Failed pe, should i take cs?

[Medet123]

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I unexpectedly failed my pe, I was shocked - first exam to fail. I have not released it as im waiting to pass first or might wait until after rank etc
Was thinking - would passing the CS and releasing that instead or in addition to pe do me any good and would that possibly offset the PE? Wondering If anyone ever attempted or thought of this?
Thanks!

 

[trs88]

I literally might be the only person who has personal experience with something like this. My situation was similar but not exact. Applied FM only.

I'm a DO student who took Usmle CS first, then two weeks later took the Comlex PE. Before anyone asks, I took the CS because there were some programs that required it from DO students. Yes I know, the correct answer is to not apply to those programs, but I wanted to be more easily compared to MD applicants since I was applying to ACGME only (and I had other issues). So far, during interviews, that comment "easier to compare" has gone over well with the individuals that have interviewed me. But no, no one has told me that I as a DO student who took CS - that it was good thing or bad thing for my application.

Anyway, I found out failed the PE and to this day, I still don't know what I did wrong. Then 2 months later (more actually) I found out that I passed the CS.

My PE score wasn't released until last week (passed) and I got a lot of interviews during that time frame (Sept 15 to last week). However, the day I released my new passing PE score I got an interview from a more competitive program than I had received previously. And no, I didn't send them an "update letter or letter of interest".

Before I can answer your questions. A quick point, I'm 95% sure that programs cannot rank you until you have passed all boards. I am aware that there could be conditional acceptance for residencies I just don't know how common those are, but I do know at the programs I've interviewed at - there have been several that explicitly stated that they could not rank an applicant until they had everything passed.

Now to answer your question, it's going to be a risk vs reward type situation.

How many interviews do you currently have and how many more do you feel comfortable in order to match?
Are you applying AOA or ACGME or Both?
How soon can you schedule a retake PE? What conditions has your school set in order for you to retake it?
Is there even an open CS date available, do you have the funds to travel to take it?
If you take it, will the score be available come rank time?

 

[UnoMas]

nope, retake the PE, pass it, have it in before mid February

DO NOT MESS with the CS, you have very very little to gain from it and a whole lot to lose. What happens if you failed the CS too? Are you going to retake it? Now you have 2 very expensive failures to remediate.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

nope, retake the PE, pass it, have it in before mid February

DO NOT MESS with the CS, you have very very little to gain from it and a whole lot to lose. What happens if you failed the CS too? Are you going to retake it? Now you have 2 very expensive failures to remediate.

Agreed. OP probably already has all the interviews he'll get for this cycle. I would worry about passing PE and releasing until the passing score is up.

 

[W19]

@trs88

Some programs would rank you before you pass your CS, but you are correct that it wont be a lot of programs. And I would not advise someone to go into ranking without having all your passing scores in.

 

[ortnakas]

I believe @trs88's story but it's not really relevant to your case; you need to pass the PE to be eligible to start residency. Passing the CS is good and all but won't help with that. There are more fun ways to lose money than taking an unnecessary exam. Focus on successfully retaking the PE in time for rank list submission. Passing the PE isn't REQUIRED for you to be ranked (there's not an official rule about it) but most programs won't take the risk of ranking somebody who won't be eligible to start July 1 after all.

 

[Jack Package]

I wouldn't. Study the Kauffman videos, retake the PE and don't look back

 

[Medet123]

What was your reason for failing the PE?

Biomechanical/biomedical

 

[samac]

Biomechanical/biomedical

The Kaufman videos were great for this.
Just a couple things that I’ve talked to people about:
Organizing your history is probably one of the most important parts. Did you use a mnemonic?
Did you do OMT on everyone who asked “is there anything you can do today doc?”
At a MINIMUM have 3 differentials?
Perform your physical exams well? Heart 4 posts, lungs 4 in the front, 6 in the back, pertinent system?
And the biggie: Did you document things you didn’t do/ask.

Think about those things, watch the videos, go back and you’ll be fine. Good luck!

 

[Medet123]

Was it OMM or soap note? My school gave us some helpful tips for those.

Omm was low, soap note was good
My school taught us not to do heart and lungs unless its pertanant..i think that's where i went wrong? Only thing can think of...

 

[samac]

Omm, soap note was good
My school taught us not to do heart and lungs unless its pertanant..i think that's where i went wrong?

So were you only doing the pertinent system? No more? Totally wrong.
Heart + Lungs + Pertinent system. For everybody. I threw in neck cause it took 15 seconds and just added a little extra.

 

[Medet123]

The Kaufman videos were great for this.
Just a couple things that I’ve talked to people about:
Organizing your history is probably one of the most important parts. Did you use a mnemonic? Yes opqrst etc
Did you do OMT on everyone who asked “is there anything you can do today doc?” Yes did on 3
At a MINIMUM have 3 differentials? Had at least 5
Perform your physical exams well? Heart 4 posts, lungs 4 in the front, 6 in the back, pertinent system? So would say only did on half or less as school said not to unless its related to their complaint ie trouble breathing , chest pain etc
And the biggie: Did you document things you didn’t do/ask.no

Think about those things, watch the videos, go back and you’ll be fine. Good luck!

 

[Medet123]

So you scored low on both omm and data gathering and got mixed on soap? That’s very interesting esp since some ppl told me that heart and lungs weren’t necessary. I did them on my patients but I don’t know my results yet.

Yes

 

[samac]

So you scored low on both omm and data gathering and got mixed on soap? That’s very interesting esp since some ppl told me that heart and lungs weren’t necessary. I did them on my patients but I don’t know my results yet.

It gives you a breakdown of the reasons as far as omm and data gathering? I didn’t think it did that.
Both if those are broken down for you Kaufman will help a lot in both data gathering and omm.
CODIERS SMASH FM >>>>> opqrsta

Watch Kaufman. He tells you to do heart and lungs on everybody. And you need at least 3 systems as far as I understand you’re fine and they can be any three, but doing heart + lung + pertinent is a way to get to that 3. And in reality you always listen to heart + lungs on your patient, so why wouldn’t you do that for the PE?

 

[Medet123]

It gives you a breakdown of the reasons as far as omm and data gathering? I didn’t think it did that.
Both if those are broken down for you Kaufman will help a lot in both data gathering and omm.
CODIERS SMASH FM >>>>> opqrsta

Watch Kaufman. He tells you to do heart and lungs on everybody. And you need at least 3 systems as far as I understand you’re fine, but doing heart + lung + pertinent is a way to get to that 3, and in reality you always listen to heart + lungs on your patient, so why wouldn’t you do that for the PE?

Agree. My school told us not to unless pertinent but seems that might not be correct

 

[Jack Package]

Agree. My school told us not to unless pertinent but seems that might not be correct

I could see that if you feel that your stethoscope placement is horrible and might cost you points for doing it incorrectly, but otherwise it seems like common sense practice

 

[UnoMas]

Constipation case and she asked for OMT or you just did it unprompted?


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[UnoMas]

Woah that’s rough! From what I read you did the right technique and as long as you explained what you did, I think you are good


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[samac]

Question for anybody who is willing to take the time to answer. I would appreciate it.

I will be getting my scores soon and I know freaking out and asking questions won't change anything, but I just wanted to get some input
Biggest thing on my mind right now are my terrible diagnoses.. Pretty sure I missed 3 diagnoses, and wrote very inaccurate differentials on at least 4 or 5 cases. Example (not an actual case), someone comes in with runny nose and cough. 1.URI 2.asthma 3.pulmonary embolism
These weren't from a real case just an example of how far out my differentials were. I feel like I was just trying to get my notes done quick that I listed whatever came first in my head and did not actually pull supporting evidence from my HPI, etc.
What makes it worse with the above example is that in my HPI person would say they have no history of asthma but I completely ignored that and wrote asthma as a differential just because of the cough or the fact that it was a respiratory complaint. I did this with at least 4 cases

Anybody have any input about the differential portion of the exam or know anybody that did really crappy differentials like me?? I know it's a big portion of the exam.I don't think I actually sat down and thought about how important legit DDX are and not just writing things to get the note done. Really hope it's not my make or break 🙁

I mean those aren’t the best differentials, but it shouldn’t fail you. If they’re totally off the wall, then you might fail. In your example if you were like: 1 ACS 2. Cancer 3. TB then you might fail.
But really, none of us know the scoring system. It’s all magic

 

[2021Doctor]

@trs88

Some programs would rank you before you pass your CS, but you are correct that it wont be a lot of programs. And I would not advise someone to go into ranking without having all your passing scores in.

I strongly agree with above.

P.S. I do not believe the Kaufman videos are a guarantee of passing.