Extra Activities in Army ?

[TrojanMan48]

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I was just curious as to whether the Army offered any neat or unusual billets for docs such as maybe Airborne or Air Assault School, Dive Officer, etc. I know the Navy offers GMO billets for Dive Officers and I've heard there is also a billet to serve with the SEALs. Any neat things as such in the Army? Even programs like Wilderness Survival and Medicine can be included.

 

[stop_lossed_doc]

special ops (like the 160th) have their own flight docs and GMOs...

 

[RichL025]

I was just curious as to whether the Army offered any neat or unusual billets for docs such as maybe Airborne or Air Assault School, Dive Officer, etc. I know the Navy offers GMO billets for Dive Officers and I've heard there is also a billet to serve with the SEALs. Any neat things as such in the Army? Even programs like Wilderness Survival and Medicine can be included.

Absolutely.

Airborne school is fairly common - the 82nd Airborne is (at it's heart) a light infantry division that needs a full complement of docs. And if they jump, you gotta, also. There's also a separate airborne brigade (173rd ?) at Vincenza, Italy.

In addition, there are 3 ranger battalions, 5 special forces groups (active duty) and many other positions that demand airborne qualified docs.

I know of at least one SF doc who attended the Q course (after passing selection) and the current thought is to allow more of them to do so (this could change at any time, of course).

If assigned to a ranger unit, ranger school is a very real possibility - and possibly with other units also (although the regs are a little hazy on that - current rules require a soldier to be "combat arms" before attending ranger school)

DMOs are needed both in the SOF community, and with the army's hardhat divers also. You can either attend the navy DMO school & get a hardhat dive qualification, or, under some circumstances (not sure exactly what) you could attend the army's combat diver qualification course (Key West, FL) and then go the the DMO "short course".

Don't get me wrong, as a doc, you're not going to be out patrolling or doing HALO infils, or sneaking up on a sentry with a knife in your teeth, but as far as varied & interesting training goes, the army definitly has it.

 

[TrojanMan48]

What would be different for an SF or Ranger doc be different than say you regular infantry GMO or hell even a regular old Army Doc in a hospital?

I suppose once you passed selection and attended Q for SF, you would resume your duties as a doc attached to a SF group, correct? I'd hate to go through all of medical school and end up a ground pounder when I could of just joined up for that!


The whole Ranger and SF thing sounds really interesting though! Thanks for the info.

 

[USSFPA]

If assigned to a ranger unit, ranger school is a very real possibility - and possibly with other units also (although the regs are a little hazy on that - current rules require a soldier to be "combat arms" before attending ranger school)

You no longer have to be combat arms to attend RANGER school.

The rest is right on.

THere have been 2 docs that I knew of who have attended the Q course under the auspices of the 18A (Special Forces Officer) program.
Their rationale was that they were assigned to the Group as the GP SGN and "needed to understand fully what the operaters went through". This also involved quite a bit of leeway and laxity from both the medical corps and the Special Forces COmmand to allow them 6-9 months of training to NOT be working as an operator AND have someone else pulling their duties as a Doc.

PA

 

[RichL025]

I suppose once you passed selection and attended Q for SF, you would resume your duties as a doc attached to a SF group, correct? I'd hate to go through all of medical school and end up a ground pounder when I could of just joined up for that!

Absolutely right. Despite whatever high-speed training you may or may not receive, atthe end of the day, your primary mission is to take care of ths soldiers in that unit, not to run around and pretend you're an infantryman. You are a doc foremost, and a grunt distinctly second.

 

[texdrake]

Absolutely right. Despite whatever high-speed training you may or may not receive, atthe end of the day, your primary mission is to take care of ths soldiers in that unit, not to run around and pretend you're an infantryman. You are a doc foremost, and a grunt distinctly second.

I am fully looking forward to getting airborne certified after residency...

 

[mrpankration]

If one wants to go SF or Ranger as a doc, do they have to make special arrangements before signing up?

 

[RichL025]

If one wants to go SF or Ranger as a doc, do they have to make special arrangements before signing up?

No, and none are possible. Any health care recruiter who says otherwise is fibbing 😉

If you're really interested, keep your mind on your studies, and set out to be the best doc possible. Trust me, elite units would rather have a pencil-necked geek who's a great doc, than a mediocre doc who's got neat stuff on his uniform.

To do operational medicine in general, it helps to be FP, EM or (opinions vary on this) IM. That's more a guideline than a solid rule, however, I've met a dermatologist (minor white lie - I heard of him, I guess would be more accurate) who did operational stuff with one of the SF units. OTOH, if you wind up being a pediatric nephrologist, don't count on getting into the community.

Anyway, I find myself rambling. The time to investigate things like applying for the doc slot in a "high-speed" unit is a year or two before your residency ends. Until then, the best course is to apply yourself to be the best doc you can be.

 

[mrpankration]

Thanks for the insight.

 

[s42brown]

Hey what about a general surgeon getting into the community?

 

[Informer]

Hey what about a general surgeon getting into the community?

For USAF . . .

I've worked down at Hurlburt Field with AFSOC and actually got to fly with the 20th SOS as an MS-III (me and another student were the only med students to have ever flown with them)

At that time, most of the docs deploying were general surgeons and flight docs. As far as getting into the community, I happen to know 2 of the newest AFSOC flight docs, one went to the academy, then USUHS, while the other went to USUHS (they happen to be married btw). Both had done a transitional year.

To become an AFSOC flight doc, you'd need to interview with current AFSOC flight docs (as opposed to requesting through your assignment office)

It's a 3 year tour with the 1st year dedicated soley to AFSOC training. The 20th SOS deployed 9mos last year. Also, as an AFSOC flight doc, you aren't actually assigned with a specific squadron, rather, you are part of the 16th Special Ops Wing and deploy with any squadron in that wing.

 

[roboyce]

A few thoughts from an infantryman...

1. As others have said, my soldiers and I don't really give a crap if you have been to any of these schools. When my ass gets dragged into the BAS or CSH after an IED attack, the last thing in the world I'm going to look for is the tab on your shoulder.

2. As an officer, you will have the ability to attend Airborne School. I can pretty much gurantee you that. If you go to an AASLT unit (light infantry post - Campbell, Drum, Polk, Hawaii, Korea) you will most likely get the opportunity to attend AASLT School.

3. Every officer in RGR RGT is Ranger Qualified. However, I've noticed that alot of the Docs/PAs that fill these slots are guys who are prior service infantry/RGR/SF. Does that mean you won't have a chance? No. But understand the commanders of these units will take a Doc with a CIB and 82nd patch on his right shoulder before they're willing to take a fresh CPT out of MEDDAC. A SF Group Surgeon in SF is filled by an O4. You're going to have to prove you're a competent doc before any of these units take you.

4. I think that if you are interested in following this path, you'll find that there are plenty of opportunities. Alot of mil docs are happy working in the hospital. Those that are willing to "get dirty" will have alot more options.

5. Do you know about the PROFIS system? This is how the army works. Basically, line units (not RGR/SF) have no use for a full time doc and only need them when they go to the field or deploy. On the other hand, the post hospital is always in need to docs. Because of this situation, we get the PROFIS system. Basically, all the docs on post work full time at the hospital, but are assigned to line units (infantry, FA, AR etc). If that unit picks up to deploy then you go with them, otherwise, you're at the hospital. So even if you get yourself assigned to Ft Bragg, you're not going to be out at the range with boys every day. You'll be at the hospital taking care of the dependents and retirees. You'll just be a name on the unit roster until it's time to go. I think PROFIS docs have to do 5 days of "field training" every year...ie 9mm range.

6. Finally, as an officer, especially in medical world, you're going to have alot of opportunities to have people "pull strings" for you to get into some of these schools. Trust me, if you really want them, you can. However, think about this. Every time you attend a school that doesn't really relate to your MOS, you're taking away a slot for one of my soldiers that really does need the training. For me, this is a way to reward my E4/E5/E6's and help train and retain them. There's nothing more frustrating then not being able to get a deserving Infantry NCO to Ranger School because it's filled with support officers. Everyone in the army has a role. Know yours and hone your skills. You will receive more respect from the soldiers (and isn't that what it's all about) for being a great doc than you will for having a bunch of patches on your chest.

Good Luck,
R

 

[dkcase]

I am currently a pre-med and have been talking to an army recruiter about taking an HPSP. I'm considering it, despite how strongly most of the former military docs on this forum warn against it, because I want to do high speed work that can only be done through the military. I would go into Emergency Medicine and this thread suggests that I wouldn't have a problem "getting dirty" since most doctors would rather be safe and comfortable.

Does anybody know what EM doctors do on an average day with an air assault, ranger, or special forces team? Do they train with them, go on missions in a support role with them, etc? Assuming that I prove myself to be a very good doctor in my first year or two of service, how difficult will it be to get involved with these kind of teams?

This truly would be the only reason I'd do the HPSP and if doctors just don't serve in those kind of roles then I'd like to know now.

 

[militarymd]

I am currently a pre-med and have been talking to an army recruiter about taking an HPSP. I'm considering it, despite how strongly most of the former military docs on this forum warn against it, because I want to do high speed work that can only be done through the military. I would go into Emergency Medicine and this thread suggests that I wouldn't have a problem "getting dirty" since most doctors would rather be safe and comfortable.

Does anybody know what EM doctors do on an average day with an air assault, ranger, or special forces team? Do they train with them, go on missions in a support role with them, etc? Assuming that I prove myself to be a very good doctor in my first year or two of service, how difficult will it be to get involved with these kind of teams?

This truly would be the only reason I'd do the HPSP and if doctors just don't serve in those kind of roles then I'd like to know now.

Get a life. Real life isn't JAG.

You want to jump out of airplanes and shoot guns....enlist and go to BUD/S.

You want to be a doctor....be a doctor....not some nitwit who's going to be a liability to any REAL mission.

 

[roboyce]

I am currently a pre-med and have been talking to an army recruiter about taking an HPSP. I'm considering it, despite how strongly most of the former military docs on this forum warn against it, because I want to do high speed work that can only be done through the military. I would go into Emergency Medicine and this thread suggests that I wouldn't have a problem "getting dirty" since most doctors would rather be safe and comfortable.

Does anybody know what EM doctors do on an average day with an air assault, ranger, or special forces team? Do they train with them, go on missions in a support role with them, etc? Assuming that I prove myself to be a very good doctor in my first year or two of service, how difficult will it be to get involved with these kind of teams?

This truly would be the only reason I'd do the HPSP and if doctors just don't serve in those kind of roles then I'd like to know now.

Not to be an ass...but did you even read my post? On a day to day basis, you will be working in the hospital. When the unit in question deploys, then you will join them...and work in the hospital/BAS/CSH in some other country. If you have visions of fast-roping onto a hostile objective, allow me to kill them now. As militarymd said...if this is what you want to do, then enlist for a RIP/SF/ABN contract. Even then, you won't be doing all the "high speed" stuff as much as you might like to think.

 

[tigre]

Hey, for those of you going to Trippler Hawaii, there is a former SF doc. He is a LTC, last time I saw him, in the Psychiatry dept. Very good person to talk too. He is impressive!

 

[dkcase]

I think that if you are interested in following this path, you'll find that there are plenty of opportunities. Alot of mil docs are happy working in the hospital. Those that are willing to "get dirty" will have alot more options.

Basically, line units (not RGR/SF) have no use for a full time doc and only need them when they go to the field or deploy. On the other hand, the post hospital is always in need to docs. Because of this situation, we get the PROFIS system. R

Of course I read your post. So what about working for a Ranger/SF unit? And for those who are willing to "get dirty," what kind of options were you referring to? I'm not trying to be delusional or ignorant about what these kind of doctors do, I'm just trying to get a little more information.

Also, if anybody knows the name or e-mail of a former RGR/SF doctor (like the one at Trippler) then I would really appreciate a PM.

 

[Croooz]

Of course I read your post. So what about working for a Ranger/SF unit? And for those who are willing to "get dirty," what kind of options were you referring to? I'm not trying to be delusional or ignorant about what these kind of doctors do, I'm just trying to get a little more information.

Also, if anybody knows the name or e-mail of a former RGR/SF doctor (like the one at Trippler) then I would really appreciate a PM.

You've gotten all the information in roboyce's post. That is by far the best post on SpecOps on this site....even though it's 99% Army. It's even worse for you if your a physician with the SEAL's. Get it out of your mind you will be doing any of the high speed stuff. You might get to go to a few school or even all of them HOWEVER none of these guys cares about your qualifications. They care about what kind of physician you are not whether or not you can hold our own in the field....because, after all, you wil be in the rear with the gear most of the time anyway. Even if you get to do any of the high speed, low drag stuff you will be babied because you are a delicate flower of very useful medical knowledge......

If joining the military to get wet, shoot & loot, or whatever is what you want then sign up....but forget being a physician. Heck the spec op physicians that I know were spec guys first, then went to medical school, and don't give a hill of beans about the spec op stuff just taking care of their guys and their families.

 

[roboyce]

Of course I read your post. So what about working for a Ranger/SF unit? And for those who are willing to "get dirty," what kind of options were you referring to? I'm not trying to be delusional or ignorant about what these kind of doctors do, I'm just trying to get a little more information.

Also, if anybody knows the name or e-mail of a former RGR/SF doctor (like the one at Trippler) then I would really appreciate a PM.

See Crooz's post...well said.

When I said those that are willing to get dirty have more opportunities, I mean that when it comes time to deploy and the hospital is searching for a few docs to send with the line units, you'll have the chance to jump on it if you want to go. They'll be plenty of docs trying to avoid it like the plague.

As for RGR/SF doctors, these are usually BN/RGT/GRP positions and are largely administrative in responsibility...they are also usually filled by an O4 (MAJ) or above You will be doing very little hands on, especially in the field. The RGRs have their own medics and PAs while the SF community utilizes the 18D series, which is similar to a PA. A soldier will go to his medic before he goes to the doc he doesn't know...even I'm guilty of this.

I get the feeling that you have this view that the military is going to let you be this Delta Force type guy who is also a doctor...forget about it. The military is all about specialization and efficiency. There is no value to the military (and this is what really matters) in training a doctor to be anything but a doctor. Sure, if you need to jump to do your job, then they'll train you do that, but there's about zero chance you'll ever do that in real life. The whole military casualty system is built around immediate treatment by a first responder (medic) with rapid evacuation to a centralized rear area...where you will be.

The doc I work for is ABN and ASSLT qualified...but how many jumps does he have? 5 - the minimum for the badge. How many air assaults does he have? 0. Hell, I'm not even ASSLT qualified, but as an infantry guy I've done multiple air assaults in training and combat...OJT I suppose.

My advice is to graduate from college. Go do OCS (only has 3 year committment). Become an LT. Branch infantry. Go to Ranger School. Go lead soldiers. Get your wild side out. If you like it, stay in, go SF...if not, go back to medical school...the medical schools will eat you up...trust me (assuming you've got the grades/MCAT to get your foot in the door). Plus, this way you limit you committment to the army before you know what you're getting into. And don't worry, three years is nothing. I've been out of school for five and I don't feel like I've missed a beat. I can't wait to go back to back...all nighters don't seem so hard anymore.

 

[dkcase]

As for RGR/SF doctors, these are usually BN/RGT/GRP positions and are largely administrative in responsibility...they are also usually filled by an O4 (MAJ) or above You will be doing very little hands on, especially in the field.

My advice is to graduate from college. Go do OCS (only has 3 year committment). Become an LT. Branch infantry. Go to Ranger School. Go lead soldiers. Get your wild side out. If you like it, stay in, go SF...if not, go back to medical school...the medical schools will eat you up...trust me (assuming you've got the grades/MCAT to get your foot in the door). Plus, this way you limit you committment to the army before you know what you're getting into. And don't worry, three years is nothing.

I really appreciate both of your responses. Having a solely administrative role is exactly what I would not want. I was hoping there was some kind of middle ground where an EM doctor might be able to get somewhat more involved.

I've considered OCS very strongly because it sounds more like what I want to do. And your right, 3 years isn't very long. However, I started talking to guys who put in their 3 years and were not being allowed to go because of the backdoor draft that can technically hold them in for 8 years. 8 years is a long time and when I returned to the civilian sector I'd have almost no applicable job skills.

So now I've graduated from college and have the grades/MCAT score to get into a really good medical school. I was hoping that being an army doctor might be a good compromise. It would allow me to get some of the military training and experience that I'm interested in, I could get out after my 4 years of active duty if I wanted, and upon reentering the civilian world I'd be an emergency medical physician with the opportunity to work pretty much anywhere.

So now you're telling me that, while I'd be able to attend some of the training schools, I would probably never do anything remotely related in the field. I'd be able to deploy a lot but would be working exclusively in a hospital somewhere far away from any kind of conflict. If that's how it is, then I'm glad I asked and thanks for the info. If there is any kind of middle ground where I could be even slightly involved in field work then please let me know.

 

[RichL025]

If "getting dirty" is really what you want to do, for heaven's sake do NOT go to OCS.

As an officer you'll have a year or two max of being an infantry platoon leader before you get promoted up to staff weenie jobs. Hello, desk!

Then, you start to miss your days as a PL, so you go SF, thinking you'll get some time as a SF team leader. After 2+ years of training, you'll get maybe 18 months on a team before.... you get it! Hellooooo, desk!

And don't join the military expecting to gain job skills, either... unless you're looking to be hired by security contractors (and not after a simple 4-year hitch).

If you want to be an action-guy... enlist. If you want to be a doc: go to medical school. Don't expect to be able to combine the two.

 

[backrow]

Although everyone has said there is no way you will get to do the high speed stuff as a doctor there is one program that I know of that will let you be a doctor and be high speed like a SF.

That program is the USAF Pilot-Physician program. I recently met a guy who was in this program and lets just say he was a bad ass. These docs go in as combatants as opposed to geneva convention protected parties. They fly in with the PJ's/SEAL/Ranger etc. I'm not sure how you get in this program, but it is the only one I know of where you actually do the stuff you are looking for as a doc.

 

[militarymd]

Although everyone has said there is no way you will get to do the high speed stuff as a doctor there is one program that I know of that will let you be a doctor and be high speed like a SF.

That program is the USAF Pilot-Physician program. I recently met a guy who was in this program and lets just say he was a bad ass. These docs go in as combatants as opposed to geneva convention protected parties. They fly in with the PJ's/SEAL/Ranger etc. I'm not sure how you get in this program, but it is the only one I know of where you actually do the stuff you are looking for as a doc.

In general, you HAVE to be a pilot first, then go to medical schoo.l

 

[Croatalus_atrox]

Although everyone has said there is no way you will get to do the high speed stuff as a doctor there is one program that I know of that will let you be a doctor and be high speed like a SF.

That program is the USAF Pilot-Physician program. I recently met a guy who was in this program and lets just say he was a bad ass. These docs go in as combatants as opposed to geneva convention protected parties. They fly in with the PJ's/SEAL/Ranger etc. I'm not sure how you get in this program, but it is the only one I know of where you actually do the stuff you are looking for as a doc.

Who told you this? The typical Air Force Pilot-Physician is a former aviator who has attended medical school and served as a flight surgeon for some period of time. Their primary duties are the evaluation of medical factors that may affect aviation mission performance. They get to maintain their flying status and can be utilized in their former duties as an aviator. Therefore they may fly Spec Ops units into the field as transport, but I assure you that they won't be running and gunning with the groundpounders on a mission.

The Pilot-Physician program has nothing to do with Spec Ops. I don't know who this clown was who told you that, but I wouldn't trust anything else he says from now on. He sounds like one of those guys who was a desk jockey for his entire military career but becomes Rambo when he talks about it to anyone else.

 

[Croooz]

dkcase,
I hear what you're saying loud & clear. Who have a choice right now....medicine, possible specops operator, or anything else. If you would like to be a specoperator the fastest route IF YOU MAKE IT PAST INDOC AND ALL THE SCHOOLS is becoming a PJ. Now conventional wisdom would say to go and become an officer and apply for the Combat Rescue Officer program. I would say that the most direct route would be to enlist with a guaranteed PJ slot. The only guarantee is that you will be allowed to test during boot. IF you pass the test and make it thru indoc you will then go to every high speed, low drag school the military has to offer. Basic airborne, HALO, Army dive, ACLS, ATLS.......a year of all the best training in the military UP FRONT. From there you would be an enlisted PJ and part of the Air Force Special Forces.....not the plane crew but the "down & dirty" variety.

After your 4-6 year stint of being a [insert adjective] you would decide what you want to do. Take the officer route and become a PJ officer=Combat Rescue Officer, apply to medical school (civilian or military), get out and do whatever it is you want to do........

Whatever you do DO NOT join the military under the impression that as a freshly minted physician that you will be doing anything high speed. Like I said you will be trained and have a basic understanding of what your specop guys went thru but that's about it. If it seems as though I'm trying to hammer in a point you're right. I've had friends join up under this false pretense and are miserable. If you want to do the job of the special operators then you have to enlist....because as we know enlisted work for a living.

This path is not guaranteed nor is it recommended if what you want to do is be a physician. If you don't mind putting that desire on hold for a few years while you get this out of your system you are good to go. The chance you take is that you don't make it thru indoc and now have to spend the next 4 years as an enlisted puke with a good GPA and MCAT that might have to retake the prereqs and MCAT......ohh if you do make it on the teams you might have to retake them too so decide wisely.

The specop path is not for the faint of heart, nor is it for those who think it's like the movies. All that special training is for a reason. The jumping and diving is just a means of transportation....shooting for survival.....advanced medical training for the ones you'll save........

I don't envy you. I would hate to have this bug to do this stuff and yet have all the reqs met for medical school....you're at a cross roads. My recommendation........if you're not in shape, physically nor mentally, to handle the rigors of the spec ops community don't bother wasting your time nor more importantly their time.

Happy hunting.... 😎

 

[backrow]

Who told you this? The typical Air Force Pilot-Physician is a former aviator who has attended medical school and served as a flight surgeon for some period of time. Their primary duties are the evaluation of medical factors that may affect aviation mission performance. They get to maintain their flying status and can be utilized in their former duties as an aviator. Therefore they may fly Spec Ops units into the field as transport, but I assure you that they won't be running and gunning with the groundpounders on a mission.

The Pilot-Physician program has nothing to do with Spec Ops. I don't know who this clown was who told you that, but I wouldn't trust anything else he says from now on. He sounds like one of those guys who was a desk jockey for his entire military career but becomes Rambo when he talks about it to anyone else.

I do think you are correct on your first statement. I'm pretty sure this guy was an army pilot prior to going to med school and joining the Air Force.

Your second paragraph though is incorrect, unless this guy is a master at Photoshop and likes to lie in front of distinguished guests while presenting at USUHS. I wish I could remember his name, and I wish you would call him a clown to his face b/c I'd love to see the results. He was a LtCOL in the USAF and had more ribbons for actually doing stuff than I have ever seen on anyone. I think I counted about fourteen or fifteen rows. He had pictures of himself with the president of Afghanistan and several other distinguished VIPs. Definately not blowing smoke, he was the real deal. Maybe this isn't the norm for the pilot-physician program, I just know what this one guy did in the program, and it was pretty impressive.

 

[Croooz]

backrow,
First....ribbons mean what? Some services give out ribbons for graduating boot camp.....and what about pictures with VIP's??? What does that prove. Sounds to me he awarded ribbons to himself......please tell me that you do know you can write yourself up for awards such as ribbons....

Second, you are no doubt confusing programs. I have never met any physician on the teams that went in on any missions. They are used from time to time on extended deployments but going in on missions? Then what would the purpose be of the medics or corpsman? First assist during a cutdown?

Third.....get rid of the notion right now that specops equals all around bad ass. These guys are trained to do a job....sure a job with special equipment and skills but a job with a team. They have as much chance in a street altercation as anyone else....50/50. These are average men with extraordinary discipline and focus not super powers. 🙄 As a corpsman I did my fair share of patching up sailors & Marines who had "lively discussions" about the greatness of SEALs vs Force Recon and you quickly learn that you never know who's a badass by looking at them. Heck if it were that easy the attrition rate at any of the selection courses wouldn't be so bad...all the instructors would have to do is look for the badasses. 🙄

I'm not doubting you met a "bad ass". What I doubt is your understanding of the gentleman's background.

 

[backrow]

backrow,
First....ribbons mean what? Some services give out ribbons for graduating boot camp.....and what about pictures with VIP's??? What does that prove. Sounds to me he awarded ribbons to himself......please tell me that you do know you can write yourself up for awards such as ribbons....

Second, you are no doubt confusing programs. I have never met any physician on the teams that went in on any missions. They are used from time to time on extended deployments but going in on missions? Then what would the purpose be of the medics or corpsman? First assist during a cutdown?

Third.....get rid of the notion right now that specops equals all around bad ass. These guys are trained to do a job....sure a job with special equipment and skills but a job with a team. They have as much chance in a street altercation as anyone else....50/50. These are average men with extraordinary discipline and focus not super powers. 🙄 As a corpsman I did my fair share of patching up sailors & Marines who had "lively discussions" about the greatness of SEALs vs Force Recon and you quickly learn that you never know who's a badass by looking at them. Heck if it were that easy the attrition rate at any of the selection courses wouldn't be so bad...all the instructors would have to do is look for the badasses. 🙄

I'm not doubting you met a "bad ass". What I doubt is your understanding of the gentleman's background.

Yes, I thought twice about writing about ribbons as I know all about the jokes they can be at times. However, I seriously doubt this guy wrote himself up for many of them. Unless this guy has some psychologic pathology then he's the real deal.

Second, there is no doubt as to what program I am speaking of, unless he's some member of something that he couldn't name and called it the Pilot-phsycian program to give it a name. This guy had way too much information about being one of the first on the ground in Afghanistan at the very beginning of the war. The one mission I remember him telling us about was him flying in to help out some specops guys who were being ambushed. I believe one of his units main duties during the early phase was to protect Hamid Karzhai (sorry for the spelling). He went in as a company xo, or tactical officer, not as a physician. As I said originally they go in as combatants.

Third, I agree that specops does not automatically equal bad-ass. I have met way too many SEAL/SF guys who make you do a double take and wonder how the hell they could be one.

 

[Croatalus_atrox]

Second, there is no doubt as to what program I am speaking of, unless he's some member of something that he couldn't name and called it the Pilot-phsycian program to give it a name. This guy had way too much information about being one of the first on the ground in Afghanistan at the very beginning of the war. The one mission I remember him telling us about was him flying in to help out some specops guys who were being ambushed. I believe one of his units main duties during the early phase was to protect Hamid Karzhai (sorry for the spelling). He went in as a company xo, or tactical officer, not as a physician. As I said originally they go in as combatants.

Was the guy you heard named Col Steve Hadley? The general description of the guy you gave seems to match him pretty well. He was a former Army helicopter pilot turned Army ophthomologist and pilot-physician. I know that he was assigned to the Air Force Special Operations Command around the beginning of OEF and was deployed as the 16th Spec Ops Grp commander. He also has a lecture in the Aerospace Medicine Primary Course regarding Special Operations.

However, his situation is extremely unusual for an Air Force physician, and very probably unique. I'd be willing to bet that he previously served as an operator or had command experience when he was in the Army. If he suggested to your class that his career was in any way typical for an Air Force Pilot Physician, then he definitely did your class a disservice. Most pilot-physicians just will not have the necessary skills and experience to effectively lead a special operations unit as combatant personnel. Nearly all of them would be as useless as tits on a boar hog in a ground combat situation. I assure you that his experiences were unique amongst Air Force pilots and physicians and just aren't anywhere near likely to be repeated by even a highly motivated doctor. I also assure you that his status as a pilot-physician had little to do with his selection for that job, because the typical duties of AFPPs are nothing like that. Sometimes a person is in the right place at the right time. I certainly haven't seen anything to suggest in my research of the subject that Pilot-Physicians go through Spec Ops training for the kind of role you described. It just doesn't make any sense.

 

[backrow]

Was the guy you heard named Col Steve Hadley?

I'm not 100% sure, but that name sounds familiar.

Nice quote on being as useless as tits,

I do agree with everyone here though that it is most unlikely that a physician will end up doing something more than simply being a doctor in the back for a specops group. Highly unlikely that you'd be pounding the ground with them. I was merely trying to let the original poster know that there is at least one guy out there doing it, because no one else had provided that insight.

 

[Croatalus_atrox]

I'm not 100% sure, but that name sounds familiar.

I'm nearly certain that it was him that spoke to you folks. There just aren't that many Air Force physicians that have his kind of experiences. He was a West Point grad, Army helo pilot, optho dr, Special Ops commander. Hell, apparently he didn't even mention to you guys that he was an astronaut candidate semi-finalist in the late 80s. Talk about a fairytale career...

I do agree with everyone here though that it is most unlikely that a physician will end up doing something more than simply being a doctor in the back for a specops group. Highly unlikely that you'd be pounding the ground with them. I was merely trying to let the original poster know that there is at least one guy out there doing it, because no one else had provided that insight.

I guess the thing we are trying to get across is that such things aren't anywhere close to guaranteed, even for a hard-charging wannabe high-speed, low-drag, teflon-coated anti-fungal doc. In order to do the kinds of things your speaker did as a physician, you nearly always have to bring significant pre-physician military training to the table. Even the current and former aviators on these forums probably won't get a chance to do that stuff should they go into the Pilot-Physician program because they just don't have the necessary ground combat leadership experience and training. If you're just J.Random HPSP student, your chances are virtually nil. I mean, the guy you spoke of is a West Pointer whose status as a ringknocker gave him opportunities for those special schools long before he ever became a physician. It's probable that most of the guys on these forums asking about such things don't have that advantage.

 

[dkcase]

You have a choice right now....medicine, possible specops operator, or anything else. If you would like to be a specoperator the fastest route IF YOU MAKE IT PAST INDOC AND ALL THE SCHOOLS is becoming a PJ...The only guarantee is that you will be allowed to test during boot.

Whatever you do DO NOT join the military under the impression that as a freshly minted physician that you will be doing anything high speed...I've had friends join up under this false pretense and are miserable.

The chance you take is that you don't make it thru indoc and now have to spend the next 4 years as an enlisted puke with a good GPA and MCAT that might have to retake the prereqs and MCAT......ohh if you do make it on the teams you might have to retake them too so decide wisely.

Croooz, thanks for the input on my situation. I'm completely torn and feeling fairly lost. Giving up medical school (which is almost a sure thing for me at this point) for the chance of being a PJ is hard to imagine. I could get hurt, sick, etc during selection and then I'd be royally screwed. On the other hand, if I abandon that route completely then I'll spend the rest of my life wondering what could have been.

From the posts in this thread it's pretty clear that being an army physician is a poor compromise. I'm hoping there is another program (through the government or otherwise) that will be a better one.

 

[Croooz]

Not much of a chance of there being a program. The best I can tell you is that SWAT teams are adopting a SWAT doc mentality. Basically you would be trained as a SWAT team member and if anyone is injured you are there to treat. www.swatdoctor.com should give 2 POC's that could clarify what they do.

It comes down to making a choice. Getting hurt or any number of things could happen....even death so choose wisely. Nothing ventured nothing gained. If you don't make it into a team there are worse things that could happen than spending 4 years in the enlisted ranks.

It's your choice. Just do me a favor and if you choose not to go the route of specops that you also choose not to become one of these obsessed specops "could have beens". Make your choice, accept it, and move on.