F30 Applying Questions

[staphkills]

Hi All,

I have a few questions regarding the F30 application process.

Would it be possible to start applying for this grant during the first few years of medical school? Would it even be possible to apply for one to apply for an F30 even before starting an md/phd program?

So lets say, if I have a written proposal with some preliminary data from a different lab, would it be possible for me to submit this proposal even though I don't know which lab I will be conducting my PhD? (The proposal and my supposed phd thesis would be very similar).

Sorry if these questions are obvious/naive, I just wasn't able to get much info from the NIH's website.

Thanks!

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[mrsanator]

Here are the relevant sections from the program announcements:

For most of NIH (PA-11-110):

The applicant fellow must have a baccalaureate degree and show evidence of both high academic performance in the sciences and substantial interest in research in areas of high priority to the participating Institutes. In addition when the application is submitted, the applicant must be enrolled in a formally combined MD/PhD (or DO/PhD, DDS/PhD, or AuD/PhD) program, and be supervised by a sponsor for the research doctoral component.

NHLBI has their own PA (PA-11-125)

A candidate must have a baccalaureate degree and show evidence of both high-academic performance in the sciences and substantial interest in research in areas of high priority to the NHLBI. In addition when the application is awarded, the applicant must be enrolled in an accredited combined MD/PhD program at a medical school, accepted in a related scientific PhD program, and be supervised by a funded sponsor conducting research related to the goals of the NHLBI. Applications are generally submitted during the first two years of medical or graduate school, but may be submitted at any stage of predoctoral training provided that at least one year of dissertation-stage research training will remain at the time of application.

So, to you answer your questions, yes, you can submit an F30 during the first few years of medical school. I can't imagine that there would be any problems submitting in August even if school doesn't start for a few more weeks at your institution. I don't think from the guidance in the PAs that you could apply in April (post-acceptance but pre-matriculation), but you certainly could ask a program officer at NIH if you were dying to do it. You definitely could not apply before being accepted to a program.

A bigger issue is whether a very early submission is the best strategy for success. The F30 is a training grant, not a research grant. Having a strong mentor who's listed as your sponsor on the application / develops the training plan, etc. is critically important. So, when you say "even though I don't know which lab I will be conducting my PhD", that to me means you're not ready unless you have a PI at your MD/PhD institution willing to pretend that they are your dissertation lab for the purposes of the application.

Two other things to know:

1. You only get 1 resubmission
2. You're limited to 6 years of NRSA funding (F30, T32, etc) for the whole of your MD/PhD training. These include any years that you're on an institution's MSTP grant.

 

[Fencer]

There is a push to submit F30/31s after completing the MS-2 and during the year of GS-1. Sending an application before the MS-2, I think is misguided and you will use one of your two shots. Reviewers will examine how well you did during medical school, take in the USMLE-I score into consideration.

Although not a lot of preliminary data is needed, it is always comforting to see some produced by the applicant. After all, the applicant should had at least a rotation with the mentor and a semester.

 

[bd4727]

I just submitted one for the August deadline, and I don't see how you could possibly be awarded one without having a lab already. Your PI has to write a 6 page "Sponsor and Co-Sponsor Support" section, detailing your individual training plan in his/her lab, listing examples of other trainees who have done graduate work in that lab, and explain why he/she is a good mentor for this project. According to the review criteria, this is 25% of your priority score.

On a more anecdotal level, I know a few people who have received a F30 after re-submission, where the primary comments on the first try were essentially insufficient preliminary data. So while there is definitely a push to get people these early in their degree, at least anecdotally there needs to be something to base the argument off of (even if it was work done by someone else in the lab).

 

[Vikingwizardguy]

Of the things mentioned above I wanted to reiterate the importance of:

Prelim Data
Your sponsor's 6 page packet
Grades

My application was not that strong by any means and was sort of poorly put together but I'm very likely to get funding because I pushed my prelim data and because my grades are through the roof. Instead of wasting time now on writing any sort of proposal, spend your time getting your grades up there and finding the right lab (the most important thing in your entire MSTP training might I add).

 

[Vikingwizardguy]

I just submitted one for the August deadline, and I don't see how you could possibly be awarded one without having a lab already. Your PI has to write a 6 page "Sponsor and Co-Sponsor Support" section, detailing your individual training plan in his/her lab, listing examples of other trainees who have done graduate work in that lab, and explain why he/she is a good mentor for this project. According to the review criteria, this is 25% of your priority score.

On a more anecdotal level, I know a few people who have received a F30 after re-submission, where the primary comments on the first try were essentially insufficient preliminary data. So while there is definitely a push to get people these early in their degree, at least anecdotally there needs to be something to base the argument off of (even if it was work done by someone else in the lab).

Is this your first submission?

 

[Fencer]

Across the board (multiple NIH institutes), F30 applications have a funding rate of 30%. An application put together poorly (despite excellence in science or applicant) raises questions about "poor mentoring". I am glad that you got a good priority score. I agree with you that effort within the first 1 year of MD/PhD (i.e.: rotations done in the summers prior and after MS-1) should be spent choosing the right lab for the applicant.

 

[bd4727]

Across the board (multiple NIH institutes), F30 applications have a funding rate of 30%. An application put together poorly (despite excellence in science or applicant) raises questions about "poor mentoring". I am glad that you got a good priority score. I agree with you that effort within the first 1 year of MD/PhD (i.e.: rotations done in the summers prior and after MS-1) should be spent choosing the right lab for the applicant.

Actually, it is quite a bit higher than 30%. For the last year with publicly available data (2010), the average funding rate of all institutes that support the F30 is 53%, with a range of 29% (NINDS) to 100% (NIDCR).

The excel spreadsheet with this info can be found at: http://report.nih.gov/success_rates/index.aspx

 

[Fencer]

Actually, it is quite a bit higher than 30%. For the last year with publicly available data (2010), the average funding rate of all institutes that support the F30 is 53%, with a range of 29% (NINDS) to 100% (NIDCR).

The excel spreadsheet with this info can be found at: http://report.nih.gov/success_rates/index.aspx

You are correct as to the link and to the eventual rates for particular F30 applicant (i.e.: revised applications which back then was still 3 times and you are out were counted once in the numerator and denominator) across the different institutes. You are incorrect about the average rate of success.

The success rate includes carryover of the applicant.
See: http://report.nih.gov/UploadDocs/NIH_Success_Rate_Definition.pdf

The number of F30 applicants (as defined by NIH success rate) reviewed were 330 with 132 applicants funded in FY 2010 across the 10 institutes that awarded F30s. That is an eventual success rate of 40%.

However, a given F30 submission has a success rate of 25-30% in a given cycle, that eventually increases to 40%. As you point out, some institutes have less number of applications or greater chance of being awarded, and that is a competitive advantange for some.

As I review NINDS applications, I recall the 30% from the last introductory remarks from study section.

 

[bd4727]

You are correct as to the link and to the eventual rates for particular F30 applicant (i.e.: revised applications which back then was still 3 times and you are out were counted once in the numerator and denominator) across the different institutes. You are incorrect about the average rate of success.

The success rate includes carryover of the applicant.
See: http://report.nih.gov/UploadDocs/NIH_Success_Rate_Definition.pdf

The number of F30 applicants (as defined by NIH success rate) reviewed were 330 with 132 applicants funded in FY 2010 across the 10 institutes that awarded F30s. That is an eventual success rate of 40%.

However, a given F30 submission has a success rate of 25-30% in a given cycle, that eventually increases to 40%. As you point out, some institutes have less number of applications or greater chance of being awarded, and that is a competitive advantange for some.

As I review NINDS applications, I recall the 30% from the last introductory remarks from study section.

Well 40% is still great...

 

[Fencer]

Well 40% is still great...

Way better than R01s...