Failed CS, US MD with reasonable score- applying surgery and ortho

[Eddie2020]

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I failed step 2 CS. It's very embarassing I know, but I have to move forward. I was just hoping to get feedback on my application and how it looks for applying to a competitive program like orthopedic surgery with a backup in general surgery.

My application looks like this
US MD, step 1 236, good research and extracirricular activities, demonstrated leadership skills, good LOR's, honors in clinical rotations, failed CS first attempt but I'm taking it again soon, have not taken CK but hoping to score very high

I'm wondering if ortho is within reach for me. I'm in a position where I can pursue more research in ortho, or I can focus more research on general surgery. How does getting orthopedic clinical research experience weigh into applying for general surgery? If I also had general surgery research experience as well?

I know I am not an incredibly competitive ortho applicant- but I'm hoping good research can boost my application. Really just wondering whether getting a lot of ortho research would end up hurting me for applying for general surgery. Like would it be too obvious that I am only applying to general surg as a backup and that would be bad? Or do you think general surgery programs understand that they may be backups for people applying to orthopedics?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Also thought on basic science ortho research vs clinical ortho research?

 

[WedgeDawg]

You're probably safest just focusing on general surgery, given what you've said. Ortho is already hard to match into, especially given you are well below their median step 1 and you've failed step 2. Dual applying is, from my understanding, going to make you a less great applicant to both general and ortho, meaning you're more likely going to end up at a worse general program than if you just applied general only.

 

[ACSurgeon]

I failed step 2 CS. It's very embarassing I know, but I have to move forward. I was just hoping to get feedback on my application and how it looks for applying to a competitive program like orthopedic surgery with a backup in general surgery.

My application looks like this
US MD, step 1 236, good research and extracirricular activities, demonstrated leadership skills, good LOR's, honors in clinical rotations, failed CS first attempt but I'm taking it again soon, have not taken CK but hoping to score very high

I'm wondering if ortho is within reach for me. I'm in a position where I can pursue more research in ortho, or I can focus more research on general surgery. How does getting orthopedic clinical research experience weigh into applying for general surgery? If I also had general surgery research experience as well?

I know I am not an incredibly competitive ortho applicant- but I'm hoping good research can boost my application. Really just wondering whether getting a lot of ortho research would end up hurting me for applying for general surgery. Like would it be too obvious that I am only applying to general surg as a backup and that would be bad? Or do you think general surgery programs understand that they may be backups for people applying to orthopedics?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Also thought on basic science ortho research vs clinical ortho research?

Best,
Eddie

General surgery doesn't look very favorably on applicants using general surgery as backup.

 

[cbrons]

Whatd you do to fail CS?

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

 

[Psai]

Whatd you do to fail CS?

Sent from my SM-N910P using SDN mobile

They recently upped their cutoff for failing. So a guaranteed percentage of people fail, it was like 2 now it's like 8 or so

 

[ERDOC555]

They recently upped their cutoff for failing. So a guaranteed percentage of people fail, it was like 2 now it's like 8 or so

Wait, at first I thought you were making a joke that like 2 whole people failed and now it's gone up to 8, but now I can't tell if you mean percents in which case an 8% fail rate seems absurdly high to me.

 

[Umyo]

Wait, at first I thought you were making a joke that like 2 whole people failed and now it's gone up to 8, but now I can't tell if you mean percents in which case an 8% fail rate seems absurdly high to me.

Agreed, an8% fail rate? That's insane.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[sazerac]

Wait, at first I thought you were making a joke that like 2 whole people failed and now it's gone up to 8, but now I can't tell if you mean percents in which case an 8% fail rate seems absurdly high to me.

There was a student-led movement a while ago to eliminate Step 2 CS for American MD students, since the pass rate was so high for students in that category. The USMLE responded by making the pass rate remarkably lower for American MD students.

Problem solved.

 

[Med Ed]

I failed step 2 CS. It's very embarassing I know, but I have to move forward. I was just hoping to get feedback on my application and how it looks for applying to a competitive program like orthopedic surgery with a backup in general surgery.

My application looks like this
US MD, step 1 236, good research and extracirricular activities, demonstrated leadership skills, good LOR's, honors in clinical rotations, failed CS first attempt but I'm taking it again soon, have not taken CK but hoping to score very high

I'm wondering if ortho is within reach for me. I'm in a position where I can pursue more research in ortho, or I can focus more research on general surgery. How does getting orthopedic clinical research experience weigh into applying for general surgery? If I also had general surgery research experience as well?

I know I am not an incredibly competitive ortho applicant- but I'm hoping good research can boost my application. Really just wondering whether getting a lot of ortho research would end up hurting me for applying for general surgery. Like would it be too obvious that I am only applying to general surg as a backup and that would be bad? Or do you think general surgery programs understand that they may be backups for people applying to orthopedics?

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated

Also thought on basic science ortho research vs clinical ortho research?

Best,
Eddie

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your ortho hopes are dead. You will simply get screened out. The sooner you come to terms with that the better.

You can, however, still land a general surgery spot if you play your cards right. Playing your cards right means shaping your application to look like you want to do general surgery, not ortho. If you have a choice, select the research that applies to general surgery. Do at least one general surgery sub-I. Do audition rotations in general surgery. Get on the general surgery train and don't look back.

If you play your cards poorly, and do ortho research, and a bunch of ortho electives, and audition rotations in ortho, then you will broadcast to general surgery PD's that they are the backup plan. This will alienate them and put you at risk of getting nothing good, or even nothing at all, on match day.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow, and there is nothing wrong with going through some denial/anger/bargaining/depression, but we all have to make hard decisions sometimes and live with the consequences. I believe Alexander Graham Bell gave some good advice in this regard:

When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.

Good luck.

 

[ERDOC555]

There was a student-led movement a while ago to eliminate Step 2 CS for American MD students, since the pass rate was so high for students in that category. The USMLE responded by making the pass rate remarkably lower for American MD students.

Problem solved.

Wow, that's probably the most depressing thing I've heard this month.

So was this the final result of the petition to end step 2 CS? Or is there still hope for step 2 CS elimination?

 

[sazerac]

Wow, that's probably the most depressing thing I've heard this month.

So was this the final result of the petition to end step 2 CS? Or is there still hope for step 2 CS elimination?

See question 6

http://www.nbme.org/students/Urban-Legends/index.html

 

[ERDOC555]

See question 6

http://www.nbme.org/students/Urban-Legends/index.html

Well, I guess this just goes to show the naivety of medical students. I had heard probably a half dozen upperclassman mention to us first years that step 2 CS was "probably going away" "had a great chance of being removed" "is currently being challenged by our brave AMA/AMSA members with effective legislation" etc.

Seemed too good to be true :/

 

[SilverCat]

Wow, that's probably the most depressing thing I've heard this month.

So was this the final result of the petition to end step 2 CS? Or is there still hope for step 2 CS elimination?

Do you really think that the NBME is going to give up an exam where they can charge 1300$ per head?

 

[DrBowtie]

There was a student-led movement a while ago to eliminate Step 2 CS for American MD students, since the pass rate was so high for students in that category. The USMLE responded by making the pass rate remarkably lower for American MD students.

Problem solved.

Props to the NBME on this one. Well played idealistic med students, well played.

 

[Psai]

Wait, at first I thought you were making a joke that like 2 whole people failed and now it's gone up to 8, but now I can't tell if you mean percents in which case an 8% fail rate seems absurdly high to me.

I looked at the actual numbers, it was like 2% now it's 5% in 2014, 4% in 2015 with 10% of DOs failing

 

[ERDOC555]

I looked at the actual numbers, it was like 2% now it's 5% in 2014, 4% in 2015 with 10% of DOs failing

Thanks, so still pretty easy to pass for MD, but unfortunately step 2 CS is probably here to stay

 

[cbrons]

See question 6

http://www.nbme.org/students/Urban-Legends/index.html

Those FAQs were written by the recipients of the money you pay to take the test.

Well, I guess this just goes to show the naivety of medical students. I had heard probably a half dozen upperclassman mention to us first years that step 2 CS was "probably going away" "had a great chance of being removed" "is currently being challenged by our brave AMA/AMSA members with effective legislation" etc.

Seemed too good to be true :/

brave... yeah ... thats the word for em. Yep. B R A V E

charge 1300$ per head?

Its actually like $1600 now.

Do you really think that the NBME is going to give up [the Step II CS] exam

Do you think the 2 main presidential candidates are good?
Do you think most obese patients with heart failure and end-stage COPD will stop smoking?
Do you think the world is flat?

 

[Psai]

Thanks, so still pretty easy to pass for MD, but unfortunately step 2 CS is probably here to stay

It's not about how easy it is to pass, it's about shelling out 2k for a test + trip with incredibly dubious benefit for anyone except the test makers.

 

[deleted245139]

I looked at the actual numbers, it was like 2% now it's 5% in 2014, 4% in 2015 with 10% of DOs failing

10% of DOs failing the CS? What DOs are taking the CS

 

[postbacpremed87]

10% of DOs failing the CS? What DOs are taking the CS

Very few DOs take USMLE Step 2 CS..most take COMLEX Level 2 PE. I know a lot of DOs take USMLE Step 2 CK though.

 

[Redpancreas]

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your ortho hopes are dead. You will simply get screened out. The sooner you come to terms with that the better.

You can, however, STILL land a general surgery spot IF you play your cards right. Playing your cards right means shaping your application to look like you want to do general surgery, not ortho. If you have a choice, select the research that applies to general surgery. Do at least one general surgery sub-I. Do audition rotations in general surgery. Get on the general surgery train and don't look back.

If you play your cards poorly, and do ortho research, and a bunch of ortho electives, and audition rotations in ortho, then you will broadcast to general surgery PD's that they are the backup plan. This will alienate them and put you at risk of getting nothing good, or even nothing at all, on match day.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow, and there is nothing wrong with going through some denial/anger/bargaining/depression, but we all have to make hard decisions sometimes and live with the consequences. I believe Alexander Graham Bell gave some good advice in this regard:

When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.

Good luck.

236 and you're describing Gen Surg as a reach? Is this because of USMLE step 1/less research/or a step 2 CS fail?

Everyone else, agree/disagree?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile[

 

[Psai]

10% of DOs failing the CS? What DOs are taking the CS

Why are you asking me? How am I supposed to know why other people do the things they do

 

[deleted245139]

25 to 30 people taking an unnessecary test and hitting 90%. Not bad. I asked because you felt the DO pass rate for that was mandatory to comment on.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Well, I guess this just goes to show the naivety of medical students. I had heard probably a half dozen upperclassman mention to us first years that step 2 CS was "probably going away" "had a great chance of being removed" "is currently being challenged by our brave AMA/AMSA members with effective legislation" etc.

Seemed too good to be true :/

They can always hurt you more. All the rules of The House of God are true.

 

[67552931811]

.

 

[ERDOC555]

Those FAQs were written by the recipients of the money you pay to take the test.


brave... yeah ... thats the word for em. Yep. B R A V E



Its actually like $1600 now.




Do you think the 2 main presidential candidates are good?
Do you think most obese patients with heart failure and end-stage COPD will stop smoking?
Do you think the world is flat?

Brave was their word, not mine. I was one of the few people who didn't sign up for AMSA/AMA. 90% of my class did on the spot, most of which I doubt even understood where their money was going.

 

[atomi]

Requiring students from ACCREDITED US medical schools to take and pass step 2 CS is absolutely ridiculous. It is the system saying that they don't trust their own accrediation process. I.e., that they don't trust the schools they accredit to only graduate clinically competent students. It makes sense to require these students to take step 1 and 2CK as these are not pass/fail exams. But to require a PASS/FAIL exam of clinical competence is simply a total scam. If it's an accredited school, then this should not be required, otherwise the value of the accreditation is totally worthless. Unless the purpose of the exam is for something other than assessing clinical competence ($$$$)

 

[Psai]

25 to 30 people taking an unnessecary test and hitting 90%. Not bad. I asked because you felt the DO pass rate for that was mandatory to comment on.

I can comment on whatever I want. This is a message board and this is America. That's how things work here.

 

[Med Ed]

236 and you're describing Gen Surg as a reach? Is this because of USMLE step 1/less research/or a step 2 CS fail?

I'm not calling it a reach, but it might become one if the OP spends his remaining medical school time pursuing ortho. The CS fail certainly does not help matters, and will narrow one's choices regardless of specialty.

 

[WheezyBaby]

There was a student-led movement a while ago to eliminate Step 2 CS for American MD students, since the pass rate was so high for students in that category. The USMLE responded by making the pass rate remarkably lower for American MD students.

Problem solved.

I believe this was actually in response to a fairly scathing NEJM (I think) article a few years ago, but yea

 

[sliceofbread136]

Ugh this thread is my worst nightmare...

 

[jw3600]

There was a student-led movement a while ago to eliminate Step 2 CS for American MD students, since the pass rate was so high for students in that category. The USMLE responded by making the pass rate remarkably lower for American MD students.

Problem solved.

Just laughed out loud in class.

 

[jw3600]

236 and you're describing Gen Surg as a reach? Is this because of USMLE step 1/less research/or a step 2 CS fail?

Everyone else, agree/disagree?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile[

10 points below ortho average with a step failure?


Edit: MISREAD. DISREGARD

Didn't feel like he described GS a reach. Just that ortho was out and GS would be a better target.

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your ortho hopes are dead. You will simply get screened out. The sooner you come to terms with that the better.

You can, however, still land a general surgery spot if you play your cards right. Playing your cards right means shaping your application to look like you want to do general surgery, not ortho. If you have a choice, select the research that applies to general surgery. Do at least one general surgery sub-I. Do audition rotations in general surgery. Get on the general surgery train and don't look back.

If you play your cards poorly, and do ortho research, and a bunch of ortho electives, and audition rotations in ortho, then you will broadcast to general surgery PD's that they are the backup plan. This will alienate them and put you at risk of getting nothing good, or even nothing at all, on match day.

I know it's a hard pill to swallow, and there is nothing wrong with going through some denial/anger/bargaining/depression, but we all have to make hard decisions sometimes and live with the consequences. I believe Alexander Graham Bell gave some good advice in this regard:

When one door closes, another opens; but we often look so long and so regretfully upon the closed door that we do not see the one which has opened for us.

Good luck.

Completely agree. Ortho is so competitive that unless you're the child of a program director or something, you will go on the bottom of the list even if you do get interviewed. Gensurg is the way to go.

 

[OMS398563]

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