Exotics/Small animal speciality

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It says right in the link I posted what older textbooks/editions they pull from. I'm sure the disclaimer of it not being an exhaustive list is on there somewhere, but based on what I've been told by numerous zoo-boarded vets, it's a pretty good list.
Couldn't follow your link for some reason, but I think we're looking at the same list. Like I said in my edit I think I just read your statement wrong the first time. Wasn't doubting that the list is good, I thought you were saying the exam was only based on recent journal articles.
 
I thought that even though the zoo boards said only one had to be an original investigation, basically they all unofficially were expected to be original? I personally know a resident who was told that one of their five reports did not contribute enough to science (it was a case report) and couldn't count towards the required number to sit boards. Luckily that person had several other pubs in progress and got it sorted out before boards time, but it just stuck with me that even seemingly relevant publications could be deemed unworthy by some panel.
Yeah like pp said, there's a whole document
One of the vets I've talked to who isn't boarded and doesn't plan on becoming boarded in the near future mentioned that one of the reasons is that she simply doesn't have the time to work on that aspect of it. Works out for her since she already has a great job anyway!
 
Couldn't follow your link for some reason, but I think we're looking at the same list. Like I said in my edit I think I just read your statement wrong the first time. Wasn't doubting that the list is good, I thought you were saying the exam was only based on recent journal articles.
Whoops sorry, you must have made that edit as I was typing out my reply 😛

As for the publication requirement change, I couldn't find anything on the website either (although I could have sworn I read it somewhere? Maybe in a news post? I can't recall) but I was told by someone who just passed boards last year (because it was a kick in the pants, she struggled to meet the 5) and just chatted about it with one of our zoo med residents a few weeks ago. Maybe it's not in effect yet like I thought.
 
Whoops sorry, you must have made that edit as I was typing out my reply 😛

As for the publication requirement change, I couldn't find anything on the website either (although I could have sworn I read it somewhere? Maybe in a news post? I can't recall) but I was told by someone who just passed boards last year (because it was a kick in the pants, she struggled to meet the 5) and just chatted about it with one of our zoo med residents a few weeks ago. Maybe it's not in effect yet like I thought.
Probably haha

I honestly thought I had heard/read somewhere before that the requirement was changing, too, but I can't remember where. Sitting for boards is several (like...probably close to a decade) years down the road for me if I still want to go that direction after finishing my PhD, so not really something I'm worried about beyond general curiosity. I'm sure things will have changed again by the time I get there.
 
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Probably haha

I honestly thought I had heard/read somewhere before that the requirement was changing, too, but I can't remember where. Sitting for boards is several (like...probably close to a decade) years down the road for me if I still want to go that direction after finishing my PhD, so not really something I'm worried about beyond general curiosity. I'm sure things will have changed again by the time I get there.
Yeah agree. All I really want right now is a passing NAVLE score tbh
 
Yeah agree. All I really want right now is a passing NAVLE score tbh
I would like to survive this semester...

Which i guess means I should be studying for my cardio final, but trying to find random bits of information on the internet seemed more fun 😛
 
Path is about the same. To this day I don't know why my program took a chance on me, but thank goodness they did and I've done 'em proud as far as I can tell. Cardio, diagnostic imaging, and optho are pretty damn competitive too. Probably due to so few positions and the fact that specializing is optional for us in the first place (although becoming more and more common). Last figure I saw was something around 1/5 to 1/4 of graduates going to residency.
Im not sure what youre seeing where you're at, but the increased number of people entering residency doesn't suprise me based on what I've seen at my institution. We've had a good dozen or so lectures exposing us to the ideas of specializing just this semester through lunches and a class while as far as GP or other routes have been discussed significantly less. Plus they also tend to talk about higher salaries as a border specialist (despite lower pay during internship/residency-nit sure how the student loans work with all that but I'm sure they keep accumulating interest so not sure how much that is really off set in the end) as well as how in more and more places its basically malpractice to do anything major that could be referred to a specialist. So the combination of the higher salary tag line, the opportunity for doing cooler things in medicine per say, and the amount of suggestion for entering a specialty we get I foresee the number of grads entering residency to continue to stay the same or even rise.
 
Im not sure what youre seeing where you're at, but the increased number of people entering residency doesn't suprise me based on what I've seen at my institution. We've had a good dozen or so lectures exposing us to the ideas of specializing just this semester through lunches and a class while as far as GP or other routes have been discussed significantly less. Plus they also tend to talk about higher salaries as a border specialist (despite lower pay during internship/residency-nit sure how the student loans work with all that but I'm sure they keep accumulating interest so not sure how much that is really off set in the end) as well as how in more and more places its basically malpractice to do anything major that could be referred to a specialist. So the combination of the higher salary tag line, the opportunity for doing cooler things in medicine per say, and the amount of suggestion for entering a specialty we get I foresee the number of grads entering residency to continue to stay the same or even rise.
Interesting. I would agree with @kcoughli that we never received any form instruction re: the application process for advanced training (or the pros/cons associated with GP vs. specialization). We did have a careers class first year that exposed us to various options within the field- but these talks were informal, and mostly focused on the role/function of the practitioner versus the training route (although this was touched upon as well). Most of my graduating class entered GP. There was a hefty number (I believe around 30%) that chose the training route, but I have many colleagues who are happy with their choice at this stage to decide against it. GPs can do very well financially, depending on the market and demographic served by the practice. Many of my faculty in veterinary school actively praised GPs, arguing that it's one of the toughest jobs to do well in vet med, and often doesn't get the respect it deserves- particularly from folks in the ivory tower. Some didn't, of course, and were disappointed when high performing classmates decided against advanced training. I would caution you re: your opinions on salary. Yes, boarded specialists tend to earn more after training is concluded/boards secured, but there is lost income during the training years (as you mention), and salary has a lot to do with the environment in which you choose to work. Academic institutions (veterinary schools) have a difficult time recruiting/retaining faculty for a few reasons- 1) the salary is appreciably lower than what this individual could command in private practice, 2) some folks just don't want to teach students, 3) the expectations for research/institutional service depending on where you end up. Back in the day, veterinary schools were the bastion of top quality medicine. That's no longer the case. My veterinary school competed with other tertiary care facilities in the vicinity that had access to much of the technology the school could offer (i.e. advanced imaging, radiotherapy, etc.). My point is that you won't be 'banking it' as a faculty member in academia- even a boarded specialist. Remember as well that your actual role in direct patient care decreases as you move up the training ladder (unless, I'd argue, you're a surgeon). The likelihood of doing 'more cool things in medicine' (as you suggest) must necessarily focus on the brain work associated with vet med and not the practical skills. Perhaps in private practice tertiary care the boarded medicine folks do complete more direct patient care tasks (I actually don't know- never worked in one), but I'd hazard a guess that much of that practical work will be completed by the techs. Just some food for thought. I was surprised how many of my colleagues in vet school changed their mind about specializing in fourth year. Many of them became frustrated by the lack of traction with clients (i.e. on IM, we can save your dog, but it's gonna cost you $10K on the low end; or in neuro, well, we can help you figure out what's happening but the MRI will run you at least $3K), or were just flat out done with school. I myself would not be pushing folks to enter advanced training unless they really wanted to practice medicine in the specialty of choice. I entered vet school completely committed to my current field. If I had entered with a more general interest, I highly doubt that I would have pursued advanced training. The number of training positions can fluctuate from year to year, but not by very much (if you're interested, you can track these changes via VIRMP- the lion's share of the data is captured there). If more folks decide to go the training route, the competition for those limited positions will only increase further. As someone who survived a very rough application cycle, I don't wish the process on any of my colleagues. My personal experience with it was awful.

Not my goal to deter you from advanced training, just a few things that came to mind while I was reading your post. Best of success in school, and the choice you make re: practice environment moving forward. Regarding loans, I am officially registered as a 'student' at my residency institution. As such, I qualify for loan deferment for the duration of my training program. You are correct, however, in mentioning that these loans accrue interest throughout. You certainly have the option to pay on them as you see fit throughout training (at least here).
 
Im not sure what youre seeing where you're at, but the increased number of people entering residency doesn't suprise me based on what I've seen at my institution. We've had a good dozen or so lectures exposing us to the ideas of specializing just this semester through lunches and a class while as far as GP or other routes have been discussed significantly less. Plus they also tend to talk about higher salaries as a border specialist (despite lower pay during internship/residency-nit sure how the student loans work with all that but I'm sure they keep accumulating interest so not sure how much that is really off set in the end) as well as how in more and more places its basically malpractice to do anything major that could be referred to a specialist. So the combination of the higher salary tag line, the opportunity for doing cooler things in medicine per say, and the amount of suggestion for entering a specialty we get I foresee the number of grads entering residency to continue to stay the same or even rise.
Interesting. We definitely don't get that much exposure to the ins and outs of specialty training, especially in a classroom setting. Maybe some career path discussions at lunch meetings for particular specialties, and we had one optional info session on internships. But actually we learn much more about GP, and often in class they focus on what we would do in GP when talking about treatments and such.

Seems kind of extreme to talk about not referring being malpractice. If the owner can't pay for a specialist, you are comfortable performing the procedure and have the tools to do so, and you communicate to them that you don't have specialist training...I don't see how that is malpractice at all.

That's not to say I'm surprised at increasing numbers of people deciding to specialize. I think it's just due to veterinary medicine itself becoming more and more advanced, and that is the side of it that we get experience with in school.

The whole earning potential thing depends on your specialty, and like Lab Vet said, whether you end up in academia or private practice. A private practice cardiologist is likely going to make up for the years of lower earnings. A zoo vet...nah 😉
 
Interesting. I would agree with @kcoughli that we never received any form instruction re: the application process for advanced training (or the pros/cons associated with GP vs. specialization). We did have a careers class first year that exposed us to various options within the field- but these talks were informal, and mostly focused on the role/function of the practitioner versus the training route (although this was touched upon as well). Most of my graduating class entered GP. There was a hefty number (I believe around 30%) that chose the training route, but I have many colleagues who are happy with their choice at this stage to decide against it. GPs can do very well financially, depending on the market and demographic served by the practice. Many of my faculty in veterinary school actively praised GPs, arguing that it's one of the toughest jobs to do well in vet med, and often doesn't get the respect it deserves- particularly from folks in the ivory tower. Some didn't, of course, and were disappointed when high performing classmates decided against advanced training. I would caution you re: your opinions on salary. Yes, boarded specialists tend to earn more after training is concluded/boards secured, but there is lost income during the training years (as you mention), and salary has a lot to do with the environment in which you choose to work. Academic institutions (veterinary schools) have a difficult time recruiting/retaining faculty for a few reasons- 1) the salary is appreciably lower than what this individual could command in private practice, 2) some folks just don't want to teach students, 3) the expectations for research/institutional service depending on where you end up. Back in the day, veterinary schools were the bastion of top quality medicine. That's no longer the case. My veterinary school competed with other tertiary care facilities in the vicinity that had access to much of the technology the school could offer (i.e. advanced imaging, radiotherapy, etc.). My point is that you won't be 'banking it' as a faculty member in academia- even a boarded specialist. Remember as well that your actual role in direct patient care decreases as you move up the training ladder (unless, I'd argue, you're a surgeon). The likelihood of doing 'more cool things in medicine' (as you suggest) must necessarily focus on the brain work associated with vet med and not the practical skills. Perhaps in private practice tertiary care the boarded medicine folks do complete more direct patient care tasks (I actually don't know- never worked in one), but I'd hazard a guess that much of that practical work will be completed by the techs. Just some food for thought. I was surprised how many of my colleagues in vet school changed their mind about specializing in fourth year. Many of them became frustrated by the lack of traction with clients (i.e. on IM, we can save your dog, but it's gonna cost you $10K on the low end; or in neuro, well, we can help you figure out what's happening but the MRI will run you at least $3K), or were just flat out done with school. I myself would not be pushing folks to enter advanced training unless they really wanted to practice medicine in the specialty of choice. I entered vet school completely committed to my current field. If I had entered with a more general interest, I highly doubt that I would have pursued advanced training. The number of training positions can fluctuate from year to year, but not by very much (if you're interested, you can track these changes via VIRMP- the lion's share of the data is captured there). If more folks decide to go the training route, the competition for those limited positions will only increase further. As someone who survived a very rough application cycle, I don't wish the process on any of my colleagues. My personal experience with it was awful.

Not my goal to deter you from advanced training, just a few things that came to mind while I was reading your post. Best of success in school, and the choice you make re: practice environment moving forward. Regarding loans, I am officially registered as a 'student' at my residency institution. As such, I qualify for loan deferment for the duration of my training program. You are correct, however, in mentioning that these loans accrue interest throughout. You certainly have the option to pay on them as you see fit throughout training (at least here).
It's more so they've brought in specialists for a class a few times and it seems a good number in my class are interested and they've asked every question under the sun so we've talked about the match, rotating internships, publications etc. I think in part for people who are interested they can start networking now and get with some research if interested. As for the making more as a specialist I know for sure it depends on the speciality and private vs academic. I should've been more clear with that. As an example we had one internal telemed specialist come in and tell us how she paid off her like 250k student loan in less than 10 years plus doing all these other things. FWIW I think she is an exception to the norm. By no means is our school pushing anyone to specialize but it does seem we get more exposure to the process sooner than what seems like many schools. Overall our curriculum is very GP focused it's just this one class that has many other components to it but it's kind of a class that they threw all the extra random things into and that's where specialist stuff fell.

I think if you want to specialize go for it and we have specialists for a reason and most of them are amazing people. Personally though I have no desire to become a specialist. I don't enjoy research and I have no desire to do more schooling after I'm done. GP all the way.
Interesting. We definitely don't get that much exposure to the ins and outs of specialty training, especially in a classroom setting. Maybe some career path discussions at lunch meetings for particular specialties, and we had one optional info session on internships. But actually we learn much more about GP, and often in class they focus on what we would do in GP when talking about treatments and such.

Seems kind of extreme to talk about not referring being malpractice. If the owner can't pay for a specialist, you are comfortable performing the procedure and have the tools to do so, and you communicate to them that you don't have specialist training...I don't see how that is malpractice at all.

That's not to say I'm surprised at increasing numbers of people deciding to specialize. I think it's just due to veterinary medicine itself becoming more and more advanced, and that is the side of it that we get experience with in school.

The whole earning potential thing depends on your specialty, and like Lab Vet said, whether you end up in academia or private practice. A private practice cardiologist is likely going to make up for the years of lower earnings. A zoo vet...nah 😉
Sorry. I should've clarified better. Dont get me wrong about the malpractice it was definitely more of if you have someone and they want to pay for it etc which seems more common in bigger cities but as far as in the context of becoming a GP in a big city means less surgery if that's something one desires may drive them to do a specialty over being a GP. Obviously that's not always the case but I can see how it may influence some people.
 
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