Expected Income For Class of 22

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If you have 5-600k of loans to payback and considering how much schooling we went through I think it’s pretty in-touch 😀

Agree. I have been asked many times what is an acceptable amount of loans to make dentistry financially worth it. I think paying $250-300k to become a dentist would not be bad choice. Any more than that, definitely not worth it.

This is a great advice for new grad dentists.

You should treat this $180k/year income as if it was only a $30-40k/year income and continue to live like a poor student for the next few years if you want to buy a house and set up your own practice soon. If you are able to save $3-4k every month (after paying all the living expenses and student loan bills), it will still take you 1.5-2 years to save $100k, which is not even enough for the required 20% down payment on a house. It costs close to $1 million to own a simple, 1200 sf, 3 bed 2 bath home here in Orange County, CA.

Most of my dentist and doctor friends are doing very well. But I do know a few of them who still have a lot of debts and they are at my age (50). That’s because when they were younger, they thought they made a lot of money and went out buying a lot of things…didn’t save…didn’t invest. You can’t retire with just a house that you paid off and have nothing else. Even with my house fully paid off, I still have to pay close to $3k a month (in property tax, insurance, utility bills, and maintenance)…and I have to continue to pay for all these until I am too old to live in it and have to move into a nursing home. This $3k/month payment may not be a lot to you right now because you are still working. But $3k will be a huge amount to you when you retire and have zero income.

RICH PEOPLE STAY RICH BY LIVING LIKE THEY’RE BROKE. BROKE PEOPLE STAY BROKE BY LIVING LIKE THEY’RE RICH.

As a new grad dentist right now I am able to save $3-4k/month (after paying all living expenses and student loans, my take home after taxes is a bit over $8k/month). @charlestweed, what would you suggest I do with this saved money? Should I put it towards a buying a house, even though I am not married and don't plan to have kids anytime soon? A 3 bed 2 bath house where I live costs $500k.

 

[LFA20]

Agree. I have been asked many times what is an acceptable amount of loans to make dentistry financially worth it. I think paying $250-300k to become a dentist would not be bad choice. Any more than that, definitely not worth it.


As a new grad dentist right now I am able to save $3-4k/month (after paying all living expenses and student loans, my take home after taxes is a bit over $8k/month). @charlestweed, what would you suggest I do with this saved money? Should I put it towards a buying a house, even though I am not married and don't plan to have kids anytime soon? A 3 bed 2 bath house where I live costs $500k.

I’d invest that money. Market is at the bottom now

 

[charlestweed]

As a new grad dentist right now I am able to save $3-4k/month (after paying all living expenses and student loans, my take home after taxes is a bit over $8k/month). @charlestweed, what would you suggest I do with this saved money? Should I put it towards a buying a house, even though I am not married and don't plan to have kids anytime soon? A 3 bed 2 bath house where I live costs $500k.

IMO, putting your money toward buying a house is better than letting it sit in the bank and collecting a few bucks in interest every month. Can’t go wrong with real estate. It’s the safe way to fight against the inflation. That's why most of my dentist and doctor friends have more than one house. The home prices may decline for a brief period of time, during a recession or housing market crash, but the prices will always go up in the end. I bought a house right before the 2008 housing bubble. At one point during the housing bubble period, this house was worth $300k less than what I owed on it. A lot of people in my neighborhood lost their houses. I didn’t lose any sleep over this because of my good and stable dentist’s income. Whatever the value of the bank appraised for this house, it was just on paper....I didn’t care…..I enjoyed living in it. Last December, I sold it (because I wanted to downgrade to a smaller house so I pay less in property tax) $600k above the original purchased price.

Since you are still single, you can rent out one of the rooms to a roommate if you don’t mind losing some privacy. This extra passive income should help you save even more every month. If you are still not ready to set up your own practice in a couple of years, you can use your saved money to buy more rental properties and let the tenants pay the mortgages for you. Can't work forever. Gotta have a passive income when you retire.

 

[Cold Front]

A 3 bed 2 bath house where I live costs $500k.

30 yr Mortgage rates are 5.5% now with great credit. With property taxes, home insurance, etc. your monthly payments could be $3-3.5k a month before utilities. If rates continue to go up… maybe close to $4k a month. Life is a moving target. By the time you plan and decide to pull the trigger on something, the numbers could go up. That’s assuming if you can even find a $500k home. In my city, that price range sells in 2-3 days.

 

[Cold Front]

I think paying $250-300k to become a dentist would not be bad choice. Any more than that, definitely not worth it.

That’s rare these days. That’s about $45k-50k/yr including cost of living, but before interest. Cost of living is $20-25k a year for medium size city, more for bigger cities. Very hard to find a d school charging $20-25k/yr with all the fees. I can’t even think of one. [emoji848]

Is there actually a school that charges less than $300k with cost of living to become a dentist?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Market is at the bottom now

We just had negative GDP growth in the first quarter and stagflation is getting further entrenched each passing day. The Fed’s 0.5% rate hike today is going to do nothing to get things back to reality. We’ll likely be in a significant recession by the end of the year. I’m betting the average 30 year mortgage rate is around 8% by August or thereabouts. What do you think that will do to the housing sector? We’ll have gone from mid 3’s to around 8 in less than a year. Real wages are declining every month in the face of record inflation and the common folk are really feeling it.

This ship is going down.

Big Hoss

 

[Cold Front]

View attachment 354307

We just had negative GDP growth in the first quarter and stagflation is getting further entrenched each passing day. The Fed’s 0.5% rate hike today is going to do nothing to get things back to reality. We’ll likely be in a significant recession by the end of the year. I’m betting the average 30 year mortgage rate is around 8% by August or thereabouts. What do you think that will do to the housing sector? We’ll have gone from mid 3’s to around 8 in less than a year. Real wages are declining every month in the face of record inflation and the common folk are really feeling it.

This ship is going down.

Big Hoss

Man… you are tougher on the economic outlook than I am. lol

IMO, the Feds pivoted today. Their last meeting in March, they came out of the gates blasting with aggressive interest rate hikes dot plots. Today, their tone changed to a more dovish one. Why? Well, they realized that the last inflation data somewhat painted a peak inflation. Keep in mind, it was just 1 report, the next report comes out next week and could and will probably surprise everyone with a high number. They also realized the 5.5% mortgage rate we’ve seen in Q1 is slowing down the housing market (70% drop in mortgage applications compared to a year ago) and by extension the economy down. But as you said, they realized GDP contraction from Q1 and they didn’t want to slam the breaks as hard as they indicated at their March meeting. They also said today that 0.75% rate hike is off the table in June as markets priced in. In a nutshell, they want to calibrate their rate decisions as more data comes in on the second half of the year. But they will definitely raise rates 0.5% at each of their 2 summer meetings, then pull back to 0.25% for September and maybe 1 more before the end of the year. I personally don’t think they will stop at 2% neutral rate, because they need to keep up with their credibility if inflation doesn’t come down below 5% over the next 6 months - which I don’t think will happen with the Ukraine war and China’s largest and most important 2 cities still in full lock down or some sort. Also, transporting goods with low diesel inventory at refining plants will lead to more inflation in the coming months.

Bottom line, I’m on the camp of a recession coming in the next 12-18 months, if not sooner. Remember what happened just before the 2008 recession? Oil prices were at record levels, freight was down, home prices were getting out control, Feds kept raising rates, etc etc. Well guess what, all of those things are happening again now. The Feds have good tools to control the financial conditions, and by extension the economic conditions. But they can’t control everything on the supply side… like the global supply chain, global energy markets, labor participation (which hasn’t recovered to pre-pandemic levels), etc. They will overshoot with these rate hikes, and recession is definitely in their cards if they over tighten a very vulnerable economy.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Man… you are tougher on the economic outlook than I am. lol

He who panics first, panics best.

Big Hoss

 

[Cold Front]

He who panics first, panics best.

View attachment 354321

Big Hoss

Definitely today’s stock market sentiment.

 

[P7898]

This is a great advice for new grad dentists.

You should treat this $180k/year income as if it was only a $30-40k/year income and continue to live like a poor student for the next few years if you want to buy a house and set up your own practice soon. If you are able to save $3-4k every month (after paying all the living expenses and student loan bills), it will still take you 1.5-2 years to save $100k, which is not even enough for the required 20% down payment on a house. It costs close to $1 million to own a simple, 1200 sf, 3 bed 2 bath home here in Orange County, CA.

Most of my dentist and doctor friends are doing very well. But I do know a few of them who still have a lot of debts and they are at my age (50). That’s because when they were younger, they thought they made a lot of money and went out buying a lot of things…didn’t save…didn’t invest. You can’t retire with just a house that you paid off and have nothing else. Even with my house fully paid off, I still have to pay close to $3k a month (in property tax, insurance, utility bills, and maintenance)…and I have to continue to pay for all these until I am too old to live in it and have to move into a nursing home. This $3k/month payment may not be a lot to you right now because you are still working. But $3k will be a huge amount to you when you retire and have zero income.

RICH PEOPLE STAY RICH BY LIVING LIKE THEY’RE BROKE. BROKE PEOPLE STAY BROKE BY LIVING LIKE THEY’RE RICH.

Very wise and filled richly with truth in the last statement.

 

[2TH MVR]

Very wise and filled richly with truth in the last statement.

Well. It's easy to act poor when your rich. You have options.

 

[P7898]

Well. It's easy to act poor when your rich. You have options.

It is very hard for people to be frugal with money after they are a Dr. It is delay gratification times 100. But they have no idea if they still lead a life like a student for 5-10 years after dental school, they can start to gradually become "not as frugal". And then hence they become the older dentists that they see when they shadow "rolling in dough". Little do they know in order to be well off financially in your 50s and have a great retirement plan; it comes with sacrifices that they do not see.

 

[charlestweed]

It is very hard for people to be frugal with money after they are a Dr. It is delay gratification times 100. But they have no idea if they still lead a life like a student for 5-10 years after dental school, they can start to gradually become "not as frugal". And then hence they become the older dentists that they see when they shadow "rolling in dough". Little do they know in order to be well off financially in your 50s and have a great retirement plan; it comes with sacrifices that they do not see.

The 2008 recession/housing bubble was a wake-up for me. Before this, I spent money like a maniac….totally opposite of what my hero, Dave Ramsey, has advised his listeners. Within 5 years, I moved 3 times because I wasn’t satisfied with the sizes of the 2 previous houses and wanted a bigger one. Luckily, the only thing that I did right was paying off the student loans within 5 years. I became more careful with the money when I realized that my house was worth less than what I owed on it….when I witnessed so many of my neighbors losing their houses. My wife was with me on this as well. She asked me to buy her a cheaper car. I got her an Acura MDX (but I still leased German cars for myself….couldn’t resist, it’s the guy thing🙂) and she had driven it for 10 years. Now that we are 100% debt-free, she gets to drive a nice car (currently, the X7) again.

We have only been debt-free for a year. There is still a long way to go before I can retire comfortably. I need to continue to work full time for at least 5 more years to make sure that I save enough for retirement. There’s no reason for me to slow down now when everything is still in my favor: I am in OK health shape, the ortho profession is still fine now, my patients and referral GPs still like me, and the economy is doing ok right now. The problem is I don’t know how much will be enough and how long I will live. It’s always better to over-estimate the expenses. If I have a surplus, my children and grand children will benefit from it.

 

[cluelessdr]

The 2008 recession/housing bubble was a wake-up for me. Before this, I spent money like a maniac….totally opposite of what my hero, Dave Ramsey, has advised his listeners. Within 5 years, I moved 3 times because I wasn’t satisfied with the sizes of the 2 previous houses and wanted a bigger one. Luckily, the only thing that I did right was paying off the student loans within 5 years. I became more careful with the money when I realized that my house was worth less than what I owed on it….when I witnessed so many of my neighbors losing their houses. My wife was with me on this as well. She asked me to buy her a cheaper car. I got her an Acura MDX (but I still leased German cars for myself….couldn’t resist, it’s the guy thing🙂) and she had driven it for 10 years. Now that we are 100% debt-free, she gets to drive a nice car (currently, the X7) again.

We have only been debt-free for a year. There is still a long way to go before I can retire comfortably. I need to continue to work full time for at least 5 more years to make sure that I save enough for retirement. There’s no reason for me to slow down now when everything is still in my favor: I am in OK health shape, the ortho profession is still fine now, my patients and referral GPs still like me, and the economy is doing ok right now. The problem is I don’t know how much will be enough and how long I will live. It’s always better to over-estimate the expenses. If I have a surplus, my children and grand children will benefit from it.

you are an orthodontist?

 

[schmoob]

How much you earn is of course dependent on where you live, reimbursement rates, and cost of living. But coming out of school you won’t earn as much as a dentist say 5 years out because of procedures and speed.

I worked at a DSO with a new grad. Very hard worker, just inexperienced. Single canal endo was tough for them, and by the time they finished obturating, buildup, prep, final impression, hours had gone by. I made significantly more money than him because DSOs love to show how much every doctor makes. But with time, CE, and a little experience I’m sure this doc will do very well for himself financially. It takes time.

 

[2TH MVR]

RICH PEOPLE STAY RICH BY LIVING LIKE THEY’RE BROKE. BROKE PEOPLE STAY BROKE BY LIVING LIKE THEY’RE RICH.

If all rich people hoard their money. Does that mean that the concept of trickle down economics does not work?

 

[charlestweed]

If all rich people hoard their money. Does that mean that the concept of trickle down economics does not work?

Trickle down economics does work. I am a firm believer of it. Not all millionaires have equal amount of wealth. I am not talking the ultra rich millionaires....the CEOs of big corporations....the ones that employ dentists like you and me. I am talking about the low level millionaires.....the ones who have the net worth between $1-10 millions. The type of people that Dave Ramsey talks about on this video.

 

[Cold Front]

How much you earn is of course dependent on where you live, reimbursement rates, and cost of living. But coming out of school you won’t earn as much as a dentist say 5 years out because of procedures and speed.

I worked at a DSO with a new grad. Very hard worker, just inexperienced. Single canal endo was tough for them, and by the time they finished obturating, buildup, prep, final impression, hours had gone by. I made significantly more money than him because DSOs love to show how much every doctor makes. But with time, CE, and a little experience I’m sure this doc will do very well for himself financially. It takes time.

Average new grad 5 years ago took more home their first year than a new grad today. Average new grad today will take more home on their first year than new grad 5 years from now.

Overall, higher student loans, high cost of living/inflation, etc is the driving force of bringing new grad income down every year. The success mountain in the dental world keeps getting higher to climb every year.

As an analogy- What if your route to work kept going up 2 mins every day for a month? You would be a full hour late next month to go to work. Except the minutes in this example is equivalent to 1 year in the dental world, in terms of debt to income ratio as a student who enters dental school and joins the workforce. The debt can easily go up $50-100k every year (interest + COL) to start the journey on the average dental school. In other words, those who enter dental school this year could save $50-100k than those who enter dental school next year. Each year keeps getting more expensive with less purchasing power over time as a new grad.

 

[2TH MVR]

Average new grad 5 years ago took more home their first year than a new grad today. Average new grad today will take more home on their first year than new grad 5 years from now.

Overall, higher student loans, high cost of living/inflation, etc is the driving force of bringing new grad income down every year. The success mountain in the dental world keeps getting higher to climb every year.

As an analogy- What if your route to work kept going up 2 mins every day for a month? You would be a full hour late next month to go to work. Except the minutes in this example is equivalent to 1 year in the dental world, in terms of debt to income ratio as a student who enters dental school and joins the workforce. The debt can easily go up $50-100k every year (interest + COL) to start the journey on the average dental school. In other words, those who enter dental school this year could save $50-100k than those who enter dental school next year. Each year keeps getting more expensive with less purchasing power over time as a new grad.

Completely agree on all your points.

I think the new grads are becoming numb to this whole situation. The "average" relative take home income after paying off excessive SL debt is going down, but all of these new grads are starting at zero income and any positive movement from there seems adequate and possibly "normal".

In other words. There is a new normal for new dentists. They seem to be accepting of the fact that they start out with a large negative net worth and accept the fact that they will be paying off a debt for many years. In the meantime. They are dentists (doctors) making low 6 figures with an abundance of Corp jobs.

To us older dentists ... this seems crazy. But to the new gen dentists. This is their situation and they don't know anything different. The younger gen have all listened to the OLD guys talking about how good the GOOD OLE DAYS were. I'm older and I still remember the OLDER dentists telling me the same thing lol.

 

[charlestweed]

Average new grad 5 years ago took more home their first year than a new grad today. Average new grad today will take more home on their first year than new grad 5 years from now.

Overall, higher student loans, high cost of living/inflation, etc is the driving force of bringing new grad income down every year. The success mountain in the dental world keeps getting higher to climb every year.

As an analogy- What if your route to work kept going up 2 mins every day for a month? You would be a full hour late next month to go to work. Except the minutes in this example is equivalent to 1 year in the dental world, in terms of debt to income ratio as a student who enters dental school and joins the workforce. The debt can easily go up $50-100k every year (interest + COL) to start the journey on the average dental school. In other words, those who enter dental school this year could save $50-100k than those who enter dental school next year. Each year keeps getting more expensive with less purchasing power over time as a new grad.

And if you practice in CA, where there are many times more dentists than in other states, it will set you back even further.... maybe another 5 years? I guess that’s why it didn’t take you and Tanman very long to catch up with me and then went past me. You both graduated many years after me. You are both practicing outside of CA. You are both many times more successful than I am now.

I agree with everything that you said here. There is no argument that the new grads will make less than older grads. I got the same warning from my late uncle, who was a foreign trained physician, when I applied for dental school 20+ years ago. When I came to obtain a LOR from him for my dental school application, he showed me his shrunken paycheck that he got from one of the health insurance companies. But he still advised his children (my first cousins) and me to pursue a career in healthcare because there weren’t many better alternative options out there. His two sons are both physicians and his daughter is a pharmacist.

Everything you said is true but none of us can do anything about it. We can’t lower the tuitions. We can neither stop nor slow down the inflation. We, older generation, have ruined it for our kids with excessive borrowing, money printing, and out-of-control spending. That’s why the millennials hate us so much and I don’t blame them. To make up for our generation’s mistakes, I work hard now to save for my kids so they’ll have more breathing room to thrive in the future.

No one can control the macro-economics. The only thing that is within one’s control is “WORKING HARD.” If you are not smart, at least work hard to make up for it. If you expect the recession to happen in 10-12 months, then stop all the nonsense spending and start saving now. Live every day of your life like we are in a recession.

 

[Cold Front]

Completely agree on all your points.

I think the new grads are becoming numb to this whole situation. The "average" relative take home income after paying off excessive SL debt is going down, but all of these new grads are starting at zero income and any positive movement from there seems adequate and possibly "normal".

In other words. There is a new normal for new dentists. They seem to be accepting of the fact that they start out with a large negative net worth and accept the fact that they will be paying off a debt for many years. In the meantime. They are dentists (doctors) making low 6 figures with an abundance of Corp jobs.

To us older dentists ... this seems crazy. But to the new gen dentists. This is their situation and they don't know anything different. The younger gen have all listened to the OLD guys talking about how good the GOOD OLE DAYS were. I'm older and I still remember the OLDER dentists telling me the same thing lol.

Exactly. One can have good income but very negative net worth. Many dentists could delay retirement due to big debt still unpaid in the future. The pre-dents are not thinking that far down the road, but it’s a path full of uncertainties for them.

If the legendary Charles who had much lower student debt, very hard worker and established dentist paid off all his debt at age 50, when will an average 20 yr old pre-dent applying to 600k+ schools today pay all their personal debt? I wager in their 60’s, some maybe in their 70’s if the debt keeps rising at a high rate in the coming years - which I don’t see any reason of it not.

 

[charlestweed]

If the legendary Charles who had much lower student debt, very hard worker and established dentist paid off all his debt at age 50, when will an average 20 yr old pre-dent applying to 600k+ schools today pay all their personal debt? I wager in their 60’s, some maybe in their 70’s if the debt keeps rising at a high rate in the coming years - which I don’t see any reason of it not.

I could have been debt free a lot sooner if I didn’t buy rental properties, if I didn’t lease nice cars, and if I didn’t spent money like a maniac during the first 6-7 years after graduation. I didn’t know who Dave Ramsey was. I wished I knew about him and his teaching sooner.

 

[Cold Front]

I didn’t know who Dave Ramsey was. I wished I knew about him and his teaching sooner.

There was Suze Orman. One of most recognizable financial gurus in 1990-2010 period. She was always on TV and wrote a lot of books. But anyways… you just had epiphany at some point and took your personal finances more seriously. Back then, no threads on SDN on how expensive dental school was. Everything was relatively cheap for a dentist and relatively easier to do. No iPhones/smart phones back then when you graduated. We all attribute the big things we did and learnt in life financially to recent past; the age of Youtube, Reddit, and ofcourse social media. The internet has shot humanity 100+ years forward. If there was no internet, we would be discussing the latest releases at BlockBuster video stores, send post cards when we go on vacations and still accepting Yellow Pages at our front door. lol

Anyways, Dave Ramsey is doing exactly what Suze Orman did.

 

[charlestweed]

There was Suze Orman. One of most recognizable financial gurus in 1990-2010 period. She was always on TV and wrote a lot of books. But anyways… you just had epiphany at some point and took your personal finances more seriously. Back then, no threads on SDN on how expensive dental school was. Everything was relatively cheap for a dentist and relatively easier to do. No iPhones/smart phones back then when you graduated. We all attribute the big things we did and learnt in life financially to recent past; the age of Youtube, Reddit, and ofcourse social media. The internet has shot humanity 100+ years forward. If there was no internet, we would be discussing the latest releases at BlockBuster video stores, send post cards when we go on vacations and still accepting Yellow Pages at our front door. lol

Anyways, Dave Ramsey is doing exactly what Suze Orman did.

I heard about Suze Orman and Dave a long time ago but I didn’t really pay attention to what they taught. I was too busy with schools and then later with work. By the time I started listening to Dave Ramsey (about 6-7 years ago), I was already in firm control of my finance.

My and my wife’s combined income was in the low to mid $300k right after graduation and I thought that was a lot of money (despite having a combined student loan debt of $450k) and I deserved to live like a king. Had I known Dave Ramsey at that time and realized that I was a broke orthodontist, I wouldn’t have spent my hard earned money the way I did. I could have become debt free a lot sooner.

My sister is a general dentist and her husband is a family practice MD. I didn’t know they were rich because they drove a Toyota Sierra van and an entry level Lexus ES300. They had lived with our parents for 3 years. All of their 3 kids went to k-12 public schools. Their first house was only $450k (just a simple average 3 bed 2 bath 2 car garage house)…and then they upgraded to an $800k house. I came to realize that they are a very rich couple, when I found out that they paid off all their 3 rental properties + their $1.02 million medical/dental office building + their $800k house. My sister was only in her mid 40s when she achieved this. I didn’t become debt free until I was 49…despite making a lot more than my sister.

 

[2TH MVR]

Success in life is not only about money at the end. Life is also about how you choose to live life in the present. Last time I checked .... we all have ONE shot here on Earth. There are no guarantees in life. Father time with it's inevitable health issues will affect us all. Some sooner than later.

Example. I knew this general dentist who worked all the time. He worked every day till he was around 68. He was very frugal and was worth millions. I recall that he did not have alot of hobbies except for WORK. He finally decided to retire at 69 and sold his practice . He told me that he had a long bucket list of things he missed out on when he was younger. He was eager to start a new life. To enjoy the fruits of his labor. 6 months later. He died of Lou Gehrig's disease. True story.

Now. Of course. There is a fine line here. Yes. When you are younger .... you need to make financial decisions wisely. Wise financial decisions early on will give you more options later. I'm not denying that. Secure a proper future financial plan. But you have to live life also.

I've spent alot of money on depreciating assets. But those assets (boats, expensive cars, vacations, boob job for the wife 😉 , etc. etc.) are part of my invaluable life experiences that I spent with my family. I experienced my "bucket list" items when I was younger and physically fit to enjoy those experiences.

One of my many memories was a trip with my oldest daughter. I belonged to an Audi R8 car club. We decided to take a road trip up north of Arizona. There had to be 8-10 of us in our R8s. This was many years ago. My daughter and I bring up this memory many times. It was a priceless moment in our lives.

Below is a picture that was taken while we were moving. The photographer (another member who came along to take pictures) blurred out the surroundings. Daughter in passenger seat. Me driving a 525 horsepower naturally aspirated V10.

 

[schmoob]

Success in life is not only about money at the end. Life is also about how you choose to live life in the present. Last time I checked .... we all have ONE shot here on Earth. There are no guarantees in life. Father time with it's inevitable health issues will affect us all. Some sooner than later.

Example. I knew this general dentist who worked all the time. He worked every day till he was around 68. He was very frugal and was worth millions. I recall that he did not have alot of hobbies except for WORK. He finally decided to retire at 69 and sold his practice . He told me that he had a long bucket list of things he missed out on when he was younger. He was eager to start a new life. To enjoy the fruits of his labor. 6 months later. He died of Lou Gehrig's disease. True story.

Now. Of course. There is a fine line here. Yes. When you are younger .... you need to make financial decisions wisely. Wise financial decisions early on will give you more options later. I'm not denying that. Secure a proper future financial plan. But you have to live life also.

I've spent alot of money on depreciating assets. But those assets (boats, expensive cars, vacations, boob job for the wife 😉 , etc. etc.) are part of my invaluable life experiences that I spent with my family. I experienced my "bucket list" items when I was younger and physically fit to enjoy those experiences.

One of my many memories was a trip with my oldest daughter. I belonged to an Audi R8 car club. We decided to take a road trip up north of Arizona. There had to be 8-10 of us in our R8s. This was many years ago. My daughter and I bring up this memory many times. It was a priceless moment in our lives.

Below is a picture that was taken while we were moving. The photographer (another member who came along to take pictures) blurred out the surroundings. Daughter in passenger seat. Me driving a 525 horsepower naturally aspirated V10.



View attachment 354574

This is what it’s all about. This is why we work so hard in school, in practice, etc. what good is it to make millions of you don’t spend millions and enjoy yourself. Money comes and goes, but time is something you can never get back. Pay your bills first, then enjoy the fruits of your hard work. Who cares if you’re a millionaire when you die? You can’t take it with you. There is nothing wrong with enjoying the money you make as long as you pay your bills first.

 

[Cold Front]

Success in life is not only about money at the end. Life is also about how you choose to live life in the present. Last time I checked .... we all have ONE shot here on Earth. There are no guarantees in life. Father time with it's inevitable health issues will affect us all. Some sooner than later.

Example. I knew this general dentist who worked all the time. He worked every day till he was around 68. He was very frugal and was worth millions. I recall that he did not have alot of hobbies except for WORK. He finally decided to retire at 69 and sold his practice . He told me that he had a long bucket list of things he missed out on when he was younger. He was eager to start a new life. To enjoy the fruits of his labor. 6 months later. He died of Lou Gehrig's disease. True story.

Now. Of course. There is a fine line here. Yes. When you are younger .... you need to make financial decisions wisely. Wise financial decisions early on will give you more options later. I'm not denying that. Secure a proper future financial plan. But you have to live life also.

I've spent alot of money on depreciating assets. But those assets (boats, expensive cars, vacations, boob job for the wife 😉 , etc. etc.) are part of my invaluable life experiences that I spent with my family. I experienced my "bucket list" items when I was younger and physically fit to enjoy those experiences.

One of my many memories was a trip with my oldest daughter. I belonged to an Audi R8 car club. We decided to take a road trip up north of Arizona. There had to be 8-10 of us in our R8s. This was many years ago. My daughter and I bring up this memory many times. It was a priceless moment in our lives.

Below is a picture that was taken while we were moving. The photographer (another member who came along to take pictures) blurred out the surroundings. Daughter in passenger seat. Me driving a 525 horsepower naturally aspirated V10.



View attachment 354574

I agree with you on all of the above.

There is no set blue print on how to have a happy and quality life. It’s all relative. Some are very happy having kids and enjoying life through family time. Others enjoy doing the opposite. What matters is that we pursue happy life through our interests and how we engage in those interest during life. I have seen very happy life while I was single. I have seen happy life as a married person. I could see happy life as a parent. It’s how I approached those stages in life that made me happy. Not because society dictates if I should feel happy or not. We can’t walk in other people’s paths in life, and Vice-versa. Yes, financial success gives people a lot of options, but how you use the money can make you happy, but not money itself. Bottom line, and for me personally, health and loved ones comes first in life - so that’s my true happiness, and I hope it’s the same for most people. Without good health you would be limited in life. Without loved ones, life would lack an emotional relationship (including pets).

 

[charlestweed]

Success in life is not only about money at the end. Life is also about how you choose to live life in the present. Last time I checked .... we all have ONE shot here on Earth. There are no guarantees in life. Father time with it's inevitable health issues will affect us all. Some sooner than later.

Example. I knew this general dentist who worked all the time. He worked every day till he was around 68. He was very frugal and was worth millions. I recall that he did not have alot of hobbies except for WORK. He finally decided to retire at 69 and sold his practice . He told me that he had a long bucket list of things he missed out on when he was younger. He was eager to start a new life. To enjoy the fruits of his labor. 6 months later. He died of Lou Gehrig's disease. True story.

Now. Of course. There is a fine line here. Yes. When you are younger .... you need to make financial decisions wisely. Wise financial decisions early on will give you more options later. I'm not denying that. Secure a proper future financial plan. But you have to live life also.

I've spent alot of money on depreciating assets. But those assets (boats, expensive cars, vacations, boob job for the wife 😉 , etc. etc.) are part of my invaluable life experiences that I spent with my family. I experienced my "bucket list" items when I was younger and physically fit to enjoy those experiences.

One of my many memories was a trip with my oldest daughter. I belonged to an Audi R8 car club. We decided to take a road trip up north of Arizona. There had to be 8-10 of us in our R8s. This was many years ago. My daughter and I bring up this memory many times. It was a priceless moment in our lives.

Below is a picture that was taken while we were moving. The photographer (another member who came along to take pictures) blurred out the surroundings. Daughter in passenger seat. Me driving a 525 horsepower naturally aspirated V10.



View attachment 354574

In order to enjoy life and do things that you like, you need money….a lot of it. In order to enjoy life to the fullest, you need to eliminate the everyday stress: stress of paying bills/mortgage, stress of not making enough money, stress of having a slow/unsuccessful practice, stress of paying taxes every month/quarter, the daily commute stress ( therefore, you need a nice car with autodrive feature) etc. The problem is money doesn’t grow on trees. You have to work hard to earn it. I’d rather work to earn a lot of money than to deal with these every day stress. It’s actually more stressful when you don't make enough money to eliminate all these everyday worries.....it sucks to live like that.....that's definitely not the lifestyle I want.

Who say you don’t get to enjoy life from working too hard? You can still make time to travel even if you work 6 days/wk. For ortho, the patients, who are mostly young children, don’t go see their orthodontists on major holidays like Spring break, Thanksgiving, Labor day, Independent Day, Xmas break. If you open on those holidays, your office will be empty. Therefore, you can use those Holidays to take vacation with your family. With money, I didn’t have to change the kids’ diapers very often because I had a live-in nanny. When the kids got older, the nanny worked as a housekeeper….I didn’t have to cook/wash dishes and had more time to spend with the kids. I don’t have to clean the house because there is a cleaning lady who comes to my house 2x a month. I get to live in the one of most expensive states in America. I get to enjoy things that only Californians have the privilege to enjoy…beautiful weather, good food, good theme parks. Having a nice house with a parklike back yard, that I enjoy every day, I don’t need to travel a lot. I enjoy having friends over for dinner. All of these require money…..a lot of it.

 

[LFA20]

Man I wish one of y’all can adopt me…

 

[schmoob]

Man I wish one of y’all can adopt me…

No way. I can’t afford it.

 

[charlestweed]

Man I wish one of y’all can adopt me…

You don't need to be adopted. You will become a dentist and you will be rich.

 

[Cold Front]

You will become a dentist and you will be rich.

Ha! Be careful what you wish for never applied to dentistry as it does today.

 

[charlestweed]

Ha! Be careful what you wish for never applied to dentistry as it does today.

If you can't make enough to pay off the $600k debt after having worked for 25-30 years as a dentist, it means that you don't work hard enough or there must be something wrong with your spending habit.

In the case of Toothsaver2, he went to a 2yr community college to save money and he didn't care what his HS classmates thought. He doesn't mind the delayed gratification (for he has to serve the Navy after graduation). With this mentality, he will be successful wherever he goes.

 

[LFA20]

If you can't make enough to pay off the $600k debt after having worked for 25-30 years as a dentist, it means that you don't work hard enough or there must be something wrong with your spending habit.

In the case of Toothsaver2, he went to a 2yr community college to save money and he didn't care what his HS classmates thought. He doesn't mind the delayed gratification (for he has to serve the Navy after graduation). With this mentality, he will be successful wherever he goes.

Thanks @charlestweed

I graduated dental school 4 years ago 😆. I have been serving in the Navy for the past 4 years 🤓

 

[charlestweed]

Thanks @charlestweed

I graduated dental school 4 years ago 😆. I have been serving in the Navy for the past 4 years 🤓

Thank you for your service to this great country.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Thank you for your service to this great country.

Big Hoss

 

[charlestweed]

View attachment 354765

Big Hoss

I’ve just installed this flag pole in front of my yard. It took me more than half a day to install it….a lot digging while trying to preserve the plants around it. I am so proud of my work. I just need a brighter light to illuminate it at night.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

This ship is going down.

How did you know this?! Are you some kind of wizard?

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

View attachment 356203

How did you know this?! Are you some kind of wizard?

Big Hoss

Big Hoss

 

[P7898]

For new grads - work 5-6 days a week in a rural area and you will make plenty of money. Cheers.

 

[cluelessdr]

For new grads - work 5-6 days a week in a rural area and you will make plenty of money. Cheers.

how do you find rural opportunities

 

[P7898]

how do you find rural opportunities

Look on indeed and start pulling up google maps. Anywhere where there is not much in the town is a "rural opportunity".

 

[cluelessdr]

Look on indeed and start pulling up google maps. Anywhere where there is not much in the town is a "rural opportunity".

indeed cost money right? i cant ever view someones prfile on indeed without paying

 

[P7898]

Indeed is free.... just google "dentist jobs in KY" and indeed will pop up and look at jobs in KY