Factors when picking a school

[whyrightmeow]

So I am in my first year and there are a few things I wish I would have considered before I made my final decision. These are only my opinion, and I won't be offended if yours varies. I am only posting this because I wish I would have read something like it before I made my decision.

I am at The Ohio State University right now as an out of state student.

Positives:
Can apply for resident tuition next year
Great school, nice facilities
Curriculum includes Professional development - basically a 1 credit course on a variety of topics including stress, time managment, finances, etc
Parking is right outside the building
Parking pass is a hang tag, so carpoolers can share 1 tag between several cars
24 hr access to building
Nice recreational facility/wall climbing
Social worker available 24/7 (for when you finally have that meltdown)

Negatives:
Quarter system (not semesters) - this complicates everything. Plus you don't finish until June.
Can only leave for 3 weeks over the summer - so any externship must be in-state unless it is HIGHLY unusual.
Lockers are tiny; a normal bookbag will not fit into them. It is also very crowded when everyone is trying to get to their locker at the same time. (seems minor, I know, but its the little stresses that are the worst)

Things I wish I would have asked:
Is anatomy lab structured, or do you just get a dog and a book? (Our canine anatomy lab is, in my opinion, poorly structured)
Are tests returned to students, or is it against honor code to write down questions from the test? (At OSU vet school no tests are returned, EVER. This bothers me after every test, since I like to know what I got wrong and what the correct answer was - this may have been a deal-breaker for me)
How much (live) animal interaction is there for first year students?
Do you buy class notes or are they posted online so notes can be taken directly on a laptop? (I was amazed at needing to buy 80% of my notes, when I came from an undergrad school that I never once bought a course pack for)
Is the schedule set, or does it change from day to day? (Our schedule has a main theme, but basically changes a little each day)

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[SkiOtter]

I believe Oklahoma State is in a much cheaper COL area than Midwestern.

Oh 100%. Phoenix area vs a pretty small town of like 50k people

 

[DVMoftheFuture]

Looking and comparing tuition and I am a bit confused here, is the VIN cost map accurate? Or does it grossly overshoot on COA and other expenses? The jumps it makes are big from tuition to COA.

Also, Okstate has a tuition of around 207,000 for all four years which is not too far off of midwestern's 269,000 and yet Okstate is the 6th cheapest. So the 60k makes that huge difference? or the overall "COA is different"? Not sure if I'm complicating things or missing something.

Okstate is the 35th cheapest??? Mizzou is 6th.

COA of attendance is tuition + living expenses for all 4 years. Housing, food, utilities, pets, etc are all wrapped into living expenses. They've estimated about $20,000 a year at Okstate and $30,000 a year at Midwestern in living expenses, which seems reasonable to me. Those will add up to a big chunk of change getting added to your loan balance. With a higher cost of living and a higher tuition, it is reasonable to expect that Midwestern will cost about 90k more than Okstate over 4 years.

 

[shee-p]

Okstate is the 35th cheapest??? Mizzou is 6th.

Oklahoma State sent us an email with a screenshot of the AAVMC's Cost Comparison Tool that stated "[f]or the graduating class of 2018, non-resident students at Oklahoma State University ranked the 6th lowest in the nation for student debt load." I was confused, because the VIN Cost of Education Map says Oklahoma is ranked 35th.

 

[Vet2022-20224]

Okstate is the 35th cheapest??? Mizzou is 6th.

COA of attendance is tuition + living expenses for all 4 years. Housing, food, utilities, pets, etc are all wrapped into living expenses. They've estimated about $20,000 a year at Okstate and $30,000 a year at Midwestern in living expenses, which seems reasonable to me. Those will add up to a big chunk of change getting added to your loan balance. With a higher cost of living and a higher tuition, it is reasonable to expect that Midwestern will cost about 90k more than Okstate over 4 years.

Yes makes sense, thank you.

I was referring to this when I said 6th that’s why I was confused because that other site said 35th.

 

[DVMoftheFuture]

Yes makes sense, thank you.

I was referring to this when I said 6th that’s why I was confused because that other site said 35th.

It appears there is an issue with the AAVMC’s numbers. If you click through, AAVMC has tuition at Okstate at $167,000, when the info posted on Okstate’s own site has tuition at $203,000. The reason for this discrepancy is that the AAVMC data is for the graduating class of 2018. VIN cost of education map indicates that tuition at Okstate goes up about 7% each year so there would be a significant increase to now, for a class that will be graduating 5 years after class of 2018. I would rely on the VIN cost of education map because it is data based on the current incoming class.

 

[WildZoo]

Oklahoma State sent us an email with a screenshot of the AAVMC's Cost Comparison Tool that stated "[f]or the graduating class of 2018, non-resident students at Oklahoma State University ranked the 6th lowest in the nation for student debt load." I was confused, because the VIN Cost of Education Map says Oklahoma is ranked 35th.

In addition to what was said above about changing tuition, also keep in mind debt load is not the same as COA. There may be other reasons why the debt load of that particular class was lower - scholarships, a higher percentage of people with SO's who could cover living expenses, etc etc. Lots of variables there!

 

[Caiter92]

Hello, I have a kind of random question.

I am thinking about waiting to apply to RVC even though I was accepted at a US school, only because I like having the option of practicing internationally fairly easily if I were to go to RVC.

The thing is, I really like the US school that I got accepted to as well! Cost wise, they would be quite similar.

I was just wondering if anyone here has any idea of what is required to practice in Europe for example with an American DVM?

It’s going to be really hard to get a work visa as an American without having some sort of ties to that country (a spouse that’s a citizen, etc). Honestly, going to a US vs UK school isn’t even going to be your biggest hurdle in working internationally.

I know someone who it took over a year to get her visas approved to be able to move to and work in Scotland and she was married to a Scottish citizen.

What two schools are you comparing? Are you looking at total cost of attendance and not just tuition? Plus factoring in the costs of an international move and flights back to the US? I really doubt the cost is completely the same when everything is factored in.

 

[SkiOtter]

Hello, I have a kind of random question.

I am thinking about waiting to apply to RVC even though I was accepted at a US school, only because I like having the option of practicing internationally fairly easily if I were to go to RVC.

The thing is, I really like the US school that I got accepted to as well! Cost wise, they would be quite similar.

I was just wondering if anyone here has any idea of what is required to practice in Europe for example with an American DVM?

Also, if you are already accepted to a US school, are you planning on turning down that seat to reapply in the 2024 cycle???????
If you turn it down and never get accepted again for however many cycles you apply, will you be okay with that? I certainly wouldn’t.

 

[LyraGardenia]

Hello, I have a kind of random question.

I am thinking about waiting to apply to RVC even though I was accepted at a US school, only because I like having the option of practicing internationally fairly easily if I were to go to RVC.

The thing is, I really like the US school that I got accepted to as well! Cost wise, they would be quite similar.

I was just wondering if anyone here has any idea of what is required to practice in Europe for example with an American DVM?

In addition to what Caiter mentioned, there's no guarantee you'd be accepted to RVC, or anywhere else next cycle. In recent years the number of applicants and competitiveness of the applicant pool has only been increasing, I would really think long and hard before turning down a guaranteed acceptance. (Disclaimer, I think reapplying with hopes of getting into your IS is more of a valid reason to consider turning down an OOS acceptance)

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Hello, I have a kind of random question.

I am thinking about waiting to apply to RVC even though I was accepted at a US school, only because I like having the option of practicing internationally fairly easily if I were to go to RVC.

The thing is, I really like the US school that I got accepted to as well! Cost wise, they would be quite similar.

I was just wondering if anyone here has any idea of what is required to practice in Europe for example with an American DVM?

Part of what you need to keep in mind is getting a job after that will pay your student loans so like working internationally say in Mexico vs UK is going to look alot different-a practice in mexico probably not going to be feasible as a new grad. It will really depend where you want to practice as I know many countries you have to be fluent in their native language and take a language skills test before being allowed to practice. Plus you'll have to learn all of their rules and regulations no matter where you go. Also as caiter said not to mention work visas etc. So tldr go to your overall cheaper option and explore your options closer to graduation because international practice is a beast in itself.

 

[prevetkid]

Thank you everyone! I am not a psychopath so no, I am NOT denying my guaranteed seat! I have spoken to my current school about deferring for a year and they said it was allowed, but now I'm even wondering if they'll find out about my second VMCAS application and revoke my seat (I am obviously not going to ask them this).

I could potentially get EU tuition from RVC since I have a European passport and family that lives there (which would literally be like $13,000 a year, but as people said, I would not be guaranteed a seat regardless).

 

[SkiOtter]

I could potentially get EU tuition from RVC since I have a European passport and family that lives there

Contact the school and see if you are even allowed resident tuition. Generally just being a citizen isn’t enough, so email and ask before you go through with all of this and get their answer in WRITING whether you can get resident tuition or not.

Thank you everyone! I am not a psychopath so no, I am NOT denying my guaranteed seat! I have spoken to my current school about deferring for a year and they said it was allowed, but now I'm even wondering if they'll find out about my second VMCAS application and revoke my seat (I am obviously not going to ask them this).

You also have to be willing to take that chance of them finding out you are applying a second cycle and revoking admission. I don’t know if they would, but it’s possible they would since I doubt they’re allowing deferment for something other than medical or gaining residency if it’s penn (afaik they're the only one who lets you defer to gain residency). I also believe people on here have said vmcas has a question that asks whether you have been accepted in a previous cycle or not so you can’t lie about that to RVC, but youll have to have a reason to give them if they ask in your interview why you turned down an acceptance.

 

[LabLuv004]

Thank you everyone! I am not a psychopath so no, I am NOT denying my guaranteed seat! I have spoken to my current school about deferring for a year and they said it was allowed, but now I'm even wondering if they'll find out about my second VMCAS application and revoke my seat (I am obviously not going to ask them this).

I could potentially get EU tuition from RVC since I have a European passport and family that lives there (which would literally be like $13,000 a year, but as people said, I would not be guaranteed a seat regardless).

You have to live in the EU for a while I believe. At least 3-5 years. My housemates have European and one has a UK passport but are both on international fees since they lived in the US before applying. Contact RVC about this specifically because things do change but I wouldn’t count on it as a sure thing. Brexit is also a major component to consider. The UK is kind of a mess right now and everything is up in the air if they leave with no deal.

In any event call the school to find out. They respond to emails to admissions fairly well and with a Skype subscription of credit it’s not expensive to call. Good luck!

 

[SkiOtter]

In any event call the school to find out. They respond to emails to admissions fairly well and with a Skype subscription of credit it’s not expensive to call. Good luck!

I’d personally recommend emailing vs calling so you can get it in writing, OP

 

[haruka]

Hi everyone,
Elkhart a while ago had this amazing table for this. Unfortunately, hosting had to be discontinued but it's still on the wayback machine. Some of the info is out of date, but it's still useful and can give you ideas of what to compare. Or ideas for a table of your own Veterinary School Admissions Information Tables - Towards Those Mountains

 

[WildZoo]

Thought I'd bump this to see if anyone has updates to the pros/cons lists for their schools, as 2024 applicants are starting to make decisions

Factors When Picking A School - Pros & Cons

 

[deleted676737]

Thought I'd bump this to see if anyone has updates to the pros/cons lists for their schools, as 2024 applicants are starting to make decisions

Factors When Picking A School - Pros & Cons

In addition to this (it makes me happy to see people still sharing that document around even two and a half years on ), here is a list of some other resources that might be helpful, both for those deciding on schools and any future applicants:

AAVMC | Admitted Student Statistics - A one-stop tool for finding the average stats of AVMA-accredited vet schools.
VIN Foundation Cost of Education Map - Self-explanatory, really. Recently updated and now includes CoA for the accredited international schools.
Student Debt Center - VIN - Loan repayment simulator; allows you to play with different repayment plans, salary levels, family sizes, etc.
https://www.aavmc.org/assets/site_18/files/vmcas/prereqchart.pdf - AAVMC's summary of prerequisites for all schools.
https://www.aavmc.org/assets/site_18/files/vmcas/geninfo.pdf - AAVMC's general information chart.

 

[sammclark]

In addition to this (it makes me happy to see people still sharing that document around even two and a half years on ), here is a list of some other resources that might be helpful, both for those deciding on schools and any future applicants:

AAVMC | Admitted Student Statistics - A one-stop tool for finding the average stats of AVMA-accredited vet schools.
VIN Foundation Cost of Education Map - Self-explanatory, really. Recently updated and now includes CoA for the accredited international schools.
Student Debt Center - VIN - Loan repayment simulator; allows you to play with different repayment plans, salary levels, family sizes, etc.
https://www.aavmc.org/assets/site_18/files/vmcas/prereqchart.pdf - AAVMC's summary of prerequisites for all schools.
https://www.aavmc.org/assets/site_18/files/vmcas/geninfo.pdf - AAVMC's general information chart.

ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE ANY INFO ON UAF/CSU combined program since there isn't any right now

 

[deleted676737]

ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE ANY INFO ON UAF/CSU combined program since there isn't any right now

Unfortunately, I don’t believe we have any currently active members who are doing the UAF/CSU program. Since the class sizes are so small, it’s not likely you’ll find anyone who can actually contribute.

If you’re wanting some opinions on it, you could consider emailing admissions at CSU and see if they could maybe hook you up with current students or other resources. Or maybe post something on APVMA, since there’s a greater reach there?

 

[deleted676737]

Unfortunately, I don’t believe we have any currently active members who are doing the UAF/CSU program. Since the class sizes are so small, it’s not likely you’ll find anyone who can actually contribute.

If you’re wanting some opinions on it, you could consider emailing admissions at CSU and see if they could maybe hook you up with current students or other resources. Or maybe post something on APVMA, since there’s a greater reach there?

That all said, I recognize that there’s not much information on any of the combined programs in general, so once things here at work calm down a bit, I’ll add specific sections for those programs, too, which will hopefully encourage more people who stumble across the document to share their thoughts.

 

[battie]

ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE ANY INFO ON UAF/CSU combined program since there isn't any right now

I agree with Elkhart that you'll have to contact CSU for contact info for current/past students to get their take. There's only about 100 people who have gone through the program

 

[vetmedhead]

I agree with Elkhart that you'll have to contact CSU for contact info for current/past students to get their take. There's only about 100 people who have gone through the program

I'd actually say it's about half that, they only take 10 students a year to the UAF/CSU program and their first class started in fall of 2015

 

[deleted676737]

I went ahead and added specific sections to the Factors document for the combined programs. I think I've got them all, but feel free to let me know if I missed any or even just throw them on there yourself if you want.

 

[battie]

I'd actually say it's about half that, they only take 10 students a year to the UAF/CSU program and their first class started in fall of 2015

Ah yes. Another example of me unable to do math. Lol

 

[MuskOx14]

ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE ANY INFO ON UAF/CSU combined program since there isn't any right now

Resurrecting my SDN account a few months too late but I went through the UAF/CSU program. Happy to answer any questions.

 

[battie]

Resurrecting my SDN account a few months too late but I went through the UAF/CSU program. Happy to answer any questions.

Would you add your experience to @Elkhart's chart?! I'm low key jealous cause I really wanted to apply as a CO resident, but my then boyfriend was pissy about me moving up to Alaska for two years.

 

[MuskOx14]

Would you add your experience to @Elkhart's chart?!

I word vomited all the things I could think of at the moment. UAF has a lot of good things but Fairbanks is definitely not for everyone!

 

[battie]

@sammclark info has been added for UAF/CSU by @MuskOx14

 

[Meklit Shiferaw]

Hi everyone, I am a 2nd year vet student and I started a Youtube channel about vet school at Université de Montréal in Canada. In this video, share my advices and what I wish I knew before going into vet school. I hope it helps and feel free to subscribe for videos of my internships and more !

 

[HeyJazz]

Has anyone been able to find vet school specific internship/residency matching data?
I know I want to specialize (internal med/oncology or surgery) and was wondering which vet schools have higher matching rates for residencies than others as that might affect my final decision!

 

[finnickthedog]

Has anyone been able to find vet school specific internship/residency matching data?
I know I want to specialize (internal med/oncology or surgery) and was wondering which vet schools have higher matching rates for residencies than others as that might affect my final decision!

You're going to need a rotating internship first for oncology or surgery (and likely at least one specialty internship) so even if the schools have data for how many students pursue and match into residencies down the line, I'm not sure that information is particularly valuable to you in making a decision.

 

[vetmedhead]

You're going to need a rotating internship first for oncology or surgery (and likely at least one specialty internship) so even if the schools have data for how many students pursue and match into residencies down the line, I'm not sure that information is particularly valuable to you in making a decision.

Yeah, if anything the rotating internship itself is more important for residency matching down the line. But it's really difficult to say X school has a better residency matching rate than Y school because so many factors based largely on the individual come into play during the match. Some places care more about certain things than others, as well, so that's also a factor since people with high GPAs/class rank may have better success rates at some places while people with lots of research experience may do well at others. It's much less of a quantitative process than it seems like.

 

[HeyJazz]

You're going to need a rotating internship first for oncology or surgery (and likely at least one specialty internship) so even if the schools have data for how many students pursue and match into residencies down the line, I'm not sure that information is particularly valuable to you in making a decision.

That's true there are multiple factors. I do understand that I have to get an internship first and do well in it, and that from there it highly depends on the references that I get from there among other factors etc. But I would still attribute a certain amount of success to the school itself: Do some schools produce grads who get better internships for example?/Do some schools prepare you better to be a doctor who is more likely to succeed in an internship and get good references? (medical schools have very clear posted matching data for each school with regards to different specialties)

 

[battie]

Do some schools produce grads who get better internships for example?/Do some schools prepare you better to be a doctor who is more likely to succeed in an internship and get good references?

If you can find data on this, I'd love to see it and have never been able to find it. The list of grads who match (within the VIRMP) system is not publically available that I've found. And then there are a huge number of internships that are matched outside the VIRMP (equine world comes to mind strongly).

The general consensus is that none of the schools produce better internship/residency candidates or clinicians. My school is "ranked" pretty low, but we've had quite a few people match into internships inside and outside the VIRMP in my class. 2019 has several people currently in residencies. 2020 placed several people this year in either residencies or specialty internships.

As far as the point of human medicine having that distinction, that's the effect of having 150+ medical schools vs 35, right? There are literally 5 times as many human medicine institutions as veterinary. They can afford to care about that stuff

 

[SkiOtter]

That's true there are multiple factors. I do understand that I have to get an internship first and do well in it, and that from there it highly depends on the references that I get from there among other factors etc. But I would still attribute a certain amount of success to the school itself: Do some schools produce grads who get better internships for example?/Do some schools prepare you better to be a doctor who is more likely to succeed in an internship and get good references? (medical schools have very clear posted matching data for each school with regards to different specialties)

Almost every school has at least a 70% match rate for internships. Even SGU in the Caribbean was 75% match rate this past cycle. In the vet world, Caribbean schools are equivalent to domestic schools, but are looked down upon in the human med field. Every veterinary school will give you a good chance at matching, you just have to get yourself out there and network and make good connections for experience for your CV *and* be able to get good letters of recommendation from them for your VIRMP app. If you want to be hoity toity about it, Illinois had a better internship match rate than UC Davis this past cycle, who in those dumb US news rankings is often “number 1” to Illinois’s current 23 spot. Heck, SGU also had a higher internship match rate than Davis this cycle. It is applicant dependent. No one cares where you go to vet school. No one prepares you better. We all have to take and pass the same licensing exams in the end and every school needs to be preparing their grads well enough to pass that.

 

[HeyJazz]

Almost every school has at least a 70% match rate for internships. Even SGU in the Caribbean was 75% match rate this past cycle. In the vet world, Caribbean schools are equivalent to domestic schools, but are looked down upon in the human med field. Every veterinary school will give you a good chance at matching, you just have to get yourself out there and network and make good connections for experience for your CV *and* be able to get good letters of recommendation from them for your VIRMP app. If you want to be hoity toity about it, Illinois had a better match rate than UC Davis this past cycle, who in those dumb US news rankings is often “number 1” to Illinois’s current 23 spot. Heck, SGU also had a higher match rate than Davis this cycle. It is applicant dependent. No one cares where you go to vet school. No one prepares you better. We all have to take and pass the same licensing exams in the end and every school needs to be preparing their grads well enough to pass that.

Not trying to be hoity toity lol if UC Davis is consistently matching students at lower rates than other schools then I would like to know that so I can take it into account when choosing a school. (Maybe, and this is entirely theoretical, it has to do with how hard it is to be top of your class/lack of enough open research positions??) Isn't that why this page is created in the first place? I do think it would be helpful to keep track of general data like this and make it public so students have all the information before picking a school. On the other hand, I do understand that there is a lot of corruption in the matching system (as in, student networks can sometimes mean more than good grades/research exp and rec letters) therefore, going to a school that has a lot of alumni who matched at certain spots I would want to match at might also affect my decision. Again, notice how rank does not matter to me here, just saying I want that data because specializing/matching process is important to me than other factors.

 

[HeyJazz]

If you can find data on this, I'd love to see it and have never been able to find it. The list of grads who match (within the VIRMP) system is not publically available that I've found. And then there are a huge number of internships that are matched outside the VIRMP (equine world comes to mind strongly).

The general consensus is that none of the schools produce better internship/residency candidates or clinicians. My school is "ranked" pretty low, but we've had quite a few people match into internships inside and outside the VIRMP in my class. 2019 has several people currently in residencies. 2020 placed several people this year in either residencies or specialty internships.

As far as the point of human medicine having that distinction, that's the effect of having 150+ medical schools vs 35, right? There are literally 5 times as many human medicine institutions as veterinary. They can afford to care about that stuff

I guess you're right lol it must be very hard to pick a med school so that data being public is super helpful to med students.

 

[SkiOtter]

Not trying to be hoity toity lol if UC Davis is consistently matching students at lower rates than other schools then I would like to know that so I can take it into account when choosing a school. (Maybe, and this is entirely theoretical, it has to do with how hard it is to be top of your class/lack of enough open research positions??) Isn't that why this page is created in the first place? I do think it would be helpful to keep track of general data like this and make it public so students have all the information before picking a school. On the other hand, I do understand that there is a lot of corruption in the matching system (as in, student networks can sometimes mean more than good grades/research exp and rec letters) therefore, going to a school that has a lot of alumni who matched at certain spots I would want to match at might also affect my decision. Again, notice how rank does not matter to me here, just saying I want that data because specializing/matching process is important to me than other factors.

Davis’s match rate is not that much lower than Illinois. But they also have more applying.
Grades are not everything. Grades do not make you a better vet. Grades make you more book smart but if you have a 4.0 and no common sense or clinical skills you will not get as good of recommendations. That’s why recommendations matter and sometimes matter more than grades. If I was picking people for a program, I'm going to pick the person with stellar recommendations who may have a 3.5 over the person who has mediocre recommendations but has a 3.9. Grades do not always make you a better candidate or a better vet. If I’ve worked with one candidate and know they fit in well for what I’m looking for for my program, I’m also going to pick them over someone who may have slightly better grades, if everything else about them is equal. Programs generally don’t give two ****s about where you went to school. They know all of them have to still pass the same exams.
I mentioned ranks because some people like to think that rank = better school and more prestigious. Which it does not.

 

[battie]

Maybe, and this is entirely theoretical, it has to do with how hard it is to be top of your class/lack of enough open research positions??

Not necessarily. No matter the program, only 25% of the class can be the 25%, right? The curriculums are considered essentially equal as long as they are accredited. So it's just as hard to be top 25% of your class at the #1 school as the #50 school (since there are ~50 AVMA/AAVMC accredited schools). Research *maybe* could be harder to find. But again, depends on what you want to do. A boat load of people in my class did research and there were research positions to spare. Since less than 50% of every class at every school seems to want to get boarded, there's a max of 80 students to compete with for research positions to begin with. At my school, that number drops down to ~60-70 people. At a (relatively) tiny school like Oregon, that drops down to 40-50 people max.

On the other hand, I do understand that there is a lot of corruption in the matching system (as in, student networks can sometimes mean more than good grades/research exp and rec letters) therefore, going to a school that has a lot of alumni who matched at certain spots I would want to match at might also affect my decision

I don't consider this corruption though. It's no different than pre-vets needing a letter of recommendation from a veterinarian to get into vet school. Why should a residency take an individual that has no connections in oncology (for example since that's what I would get boarded in as far as clinical medicine goes), but says they want to be an oncologist? How do they know they want to be an oncologist if they haven't been in the oncology world? From the perspective of those already boarded, why would they attach their name to someone they don't think will succeed in the specialty? Vet med is too small for people to willy nilly endorse students that aren't a good balance book smart and street smart.

To get the letters of recommendation, you network. To get the research experience, you network. To get a good knowledge base and get to know your colleagues in the field, you network.

I guess you're right lol it must be very hard to pick a med school so that data being public is super helpful to med students.

Keep in mind that residencies are *required* for the vast majority of human med positions for MD/DOs, whereas there simply isn't enough money in vet med to justify extending our education another 3-7 years. If internship/residency were required in vet med, then yes, this data would have more of an impact. But since this data doesn't determine our livelihoods per se, it's not a big factor. You technically don't have to be a boarded surgeon to do surgery or be a VECCS boarded clinician to do emergency or critical care.

 

[vetmedhead]

Davis’s match rate is not that much lower than Illinois. But they also have more applying.
Grades are not everything. Grades do not make you a better vet. Grades make you more book smart but if you have a 4.0 and no common sense or clinical skills you will not get as good of recommendations. That’s why recommendations matter and sometimes matter more than grades. If I was picking people for a program, I'm going to pick the person with stellar recommendations who may have a 3.5 over the person who has mediocre recommendations but has a 3.9. Grades do not always make you a better candidate or a better vet. If I’ve worked with one candidate and know they fit in well for what I’m looking for for my program, I’m also going to pick them over someone who may have slightly better grades, if everything else about them is equal. Programs generally don’t give two ****s about where you went to school. They know all of them have to still pass the same exams.
I mentioned ranks because some people like to think that rank = better school and more prestigious. Which it does not.

However I will add that unfortunately many programs do use GPA as an easy "weed out" when ranking applicants. Absolutely not a definitive "you'll never match with this GPA!" though. In fact, one of our professors surveys everyone who did the match each year and I believe everyone who applied who was in the bottom quarter of the class matched for the last several years in a row. But, if you're angling for an academic SA rotating internship, for example, it can make it more difficult to match into your top slots depending on the program. A lot of academic internships don't interview due to volume of applicants so a lot of it ends up being what's in your application and then word of mouth from calling your LOR writers if they can.

Again, not a hard and fast rule, and GPA/rank certainly doesn't change the overall quality of the applicant imo. But something to consider depending on what you're shooting for. Which, again, is largely not school dependent but rather applicant dependent. (barring some schools like UIUC who have a very weird testing system that makes GPAs weird because of the low number of tests that go into it, but this is also well known about that school and probably considered when evaluating applicants from there)

 

[SkiOtter]

However I will add that unfortunately many programs do use GPA as an easy "weed out" when ranking applicants. Absolutely not a definitive "you'll never match with this GPA!" though. In fact, one of our professors surveys everyone who did the match each year and I believe everyone who applied who was in the bottom quarter of the class matched for the last several years in a row. But, if you're angling for an academic SA rotating internship, for example, it can make it more difficult to match into your top slots depending on the program. A lot of academic internships don't interview due to volume of applicants so a lot of it ends up being what's in your application and then word of mouth from calling your LOR writers if they can.

Again, not a hard and fast rule, and GPA/rank certainly doesn't change the overall quality of the applicant imo. But something to consider depending on what you're shooting for. Which, again, is largely not school dependent but rather applicant dependent. (barring some schools like UIUC who have a very weird testing system that makes GPAs weird because of the low number of tests that go into it, but this is also well known about that school and probably considered when evaluating applicants from there)

I was just adding that because OP said that sometimes networking can mean more than grades for applicants. Yes you should strive for higher grades if you want to match, but it’s not the end all be all for matching and networking can be more important sometimes.

 

[deleted1075187]

However I will add that unfortunately many programs do use GPA as an easy "weed out" when ranking applicants. Absolutely not a definitive "you'll never match with this GPA!" though. In fact, one of our professors surveys everyone who did the match each year and I believe everyone who applied who was in the bottom quarter of the class matched for the last several years in a row. But, if you're angling for an academic SA rotating internship, for example, it can make it more difficult to match into your top slots depending on the program. A lot of academic internships don't interview due to volume of applicants so a lot of it ends up being what's in your application and then word of mouth from calling your LOR writers if they can.

Again, not a hard and fast rule, and GPA/rank certainly doesn't change the overall quality of the applicant imo. But something to consider depending on what you're shooting for. Which, again, is largely not school dependent but rather applicant dependent. (barring some schools like UIUC who have a very weird testing system that makes GPAs weird because of the low number of tests that go into it, but this is also well known about that school and probably considered when evaluating applicants from there)

I think this data would be interesting if he followed through to applicants who then applied to residencies after this internship year, not including programs like path/lab that don’t require a rotating internship. its relatively “easy” to get a rotating. There are TONS of programs (VIRMP says 573 from this year). about 1000 people applied for internships, half of which applied to both internships and residencies. Most internship programs (general rotating, not specialty) - take anywhere from 1-30 interns, so there are far more seats than there are applicants. The data of low-ranking students getting an internship doesnt really surprise me.

Will those who matched to an internship in the bottom 25% likely continue on to match to a residency? I wont say its impossible but its unlikely.

 

[cdo96]

I think this data would be interesting if he followed through to applicants who then applied to residencies after this internship year, not including programs like path/lab that don’t require a rotating internship. its relatively “easy” to get a rotating. There are TONS of programs (VIRMP says 573 from this year). about 1000 people applied for internships, half of which applied to both internships and residencies. Most internship programs (general rotating, not specialty) - take anywhere from 1-30 interns, so there are far more seats than there are applicants. The data of low-ranking students getting an internship doesnt really surprise me.

Will those who matched to an internship in the bottom 25% likely continue on to match to a residency? I wont say its impossible but its unlikely.

Ay yo! I’m in the bottom 25% of my class, and I matched to my top internship, and I’m even going straight to an advanced specialty internship. They’ve confirmed that if I want a residency, they’ll do everything in their power to get me one.

Grades are important sure, but where you went to get school isn’t as important. The things you do in vet school is very important. The letters of recommendation you have are extremely important. Some of the top of my class didn’t match to their top choice internship. Some of the top of my class aren’t even going to internships, and that’s okay.

And grades don’t correlate with clinical skills/ trustworthiness as a doctor. There’s somebody who had just about all A’s in didactic years who I wouldn’t trust at all with my patients/ own pets and is not doing well in clinicals. There’s people lower than me who I would trust wholeheartedly with my dog.

Moral of the story: grades/ rank doesn’t indicate where you’ll end up, neither does what school you attend.

 

[deleted1075187]

Ay yo! I’m in the bottom 25% of my class, and I matched to my top internship, and I’m even going straight to an advanced specialty internship. They’ve confirmed that if I want a residency, they’ll do everything in their power to get me one.

Grades are important sure, but where you went to get school isn’t as important. The things you do in vet school is very important. The letters of recommendation you have are extremely important. Some of the top of my class didn’t match to their top choice internship. Some of the top of my class aren’t even going to internships, and that’s okay.

And grades don’t correlate with clinical skills/ trustworthiness as a doctor. There’s somebody who had just about all A’s in didactic years who I wouldn’t trust at all with my patients/ own pets and is not doing well in clinicals. There’s people lower than me who I would trust wholeheartedly with my dog.

Moral of the story: grades/ rank doesn’t indicate where you’ll end up, neither does what school you attend.

hey, congrats!

maybe my previous post wasnt clear. I’m not saying this data needs to be followed so people know where to go for vet school, I dont think that should be a deciding factor for first years. I’m more so curious about the stratification of the class and where they end up after the fact, class rank is class rank, regardless of the school, which is why they ask for it instead of just flat GPA - it gives a relative idea of the students standing precisely because *the specific program they went to doesnt matter*. bottom 25% at Davis is the same as bottom 25% at Ross as far as I’m concerned.

I agree its who you know and your performance/attitude/knowledge on the floor of the specialty you want (IE your large animal therio grade shouldnt hold you back from a residency in small animal ECC), but unfortunately, grades do still matter. I see people doing internship after internship after internship, are lovely to work with, letters from strong people, and still dont match, what else is holding them back? Its not soley grades based, but just like applying for vet school, it can be a weed out number, and just a piece of the puzzle when holistically reviewing candidates. If it truly didn’t matter- we should just have all schools move to P/F for everything.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

If it truly didn’t matter- we should just have all schools move to P/F for everything.

There's actually lots of schools on P/F or moving towards it-mine being one of them and it seems more are moving that way especially with COVID things. Especially if an exam is open note such as many have been with COVID how do you truly assess that person is better than the other person when the average is a 95% with most people missing 0-2 questions? The point of P/F at my school is to meet the minimum bar set to consider your knowledge proficient and encourage a healthier school-life balance. We still have tons of students match every year and eventually go on to residency if they desire. As you acknowledged grades are relative, as is class rank. Just because I'm bottom 25% in one class doesn't mean I'd be bottom 25% if I was at a different school with a different subset of people-though likely because of who I am as a person and vetmed while important for me to understand concepts I do not have the drive and dedication to eat, sleep, breathe, and live vetmed like some of my classmates, however make a class composed of me and my friend group and who knows what the spread would look like.
In reality our top 25% of my class honestly is probably separated by no more than 5% points and the top 10% separated by no more than 1% honestly. Like the top 5 ranked students I can probably guess in my class and "extra" participation points are what separates them. It's ridiculous. Plus for my school your rank resets every year because we add people to our class so your rank doesn't even give you a picture of your whole school career. The minimum to pass courses for our second year was 80% for most classes so imagine trying to get an accurate spread picture of ~135 students within 20% points. So I do believe for the vast majority grades don't ultimately matter.
Having worked with various clinicians especially interns that have problems matching to residency there are usually underlying issues that you may not be attuned to-such as not keeping up on records appropriately. Not saying there's isn't a small subset that grades/rank are affecting them, but TBH all the interns I've worked with that don't match, grades have not been the issue. I'm just not convinced that someone should choose a school or loose sleep based on match rates and grades because ultimately it's a long hard path that is 100% applicant dependent over the school-do your best where you can and create your own opportunities-you will ultimately end up where you're supposed to.

 

[battie]

Two people I know who had to repeat first year (one person at my school and another person at a different school) ended up matching at their number one choice internship. The friend at the other school was also bottom 25% of her class. We'll see what happens in a year. One for sure wants a residency. But if anything would be a black mark, it would be repeating a year. Yet, both these women were successful.

 

[JaynaAli]

I was in the bottom half of my class, matched to a rotating internship, got my first choice path residency (and turned down a couple other offers because path isn’t in the match), and now I’ve been a boarded specialist for almost two years. Did I have to work harder because my grades were on the lower side, yes. But I had stellar experience and networked my butt off (spent externship weeks at the clinic I matched to for internship and where I went for residency, went to conferences and presented, was a pathology lab rat and had some stellar references, etc.). Match rates are fairly steady year after year. There’s fluctuations but most people who want an internship can get one. Maybe not their first choice, but if you’re really willing to do an internship and don’t limit yourself based on geography or other factors it’s usually possible. Residency is harder but that is even more based on your own achievements in that field as an applicant than anything a school could provide. I’m not saying that it would be be interesting statistics, but I think it’s far smarter to go to the cheapest school to minimize your debt (so you’ll have less to pay back when you finally emerge from residency) and just work your butt off finding those unique opportunities that make you stand out. A cool project or experience will raise you above just where the dvm degree came from. Some people may prefer grads from school a or b, but another person may have an aversion to them. I wouldn’t make internship and residency pass rate of a school a big worry in the vet school application process. And who knows if you’ll even want to specialize years down the road...lots of people change their minds.

 

[battie]

Necrobump!!

I have noticed the "Factors When Picking a School" google doc is gone. I have created a new one. If current students could add their perceptions so there's more updated info, that'd be great. Likewise, if you don't want your real identity associated with this, you're welcome to post that information here/message it to me and I will add it.

Factors When Picking A School: Subjective Pros and Cons of Veterinary Schools

Factors When Picking A School: Subjective Pros and Cons of Veterinary Schools The information below is subjective perceptions of veterinary students on various programs. As such, what is a “pro” to one student may be a “con” to another. These subjective qualities can and will change over time...

docs.google.com

 

[ButterflyEffectt]

Necrobump!!

I have noticed the "Factors When Picking a School" google doc is gone. I have created a new one. If current students could add their perceptions so there's more updated info, that'd be great. Likewise, if you don't want your real identity associated with this, you're welcome to post that information here/message it to me and I will add it.

Factors When Picking A School: Subjective Pros and Cons of Veterinary Schools

Factors When Picking A School: Subjective Pros and Cons of Veterinary Schools The information below is subjective perceptions of veterinary students on various programs. As such, what is a “pro” to one student may be a “con” to another. These subjective qualities can and will change over time...

docs.google.com

are these not up to date? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C0iHU_qm4kb8AkT-lnJbW8o3rAhw4X67fG60J4CasWA/edit?usp=sharing

 

[battie]

are these not up to date? https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C0iHU_qm4kb8AkT-lnJbW8o3rAhw4X67fG60J4CasWA/edit?usp=sharing

I was under the impression this was lost to time!!! I couldn't find it anywhere.

Totally ignore me then 😂