 

[WildZoo]

Probably a good thing, as it gives people a chance to do 3 higher quality pubs rather than ****ting out 5 lukewarm case reports.

I was trying to verify and everything I'm seeing still says 5. At least one has to be an original investigation. They also have to be in the field of zoological medicine "or other related fields of study" (not sure what that means haha).

 

[SkiOtter]

At least one has to be an original investigation. They also have to be in the field of zoological medicine "or other related fields of study" (not sure what that means haha).

Apparently your paper on underwater basket weaving does not qualify

 

[WildZoo]

Apparently your paper on underwater basket weaving does not qualify

It's ok, I was only third author anyway

 

[JaynaAli]

I thought that even though the zoo boards said only one had to be an original investigation, basically they all unofficially were expected to be original? I personally know a resident who was told that one of their five reports did not contribute enough to science (it was a case report) and couldn't count towards the required number to sit boards. Luckily that person had several other pubs in progress and got it sorted out before boards time, but it just stuck with me that even seemingly relevant publications could be deemed unworthy by some panel.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

They bumped it down to 3 publications?? That's awesome, didn't realize that had happened.

Yes, I think next year is the first year it's effective? Or maybe now? Next year is the first year for the new exam too.

I don't think they're solely based on recent publications...there is also a slide examination portion, and i would think since there are a bunch of textbooks (some certainly older than 5 years) on the reading list some of the questions come from there as well.

There's a slide/video portion on day 2, but the slides are based on info in the readings (I've been told parasite ID and poisonous plant ID are popular for this section, especially parasites in aquatics). It says right in the link I posted what older textbooks/editions they pull from. I'm sure the disclaimer of it not being an exhaustive list is on there somewhere, but based on what I've been told by numerous zoo-boarded vets, it's a pretty good list.

I was trying to verify and everything I'm seeing still says 5. At least one has to be an original investigation. They also have to be in the field of zoological medicine "or other related fields of study" (not sure what that means haha).

Ask around with your zoo people. Also @WhtsThFrequency the publications have to be considered 'meaningful' and there's a whole document as to what that actually means, so you can't really publish something random just so you can meet the criteria afaik. @JaynaAli just beat me to it. 'Original investigation' means something experimental as opposed to another case report, but all publications have to be deemed "meaningful" by the exam people.