Failed level 2 PE twice, what's next?

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a light unto my osteopath

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Hey guys,
I've been anonymously perusing this board and letting it eat up precious mental real estate for years, but this is this first time posting. In a real bind here.

So, keeping this nonspecific as possible, I'm a fourth year in the Midwest applying for residency. Average-ish stats, beyond the level 2 PE failures.

Class rank: Hovering around the middle
Level 1: upper 500's
Step 1: Mid 230's
Level 2: mid 500's
Step 2: Upper 220's
Level 2 PE: 2x failure

Recently found out about the latest failure, and was absolutely gutted. Obviously, the next course of action is to retake the test and pass. But even if I do retake the test, I'll only have a pending score by the time of the scramble. Will the scramble still be an option for me? Is there anything else I can do?

Thanks for reading, guys. Appreciate any answers I get.
 
Was it brought up at all 11 interviews?

I would be prepared to go anywhere that will take you, particularly because of the score release in April.

Perhaps one of the PD’s on the site can chime in. Personally, my program couldn’t take you until you passed because it’s a requirement for medical school.
 
I am so sorry. This test is a horrible test and it makes me sick that one test can derail four years of hard work. Just so wrong! Good luck to you. Wish someone would challenge this test as it sickens me to think one subjective test can counter successful completion of four years, as well as successful passage of other boards.
Best of luck to you.
 
No, not at all the interviews. The failing scores were after my interviews were completed, so I just emailed a couple and they were fairly unanimous on needing a passing PE for the match.
 
Dr. Death said:
. . . BC if you don't have it then you can't graduate. If you don't graduate you don't get to be a doctor and start residency.
Click to expand...
One of my friends matched without CS and started residency in August after he passed it in his 2nd attempts. I am sure that program won't rank applicants w/o CS anymore...
 
Splenda88 said:
There were a few people who matched IM in my class (2018) without CS (failed or did not have result before ranking). You still have a shot IMO.
Click to expand...

I talked to my school about this.

According to them, in order for me be deemed eligible for the match and SOAP, I need a pending PE before the ROL deadline.
 
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a light unto my osteopath said:
The few I asked said they would not. Thus my dependency on the scramble.
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It is unfortunate that you mentioned it to the programs. It would have been better to say nothing until questioned.

In any case, it is water under the bridge now. From now, say nothing about it unless specifically asked by programs. I would say to not even bother with telling program that they are your number one. You don't want people to remember that they want to check your PE. Only answer any questions if asked directly.

Talk with your school to know whether they will verify you for NRMP or not. The deadline is coming up. Try your absolute best to get that verification. Convince them or beg them to verify you. Not many schools have the policy to not verify unless PE is passed before ROL deadline. My school doesn't. However, if your school does, try to beg them to verify you anyway. You might just squeak in since some programs might not bother checking in.

It will be hard for scramble since you will have to resend your transcript in. This new transcript will have all your failed since it is now a blank slate application. So your best bet is to match and talk to programs later about it. Also, we don't know what your school policy is. If they refused to verify you for match, would they do it for post-match? You have to talk to your school to figure all these steps out right now!

In the meanwhile, do whatever you can do to pass it for your 3rd attempt, take a course or anything. The WVSOM PE prep course comes highly recommended so maybe check it out: PE Prep Course | West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine

Again, do what you must to pass; as most schools, mine included, will dismiss people after the 3rd failure of any level.

I am sorry that this happened to you. It sucks and it is horrible that a thinly-veiled money-grabbing BS of an exam by a monopolistic organization is allowed to derail someone's medical career.
 
Epilepsy365 said:
I talked to my school about this.

According to them, in order for me be deemed eligible for the match and SOAP, I need a pending PE before the ROL deadline.

This means that you need to call the nbome continuously everyday to get an early cancellation date before ROL deadline or you won’t graduate from school and be trapped with a 350K debt without a job via soap.
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I attended an MD school; I guess things are different. We needed only CK for graduation and our school made us eligible for the match once they know we are taking both CS/CK. I got my CS result in January of 2018 and was already eligible for the match before that.
 
Dr. Death said:
. . . BC if you don't have it then you can't graduate. If you don't graduate you don't get to be a doctor and start residency.
Click to expand...

Yes, that is true but the OP doesn't need to remind the programs that the PE is not there or that they failed. It is now water under the bridge but I really really want to kick whoever gives that advice to OP!!! And if the OP did it by themselves, I really want to give OP a big ass-whooping myself.
 
Splenda88 said:
I attended an MD school; I guess things are different. We needed only CK for graduation and our school made us eligible for the match once they know we are taking both CS/CK. I got my CS result in January of 2018 and was already eligible for the match before that.
Click to expand...

My school which is also a DO school surprisingly was helpful in this process. They will verify you for NRMP match as long as the PE release date is before July 1. In their logic, students only need to graduate before July 1st to be eligible for the match, so you only need to show them proof that for your exam date the score will release before July 1st.
 
Lilyhopeless said:
Yes, that is true but the OP doesn't need to remind the programs that the PE is not there or that they failed. It is now water under the bridge but I really really want to kick whoever gives that advice to OP!!! And if the OP did it by themselves, I really want to give OP a big ass-whooping myself.
Click to expand...
I wish people would come to SDN before making mistake like this... There is some trolling in this site, but a lot of great advice are given here.
 
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Splenda88 said:
I wish people would come to SDN before making mistake like this... There is some trolling in this site, but a lot of great advice are given here.
Click to expand...

I sincerely hope that OP is trolling us as otherwise it just plainly sucks! I really do not want to come down on the OP at all but did the OP not check with the Dean's office for advice after the first fail? Wouldn't the OP have to go some remediation after the first fail and be sat down by the Dean to talk of strategy? I meant I can't just imagine a situation where the school or someone or something did not warn the OP beforehand somehow
 
Splenda88 said:
I attended an MD school; I guess things are different. We needed only CK for graduation and our school made us eligible for the match once they know we are taking both CS/CK. I got my CS result in January of 2018 and was already eligible for the match before that.
Click to expand...

Also MD. My school has hard deadlines for both exams and won’t verify without them.
 
This is a copy of the email given to me I found out my failure in late November:

Hi Epilepsy365,

Good news! I have just received this information: The Registrar has confirmed with NRMP that by February 26th the registrar will need to give them the list of students that are eligible to begin residency training by July 1 of the match year (e.g. 07/01/2020). Students who have signed up to take all COMLEX exams by this date but have not yet received a score will be verified as eligible. Only students who we know will not be completing all college mandated requirements by the July 1 deadline will not be verified.

Thank you!
 
OP,

You need to check in with the NBOME every morning at 7 AM Philadelphia time via phone calls, in order for them to remember who you are so you can get a phone call for any last minute cancellation spot.

Keep minimal contact to all programs at this minute. Beg your school to deem you eligible for the match, by doing whatever it is that is required of you at this moment. Pray that some programs don't care about the COMLEX-PE and rank you anyway.

Best of luck to you. I am very sorry about your situation. I was in your shoes once, and I understand your mental frustration and anger at the moment. Regardless, please talk to your loved ones, and remain positive. You will get through this!
 
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Lilyhopeless said:
Yes, that is true but the OP doesn't need to remind the programs that the PE is not there or that they failed. It is now water under the bridge but I really really want to kick whoever gives that advice to OP!!! And if the OP did it by themselves, I really want to give OP a big ass-whooping myself.
Click to expand...

I talked to my school after the first failure and they recommended complete transparency with all the programs I interviewed.
 
a light unto my osteopath said:
I talked to my school after the first failure and they recommended complete transparency with all the programs I interviewed.
Click to expand...
Ugh, your school gave you the shaft for advice. You would have been better off letting it be. Now you have guaranteed whatever programs you contacted will look you up and almost certainly not rank you.

I don’t want you to feel too bad, almost all programs have gone to the ‘must have all steps passed prior to rank’ standard, so you probably didn’t make your chances that much worse. But your school definitely made your life harder.

For future students, don’t draw attention to your own red flags, especially if they happen post interview. Also, take the dang PE/CS by Aug of 4th year at latest, you need to get this done.
 
a light unto my osteopath said:
Hey guys,
I've been anonymously perusing this board and letting it eat up precious mental real estate for years, but this is this first time posting. In a real bind here.

So, keeping this nonspecific as possible, I'm a fourth year in the Midwest applying for residency. Average-ish stats, beyond the level 2 PE failures.

Class rank: Hovering around the middle
Level 1: upper 500's
Step 1: Mid 230's
Level 2: mid 500's
Step 2: Upper 220's
Level 2 PE: 2x failure

Recently found out about the latest failure, and was absolutely gutted. Obviously, the next course of action is to retake the test and pass. But even if I do retake the test, I'll only have a pending score by the time of the scramble. Will the scramble still be an option for me? Is there anything else I can do?

Thanks for reading, guys. Appreciate any answers I get.
Click to expand...
what specialty u applying?
 
How many attempts do you get before you fail out? If it’s three I’d worry more about passing than the soap or matching. You can find a community fm program somewhere tha wi take you in soap but don’t get kicked out. Or a TRI or prelim Or whatever those one year things are called. But if you get dismissed you are done
 
Splenda88 said:
Oh gawd...

People should ignore school administrators; most of them have no idea how residency landscape is out there.
Click to expand...

Or they only care about their reputation. They don't want someone matching, then being unable to graduate/start residency, leaving the program in a bad spot and causing resentment between said program and the school for verifying that student to match. Either way, it sucks for the OP.
 
Mass Effect said:
Or they only care about their reputation. They don't want someone matching, then being unable to graduate/start residency, leaving the program in a bad spot and causing resentment between said program and the school for verifying that student to match. Either way, it sucks for the OP.
Click to expand...

I agree but when 350-400k is on the line, you gotta look out for your own interest. OP still has time to pass CS/PE before residency officially starts. And I suspect he most likely will pass prior to July 1st. Med students should stop being naive in thinking these people have their best interest at heart.

We should not have to spend ~2k (fee + travel expenses) for a stupid exam (CS/PE) that adds nothing to our medical education/training.

The whole system is outdated. The 4th year of med school is a joke for the most part. The whole thing should be a total of 6-yr (3-yr prereqs and 3 yr med school).

The dean of our GME program confirmed the other day what I suspected all along by saying the residency can shave off 1 year from almost every specialty with some restructuring and residents would learn more in their 1st 6 months of attending-hood more than what they learn in their last year of residency. Basically, 8-12 years is good enough to become a physician, but for some reason 3 years are added to physician's training with no real or tangible value


/End rant
 
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a light unto my osteopath said:
I talked to my school after the first failure and they recommended complete transparency with all the programs I interviewed.
Click to expand...

Like others have said, the school has given you the shaft here. It is unfortunate but it what it is now and nothing can change the past anyway. Also, just @BorntobeDO? said, most programs have changed to "must-have PE before ranking" anyway, so you are not hurting yourself much. So, please don't feel bad about it, it is not mine or anyone's intention here.

With that said, you have received many good advice here. As of now, there is not much further we can do to help anymore; we lack the knowledge of what your school policies are. So, please talk to them to know what is the requirement of verification for NRMP. If it is doable, do it. If it is not doable, request for exemption, if possible.

Whatever they tell you and you don't feel that you understand the implication, you can always come back here and we will try to see it through with you.

As well, none of us here can tell you what is your chance in March, it is beyond our control and immaterial anyway to what you need to do right now. I am sorry that it happens this way and I wish you the best of luck!!!
 
I have programs that did not ask me about my COMLEX PE during the interview but now are Emailing me about it because they said they do need a pass PE in order to rank me. There are some programs that did not ask me about COMLEX PE during the interview and did not send me an Email about it. I am not sure if it is because they are not interested to rank me so they do not ask or they might rank people without a passing PE score.

My advisor said the reason now more programs want a passing PE before they can rank you is because they are afraid if they do take you and you did not pass PE and cannot graduate on time to do the residency in July, then the slot is left open again.

Best of luck to you and do not give up! You are already 4 years into medical school and I am sure with more practice for the PE you will pass it on the next attempt. It is also good to try to reflect on what you think you did poorly on so you can set goals to improve. For example, I did not pass due to not doing enough pertinent physical exam so I focused more on it and passed on my second attempt.
 
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White Peace Lily said:
I have programs that did not ask me about my COMLEX PE during the interview but now are Emailing me about it because they said they do need a pass PE in order to rank me. There are some programs that did not ask me about COMLEX PE during the interview and did not send me an Email about it. I am not sure if it is because they are not interested to rank me so they do not ask or they might rank people without a passing PE score.

My advisor said the reason now more programs want a passing PE before they can rank you is because they are afraid if they do take you and you did not pass PE and cannot graduate on time to do the residency in July, then the slot is left open again.

Best of luck to you and do not give up! You are already 4 years into medical school and I am sure with more practice for the PE you will pass it on the next attempt. It is also good to try to reflect on what you think you did poorly on so you can set goals to improve. For example, I did not pass due to not doing enough pertinent physical exam so I focused more on it and passed on my second attempt.
Click to expand...
There is a good # of IM programs that rank people w/o CS/PE... I interviewed at 10 programs and only 2 or 3 asked me about CS and my score came out in late January. People before and after my class of 2018 have matched w/o CS. Heck, one person in my class matched ophtho with ONLY step1... But ophtho is a different match
 
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