facing dismissal

[phospho]

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This is definitely school dependent. My school doesn't allow you to repeat first year. If you fail three blocks, you're dismissed. Unfortunately, there are three blocks by December, so a few of my first year classmates were dismissed before Christmas vacation. I don't think that's enough time to adjust to med school personally, but that's the school's policy.

😱

Makes me think that as a premed when I was choosing which med school to attend (I was fortunate in that I had a few acceptances), I should have put more focus on the school's policy. Putting your heart and soul into your education for half a decade to get into medical school, and then getting kicked out after a first semester is just wrong in my opinion.

Instead of looking at geography, financial aid, etc.. when choosing a medical school is important. But after reading this thread, I don't think anything is as important as choosing a school that will not kick you out after 1st semester (or even the first year)...

 

[ShyRem]

I would disagree. I think you should look for a school that will identify those people who are having problems and assist them. You want to avoid schools that leave the student hanging on their own with no help whatsoever. If all you look for is a school that passes you, that's looking for a school with low passing standards. This will NOT be your friend when it comes to the boards.

As a patient, I would hope a medical school would weed out those who truly could not succeed. As a fellow physician and former medical student I would hope the school would help those who could succeed but need a little help along the way.

 

[drizzt3117]

It's harsh for a school to kick someone out who fails all their classes? I mean there has to be some standards, right?

😱

Makes me think that as a premed when I was choosing which med school to attend (I was fortunate in that I had a few acceptances), I should have put more focus on the school's policy. Putting your heart and soul into your education for half a decade to get into medical school, and then getting kicked out after a first semester is just wrong in my opinion.

Instead of looking at geography, financial aid, etc.. when choosing a medical school is important. But after reading this thread, I don't think anything is as important as choosing a school that will not kick you out after 1st semester (or even the first year)...

 

[dozitgetchahi]

What I'm saying is, just because someone managed to get in to med school doesn't necessarily guarantee they are going to do well enough to graduate. An acceptance is not a guaranteed pass to graduate. And sometimes folks just never "adjust". Generally they withdraw/drop out voluntarily, but I do know a few who were dismissed. One I felt bad for as they had other personal reasons for their difficulties - they were since readmitted and have done quite well. Another has been in four different medical schools and has done terribly in all four. And is applying to yet a fifth. Another repeated the same year in med school THREE TIMES.

So how much "adjustment" time is too much? Certainly there has to be a line. But also certainly there should be a program to help students adjust if they are having difficulty and also a way to identify those students early. VERY early to help ensure their success.

There were some students in my graduating class who dropped out after the very first block exam last year. Now to me, that seemed a bit crazy. Why would you get that far down the road to becoming a doctor and then decide to pack it in after the very first test? Granted, that test was hard of course, and of course some people didn't do well at all on it. But to bail at that point in your medical career just seems premature to me. (And we hadn't even started anatomy yet, so it wasn't like these people were having trouble dealing with cadaver dissections or something.)

And I simply can't believe the number of opportunities some of your friends got to get their acts together. Shocking.

 

[slick27]

I don't think they should be dismissed without a second chance.

 

[ShyRem]

But isn't that second chance the ability to remediate up to two or three exams? The school could view the "second chance" as the next exam. If you pass the next exam, you have passed your "second chance" and also have a "second chance" to remediate. So how many second chances should they get? and in what form?

My concern is you get students who are unable to adjust but are allowed to redo an entire year of medical school - these students are now over $100K in debt and haven't even finished one year of medical school yet. If they continue to have problems they're digging themselves a financial hole from which there may be no escape. I know students who are taking 6 or 7 years to finish med school. This is a financial burden which pushes them to private loans and outrageous sums of monies borrowed. It just seems unfair to put that ax over their heads for the sake of too many "second chances". I cringe for their financial future (although it does make me feel immensely better about my own).

 

[EmersonAnne]

Another has been in four different medical schools and has done terribly in all four. And is applying to yet a fifth. Another repeated the same year in med school THREE TIMES.

That's crazy! I'd love to know what med schools admit students who've been dismissed by more than one med school in the past. Surely not in the States?

 

[slick27]

How often do you think med students with good gps's and mcat scores fail out? What do you think caused me to fail?

Why do med students fail?

 

[ShyRem]

That's crazy! I'd love to know what med schools admit students who've been dismissed by more than one med school in the past. Surely not in the States?

Surely in the states. Money talks.

 

[Gabby]

Surely in the states. Money talks.

I'm not calling you a liar, but I have a really hard time believing any U.S. medical school would admit someone who was dismissed not once, not twice, but three or more times from another school. Are you implying they bribed their way in? Or do you mean the school just wanted the tuition money?

 

[ShyRem]

Money talks. And yes, I personally know the individual in question.

 

[slick27]

Was it a DO or MD school? I can't see giving an individual more than two chances. I wouldn't want to try med school more than twice. The cost would be outrageous.

 

[slick27]

What should be my plan of action?

K

 

[slick27]

I was never given the opportunity to be placed in a five year plan they railroaded me out before I even knew what was going on.

I found the independent study program at lecom interesting. It would require little to none lecture time. What I believed to be my weakness. Does anyone have any knowlegde of this program??

http://www.lecom.edu/pros_pathways.php/independent-study-pathway/76/0/1955/7360

I am torn on this one. If someone can't adjust to med school by the end of the first half of the year, what makes one think they will adjust later? If you make them wait and retake first year later, is there any assurance they will adjust by the second half? By second year? I'm not talking about someone who fails one block, does well on the next two, fails the fourth, etc. They clearly CAN perform and have shown they can on some blocks. But someone who fails every block for the first half of the year... what in that scenario has shown the school they have the ability to adjust at all?

What I'm saying is, just because someone managed to get in to med school doesn't necessarily guarantee they are going to do well enough to graduate. An acceptance is not a guaranteed pass to graduate. And sometimes folks just never "adjust". Generally they withdraw/drop out voluntarily, but I do know a few who were dismissed. One I felt bad for as they had other personal reasons for their difficulties - they were since readmitted and have done quite well. Another has been in four different medical schools and has done terribly in all four. And is applying to yet a fifth. Another repeated the same year in med school THREE TIMES.

So how much "adjustment" time is too much? Certainly there has to be a line. But also certainly there should be a program to help students adjust if they are having difficulty and also a way to identify those students early. VERY early to help ensure their success.

 

[Helen Wheels]

I found the independent study program at lecom interesting. It would require little to none lecture time. What I believed to be my weakness. Does anyone have any knowlegde of this program??

http://www.lecom.edu/pros_pathways.php/independent-study-pathway/76/0/1955/7360

Pardon me for venturing from the pre-med boards. I had an admissions interview last month at LECOM and they discussed the different pathways there. The told us in the presentation that PBL was even more focused on independent learning than ISP. This seems counter intuitive because for ISP you don't have to come in to campus every day but that is what they told us. I think perhaps this is because ISP gets a schedule and learning objectives based on the Lecture Discussion pathway. In PBL, we were told, they don't give us a specific list of learning objectives. They did tell us also that they kept close tabs on everyone and there was lots of help available if we were having difficulty.

 

[slick27]

Pardon me for venturing from the pre-med boards. I had an admissions interview last month at LECOM and they discussed the different pathways there. The told us in the presentation that PBL was even more focused on independent learning than ISP. This seems counter intuitive because for ISP you don't have to come in to campus every day but that is what they told us. I think perhaps this is because ISP gets a schedule and learning objectives based on the Lecture Discussion pathway. In PBL, we were told, they don't give us a specific list of learning objectives. They did tell us also that they kept close tabs on everyone and there was lots of help available if we were having difficulty.

I know for sure I don't want to try lecture based classes again. It cleary did not work for me previously. Pbl seems interesting, but I'm not quite sure what to expect with this learning format. I have never been exposed to it before.

 

[slick27]

I had major problems with the lectures in school, I just couldn't hear them no matter how hard I tried. You know, because I never went to class. I did well in school also.

Proof that you don't need to be able to comprehend spoken lecture? Maybe.

Good point. Looking back that is what I should have done. It would have given more study time and avoided my weakness. The only problem is the written transcription of our lecture notes were terrible and were produced to late to utilize.

 

[uclakid]

but I do know a few who were dismissed. One I felt bad for as they had other personal reasons for their difficulties - they were since readmitted and have done quite well. Another has been in four different medical schools and has done terribly in all four. And is applying to yet a fifth. Another repeated the same year in med school THREE TIMES.

So how much "adjustment" time is too much? Certainly there has to be a line. But also certainly there should be a program to help students adjust if they are having difficulty and also a way to identify those students early. VERY early to help ensure their success.

are these people who went to multiple medical schools in the US or are they IMGs?

 

[drfeelgood]

Good point. Looking back that is what I should have done. It would have given more study time and avoided my weakness. The only problem is the written transcription of our lecture notes were terrible and were produced to late to utilize.

😴 This is BS!!! I'm sorry but if you have a Auditory Learning Problem, how will you be able to cope with taking an H + P through an interpretor from an mexican Patient at 4 am after being up since 6 am the day before and you have 4 more people to admit after which you have to round on all 20 people on your service by 730 am.....

A classmate of mine (WesternU 2002) graduated in 5 years because he had a Learning Disablity. Sure he had a DO behind his name, but no internship picked him up because he was considered too much of a liability. No match and 250k debt = very bad thing. Remember Federal school loans will follow you to your grave. They will garnish your social security and your spouse wages if need be.

Sometimes things happen for a reason!!!

 

[slick27]

I think I read some where that the crammers are quickly knocked out of their class with biochem and anatomy. I was a crammer in undergrad, maybe I couldn't handle the shear volume of information. Maybe it was a combination of the both, the volume of info and my ld. I would however like a second chance.

 

[slick27]

😴 This is BS!!! I'm sorry but if you have a Auditory Learning Problem, how will you be able to cope with taking an H + P through an interpretor from an mexican Patient at 4 am after being up since 6 am the day before and you have 4 more people to admit after which you have to round on all 20 people on your service by 730 am.....

A classmate of mine (WesternU 2002) graduated in 5 years because he had a Learning Disablity. Sure he had a DO behind his name, but no internship picked him up because he was considered too much of a liability. No match and 250k debt = very bad thing. Remember Federal school loans will follow you to your grave. They will garnish your social security and your spouse wages if need be.

Sometimes things happen for a reason!!!

I don't think i would have trouble with the above sitaution. I can talk and converse with people. My problem in medical school was I can sit through a whole one hour lecture and not tell you a single thing about what was lectured on. I can hear individual words and individual sentences, but when stringing together a bunch of individual sentences I lose the meaning of what has been said.

 

[drfeelgood]

I don't think i would have trouble with the above sitaution. I can talk and converse with people. My problem in medical school was I can sit through a whole one hour lecture and not tell you a single thing about what was lectured on. I can hear individual words and individual sentences, but when stringing together a bunch of individual sentences I lose the meaning of what has been said.

Oh..ok. Have you considered group studying....and if you studied in a group before, try studying alone. If you studied in a loud bookstore/coffee shop before try a quiet library. One thing that helped me deal with the shear amount of info you must master was to make personal notes on a separate notebook. The day before finals I would only memorize my notes. My notes may not have everything.... But it had enough for me to get mostly B's in School with an occasional A!!!

Best of Luck👍

 

[slick27]

Oh..ok. Have you considered group studying....and if you studied in a group before, try studying alone. If you studied in a loud bookstore/coffee shop before try a quiet library. One thing that helped me deal with the shear amount of info you must master was to make personal notes on a separate notebook. The day before finals I would only memorize my notes. My notes may not have everything.... But it had enough for me to get mostly B's in School with an occasional A!!!

Best of Luck👍

I tried group study and individual study, but when the primary teaching format was lectured based I was not on a level playing field relative to my peers.

 

[Toade]

A classmate of mine (WesternU 2002) graduated in 5 years because he had a Learning Disablity. Sure he had a DO behind his name, but no internship picked him up because he was considered too much of a liability. No match and 250k debt = very bad thing.

That sounds really bad. I also know a current student doing five years with at Western with a learning disability.

Speaking of disabilities, I recall one of the Neuroscience profs at Western saying there was a blind student that used to attend Western U. That student entered Psychiatry.

 

[dermpathdoc]

I tried group study and individual study, but when the primary teaching format was lectured based I was not on a level playing field relative to my peers.

having read this thread let me make one point! unless your learning disablity is documented from before you started medical school ..and by medical educators/physicians...you got no chance on getting support by your school...
ADA helps only those with clear documentation from early years..High school college....before med school of problems with learning.

and when it comes to getting help with test administration thru NBOME or USMLE??? they are even worse...the hoops are miniscule....this is from a person who made it thru school in the 80's with deafness and had NO accomodation whatsoever...ADA doesn't help much unless you got documentation of disability from DAY 1

 

[dermpathdoc]

That sounds really bad. I also know a current student doing five years with at Western with a learning disability.

Speaking of disabilities, I recall one of the Neuroscience profs at Western saying there was a blind student that used to attend Western U. That student entered Psychiatry.

There was also a student at UMDNJ who was legally blind with a nystagmus disorder....she had accomodationd from day 1 at school...she did really weel at school and yes she went into psych also..she would never have recieved accomodations at USMLE or NBOME exams without clear documentation of her problesn from before med school...
those hoops are narrow.

 

[Toade]

If we're saying someone shouldn't be a physician because he/she has trouble processing auditory language, but not denying the blind person from becoming a physician, then isn't that a double standard?

Is auditory processing impairment worse than a visual impairment in the context of patient care?

Couldn't someone with auditory processing impairments work in pathology? There isn't the kind of patient contact (and associated auditory processing) in pathology that's a part of primary care and other fields, right?

 

[DrBowtie]

If we're saying someone shouldn't be a physician because he/she has trouble processing auditory language, but not denying the blind person from becoming a physician, then isn't that a double standard?

Is auditory processing impairment worse than a visual impairment in the context of patient care?

Couldn't someone with auditory processing impairments work in pathology? There isn't the kind of patient contact (and associated auditory processing) in pathology that's a part of primary care and other fields, right?

I think a lot of people call BS on learning disorders to be honest. Maybe harsh, but I don't think they equate it on the same level of disability and hence are far less sympathetic.

 

[slick27]

I think a lot of people call BS on learning disorders to be honest. Maybe harsh, but I don't think they equate it on the same level of disability and hence are far less sympathetic.

you would think if any school would recognize a learning disability it would be a medical school, right?

 

[slick27]

If we had one major exam a month, that would allow me to read the handout three or four times a week every week prior to the exam allowing me to have spaced repetition to learn the material. At my previous school I might have two days to learn two hundred pages of physiology. This is the only reason I say it is important to ask the exam schedule.

Are you serious? You are blaming your failure on your school's exam policy? While I will grant a school's exam schedule may have a minor effect on stress levels and performance, I find it unfathomable that this is the reason for your failure. Second point. Your school is well within its rights to dismiss someone who hasn't figured out how to study after an entire academic year. Assuming you have 18 week semesters and put in 40 hrs a week, you had roughly 1440 hrs to 'figure out' how to study. Sorry you had so many problems in the past year, but it really sounds as if you have taken no ownership of your failure.

 

[dermpathdoc]

I don't think i would have trouble with the above sitaution. I can talk and converse with people. My problem in medical school was I can sit through a whole one hour lecture and not tell you a single thing about what was lectured on. I can hear individual words and individual sentences, but when stringing together a bunch of individual sentences I lose the meaning of what has been said.

How is this different from a person with severe hearing impairment /deafness...
I made it thought med school in the 80's with severe hearing impairment and before ADA and my grades/evals were always good
....now it is not easier but tougher for students with deafness/ severe hearing impairment to get thru school...as the schools add to the admission requirements things such as must be able to hear heart sounds, communicate clearly...etc....
I did go into Pathology( but frankly you would not like to know how places wanted to know how I would communicate with the surgeon in the OR during frozens...it was a job killer in many interviews)...

 

[Cuthbert]

It's harsh for a school to kick someone out who fails all their classes? I mean there has to be some standards, right?

I'd have to agree with this. I'm sorry OP, but there has to be some type of cut off. Unfortunately not everyone is cut out for med school. It sounds harsh, but I don't say it to be mean. You need some honesty right now.

 

[Cuthbert]

I don't think i would have trouble with the above sitaution. I can talk and converse with people. My problem in medical school was I can sit through a whole one hour lecture and not tell you a single thing about what was lectured on. I can hear individual words and individual sentences, but when stringing together a bunch of individual sentences I lose the meaning of what has been said.

If you have issues with this, then I don't think you belong being a doctor. I would not go to, nor would I refer a patient to another physician who has this problem.