Experience Abroad

[equineconstant]

I'm interning at an equine hospital this summer in Ireland. Since it's a different country and the rules are different, I might be able to do more hands-on work than in America. I thought this would be a good thing.

However, another girl from the same program is doing an internship at a human medical hospital, and she told me that her pre-med advisor was really concerned about it. According to her, med schools freak out about students doing things they wouldn't be allowed to in the States, even though it was legal where they did those things. So she said I should probably avoid mentioning those things in my interview.

So what do you think it is for vet school? Is it a good thing if I'm broadening my experience with more hands-on work, or is it a potential liability that I shouldn't talk about in my vet school applications?

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[wildcatj]

I think the only place it gets a little fuzzy is when you're talking about things like the VIDA trips where you can do surgery. I would imagine getting experience someplace like Ireland is going to be a lot different than a third world country. In case you're interested, here's the thread where a lot of the ethics of doing things abroad that are illegal here are addressed: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=778454&highlight=Surgery+abroad

 

[bunnity]

To the OP: I'm not trying to pick on you with this response; there have been a couple mentions recently of "getting to do more" that I think are important to address. I know as a pre-vet you don't have the knowledge to always know what is and isn't an appropriate level of responsibility. I definitely have different, and stronger, opinions now that I am halfway through vet school. So it's not that it's bad to be asking these questions! That said...

First off, I doubt Ireland and the USA would be much different. It's not a third world country You could PM the SDN member "devyn" since she is in Ireland if you wanted to know similarities and differences.

Second, the point of getting experience before vet school is NOT "who can manage to push boundaries the most or do the most technically difficult task." It's about getting a feel for the profession, the thought process, the day-to-day, the pros and cons of the field. You can do that without ever touching an animal. Learning "skills" like restraint and injections and fluids is nice, but it's not going to get you into vet school. The people in my class have extremely different backgrounds; there are people who had never touched a horse or cow, but had plenty of experience in other areas. No matter who you are, you will need to learn clinical skills in school. That's why they teach them.

Third, why do you think there are "rules" in the USA about who can do what? Because it's unethical to do something if you don't have the right level of knowledge and training! Just because another country is lacking in legal protection of animals doesn't mean it's okay for a pre-vet to go over there and play vet. Ethics don't change when you cross a border.

 

[devyn]

Actually the laws in Ireland regarding who can practice veterinary medicine are very similar to the laws in the United States. While you will get to do some hands-on work while at the equine hospital it will be more on the level of a vet tech most likely. From my understanding with internships over here depending on the hospital you will get to administer treatments that a technician might do and also assist with surgeries and what not, so it is more on a vet tech level with the vets letting you shadow them on a higher level. The one huge difference between Ireland and the US is that in Ireland vet techs must be licensed and registered, so even though I have worked for years in the states as a tech I cannot get a job here as one because I am not licensed. Obviously if you were to attend vet school over here and do your clinical rotations in the hospitals here in final year then more hands on work would be done.

There is no reason you would not be able to talk about your experience at the equine practice at any of your veterinary interviews or applications later on as the vets will not let you do anything unethical or that is a liability to their practice. Now if you went down on one of those tropical trips that wildcat posted then I would be inclined to leave some stuff out.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think the only place it gets a little fuzzy is when you're talking about things like the VIDA trips where you can do surgery.

Just FYI, VIDA trips don't allow surgery anymore for pre-vets and vet students who haven't completed surgical training.

 

[twelvetigers]

Just FYI, VIDA trips don't allow surgery anymore for pre-vets and vet students who haven't completed surgical training.

Yep. But it's still a wonderful program and an amazing experience, so if that's something you are looking for, it's still a great option.

Just putting in my plug, since I really like the people that run the program and what it represents.

 

[equineconstant]

Gosh, I definitely wasn't thinking I would be DOING surgery. I think that is entirely unreasonable. The most I expect in terms of "doing more" is maybe doing stitches afterwards. I realize that's still an issue (I think that was the particular issue with the med student), but with that specifically, what do you think?

And thanks for the link wildcatj, I'm reading through it.

 

[shortnsweet]

My guess is, like others have said, is that you will be doing more tech like work. Blood draws, nights checks, daily meds, running labs, etc.. If you are ever unsure about anything, ask. Just be straight up and honest with the doctors and techs about what you have done before, and they will be able to determine how much you can do/what they will supervise you in. As long as you are honest throughout the internship and on the application, there is nothing wrong with putting it in there on VMCAS. Be prepared to answer questions about it. You might want to keep a journal about everything you see and do.

The UK/Ireland are a bit different to the US in what we are allowed to do once we are vet students. Because of EMS being a requirement to graduate(26 clinical weeks to be exact), most practices know we need hands on clinical experience, and, as they had to go through it as well, know the importance of teaching even if they can't let you do.

Sounds like a great opportunity to me. Live it up!

 

[Trematode]

Sounds like a great opportunity to me too, especially if you are one of the people who has had bad luck getting hands-on experience. It is not against the law here to be registered to do tech stuff, but I have spent 95% of my time in clinics cleaning/shadowing with very little opportunity for hands-on.

 

[equineconstant]

Sounds like a great opportunity to me too, especially if you are one of the people who has had bad luck getting hands-on experience. It is not against the law here to be registered to do tech stuff, but I have spent 95% of my time in clinics cleaning/shadowing with very little opportunity for hands-on.

Right, that's what I was thinking when I signed up for it. But now I'm really concerned because people are bringing up these ethical issues I hadn't even thought of!

 

[sunshinevet]

I think it will be fiiiine. In general I think the UK might be even stricter than the US with who is allowed to do what - once you are a vet student with an approved uni they will let you do stuff (the scope of which is included in their veterinary legislation) but I think you might find yourself potentially more limited as a pre-vet - their hierachy within vet clinics is quite strict and you literally cannot get a job without being a registered something.

Was there a particular reason you thought you might get to do more stuff there? Ie a friend with a personal experience etc? Were any duties described to you as part of being accepted to the internship? I would say this is your best indicator as to what you might do.

I guess the biggest issue I would have as a vet with you doing sutures is those inscisions are HUGE and take aaaaaages to close - even longer if you're just learning! Add another 1.5 hrs to the aneasthetic!

 

[wildcatj]

I think it will be fiiiine. In general I think the UK might be even stricter than the US with who is allowed to do what - once you are a vet student with an approved uni they will let you do stuff (the scope of which is included in their veterinary legislation) but I think you might find yourself potentially more limited as a pre-vet - their hierachy within vet clinics is quite strict and you literally cannot get a job without being a registered something.

Was there a particular reason you thought you might get to do more stuff there? Ie a friend with a personal experience etc? Were any duties described to you as part of being accepted to the internship? I would say this is your best indicator as to what you might do.

I guess the biggest issue I would have as a vet with you doing sutures is those inscisions are HUGE and take aaaaaages to close - even longer if you're just learning! Add another 1.5 hrs to the aneasthetic!

Haha that was my thought too. I cringed a little. I don't know how I feel about suturing up 1ft+ incisions.

 

[sunshinevet]

Haha that was my thought too. I cringed a little. I don't know how I feel about suturing up 1ft+ incisions.

Dude closing = my least favourite and longest part of surgery class. I swear it takes me longer to close a xyphoid to pubis incision on a young piggy than it takes for me to do a spleenectomy and gastropexy!!!

Some of my guy friends have said that when they're vets, they're going to hire "professional closers"!

 

[dyachei]

Dude closing = my least favourite and longest part of surgery class. I swear it takes me longer to close a xyphoid to pubis incision on a young piggy than it takes for me to do a spleenectomy and gastropexy!!!

Some of my guy friends have said that when they're vets, they're going to hire "professional closers"!

So yeah, closing used to take me forever, too. I guess I've had enough practice now because my last close seemed to fly by. Also, Ford interlocking sutures FTW on large animals!

Seriously, if you want to suture, let them know while you're there and maybe pick up one of those fake skin kits to have someone teach you. Holding instruments is not done the way most people expect.

 

[equineconstant]

It was actually a different internship that said I would be suturing, etc. That one was in New Zealand, not Ireland. I was just worrying about it here because of what my pre-med housemate said.

Thanks for all of your advice, everyone! I'm feeling a lot better about it now and excited to start tomorrow!

 

[sunshinevet]

Oh wow super exciting! From your post I had no idea how close it was (maybe cuz its winter here lol!)

Hope you have a fun, great first day!

 

[shortnsweet]

I want to be back in Aussie so badly....even if it is winter

Must find externship there asap.

 

[sunshinevet]

I want to be back in Aussie so badly....even if it is winter

Must find externship there asap.

Unless your looking for something paid, don't worry about looking for applications etc. Just decide where you want to go and call awesome sounding clinics in the area - most of them are so used to taking vet students for EMS that they don't mind taking internationals too (as long as you sort out your insurance). I've seen international students come to clinics I work at for 6-8wks, just from emailing

So yeah, pick what you wanna do it in, pick your area and then google!!!

 

[shortnsweet]

Unless your looking for something paid, don't worry about looking for applications etc. Just decide where you want to go and call awesome sounding clinics in the area - most of them are so used to taking vet students for EMS that they don't mind taking internationals too (as long as you sort out your insurance). I've seen international students come to clinics I work at for 6-8wks, just from emailing

So yeah, pick what you wanna do it in, pick your area and then google!!!

That is fantastical news! Know of any good equine or mixed practice places?

 

[sunshinevet]

This vet is probably the leading private equine vet hospital in Australia: need to book early with them!

http://gvequine.com.au/

If goulburn valley is not the leading equine vet... Scone is...
http://www.sconeequinehospital.com.au/

On the other side of the country lol, Broome vet is amazing - super high quality SA work AND they do most of the cattle and horse work over the entire top end of WA, as he is one of the only vets that will travel 300km+ to stations!
http://www.broomevet.com.au/staff/staff.html

If you wanted what I think would be a unique Aussie experience in the middle of nowhere with TONNES of hands on, wildlife, and take on everything that is thrown at you...
http://www.ntvet.com.au/Home/index.cfm?Type=1&AboutYourVet=Yes

If you don't mind dairy this place is said to be good, a girl from a few years ago works there now I believe:
http://www.tvg.com.au/index.htm

Just some food for thought
(Yes I am procrastinating, I have an exam in the morning lol!)

If you ever wanted to come to perth I could hook you up, but we're pretty light on in the equine stakes down here!

 

[shortnsweet]

Thanks so much!!!

I lived in Brissy in 2008, but did not nearly see as much of the country as I hoped to