missmd123

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I know everyone says they ask for a friend but I'm ACTUALLY asking for a friend right now haha. She used a fake ID to get into a club last night, cops were right there and the bouncer immediately handed her ID to the cops. She admitted to it being fake, was completely honest with the cops, and they said thanks for being honest, because you were honest you can take a few classes and pay a fine and get this expunged from your record. However, the ticket still says misdemeanor on it so she's freaking out pretty hardcore. Let's say the cops are full of **** and it does become a misdemeanor and is on her record for good, how does this affect her chances at getting into med school? Any advice for her?

Thanks!
 

NotASerialKiller

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If you're willing to use a Fake ID to enter a club, how do I know you won't use a fake ID to perform surgery or access drugs?
Excellent reasoning, every 19 year old kid using a fake ID is likely to eventually risk their job by stealing narcotics and... performing illegal surgeries? I'm not sure what motivation you're envisioning for that one.

To the OP I don't have much expertise on this which is why I didn't answer, but it doesn't sound like something that would destroy her ( your ;) ) chances, especially if expunged. Tell her ( you ;) ) to not tangle with the popo again and she'll ( you'll ;) ) be fine.
 
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missmd123

missmd123

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Excellent reasoning, every 19 year old kid using a fake ID is likely to eventually risk their job by stealing narcotics and... performing illegal surgeries? I'm not sure what motivation you're envisioning for that one.

To the OP I don't have much expertise on this which is why I didn't answer, but it doesn't sound like something that would destroy her ( your ;) ) chances, especially if expunged. Tell her ( you ;) ) to not tangle with the popo again and she'll ( you'll ;) ) be fine.
Hahaha you are too funny. Alright, I'll tell her ;)
 
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md-2020

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I can't honestly imagine that adcoms would auto reject someone for having a fake-ID incident. I'd think that it's common enough to be similarly handled as alcohol violations (which are like, 99% the same thing).

@NotASerialKiller I heard you have a "friend" who was named as a suspect in multiple homicides. Truth?
 
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Excellent reasoning, every 19 year old kid using a fake ID is likely to eventually risk their job by stealing narcotics and... performing illegal surgeries? I'm not sure what motivation you're envisioning for that one.

To the OP I don't have much expertise on this which is why I didn't answer, but it doesn't sound like something that would destroy her ( your ;) ) chances, especially if expunged. Tell her ( you ;) ) to not tangle with the popo again and she'll ( you'll ;) ) be fine.
I was being meta there.
 
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NotASerialKiller

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I can't honestly imagine that adcoms would auto reject someone for having a fake-ID incident. I'd think that it's common enough to be similarly handled as alcohol violations (which are like, 99% the same thing).

@NotASerialKiller I heard you have a "friend" who was named as a suspect in multiple homicides. Truth?
My friend has been instructed to not discuss any details of an ongoing investigation.
 

Cpt Ahab

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Excellent reasoning, every 19 year old kid using a fake ID is likely to eventually risk their job by stealing narcotics and... performing illegal surgeries? I'm not sure what motivation you're envisioning for that one.

To the OP I don't have much expertise on this which is why I didn't answer, but it doesn't sound like something that would destroy her ( your ;) ) chances, especially if expunged. Tell her ( you ;) ) to not tangle with the popo again and she'll ( you'll ;) ) be fine.
Slipper slope fallacy.
 

gonnif

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I know everyone says they ask for a friend but I'm ACTUALLY asking for a friend right now haha. She used a fake ID to get into a club last night, cops were right there and the bouncer immediately handed her ID to the cops. She admitted to it being fake, was completely honest with the cops, and they said thanks for being honest, because you were honest you can take a few classes and pay a fine and get this expunged from your record. However, the ticket still says misdemeanor on it so she's freaking out pretty hardcore. Let's say the cops are full of **** and it does become a misdemeanor and is on her record for good, how does this affect her chances at getting into med school? Any advice for her?

Thanks!
In the end, it doesnt matter as it has happened. Worrying about the chances seems simply to fuel the paranoia of fear, uncertainly and doubt (the dreaded FUD factor). You do what you need to and move on with an eventual application. Making a clear, concise, and coherent statement about may be necessary on the application (depending on the state where this occurred, if your friend was a juvenile, and if gets expunged). However, what would be the worst course of action is try to cover this up and not including it on any medical school application. That would be ethical violation and grounds for withdrawing an offer an acceptance
 

Mad Jack

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From an adcom's perspective, who are you going to take, the kid with the misdemeanor for having a fake ID, or the kid that never had a criminal record? It certainly won't do her any favors. She'll probably have to take on some additional positions of responsibility to show that she's capable of being a responsible adult that doesn't do stupid things all the time, because if I were to see a person with one charge from a fake ID I'd think, "and how many things has she done that she didn't get caught doing?"

Overall effect will probably be the same as an IA. Even if expunged, she will likely have to report on secondaries that she was charged, as many secondaries ask if you were ever charged with a crime, not merely if they were convicted. Expunged records do show up on many background checks, for the record, and will merely state that the charge was expunged and provide no other detail. She's got to live with this, class or not. So she's going to have to do some things to prove she's responsible and trustworthy to make the case that that was just a mistake and not who she is as a person.
 
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StudyLater

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Also, in the future, just do like Dwight:
Words to live by.

@missmd123 your friend was traded to the cops for the club owner's immunity from charges on trafficking X and running whores. But don't worry, there's an easy way out of this. You must fight fire with fire. Tell the cops the bouncer sexually harassed your friend. Proceed to laugh maniacally as all charges are dropped.
 

Goro

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Depends upon the age of the person. While one can be immature and stupid at any age, I still expect a 20 year to now better than a 17-18 year old. Using a fake ID requires knowledge aforethought to commit the transgression, and this is more troubling to an Adcom member.

Nevertheless, if she keeps her nose clean and has exemplary behavior, I think that she'll be OK. She can definitely expect to be asked out it at interviews.

I know everyone says they ask for a friend but I'm ACTUALLY asking for a friend right now haha. She used a fake ID to get into a club last night, cops were right there and the bouncer immediately handed her ID to the cops. She admitted to it being fake, was completely honest with the cops, and they said thanks for being honest, because you were honest you can take a few classes and pay a fine and get this expunged from your record. However, the ticket still says misdemeanor on it so she's freaking out pretty hardcore. Let's say the cops are full of **** and it does become a misdemeanor and is on her record for good, how does this affect her chances at getting into med school? Any advice for her?

Thanks!
 

gonnif

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As an aside,
Depends upon the age of the person. While one can be immature and stupid at any age, I still expect a 20 year to now better than a 17-18 year old. Using a fake ID requires knowledge aforethought to commit the transgression, and this is more troubling to an Adcom member.

Nevertheless, if she keeps her nose clean and has exemplary behavior, I think that she'll be OK. She can definitely expect to be asked out it at interviews.
As an aside, I will mention this under the category of "unbounded stupidity" or "ethically oblivious" A recently matriculated medical student recently posted on a class social media site that he/she had just purchased an anatomy app and that anyone who like him/her to log on their school-issued, HIPPA-compliant, patient-record accessible, fully-audited, and tracked device, so they can download it for free, please contact him/her.

As a class exercise, please list 5 legal and/or ethical issues this raises.
 
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xc_stallion92

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That's pretty harsh for a fake! "My friend" had one taken away in high school and again in college with no consequences except being denied admission to the bar.
Yeah, seriously. I've seen plenty of people get their fakes taken away and told to leave, but never seen the police get involved.
 

gonnif

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Yeah, seriously. I've seen plenty of people get their fakes taken away and told to leave, but never seen the police get involved.
Medical identity theft is considered a major issue across hospital chains, the most direct form of this is showing up at ER with fake ID.
 
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gonnif

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What does this have to do with showing up at the bar with a fake ID?
Less tolerance for this by medical schools then in the past.
Using something fraudulent as an indication of your integrity.
Willingness to causally break law(s) that you think are trivial
Substance abuse in the act of underage drinking
And lastly, lack of understanding the seriousness of this act
 

LizzyM

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:hijacked: just as an aside, this is what is wrong with the drinking age in the US. I get that there will be more accidents, injuries, etc with a lower drinking age (the drinking age when I was in college in the last century) but the trade off is that young people are evading the law and risking criminal records to do so but also developing a disregard for the law.
 

Affiche

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Less tolerance for this by medical schools then in the past.
Using something fraudulent as an indication of your integrity.
Willingness to causally break law(s) that you think are trivial
Substance abuse in the act of underage drinking
And lastly, lack of understanding the seriousness of this act
The two aren't related. Medical id theft occurs as a result of healthcare in our country being a privilege rather than a right. Fake ID's at the bar (which isn't necessarily ID theft) occurs because people don't care for an arbitrary age line set by the government. In one situation you're ripping someone off, in the other you're supporting a business!

Perhaps med schools are less tolerant. I'm 24 and I still don't understand the ''seriousness'' of the act.
 

gonnif

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The two aren't related. Medical id theft occurs as a result of healthcare in our country being a privilege rather than a right. Fake ID's at the bar (which isn't necessarily ID theft) occurs because people don't care for an arbitrary age line set by the government. In one situation you're ripping someone off, in the other you're supporting a business!

Perhaps med schools are less tolerant. I'm 24 and I still don't understand the ''seriousness'' of the act.
I will have to say I disagree

1) Willingness to use a fake ID at one establishment, such as a bar, may predispose someone to use it as a second establishment, say a hospital if, for example, they have alcohol poisoning or get into an altercation at a bar.
2) Willingness to break the law in using an fake ID may predispose someone to break the law further such as buying a drink for someone else who is underage, which is promoting delinquency of minor or to take advantage of someone sexually, which is now defined as rape.
3) Willingness to disregard the law as an "arbitrary age line set by the government" would make me question what other limits set by law, regulation, or protocols the user may disregard such as, say how many patients they are overseeing as an anesthesiologist.
4) Lastly, the willingness to use a fake ID, the acceptance of others who do so, and the lack of understanding how this violates legal, ethical, and integrity standards that one would hope a prospective physician would have.

I would like to say these are exercises in some ethical course. However these are issues in the past year or so I have had to deal with on a real world basis
 
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NotASerialKiller

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2) Willingness to break the law in using an fake ID may predispose someone to break the law further such as buying a drink for someone else who is underage, which is promoting delinquency of minor or to take advantage of someone sexually, which is now defined as rape.
Yes, someone who would balk at using a fake ID probably isn't going to be a rapist. But to claim that there is even a small reason to suspect that someone who uses a fake ID might be "predisposed" to get someone drunk and rape them is incredibly and offensively ridiculous.
 

Mad Jack

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The two aren't related. Medical id theft occurs as a result of healthcare in our country being a privilege rather than a right. Fake ID's at the bar (which isn't necessarily ID theft) occurs because people don't care for an arbitrary age line set by the government. In one situation you're ripping someone off, in the other you're supporting a business!

Perhaps med schools are less tolerant. I'm 24 and I still don't understand the ''seriousness'' of the act.
There's actually a few research papers (one of which is included below, if you've got a NEJM sub) out there on cheating in medical school (another form of dishonesty) being a major predictor (58% more likely) of disciplinary action by state medical boards:

Papadakis MA, Teherani A, Banach MA, et al. Disciplinary action by medical boards and prior behavior in medical school. N Engl J Med 2005;353:2673–2682

Basically, if you're willing to be dishonest when you view it as harmless and have very little incentive to be honest, you are way more likely to be dishonest when your *** is on the line. That's why adcoms take such behavior (fraudulent actions and cheating) so seriously, as they are a good predictor of whether one will cheat in medical school and carry that level of dishonesty into their future practice. The same kind of person that thinks an ID is just a needless barrier to their getting into a club or bar is the sort of person that will think certain pieces of paperwork aren't worth doing and use the copy forward function, never even reading the prior notes, for instance.

I do think that the drinking age should be 18, personally. But I also feel like anyone that is foolish enough to use a fake ID should be ready to face the consequences of that action, be they mild or not. There's plenty of ways to get drunk at that age that are far, far less risky. Getting a fake ID and using it in public to illegally purchase alcohol shows a level of prior planning, disregard for consequences, and disregard for the law that getting a bottle of wine or a six pack from some legal age person on campus.
 

Mad Jack

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Yes, someone who would balk at using a fake ID probably isn't going to be a rapist. But to claim that there is even a small reason to suspect that someone who uses a fake ID might be "predisposed" to get someone drunk and rape them is incredibly and offensively ridiculous.
I don't think that a person should be precluded from admission for getting caught with a fake ID, but they should certainly show some effort to prove that they don't just disregard the law on the regular and that they can behave in a responsible manner. It's not a deal breaker, it's a "this person needs a second, hard look before we consider them" sort of offense.
 
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gonnif

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Yes, someone who would balk at using a fake ID probably isn't going to be a rapist. But to claim that there is even a small reason to suspect that someone who uses a fake ID might be "predisposed" to get someone drunk and rape them is incredibly and offensively ridiculous.
Legally, the first act is already predisposition. And the case here that occurred when someone purposely sought to get another underage drunk in order to have sex. That is, as all applicants should realize is rape. If anyone has used to a fake ID to get into a bar and buy someone a drink with the idea of maybe they would get lucky, which is about every college male I know, would be guilty of the same. I consider this incredibly and nearly universally common
 
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I do think that the drinking age should be 18, personally. But I also feel like anyone that is foolish enough to use a fake ID should be ready to face the consequences of that action, be they mild or not. There's plenty of ways to get drunk at that age that are far, far less risky. Getting a fake ID and using it in public to illegally purchase alcohol shows a level of prior planning, disregard for consequences, and disregard for the law that getting a bottle of wine or a six pack from some legal age person on campus.
How is coercing someone else who is of legal age to buy you booze (i.e., getting them to break the law for you therefore disregarding their safety), illegally consuming said alcohol, probably sharing it with others who are underage, breaking school rules by having underage drinking in the dorms on top of the illegalities somehow exponentially worse than a girl who just wanted to go to the bar with her friends (and maybe didn't even want to drink, was just trying to get in). I'm getting the impression that you are just vilifying something you didn't do in college (that many, many others do) while blowing off something you did do as harmless college behavior, even though they are essentially the same: trying to circumvent the drinking age law in a community where underage drinking is considered acceptable.
 
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Affiche

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Legally, the first act is already predisposition. And the case here that occurred when someone purposely sought to get another underage drunk in order to have sex. That is, as all applicants should realize is rape. If anyone has used to a fake ID to get into a bar and buy someone a drink with the idea of maybe they would get lucky, which is about every college male I know, would be guilty of the same. I consider this incredibly and nearly universally common
Your arguments all depend on the slippery slope fallacy.
 
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Do these types of things show up on the AMCAS background check even after expungement? You have to typically disclose things on secondaries, but I thought only law enforcement has access to things like that after expungement?
 

Affiche

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There's actually a few research papers (one of which is included below, if you've got a NEJM sub) out there on cheating in medical school (another form of dishonesty) being a major predictor (58% more likely) of disciplinary action by state medical boards:

Papadakis MA, Teherani A, Banach MA, et al. Disciplinary action by medical boards and prior behavior in medical school. N Engl J Med 2005;353:2673–2682

Basically, if you're willing to be dishonest when you view it as harmless and have very little incentive to be honest, you are way more likely to be dishonest when your *** is on the line. That's why adcoms take such behavior (fraudulent actions and cheating) so seriously, as they are a good predictor of whether one will cheat in medical school and carry that level of dishonesty into their future practice. The same kind of person that thinks an ID is just a needless barrier to their getting into a club or bar is the sort of person that will think certain pieces of paperwork aren't worth doing and use the copy forward function, never even reading the prior notes, for instance.

I do think that the drinking age should be 18, personally. But I also feel like anyone that is foolish enough to use a fake ID should be ready to face the consequences of that action, be they mild or not. There's plenty of ways to get drunk at that age that are far, far less risky. Getting a fake ID and using it in public to illegally purchase alcohol shows a level of prior planning, disregard for consequences, and disregard for the law that getting a bottle of wine or a six pack from some legal age person on campus.
I don't agree that using a fake ID is synonymous with cheating though, so the extrapolation doesn't hold for me. Cheating is attempting to put yourself in a better position by gaining an achievement you didn't earn. It's for personal gain without the work. Using a fake doesn't gain you any accomplishment, it isn't stealing and it doesn't say you earned something that you didn't. It literally just means you'll buy this bar's booze a couple years (or months) earlier than you would otherwise.
 

NotASerialKiller

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Legally, the first act is already predisposition. And the case here that occurred when someone purposely sought to get another underage drunk in order to have sex. That is, as all applicants should realize is rape. If anyone has used to a fake ID to get into a bar and buy someone a drink with the idea of maybe they would get lucky, which is about every college male I know, would be guilty of the same. I consider this incredibly and nearly universally common
Ah, I see what you mean now. I think you're taking that law the wrong way though. Yes, by the letter of the law having sex with a woman (girlfriend or wife, even) who has consumed any alcohol is rape, but that law is just in place to stop anyone from ever using alcohol as a defence for rape (which they used to get away with), not because anyone actually thinks that having sex with an otherwise consenting adult who has had 1 beer should be a crime.

In your example it's either [fake ID user tries to ply someone with alcohol for sex which IS rape, but a silly argument as I previously stated] or [fake ID user buys someone a drink and goes home with them] which while technically against the law is not what that law is trying to stop.

But this is becoming quite tangential to the thread topic so I guess I shouldn't analyze this anymore.
 
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gonnif

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Your arguments all depend on the slippery slope fallacy.
If it were across occurrences (ie using it on one occasion then doing something else on another occasion). However, if it is occurring in the course of one evening, it would be considered intent or predisposition. And as I said before, these are not hypothetical discussion points but situations that have occurred in the past year or so
 
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gonnif

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How is coercing someone else who is of legal age to buy you booze (i.e., getting them to break the law for you therefore disregarding their safety), illegally consuming said alcohol, probably sharing it with others who are underage, breaking school rules by having underage drinking in the dorms on top of the illegalities somehow exponentially worse than a girl who just wanted to go to the bar with her friends (and maybe didn't even want to drink, was just trying to get in). I'm getting the impression that you are just vilifying something you didn't do in college (that many, many others do) while blowing off something you did do as harmless college behavior, even though they are essentially the same: trying to circumvent the drinking age law in a community where underage drinking is considered acceptable.
As I said, these are instances that I have had to deal with in the past year or so. These arent a vilifying something that I didnt do in college, oh my lord not by a long shot.
 
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I will have to concede that there is likely a higher correlation between users of fake IDs and rapists, if only because I never got a fake ID (tried and got ripped off one time though) and I am also not a rapist.
 

Affiche

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If it were across occurrences (ie using it on one occasion then doing something else on another occasion). However, if it is occurring in the course of one evening, it would be considered intent or predisposition. And as I said before, these are not hypothetical discussion points but situations that have occurred in the past year or so
Your third and fourth points were definitely slippery lol and your first two weren't far from it. You're suggesting that breaking one law will lead to breaking another. If we follow your logic of predispositions, no one should ever toast at a wedding because that puts them at a predisposition to get drunk!
 

NotASerialKiller

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As I said, these are instances that I have had to deal with in the past year or so. These arent a vilifying something that I didnt do in college, oh my lord not by a long shot.
But encountering several instances of someone using a fake ID to get into a bar and then committing statutory rape does not tell how you likely it is or how often people with fake IDs do this, let alone how often they do this relative to people not using fake IDs.

What we're saying is that using a fake ID is a terrible predictor of whether someone is going to commit statutory rape or any other offence. Of course neither of us have data on this, but I think you're biased by these situations you've had to deal with just like you might think we're biased because we know tons of people who use(d) fake IDs and aren't rapists.
 

Affiche

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I will have to concede that their is likely a higher correlation between users of fake IDs and rapists, if only because I never got a fake ID (tried and got ripped off one time though) and I am also not a rapist.
Lol what kind of logical reasoning is this? If not A and not B, then A--> B?!?
 
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Lol what kind of logical reasoning is this? If not A and not B, then A--> B?!?
I will need someone who understands statistics to explain it, as I clearly do not.
 
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Mad Jack

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How is coercing someone else who is of legal age to buy you booze (i.e., getting them to break the law for you therefore disregarding their safety), illegally consuming said alcohol, probably sharing it with others who are underage, breaking school rules by having underage drinking in the dorms on top of the illegalities somehow exponentially worse than a girl who just wanted to go to the bar with her friends (and maybe didn't even want to drink, was just trying to get in). I'm getting the impression that you are just vilifying something you didn't do in college (that many, many others do) while blowing off something you did do as harmless college behavior, even though they are essentially the same: trying to circumvent the drinking age law in a community where underage drinking is considered acceptable.
It's the level of consequences that is the problem, and the degree to which you have to premeditate to do one versus the other. Getting someone else to buy you alcohol will get you zero jail time, in most states- the person doing the buying is at fault. Buying a fake ID (a criminal offense), using a fake ID (a second criminal offense), and subsequently buying alcohol (a third criminal offense) is way worse legally and requires a far higher degree of both premeditation and not giving a **** about the law. Smart people stay on the right side of the law when they're doing questionable things if at all possible.

And I didn't have my first sip of alcohol until I was 21, actually.