Experience with away rotations at UCSD, USC, UC Davis?

[Anita Shirley]

Was wondering if anyone had experiences doing away rotations at any of the following schools: UC Davis, UCSD, or USC? Or what people have heard about them? I know there is a google doc from last year but the information for these schools is sparse. In particular, I am interested in knowing how much doing an away rotation help my chances of getting an interview there? I am currently at a top 10 med school and have good scores (>250)/grades and several derm posters/abstracts but no actual publications yet, but I know all those programs are only about 4 students so Idk how likely you are to get an interview there if you didn't go there for med school/do an away rotation there. I have a strong preference for matching in CA (I know it's hard to be picky but if i'm going to do an away rotation, might as well try) but don't have a strong preference among USC/UCSD/Davis yet and just want to do an away at the school at which doing an away is most likely to make an impact/ the school that is least likely to accept me if I don't do an away. So if you happen to know something about what percentage of accepted residents did an away/came from that medical school vs not, that would be very helpful!!

My primary question is the one above, but if you also have thoughts on the following, that would be helpful too
1. How much time is spent seeing patients yourself vs shadowing
2. How much faculty interaction do you get? Can you get to work with anyone more than a couple times/enough to make an impression?

Thank you so much!

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[didja]

USC is one of the top programs in the country from my biased perspective, having trained there. Ridiculous pathology/ autonomy / strong at everything (including Hansen's Disease!) / about the nicest faculty you'll ever meet. Rotators typically given interviews when I was there but interestingly I don't remember too many of them matching (but they were always really snobby about who they ranked). I think UCD and UCSD are strong programs too but not USC strong.

 

[Dral]

I'm just learning as a third year resident how much other programs shadow or work in attending clinics.

My program has 1 half day of attending clinic. The rest of ours are resident clinics. I just wrongly assumed all programs were like that.

 

[PatsyStone]

I'm just learning as a third year resident how much other programs shadow or work in attending clinics.

My program has 1 half day of attending clinic. The rest of ours are resident clinics. I just wrongly assumed all programs were like that.

Based on my rotations, when I was ranking programs, I wanted ones that were a balance between the two.

If you have all attending clinics, depending on the attending, your desired course of treatment (and your ability to develop your own style of treatment) may be overruled by the attending. Besides, your ability to work quickly is curtailed if a third year still needs to have an attending double-check their full-body skin exam. On the plus side, if you are at a referral center, these attendings will have panels of more complex cases the PP guys have referred.

At a primarily resident clinic program, you have more autonomy (and the ability to function independently, which you'll need as an attending), but you're going to have less diverse pathology because you'll be seeing whatever comes through the door. You'll see a lot of PR, AD, PS, melasma, acne, rosacea, and skin cancer, with a sprinkling of more interesting stuff.

To me, the best programs were ones with a university clinic so you could have frequent exposure to CTCL, genodermatoses, GVHD, bullous diseases, etc. while also having autonomy at a VA and/or county hospital.

 

[Anita Shirley]

Thanks guys! The stuff about residency is very helpful but for this stage, I meant more in terms of--if you do an away rotation as a med student, how much will you get to see patients or will they just have you shadow? My med school lets students do pretty much everything on our derm subI but i've heard other programs have you just shadow

also if people have thoughts on my primary question--how much doing an away rotation will help your chances of an interview/matching at any of those programs, that would be super helpful! Thanks for your input on that didja!

 

[dermie1985]

I would chose USC of those 3 choices. From the sense I got talking on the trail, they typically interview away rotators. Plus, the residents are all really happy there (I know a few) and the chair is phenomenal. 5 weeks of vacation per year isn't bad either. They also have a lot of autonomy, and LA County is phenomenal. I would imagine that environment would apply to medical student rotators as well. *Disclaimer: I did not do an away rotation there and did not get an interview.

I'd also add UCLA, UCI, Kaiser, and Loma Linda to your list if you really legitimately want to stay in Cali. Kaiser and Loma Linda are really small programs (2 residents/year) and I think they strongly preference people they "know". I interviewed at Kaiser and felt like it was actually a better program than people give it credit for. UCLA would be a good option if you already go to a Top 10 med school as well. I think they'd take your away rotation seriously.

I wouldn't really put USC above either UCSD or UCD in terms of training quality/prestige/ranking though. I'd say UCSD is probably top of those 3 at least in the derm community perception. I'd put UCD above USC as well, but it's usually less popular for obvious reasons (i.e. location). Believe me, living in Sacramento is not really "living in California". USC is very weak in research (from what I was told, it was not an emphasis or strength of the program), though I know they're trying to get better. I'm pretty sure April Armstrong (psoriasis bigwig from U.Colorado) got recruited to USC recently.

Just a quick thought about Cali programs. Realize that most of these programs are definitely quality, but the relatively "quality" of their match list has much more to do with their location than the quality of the education/research/etc. If you apply broadly, you'll definitely find that programs in less desirable locations actually have better training programs than places like UCD, UCSD, USC, UCI, Kaiser, Loma Linda or even UCLA. I'd say Stanford/UCSF are really the only 2 "great" programs in Cali. Stanford has stellar basic science research, though their clinical training is subpar compared to other programs despite what any of their attendings/residents will say to you. UCSF is it's own league, but you have to really be a "UCSF"-type to want to go there.

 

[PatsyStone]

I would chose USC of those 3 choices. From the sense I got talking on the trail, they typically interview away rotators. Plus, the residents are all really happy there (I know a few) and the chair is phenomenal. 5 weeks of vacation per year isn't bad either. They also have a lot of autonomy, and LA County is phenomenal. I would imagine that environment would apply to medical student rotators as well. *Disclaimer: I did not do an away rotation there and did not get an interview.

I'd also add UCLA, UCI, Kaiser, and Loma Linda to your list if you really legitimately want to stay in Cali. Kaiser and Loma Linda are really small programs (2 residents/year) and I think they strongly preference people they "know". I interviewed at Kaiser and felt like it was actually a better program than people give it credit for. UCLA would be a good option if you already go to a Top 10 med school as well. I think they'd take your away rotation seriously.

I wouldn't really put USC above either UCSD or UCD in terms of training quality/prestige/ranking though. I'd say UCSD is probably top of those 3 at least in the derm community perception. I'd put UCD above USC as well, but it's usually less popular for obvious reasons (i.e. location). Believe me, living in Sacramento is not really "living in California". USC is very weak in research (from what I was told, it was not an emphasis or strength of the program), though I know they're trying to get better. I'm pretty sure April Armstrong (psoriasis bigwig from U.Colorado) got recruited to USC recently.

Just a quick thought about Cali programs. Realize that most of these programs are definitely quality, but the relatively "quality" of their match list has much more to do with their location than the quality of the education/research/etc. If you apply broadly, you'll definitely find that programs in less desirable locations actually have better training programs than places like UCD, UCSD, USC, UCI, Kaiser, Loma Linda or even UCLA. I'd say Stanford/UCSF are really the only 2 "great" programs in Cali. Stanford has stellar basic science research, though their clinical training is subpar compared to other programs despite what any of their attendings/residents will say to you. UCSF is it's own league, but you have to really be a "UCSF"-type to want to go there.

I totally agree with the bolded part. This also applies to many (but not all) programs in other desirable areas like NYC and Chicago.

In terms of basic research, UCD is one of the top programs in the country, but it is usually overlooked. When you look at NIH funding, in 2013 UCD's derm department ranked 9th and in 2012 it ranked 13th (http://www.brimr.org/NIH_Awards/2013/NIH_Awards_2013.htm). Sacramento reminds me of Baltimore: if you ask someone from Baltimore what they like about the city, a fair number will say "DC." Similarly, the best thing about Sacramento is that it is close to the Bay Area and Tahoe. UCD does derm meetings with UCSF and Stanford, but the meetings are never at UCD (because no one wants to go to Sacramento if they don't have to). Another problem is that with Stanford and UCSF so close, a lot of the weird pathology (genodermatoses, CTCL, etc) is lost. That being said, the residents are nice and the environment is laid-back and supportive.

I also did not interview at USC, but I had friends who did, and they all loved it.

 

[Anita Shirley]

Thanks guys, that's really helpful! A good friend of mine also had really positive things to say about USC, especially the chair. I totally agree that many of the CA programs are more appealing because of the location not necessarily the training/research (outside of Stanford/UCSF), but location is (unfortunately?) quite important for me. I'm trying to keep an open mind though and will definitely apply and interview (hopefully ) broadly, but I don't plan on doing any aways outside of CA.

Dermie1985, I also get the sense that UCSD is better regarded than USC in terms of training/ranking. Where would you say UCLA falls in that? Do most people consider UCLA to have better training/prestige/research than UCSD? I had considered doing an away there as well but had heard their clinical training wasn't quite as good as the other three I mentioned.

 

[didja]

It's funny, I'm not on SDN much and I'm surprised I even saw this thread but this is fun.

USC has some great researchers including Dr Woodley and the basic scientists in his lab. To most residents that doesn't matter much though, especially compared to USC's strongest aspect- the unmatched clinical pathology.

My (again admittedly biased opinion) is that UCSD residents don't have much autonomy outside of their VA and probably aren't trained as well as the Navy program's residents in San Diego (which civilians aren't eligible to attend).

Ucla is a great research program but the residents get very little autonomy (sort of opposite of USC actually) so you need to decide how you learn best.

Can't say much about UCD as I didn't get an interview there and I didn't interact with anyone from there. I did go to the farmer's market in Davis once, it was really nice, but UCD med school is sort of on the eastern side of Sacramento, no where near Davis, wine country, SF, etc. Some of the other posters think UCD is better than USC, that is news to me but I don't practice near there. I can't imagine that I would have ever ranked it higher than USC, but again, I'm unabashedly biased in this.

 

[dermie1985]

It's funny, I'm not on SDN much and I'm surprised I even saw this thread but this is fun.

USC has some great researchers including Dr Woodley and the basic scientists in his lab. To most residents that doesn't matter much though, especially compared to USC's strongest aspect- the unmatched clinical pathology.

My (again admittedly biased opinion) is that UCSD residents don't have much autonomy outside of their VA and probably aren't trained as well as the Navy program's residents in San Diego (which civilians aren't eligible to attend).

Ucla is a great research program but the residents get very little autonomy (sort of opposite of USC actually) so you need to decide how you learn best.

Can't say much about UCD as I didn't get an interview there and I didn't interact with anyone from there. I did go to the farmer's market in Davis once, it was really nice, but UCD med school is sort of on the eastern side of Sacramento, no where near Davis, wine country, SF, etc. Some of the other posters think UCD is better than USC, that is news to me but I don't practice near there. I can't imagine that I would have ever ranked it higher than USC, but again, I'm unabashedly biased in this.

To clarify....I was mainly commenting on overall program/reputation/ranking in the general derm community...not where I personally would rank programs. I thought USC was great and personally would rank it above some other Cali programs with better "reputations". But, USC is not really a research powerhouse and its residents come there for the public hospital and autonomy, not for the research opportunities or "prestige".

I know less about UCLA /UCSD as I didn't interview there. I heard the UCSD residents aren't super happy, but there is a lot of research (mainly basic science) there. I met a (former) UCLA faculty at an interview at another institution. She left UCLA because she didn't feel like the pathology was great there for her specific interests- "all of the interesting patients get seen at Harbor or County". Santa Monica is a great area and it's a beautiful hospital, UCLA also tends to match great applicants but probably more for the location, UCLA "name", etc. rather than the program quality. In terms of an away rotation, I know UCLA does not give all outside rotators an interview. But, if you're from a Top 10 school and your stats are otherwise great, I think they'll consider you if you do a good job and are likeable.

I think a lot of the whole process is finding a program that fits *you* well. Everyone has different preferences (autonomy, research, prestige, etc.). At the end of the day, all the programs are good enough that it doesn't matter too much where you go. Location is probably the most important factor so I think the OP has already got it right.

 

[didja]

/\ yep, can't really go wrong with any of these programs.

 

[Anita Shirley]

Thanks! And dermie1985, I do understand that you were commenting on overall program/reputation/ranking in the general derm community...not where you personally would rank programs. That's what I meant by UCLA vs UCSD--are they pretty on par or is UCLA usually considered to have a higher "ranking?"

And you're right, in the end it's about finding a program that is the best fit and perhaps I'll end up liking an east coast/midwest program much more than any of the Cali ones; obviously I'll have a much better idea after interviews. but at this point, before interviewing and before knowing too much about the programs, it seems hard and almost arbitrary to pick just one to do an away rotation at. So perhaps I should do it at the one that will be the biggest "reach?" (which is why I was asking about UCLA vs UCSD "ranking"). Or perhaps I should do it at USC because from what I've heard from people, both here and elsewhere, it's an amazing program and likely to be one that I will love. Ideally, I would be able to interview at multiple ones from that list and use that to figure it out but with such few interviews, it's hard to know which ones you'll get...

 

[dermie1985]

Thanks! And dermie1985, I do understand that you were commenting on overall program/reputation/ranking in the general derm community...not where you personally would rank programs. That's what I meant by UCLA vs UCSD--are they pretty on par or is UCLA usually considered to have a higher "ranking?"

And you're right, in the end it's about finding a program that is the best fit and perhaps I'll end up liking an east coast/midwest program much more than any of the Cali ones; obviously I'll have a much better idea after interviews. but at this point, before interviewing and before knowing too much about the programs, it seems hard and almost arbitrary to pick just one to do an away rotation at. So perhaps I should do it at the one that will be the biggest "reach?" (which is why I was asking about UCLA vs UCSD "ranking"). Or perhaps I should do it at USC because from what I've heard from people, both here and elsewhere, it's an amazing program and likely to be one that I will love. Ideally, I would be able to interview at multiple ones from that list and use that to figure it out but with such few interviews, it's hard to know which ones you'll get...

I think UCSD and UCLA are pretty equally regarded. It might just depend on who you ask. I'm pretty sure basic science research at UCSD is superior. UCLA has a great transplant population so interesting derm-related pathology and related specialty clinics. I didn't interview at either, but from what from people told me on the trail, the applicants all seemed to prefer UCLA over UCSD.

It's probably harder to match at UCLA because many people prefer to live in LA over SD and there's a general cultural association in SoCal that UCLA > UCSD in a very general sense. I'd chose the program you think you'd rather go to (i.e. location, specific research interests, "fit", etc.).

 

[Anita Shirley]

okay, cool, thanks so much!!

 

[dermathalon]

I'll join the fray here:

California programs will give you pretty good training. I think there are a lot of programs out there but I would be hard pressed to believe that you get better training than in California. Food for thought is that Cali has good diversity throughout the state and so you will see diverse skin tones and the environment is laid back typically. Up to you to decide on what you believe but to generalize that smaller programs elsewhere will be stronger than Cali programs is just a generalization. There are great programs everywhere.

UCSD just became a department and so that is going to increase their ability to autonomously make decisions as a department. They have great location and have one of the strongest peds derm programs in the nation and so you it would be a great opportunity to go there. The med students don't get to do much on the peds rotation side of it. The clinics will depend on the attending. The residents seem pretty happy. They also have access to a Hansen's clinic, which is very cool. The research is more skewed toward basic science but the peds department does have a good clinical trials set up and so you may get involved in more studies there. I think the combo of location and the newly minted department status make this a huge plus in my mind. Some medical students do a great job of getting involved and others seem to be wallpaper and I wonder if it boils down to a personality thing.

USC has very cool faculty. The chair is amazing and they have some new hires there that make the program much stronger. They have a new Mohs and psoriasis docs that will make the teaching even better. It's hard to imagine that you get any better pathology than a county system although county has its own set of challenges. I could go on about USC and I think it's a very strong department. Seems that other have commented on USC in the thread and I agree so I'll leave it at that without continuing to wax about them.

UCD is a hidden surprise. Residents are pretty happy. Everyone talks about the location as being bad but it really isn't. If you've been up to the Sacramento area, it's not near the coast so if you need that, it's out. It's very outdoors oriented. So if you need to see plays and lay on the beach...no go. If you love hiking, biking, water activities, it's great. Otherwise, it's pretty nice weather although the summers get hot away from the coast (true for southern CA as well and some of the satellite clinic sites for UCSD get pretty hot in the summer too). The medical students rotating get to actually do stuff there. For some reason, they have been retaining their residents like crazy in academics so clearly they are doing something right. They have a new program director and I have only heard great things about him and they are resident centric. They now have new faculty for skin of color, peds derm, acne, etc so they have really grown. This is the strongest department for research for both clinical and basic science and frequently engage residents and students. They have now built up international experiences as well and I know that at least two of their faculty have taken residents and medical students to India and Nepal for the last two years. They rotate at a Hansen's clinic as well so they get that experience although I hear that those that go on the international trips are seeing it all there including Hansen's and other crazy pathology. Not sure you get international opportunities at the other two sites since you need dedicated faculty that are willing to do this. The real estate is cheaper and your money won't all go to rent/mortgage...might make it easier if you have a family. The medical students can easily get involved in research here and can develop some close connections with faculty since so many engage in research and are willing to work with students.

So, you can decide what fits for you.