Explain New Traffic Rules

[puahate]

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But Joe wrote saying that you were his top choice and, if admitted, he would attend. You took him at his word but now he's turned you down!

Couple things.
1) Joe has probably been on the WL for a while. Joe probably is looking to start his life soon and needs to look for housing and figure out if he should reapply or not. Depending on how late the offer is it might be unrealistic to expect him to go to the school.

2) Im sure the SOM has a joe 2 down the list. A list with hundred of applicants. The school is not hurting at all.

3) If this school really wants Joe provide a better or matching offer.

The schools are not going to be in pain if joe does not attend.

 

[gyngyn]

It is scummy but before, there were at least acceptance reports for adcoms to know whether applicants were lying. Now that those are gone, is there really a way for you all to even tell?

We won't know. We will only have our historical memory (that would indicate that they aren't worth believing).

 

[premedalt]

But Joe wrote saying that you were his top choice and, if admitted, he would attend. You took him at his word but now he's turned you down!

Joe wrote that because at the time you currently were his top choice. Isnt there a higher chance that Joe will matriculate if accepted than someone who did not write a LOI? we know for sure that Joe, at this time, does not have a better choice. The same can't be said for Frank. This is assuming that post II these applicants are viewed as equal, (simmilar stats, ECs, and interview performance).

 

[LizzyM]

Joe wrote that because at the time you currently were his top choice. Isnt there a higher chance that Joe will matriculate if accepted than someone who did not write a LOI? we know for sure that Joe, at this time, does not have a better choice. The same can't be said for Frank. This is assuming that post II these applicants are viewed as equal, (simmilar stats, ECs, and interview performance).

The LOIntent is rubbish and makes no difference at all to admissions officials because applicants will say anything, change their minds but never recind the LOI. Why pick Joe over Frank when it is equally likely that they will matriculate? If the LOI won't help you get off of the waitlist, why waste your time writing it?

 

[LizzyM]

Couple things.
1) Joe has probably been on the WL for a while. Joe probably is looking to start his life soon and needs to look for housing and figure out if he should reapply or not. Depending on how late the offer is it might be unrealistic to expect him to go to the school.

If Joe has moved on, he should notify the school and withdraw his name. Failing to do so, he is signalling that he is still available.

 

[premedalt]

The LOIntent is rubbish and makes no difference at all to admissions officials because applicants will say anything, change their minds but never recind the LOI. Why pick Joe over Frank when it is equally likely that they will matriculate? If the LOI won't help you get off of the waitlist, why waste your time writing it?

That's the thing tho. Is it equally likely that they will matriculate? One applicant we know for sure doesn't currently have a better option, the other applicant we don't know for sure. Or am I missing something?

 

[MacBee]

applicants will say anything, change their minds but never recind the LOI

One applicant we know for sure doesn't currently have a better option, the other applicant we don't know for sure. Or am I missing something?

I think you're missing that you don't actually know for either applicant, because LOIs are unreliable. The AdComs are basically saying they don't trust an untrustworthy tool.

 

[premedalt]

I think you're missing that you don't actually know for either applicant, because LOIs are unreliable. The AdComs are basically saying they don't trust an untrustworthy tool.

Would an applicant really write a LOI to a school if they were already accepted somewhere else they'd rather go?

 

[LizzyM]

Would an applicant really write a LOI to a school if they were already accepted somewhere else they'd rather go?

No but they'll write a letter of intent to the three schools that have waitlisted 'em and say to each "you are my top choice."

 

[premedalt]

No but they'll write a letter of intent to the three schools that have waitlisted 'em and say to each "you are my top choice."

Right. So it's a choice between choosing this applicant, who we know for sure **currently** doesn't have a better option (but may get in some where better later on), vs an applicant that we have no clue at all if they got in somewhere better already or if they will be accepted somewhere better. I really don't see what I'm missing here...

 

[LizzyM]

Right. So it's a choice between choosing this applicant, who we know for sure **currently** doesn't have a better option (but may get in some where better later on), vs an applicant that we have no clue at all if they got in somewhere better already or if they will be accepted somewhere better. I really don't see what I'm missing here...

Everyone's "better" is different. Then there are those who just want to get off a waitlist for bragging rights (I had 12 offers!) and to play your offer off of another in an attempt to get more scholarship money.

 

[RNtoMD87]

So assuming one did happen to have outstanding stats, and wanted to go to some certain school, but didn’t want the school to toss his app just because they expect him to go to a “better” school, what should said applicant do?

 

[deleted787552]

We won't know. We will only have our historical memory (that would indicate that they aren't worth believing).

Historical memory of a particular applicant or a preconceived notion that LOIs are not helpful? Unless you're looking at reapplicants, it looks like adcoms either have to accept someone's LOI on blind faith or ignore them all.

 

[LizzyM]

So assuming one did happen to have outstanding stats, and wanted to go to some certain school, but didn’t want the school to toss his app just because they expect him to go to a “better” school, what should said applicant do?

Write early and often. If there is an opportunity to express your desire in the secondary, do so. Send an update letter pre-interview specifying your interest in that school for reasons x, y and z. Express it at the interview. Send an up-date post-interview expressing continued interest in the school. If you are really hot stuff, the school should be happy to have you and may admit you knowing that you will be a good catch who will say yes. But don't bull**** Georgetown if you are likely to be admitted and enroll at NYU.

 

[gyngyn]

Historical memory of a particular applicant or a preconceived notion that LOIs are not helpful? Unless you're looking at reapplicants, it looks like adcoms either have to accept someone's LOI on blind faith or ignore them all.

I am referring to the memory of observing "LOI's" to be things that are sent to all schools without regard to any particular inclination to attend. This is why the admissions officers I know pay them little heed.

 

[Goro]

What amazes me about this thread is that despite multiple admissions people explaining patiently why LOI are a bad idea, and why they are ignored, people are still arguing as to why they should be a good thing, or at least, why they are not a bad thing.

 

[premedalt]

1) in a very limited set of conditions a well written LOI from a candidate may have some impact. However these circumstances only exist for a small minority of candidates.
2) a poorly written letter, sounding desperate and whiny, is more likely to diminish a WL chance than help.
3) this brings up the larger concept that most premeds fail to grasp. Every action an applicant takes can have both positive and negative impacts. However applicants often only view actions optomistically without ever looking for, much less understanding the risks. An applicant’s strategy must include both emphasizing positive as well as reducing risks that are wholly under their control

So if I am understanding you correctly, it seems that as long as a LOI is not poorly written (as in, it doesn't stupidly say "please, you're my only chance, please, pretty please, take me"), it can either help you or have no impact, depending on the adcom. So, again, as long as it's not stupidly written, what does the applicant have to lose by sending in a LOI?

 

[premedalt]

What amazes me about this thread is that despite multiple admissions people explaining patiently why LOI are a bad idea, and why they are ignored, people are still arguing as to why they should be a good thing, or at least, why they are not a bad thing.

It really amazes you that applicants who have worked their asses off the last several years in order to get into med school want to know if there's a way to improve their chances, even if slightly?

 

[neurosurgeon_wannabe]

It really amazes you that applicants who have worked their asses off the last several years in order to get into med school want to know if there's a way to improve their chances, even if slightly?

But they’ve all answered your question(s). You just dislike their answers and keep repeating the questions/insisting the answers are actually different.

 

[gyngyn]

So if I am understanding you correctly, it seems that as long as a LOI is not poorly written (as in, it doesn't stupidly say "please, you're my only chance, please, pretty please, take me"), it can either help you or have no impact, depending on the adcom. So, again, as long as it's not stupidly written, what does the applicant have to lose by sending in a LOI?

Many schools explicitly state that they prefer not to receive them. In that case, it would hurt.
Also, 'poorly written' can be in the eye of the beholder.

 

[premedalt]

But they’ve all answered your question(s). You just dislike their answers and keep repeating the questions/insisting the answers are actually different.

I apologise. here is how I have seen this conversation so far, please feel free to correct me where I am mistaken:

Someone said LOIs are likely to hurt your chances when you reapply next year. I responded saying that I don't think adcoms will really look at them so negatively, in fact if it's well written, it can highlight how you feel you are a good fit for this school. at worst, they ignore it. The other user responded by saying that a LOI makes that person seem like no other school wanted them, and this will negatively affect how this applicant is viewed. I responded, that the LOI didn't add any new information, because it's already clear that not other school accepted them based on the fact that they are reapplying. A different user tried answering this by saying that a LOI makes you worse than a reapplicant because in the LOI you are saying that the school is your last choice. I responded by saying that people don't send LOIs saying that the school is their last choice. they say it's their top choice and give reasons why the fele they are a good fit. Again, there is no good reason given so far regarding how a LOI can possibly hurt.

another point brought up, is that applicant who send LOIs still end up matriculating elsewhere. I responded that an applicant sending a letter of intent shows that the applicant **currently** has no better school that they would rather go to. The same cant be said for an applicant who did not send a LOI. they responded that there are applicants who actually are accepted to better schools, but want to show off that they were accepted to as many schools as they can, or use that acceptance to negotiate scholarships. I personally think that these cases aren't as common as people actually sending a LOI because they actually want to attend that school, but I agree that these are fair points and reasons that adcoms may ignore LOIs. However, I still don't see how a well written LOI can possibly hurt an applicant.

so the question I still have, that I don't feel has been answered, is how a normally written LOI can hurt an applicant. There's the slight chance that one of the thousands of adcoms in a medical school has a different view on LOIs than the 3-5 adcoms on this thread. Wouldn't it be better for an applicant to have the peace of mind of sending one? Knowing they did all they could the previous cycle rather than wonder about what ifs?

 

[premedalt]

Many schools explicitly state that they prefer not to receive them. In that case, it would hurt.
Also, 'poorly written' can be in the eye of the beholder.

I 100% agree that applicants should not send LOIs to those schools then. This conversation better applies to schools who don't have that policy.

I agree, poorly written is in the eyes of the beholder. Treat it like a personal statement or secondary and get multiple sets of eyes to look it over.

 

[Goro]

I apologise. here is how I have seen this conversation so far, please feel free to correct me where I am mistaken:

Someone said LOIs are likely to hurt your chances when you reapply next year. I responded saying that I don't think adcoms will really look at them so negatively,

And your experience with medical school admissions is exactly what?

 

[premedalt]

And your experience with medical school admissions is exactly what?

Here is the original comment I made regarding that:

"Do adcoms really go:

"Oh ****! Check out this applicant! They wrote a LOI last cycle lmao. What a loser. Throw this application in the never to be accepted pile"

Or do they go:

"Huh okay a letter of intent explaining why they would be a good fit for this school. I'll take this into consideration when evaluating this applicant"


I apologise if I was wrong to assume that the majority of adcoms act like the latter.

 

[RNtoMD87]

To me an LOI seems redundant. You’re showing interest by applying.

 

[Med Ed]

Here is the original comment I made regarding that:

"Do adcoms really go:

"Oh ****! Check out this applicant! They wrote a LOI last cycle lmao. What a loser. Throw this application in the never to be accepted pile"

Or do they go:

"Huh okay a letter of intent explaining why they would be a good fit for this school. I'll take this into consideration when evaluating this applicant"


I apologise if I was wrong to assume that the majority of adcoms act like the latter.

You are presenting a false choice. If a reapplicant submitted a LOI during the previous cycle there are no less than six possible scenarios:

LOI was cringe-worthy, improvement to application is substantial
LOI was cringe-worthy, improvement to application is minimal
LOI was neutral, improvement to application is substantial
LOI was neutral, improvement to application is minimal
LOI was unread, improvement to application is substantial
LOI was unread, improvement to application is minimal

LOI's are not necessary to explain why an applicant is a good fit. If the fit is indeed good, it should be abundantly clear through AMCAS, the secondaries, and the interview.

 

[premedalt]

You are presenting a false choice. If a reapplicant submitted a LOI during the previous cycle there are no less than six possible scenarios:

LOI was cringe-worthy, improvement to application is substantial
LOI was cringe-worthy, improvement to application is minimal
LOI was neutral, improvement to application is substantial
LOI was neutral, improvement to application is minimal
LOI was unread, improvement to application is substantial
LOI was unread, improvement to application is minimal

LOI's are not necessary to explain why an applicant is a good fit. If the fit is indeed good, it should be abundantly clear through AMCAS, the secondaries, and the interview.

The choices I presented were in response to someone stating that a LOI most of the time hurts the applicant the following cycle. I was trying to show how ridiculous of a thought process one must have to view an applicant more negatively because of a LOI (as long as it's not stupidly written).

 

[RNtoMD87]

Someone earlier had mentioned an LOI saying “I have received no other offers.” This is what I was referring to as desperate.

 

[RNthenDoc]

If LOIs are scummy, sending secondaries to applicants you *know* you won’t accept is absolutely unethical and shameful.

Professionalism goes both ways, friends.

 

[RNtoMD87]

This is a good point. If it’s not a part of the official application process, it’s really going to have to stand out to make any impact, as well as just happen to be seen by the right person to care.

 

[dodolol21]

Wow, this thread is wild. Some seriously alarming comments out here. Can't help but feel bad that because of others our honest well-crafted letters of intent might not even be taken seriously. I personally sent one to my top choice school and now worry itll never even be read

 

[RNtoMD87]

I don’t think it’s that some are dishonest. I think the adcoms are saying for the most part, with very few exceptions that they just don’t care.

 

[93sindibad]

1) in a very limited set of conditions a well written LOI from a candidate may have some impact. However these circumstances only exist for a small minority of candidates.
2) a poorly written letter, sounding desperate and whiny, is more likely to diminish a WL chance than help.
3) this brings up the larger concept that most premeds fail to grasp. Every action an applicant takes can have both positive and negative impacts. However applicants often only view actions optomistically without ever looking for, much less understanding the risks. An applicant’s strategy must include both emphasizing positive as well as reducing risks that are wholly under their control

Could you possibly give an example of when a LOI would be taken seriously? I wrote one for a school that I'm waitlisted at, multiple drafts, had my friends who go to the school look over it for me, and gave a specific reasons about why I wanted to go to that school. I genuinely hope to be offered a spot there, but now I'm worried that my LOI won't be taken seriously. To give a little bit of background, I'm from a different city but I happened to complete a masters at that school, and I decided to stay there after graduating. I've volunteered through some of the schools organizations and even took some additional upper level classes at their undergraduate school this past year. Would my LOI be taken seriously considering my decision to remain in the city and remain active with them?

 

[93sindibad]

You happened to complete a masters there? you decided to stay there? if you expressed your LOI in similarly nearly neutral terms, I would not count it as a very strong or compelling LOI

Well I went into much more detail than what I gave in my post, but from all the people I had read it, their reaction was that it sounded like someone who genuinely wanted to stay there and attend. I gave good (at least I thought so) personal reasons about why I would choose to go to their school as well. Is there anything specific you ever look for in an LOI that you would consider compelling?

 

[LizzyM]

Could you possibly give an example of when a LOI would be taken seriously? I wrote one for a school that I'm waitlisted at, multiple drafts, had my friends who go to the school look over it for me, and gave a specific reasons about why I wanted to go to that school. I genuinely hope to be offered a spot there, but now I'm worried that my LOI won't be taken seriously. To give a little bit of background, I'm from a different city but I happened to complete a masters at that school, and I decided to stay there after graduating. I've volunteered through some of the schools organizations and even took some additional upper level classes at their undergraduate school this past year. Would my LOI be taken seriously considering my decision to remain in the city and remain active with them?

Wasn't all that information about you in your application? (your degree, volunteerism, etc?)

 

[93sindibad]

Wasn't all that information about you in your application? (your degree, volunteerism, etc?)

Not all of it. Most of the things I included in it were new things that I had taken up after sending my initial application and secondary. It was essentially me describing what I had spent the last year doing, how it relates to the school, personal reasons, and making my case for why I would accept an offer if it was made.

It's a little frustrating to learn they're not always taken seriously but I do completely understand why they wouldn't be in the eyes of the admissions committee. I just hope that by writing one I didn't hurt myself

 

[93sindibad]

LOI, like many beliefs by premeds, are mostly myth at the majority of schools. These are not part of the process at most schools. even informally and this expectation that they should be taken into account is a bit much.

Ah okay, yeah I didn't know that prior to sending it in. Thanks for the information. I just hope it doesn't hurt me at this point. Sorry I seem to have brought life back to this topic

 

[safteefirst]

You can hold as many waitlists after 4/30 and can take acceptance from these after 4/30

I understand this but what I don't understand is what deadline is there to "commit" to enroll prior to matriculation, if there is one? Say I am waitlisted at my preferred school, do I never choose the "commit" selection on AMCAS and stay "plan to enroll" or am I going to get my acceptance rescinded because I never selected it sometime after April 30th? I'm confused.

I tried asking admissions at my accepted school and they didn't give me a concrete date I have to withdraw from other waitlists and select "commit". I must be missing something here.

 

[lalalallala]

I understand this but what I don't understand is what deadline is there to "commit" to enroll prior to matriculation, if there is one? Say I am waitlisted at my preferred school, do I never choose the "commit" selection on AMCAS and stay "plan to enroll" or am I going to get my acceptance rescinded because I never selected it sometime after April 30th? I'm confused.

I tried asking admissions at my accepted school and they didn't give me a concrete date I have to withdraw from other waitlists and select "commit". I must be missing something here.

By april 30 you need to have selected (plan to enroll) which one school you are intending to enroll at. There are two options: first is plan to enroll and the second is commit to enroll. If you select commit then you are saying you will decline all other waitlist spots and you are totally done making your choice. You should click plan to enroll at your accepted school (if you click commit to enroll then that would mean you were withdrawing from the #1 choice school's waitlist). Some schools require you to commit to them at a certain point in the process. For many schools it is July for example, other schools don't make you do this and if you were to get into your waitlist school then you could switch to waitlist school up until orientation starts at your current accepted school. To reiterate: some schools let you keep your waitlist spot up until orientation and other schools do not. Your school's rules about when you have to commit are important and what you need to follow.

 

[lalalallala]

to clarify further: when you accepted your acceptance at your current school you agreed to terms. you should read those terms and see what it says about needing to select commit to enroll. if that is still not clear then you should email the dean of admissions, so you don't have the secretary responding who in my experiences have not always known the information, and ask them at what point do i need to select commit to enroll and give up my waitlist spots.

 

[safteefirst]

to clarify further: when you accepted your acceptance at your current school you agreed to terms. you should read those terms and see what it says about needing to select commit to enroll. if that is still not clear then you should email the dean of admissions, so you don't have the secretary responding who in my experiences have not always known the information, and ask them at what point do i need to select commit to enroll and give up my waitlist spots.

Thank you. The secretary does not know, and the terms aren't visible on my application portal so I will have to go higher up to get an answer. Thanks for typing all of that out!

 

[premedalt]

Do you want the last thing added to your old file, which will be the first thing that I will see when I look it over, be a poorly written, desperate plea for acceptance?

Didn't we already have this conversation?