Facing dismissal need some insight (USMD) it’s actually crazy

[ittybittycomittee]

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Hi everyone.

So I unfortunately dismissed from my program. US MD (not carribean) and I’m really kind of surprised that this is what has come to and I wanted to get a third-party (yalls) opinion on this on how I should approach the situation.

Around December, we take our final exam I end up not passing but passed the retake. Coming back to second semester I got a letter saying that I am on probation for the rest of the semester due to retaking the final.

I come back and meet with the dean there’s like 15 of us and the dean actually ended up saying that we weren’t on probation, but we’re on warning status. two students asked a letter said something different. The dean assured us it was actually warning, not probation.

All right cool. Around a week later, I reach back out to the dean asking for a letter of standing for a research position. SHe responds in that letter. She states that I am in good academic standing and signs on it and it’s on the official school letterhead.

Everything was fine until there was the death of a sibling this year. I came back home, I took some time off and when I came back, I ended up failing a block, which is one of the reasons why I didn’t pass my course. I passed the other four components.

I was under the impression I would be able to remediate that block because the handbook states that you are able to remediate under warning.

The school claimed that I was actually on probation. And that if you don’t pass something on probation, you are dismissed.

I’m sitting there, surprised af. I tried reaching out to the dean but we have like three campuses. She’s not responding to me and the only person that I’m talking to is the main dean on the other campus who I’ve never met in my life. Our meeting is like literally 10 minutes long he did not care to hear what I had to say, and then told me that the letter of standing doesn’t mean anything and it was just a letter of hope and that I should have known.

* it’s also supposed to be noted that I was approved for a research position. I was also approved for leadership roles which the handbook says is only for student students in good academic standing*

yet the school still let me apply. I’m now here, surprised that I’ve spent so much time and money into my career. I have hired attorneys
we’re gonna move in with a demand letter aka lawsuit/LCME violation etc

But given everything, I’ve told y’all I feel like I’m going crazy. Do you guys have any advice for me?

Since we’ve already sent one letter to the school through my attorneys and they’re still not really budging (BS reason the schools lawyer is putting the blame on me for not knowing the handbook even tho i was given a letter of good standing from the dean)

do you think it’s worth it reaching out to my deans again and asking them for a meeting before I escalate things further?

 

[Angler]

I come back and meet with the dean there’s like 15 of us and the dean actually ended up saying that we weren’t on probation, but we’re on warning status. two students asked a letter said something different. The dean assured us it was actually warning, not probation.

Hopefully, 14 witnesses are willing and able to get on your side.

Seems like there have been a bunch of these situations described in SDN, where med schools are more adversaries than teachers. More malevolent than benevolent.

 

[operaman]

Yeah that’s a weird one. I think the attorney move was correct in this case as it seems the issue really is one where the school has not followed its own procedure.

A letter of good standing while you’re on academic probation seems odd and seems a reasonable person would conclude you were not on academic probation. That plus if any of the other students will testify to what was said in your meeting and you may have a case.

It will depend heavily on what your handbook says.

 

[Taddy Mason]

The school’s letter saying you WERE placed on probation is going to carry the weight in this situation over what is essentially hearsay behind closed doors. It’s written record of your academic status whether you agree with it or not. The letter stating you were in good academic standing for a research position is minor/trivial compared to an official probation letter.

Edit - sorry if that comes across as harsh but I was on the academic performance committee in med school and involved in the dismissal process of one of co-residents during residency, so am coming from that perspective.

 

[ittybittycomittee]

The school’s letter saying you WERE placed on probation is going to carry the weight in this situation over what is essentially hearsay behind closed doors. It’s written record of your academic status whether you agree with it or not. The letter stating you were in good academic standing is minor/trivial compared to an official probation letter.

I understand, but when I reached out and asked for a letter of standing, and the dean told me, I’m in good academic standing that itself is a contradiction

If we’re going off the handbook, the handbook, explicitly states student on academic warning or academic probation are not in good standing. And if the dean is saying that, which of the two is it is it that they don’t keep accurate records of student students which is a violation. Or is it that they misled me?

It’s definitely a weird situation idk

 

[Taddy Mason]

I understand, but when I reached out and asked for a letter of standing, and the dean told me, I’m in good academic standing that itself is a contradiction

If we’re going off the handbook, the handbook, explicitly states student on academic warning or academic probation are not in good standing. And if the dean is saying that, which of the two is it is it that they don’t keep accurate records of student students which is a violation. Or is it that they misled me?

It’s definitely a weird situation idk

See the edit to my initial post. Again, the official letter of probation is going to carry weight over a letter for a research position. The school has a paper trail that’s not in your favor. Also, how does the handbook define “academic warning” v. “academic probation”? The former is a first for me.

 

[Med Ed]

I was under the impression I would be able to remediate that block because the handbook states that you are able to remediate under warning.

The school claimed that I was actually on probation. And that if you don’t pass something on probation, you are dismissed.

I also want to know how the school differentiates warning from probation. This should be laid out in the handbook, and your initial failure from "around December" should only fit the criteria for one of them.

 

[thumbz]

I rarely think suing your school is a good idea but here I fully support it. Not a lawyer - but I would assume your lawyer would depose said Dean and ask them under oath whether they told you you were on warning or probation. Assuming they don't lie, it should introduce enough evidence (IMHO) to get you another chance.

I would anticipate said Dean isn't getting back to you right now as they realize they messed up.

 

[Ho0v-man]

Seems legit to sue. This is one of the first dismissal stories I’ve read on here that sounds like the school is 100% in the wrong.

 

[deleted610572]

I’m sorry for your loss

As far as med school goes, just cut your losses if I were you. No need to spend all that more money on tuition, lawyers etc. if best case scenario is matching FM/community IM and being a PCP who will be replaced by midlevels and AI. The juice isn’t worth the squeeze

There is many things that are making the juice not worth the squeeze but AI taking over PCP (but not other non-procedural specialties) is magical thinking. AI scribe capabilities are finally making their job reasonable to do if anything with the help of the documentation alone.

 

[ittybittycomittee]

Seems legit to sue. This is one of the first dismissal stories I’ve read on here that sounds like the school is 100% in the wrong.

Yeah, the whole situation is really weird. Because it’s documented with the documents I’ve been given by the school conflict with one another

It’s kind of a tough situation, but with that being said, I do feel like I have a chance. Do you think I should reach back out to my Dean? Because I also never met with him. I feel like now that they know I have legal counsel. They know I’m serious and might hear me out.

 

[ittybittycomittee]

I rarely think suing your school is a good idea but here I fully support it. Not a lawyer - but I would assume your lawyer would depose said Dean and ask them under oath whether they told you you were on warning or probation. Assuming they don't lie, it should introduce enough evidence (IMHO) to get you another chance.

I would anticipate said Dean isn't getting back to you right now as they realize they messed up.

Yeah, this is actually the last resort because literally no one would talk to me. And even now with legal representation, I feel like the school is misconstruing a lot of things and I wanted to reach back out to both of my deans because hopefully they might take me seriously now you can maybe come to a resolution?

 

[Taddy Mason]

I feel like now that they know I have legal counsel. They know I’m serious and might hear me out.

Think again, they’ll probably be less apt to meet knowing you’re litigious.

 

[deleted610572]

And u don’t think AI will be able to come up with an assessment and plan based on the convo?? That’s just arrogant

lol I use it extensively. It’s wrong 35% of the time. It’s also the fact that a lot humans prefer to be cared for by humans. I have a fair number of patients defer being able to utilize AI scribe.

Now if you’re saying midlevels utilizing AI where they have just enough knowledge to prompt AI to pick up all their knowledge gaps then I think that’s a reasonable assertion in the future. Not currently though.

 

[deleted610572]

Think again, they’ll probably be less apt to meet knowing you’re litigious.

agreed. They will have already spoke to risk and now they are controlling the show

 

[Med Ed]

Yeah, the whole situation is really weird. Because it’s documented with the documents I’ve been given by the school conflict with one another

Can you answer the question posed earlier? Did your initial failure qualify for warning or probation?

 

[wysdoc]

Several off-topic posts about AI replacing doctors have been removed from view.

Please stay on the topic of the OP's original question

 

[thumbz]

Yeah, this is actually the last resort because literally no one would talk to me. And even now with legal representation, I feel like the school is misconstruing a lot of things and I wanted to reach back out to both of my deans because hopefully they might take me seriously now you can maybe come to a resolution?

Literally none of them will speak to you moving forward. Once lawyers are involved everyone shuts up unless their counsel is present. So don't take that as them avoiding you, they've been instructed to only communicate with you through their attorneys.

 

[ittybittycomittee]

Thank u the

Can you answer the question posed earlier? Did your initial failure qualify for warning or probation?

Handbook state = probation means not good academic standing

After the December final exam failure (which i passed the retake) i got a letter saying i was on probation. So i assume it means I was on probation but

We were verbally told (i have 5 witness statements) we are not on probation but warning

I reached out to the dean and he gave me a letter starting i was in good academic standing.

The school also treated me like someone who is on “warning” status as I was approved for leadership roles, and was able to get research

The handbook states that probation students can’t do any of these things

It’s a lot of documentation that contradicts one another

 

[ittybittycomittee]

Literally none of them will speak to you moving forward. Once lawyers are involved everyone shuts up unless their counsel is present. So don't take that as them avoiding you, they've been instructed to only communicate with you through their attorneys.

this was way before I got Attorney. My dean from my campus has not spoken to me since end of May even though I’ve been reaching out to him four times. This goes back to before I got a legal defense team.

I reached out to him at least four times. And because no one was talking to me, and I was getting shuffled around to other deans who I’ve never met in my life and don’t really know my situation. That is why I got an attorney because things were getting shady.

So that’s why I was thinking. Let me reach out to both of my deans one last time because I didn’t get a chance to speak with them and if they’re open, we can come to a resolution and I will drop the legal defense team

But I get it why would they talk to me if they haven’t talked to me before lol

 

[Taddy Mason]

Thank u the

Handbook state = probation means not good academic standing

After the December final exam failure (which i passed the retake) i got a letter saying i was on probation. So i assume it means I was on probation but

We were verbally told (i have 5 witness statements) we are not on probation but warning

I reached out to the dean and he gave me a letter starting i was in good academic standing.

The school also treated me like someone who is on “warning” status as I was approved for leadership roles, and was able to get research

The handbook states that probation students can’t do any of these things

It’s a lot of documentation that contradicts one another

What is the exact verbiage defining “academic probation” and what is the exact verbiage defining “academic warning”? You still haven’t answered that despite multiple people inquiring. Also, in the 2nd post of this thread you said students on “academic warning” are not in good standing and unable to participate in leadership roles and research. Now you’re saying otherwise.

 

[ittybittycomittee]

What is the exact verbiage defining “academic probation” and what is the exact verbiage defining “academic warning”? You still haven’t answered that despite multiple people inquiring.

I’m literally repeating what the handbook says and I’m answering the question because that is the answer that’s given to me:

1. Students on probationary status will receive a letter from the office of the dean. They are no longer on good standing.
2. Failure of a final examination and failure of a retakes constitutes a meeting with the APC for dismissal appeals
3. Students upon passing the full year are placed on good academic standing.
4. Students on probationary status are prohibited from being elected in honor, societies, leadership roles, research positions or representation of the COM.

Academic warning:

1. Students on academic warning for failing a component of a course or for professionalism violations will receive a letter from the dean.
2. Students failing a component of a pre-clinical course on academic warning are allowed remediation during the summer under the discretion of the APC.
3. Students on academic warning are not able to hold leadership positions. Etc just like above


That’s literally what it says on the website if you’re asking me the explicit criteria it’s not there and thats I’ve been trying to find for the past three weeks.

This is why i want to have a meeting WITH THE DEAN OF MY CAMPUS

 

[Taddy Mason]

I’m literally repeating what the handbook says and I’m answering the question because that is the answer that’s given to me:

1. Students on probationary status will receive a letter from the office of the dean. They are no longer on good standing.
2. Failure of a final examination and failure of a retakes constitutes a meeting with the APC for dismissal appeals
3. Students upon passing the full year are placed on good academic standing.
4. Students on probationary status are prohibited from being elected in honor, societies, leadership roles, research positions or representation of the COM.

Academic warning:

1. Students on academic warning for failing a component of a course or for professionalism violations will receive a letter from the dean.
2. Students failing a component of a pre-clinical course on academic warning are allowed remediation during the summer under the discretion of the APC.
3. Students on academic warning are not able to hold leadership positions. Etc just like above


That’s literally what it says on the website if you’re asking me the explicit criteria it’s not there and that’s the **** that I’ve been trying to find for the past three weeks.

Okay. So you received an official letter saying you were on probation. Again, that’s going to trump hearsay of what you claim the Dean said and whether you were on probation or warning the school didn’t follow policy either way with allowing you to participate in research and leadership. Still THE OFFICIAL PROBATION LETTER trumps that. Per what you wrote there is an appeals process before the APC so that’s going to be your best bet and more fruitful than trying to talk with the Deans. Have you looked into that or started the appeal process?

 

[Goro]

Yeah, this is actually the last resort because literally no one would talk to me. And even now with legal representation, I feel like the school is misconstruing a lot of things and I wanted to reach back out to both of my deans because hopefully they might take me seriously now you can maybe come to a resolution?

They're not talking to you due to advice from legal counsel.

You didn't fail a component of a course, you failed another course. That says to me you went right to probation at that point.

If were told that you were on warning, they were mistaken. And that news was given to you in writing.

Very sorry about the loss of your sibling. But why did you take that exam when you were not at you best. Why not take LOA at that point? I ask this because you were an at-risk student at that point.

Very sorry that this is happening to you.

 

[Goro]

In your appeal, you must show the committee a remediation plan to demonstrate that you will have a plan in place that you will not fail any more courses.

If you're lucky, you'll be allowed to repeat the year. In the gap year, fix what's broken and come back stronger.

 

[Med Ed]

1. Students on probationary status will receive a letter from the office of the dean. They are no longer on good standing.
2. Failure of a final examination and failure of a retakes constitutes a meeting with the APC for dismissal appeals

Academic warning:
2. Students failing a component of a pre-clinical course on academic warning are allowed remediation during the summer under the discretion of the APC.

You may be ultimately saved by a lack of clarity on the part of the school, but when I read this it seems like failing a final exam is sufficient cause to be put on probation.

At my institution students who come off of probation/warning are given a letter to that effect, so there is no ambiguity about their status.

I agree with others that you are unlikely to have any sort of meaningful direct communication with the school at this point. While involving legal counsel is sometimes the best course of action, it does tend to have a chilling effect.

 

[Splenda88]

Yeah, the whole situation is really weird. Because it’s documented with the documents I’ve been given by the school conflict with one another

It’s kind of a tough situation, but with that being said, I do feel like I have a chance. Do you think I should reach back out to my Dean? Because I also never met with him. I feel like now that they know I have legal counsel. They know I’m serious and might hear me out.

I would not meet with the dean without your lawyer.

Med schools have gotten harsh lately. I graduated from a US med school in 2018 and remember there were people at my school that failed multiple classes and completed the curriculum in 6 yrs.

 

[Taddy Mason]

I would not meet with the dean without your lawyer.

Med schools have gotten harsh lately. I graduated from a US med school in 2018 and remember there were people at my school that failed multiple classes and completed the curriculum in 6 yrs.

I also graduated in 2018 and OPs school policy as he/she posted it is similar to what my school’s (US MD) was 10 years ago. Out of a class of 78, we had 9 people automatically fail out first year without being eligible for an appeal. However, one was able to join the class below mine due to the school not following school procedures with his/her dismissal, but he/she also was subsequently dismissed due to being unable to pass Step I.

My school changed the policy to 2 block failures first year = automatic dismissal without an appeals hearing just before my class started, but reverted back to the old policy (being able to appeal your dismissal and potentially join the class below) after my class due to the number of automatic dismissals in my class. 1 block failure first year still = academic probation + mandatory study groups and tutoring though.