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It can't though because there are plenty of reasons why B may occur (possibly more probable reasons) that have nothing to do with A. Those that aren't puking may have still drank spoilt milk and those that are puking may not have. There are too many variables to pick one and decide they have a bi-directional relationship.
But causation describes reasons. Correlation doesn't. It just says that these two things are more likely to happen together. Thats it.

It's irrelevant though, tbh. This is all based on speculation since no one has any hard data for the relationship in question.
I agree with this on a far more fundamental level than even you would be willing to take it.
 

Affiche

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But causation describes reasons. Correlation doesn't. It just says that these two things are more likely to happen together. Thats it.



I agree with this on a far more fundamental level than even you would be willing to take it.
My (poorly articulated) point was that there are too many variables to say there's a correlation at all. You can't suggest that one thing leads to another and thus there's a correlation. But I think we agree here that without data this is pointless.
 
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Mad Jack

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My (poorly articulated) point was that there are too many variables to say there's a correlation at all. You can't suggest that one thing leads to another and thus there's a correlation. But I think we agree here that without data this is pointless.
Except that I posted a link that discusses an article that demonstrates an extremely high statistical causative relationship between underage drinking and future criminal behavior.
 

Affiche

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Except that I posted a link that discusses an article that demonstrates an extremely high statistical causative relationship between underage drinking and future criminal behavior.
Did you? I've been on my phone so I've been skimming. Is it the Miami study (I hope not bc that study is garbage)?
 

LizzyM

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One really needs to look at absolute risk rather than relative risk.

The NIAAA reports that 60% of college students ages 18-22 report having a drink in the past month. Let's say that the proportion of underage students who drink is 40%.

What is the absolute risk of going on to commit crimes if you are a college student who drinks before age 21?

My experience with IAs involving alcohol is that adcoms don't make a huge deal of it because they understand the absolute risk of having such students in the medical school compared with students who either never drank or drank but never got caught.
 
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missmd123

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I had this happen to me.

I went to 10 AA meetings and got it expunged from my record. Applied to medical school, nobody asked about it. Didn't mention it. Got in fine.

When I was starting work at my job before applying to medical school, I had to do a background check. The only thing that showed up was the traffic ticket I received. Nothing else. I didn't pay for the Certiphi (AMCAS) background check report and assumed it would be clean.

It'll say misdemeanor on the ticket, but once she goes to court the judge will lower it.
Thanks for the response and for putting her mind at ease haha.
 

Stagg737

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I mean honestly, the kids I know who cheated in college were the ones whose lives were centered around academic success, and they rarely drank or socialized at all.
That's the complete opposite from everyone I've talked to and my personal experience. The kids who go out and party, aren't responsible with their academics, and need a way to bail themselves out last minute are the ones who plagiarize or cheat. Not the ones that put the time and effort in.

Anyway, in regards to OP's situation, all this talk about correlation and behavior is irrelevant. The bottom line is that it's a blemish on a person's record. Some schools will reject people because they have a D/F grade on their transcript or too many C's. Having a felony or misdemeanor may or may not be worse than that (a felony certainly is, misdemeanor is arguable) but it doesn't change the fact they've got a red flag to overcome. Besides, multiple adcoms have already given their opinions and said they'd rather take someone without that detail in their app but that it's not going to outright kill one's chances. At the end of the day that's who is deciding the fate of OP/OP's friend/whatever person has a record, so what pre-meds, med students, or even attendings
think is irrelevant.
 
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I had this happen to me.

I went to 10 AA meetings and got it expunged from my record. Applied to medical school, nobody asked about it. Didn't mention it. Got in fine.

When I was starting work at my job before applying to medical school, I had to do a background check. The only thing that showed up was the traffic ticket I received. Nothing else. I didn't pay for the Certiphi (AMCAS) background check report and assumed it would be clean.

It'll say misdemeanor on the ticket, but once she goes to court the judge will lower it.
I'm assuming you did disclose that you got into trouble on your secondaries? I know that expunging things gives you the right to say you weren't ever in trouble, but I don't think that that applies to Med-school applications. I'm just curious, not taking a shot.
 
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It's only stupid if you get caught :sneaky:
Definitely false. It is stupider not to get caught and to keep on doing something stupid/sneaky. Better to overcome it, develop some humility and integrity, and apologize for your past mistakes. Ditch this attitude fast before going into medicine, rachiie01. Integrity is one of the key components of your career that you can't afford to do without.
 

gonnif

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Hey gonnif, using a fake id is a precursor to rape? Are you seriously making this claim as if it has any basis in reality?
I think Gonnif is usually pretty reasonable and gives great advice.

However, here I really have to respectfully disagree with the good intentions adcom.

Using a fake id as a precursor to rape is just ridiculous. .
With all the massive publicity on sexual assaults on campus and federal guidelines now requiring colleges to train all their students, including the concept of consent, that a group of prospective doctors cannot follow this. If you use a fake ID to buy a girl a drink, and she later claims you took sexual advantage of her, having used a the fake ID would be a predicate factor in the case, showing intent. Since consent cannot be given by someone under the influence of alcohol, it would be deemed rape, and use of a fake ID then can be made into an additional felony under fraud or facilitating criminal activity. If you recall about 2 years ago, the Dept of Education released the names of some 150 campus with deficiencies in handling sexual assault cases, including some medical schools. Several of these cases included use of fraudulent IDs to purchase alcohol. One, in Virgina or WV, was eventually prosecuted with conspiracy as one guy helped his buddy get a fake ID who in turned got a girl drunk. As I said in my first post on this, this isnt projection on my part but reading reports on the issue
 
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Affiche

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Definitely false. It is stupider not to get caught and to keep on doing something stupid/sneaky. Better to overcome it, develop some humility and integrity, and apologize for your past mistakes. Ditch this attitude fast before going into medicine, rachiie01. Integrity is one of the key components of your career that you can't afford to do without.
Classic SDN response. ''OMG you're indifferent towards underage drinking= you'll make a terrible doctor''.

The fact that anyone would imply that I lack humility or integrity is comical.
 

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With all the massive publicity on sexual assaults on campus and federal guidelines now requiring colleges to train all their students, including the concept of consent, that a group of prospective doctors cannot follow this. If you use a fake ID to buy a girl a drink, and she later claims you took sexual advantage of her, having used a the fake ID would be a predicate factor in the case, showing intent. Since consent cannot be given by someone under the influence of alcohol, it would be deemed rape, and use of a fake ID then can be made into an additional felony under fraud or facilitating criminal activity. If you recall about 2 years ago, the Dept of Education released the names of some 150 campus with deficiencies in handling sexual assault cases, including some medical schools. Several of these cases included use of fraudulent IDs to purchase alcohol. One, in Virgina or WV, was eventually prosecuted with conspiracy as one guy helped his buddy get a fake ID who in turned got a girl drunk. As I said in my first post on this, this isnt projection on my part but reading reports on the issue
It's an enormous jump to go from using a fake id to raping someone. just because someone has done it doesn't mean that everyone does it. Willingness to break the law does not predispose to breaking other laws.
 

Affiche

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John had been stabbed in the leg while attempting to rape a woman in alley behind the pub. Injured, he limped to the nearest car and hot-wired it to drive himself to the closest hospital, narrowly missing a few pedestrians as he sped down the highway heavily intoxicated. In the ER, he used an ID he stole from the stolen vehicle to commit medical identity theft, since he didn't have health insurance and needed medical attention. Poor John would still be insured if he didn't lose his job as a physician after being caught forging signatures to obtain prescription drugs for himself. "How did I get here?", John thought.
...It all started in college when John used a fake ID to get a beer.
 

gonnif

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It's an enormous jump to go from using a fake id to raping someone. just because someone has done it doesn't mean that everyone does it. Willingness to break the law does not predispose to breaking other laws.
But remember this is what college and medical school administrators are seeing in the past two years of what is the worst that can happen and what their institutions have to be wary of. These schools do not want to be mentioned on a public report by the Federal Education Department. And unlike simple colleges, the hospital systems that most medical schools are associated with would come down hard on an administration if they admitted student with anything on his/her record who later has a sexual non-consent case, even if off-campus, like happened to WVCOM. What used to be nearly non-issues a few years ago, such as IA on underage drinking, fake ID, rowdy behavior, etc, are now high visibility, avoid at all cost, items. Because the simple act of going to be with a girl who had a couple of drinks with a fake ID is now considered rape/sexual assualt in the eyes of DOE. Why should administrators take a chance on such a student, no matter how remote the possibilities, when there are so many applicants?

So, in many adcom's eyes, breaking any law now is already a risk (to blame falling on the adcom) if the student gets in trouble later. They dont want to be on this list
http://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/us-department-education-releases-list-higher-education-institutions-open-title-ix-sexual-violence-investigations
 
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NotASerialKiller

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Oh dear we're still on this?

With all the massive publicity on sexual assaults on campus and federal guidelines now requiring colleges to train all their students, including the concept of consent, that a group of prospective doctors cannot follow this. If you use a fake ID to buy a girl a drink, and she later claims you took sexual advantage of her, having used a the fake ID would be a predicate factor in the case, showing intent. Since consent cannot be given by someone under the influence of alcohol, it would be deemed rape, and use of a fake ID then can be made into an additional felony under fraud or facilitating criminal activity. If you recall about 2 years ago, the Dept of Education released the names of some 150 campus with deficiencies in handling sexual assault cases, including some medical schools. Several of these cases included use of fraudulent IDs to purchase alcohol. One, in Virgina or WV, was eventually prosecuted with conspiracy as one guy helped his buddy get a fake ID who in turned got a girl drunk. As I said in my first post on this, this isnt projection on my part but reading reports on the issue
Gonnif buying alcohol alone shows intent if you get someone drunk and then rape them. That's all that is needed. The fact that using a fake ID might result in an additional charge... well who gives a ****, we're taking about a rapist here. The notion that an adcom would look at a fake ID charge and think, "Hm... maybe a rapist?" is pretty absurd.

Statutory rape happens all the time. With fake IDs, with real IDs, with other drugs, with forcefulness and/or pressure alone. The legal system is set up to protect rape victims, so if a girl claims that you sexually assaulted her they don't need to look for additional "proof" like using a fake ID to buy alcohol. Any alcohol consumption, or even her saying that she said no and you ignored her, is enough. I think adcoms would be aware of this and not see a fake ID as a tool to rape, but a tool for kids to get drunk like most underage college kids do.
 

gonnif

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The difference that everyone overlooking is the recent DOE list that schools want to avoid being on. This has changed the perception and the risk of unwanted and negative publicity for the schools.
 
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NotASerialKiller

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The difference that everyone overlooking is the recent DOE list that schools want to avoid being on. This has changed the perception and the risk of unwanted and negative publicity for the schools.
That doesn't seem to be how LizzyM views this infraction:

Fake IDs are ubiquitous on college campuses. Underage drinking is ubiquitous and stings are relatively common, too. Sometimes the only difference between a kid with a record and one without is that one of them got caught. (Same can be said for speeding tickets among drivers of all ages.)

I do worry that intoxication puts women at increased risk of victimization but that is separate from fake IDs. It is also part of our culture where drinking as a forbidden activity for most college-age students becomes all the more enticing.
While Goro supported the idea that any misdemeanour no matter how minor means that someone is more likely to break rules as a doctor, I didn't see him saying anything about not wanting to accept someone with a fake ID charge because of what else they might have done or tried to do.

I don't disagree that adcoms are less likely to accept someone with any charge, but I very much disagree that something as common as underage drinking and fake IDs puts images of rape and other heinous crimes in their minds. A previous marijuana possession charge is unappealing, but I seriously doubt it leads adcoms to believe that they'd be at risk of letting someone in who might be a Columbian coke smuggler.
 
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Stepping into the shoes of devil's advocate here. What if a pre-med student has an isolated misdemeanor charge for mariuana possession and from this experience, gets their life in order and knows in the future (med school, residency etc.) that it's not worth it to smoke something illegal to take the edge off when times get rough. However, little goody goody Johnny over here, who has a spotless record is getting overwhelmed in medical school and has heard that weed can help him relax. Due to his overwhelmed state of mind, he drops his morals and tokes up, and then proceeds to get caught. Poor Johnny. (I've seen so many straight-edge students in high school get to college, experience stressful situations and become someone completely different)

My point is that SOMETIMES, a pre-med student can learn from the isolated experience and realize that it's just not worth it in the future no matter the situation. Having that foundation of learning from a mistake, in my opinion, can be just as much of a detractor from not doing it again as the research has shown that one is more prone to partake in a similar activity in a different setting.
 
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Classic SDN response. ''OMG you're indifferent towards underage drinking= you'll make a terrible doctor''.

The fact that anyone would imply that I lack humility or integrity is comical.
This has nothing to do with my views on underage drinking. This is a question of whether someone's moral views are shaped primarily by who's looking, and you imply that transgressions are fine unless someone catches you. Our entire school is run on the basis of an honor code. Tests are taken from home on the premise that you are a consistent person regardless of who's looking. Medicine works like this in "real life." If you slip by and nobody notices, the only people who suffer may be your patients. "Terrible doctor"? Depends on how you define priorities. I don't know you, or how much you were joking, but I know plenty of great doctors, and they consistently don't think like this.
 

Affiche

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This has nothing to do with my views on underage drinking. This is a question of whether someone's moral views are shaped primarily by who's looking, and you imply that transgressions are fine unless someone catches you. Our entire school is run on the basis of an honor code. Tests are taken from home on the premise that you are a consistent person regardless of who's looking. Medicine works like this in "real life." If you slip by and nobody notices, the only people who suffer may be your patients. "Terrible doctor"? Depends on how you define priorities. I don't know you, or how much you were joking, but I know plenty of great doctors, and they consistently don't think like this.
No, it has to do with you perceiving yourself as morally superior (Classic SDN, btw) and in a position to tell others what their attitudes should be to be a good doctor. That's rubbish, especially because you do this while preaching about the importance of humility.

Again, because I don't care about underage drinking does not mean you can extrapolate and deduce that I won't care about an honor system or my career. The two are unrelated and, as you said, you don't know anything about me (so why you thought you would try to advise me is beyond me....). My moral views vary depending on the transgression; not every transgression is the same. Would you consider a 5 year old lying about spilling milk to have the same moral standing as a rapist? Of course not.

I was kidding, by the way, which you probably would have realized if you weren't so focused on the stick up your butt. Sorry, but it's true.
 
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Affiche

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And even though I was kidding I still believe underage drinking is fine as long as the kid isn't stupid about it. Drink responsibly and not in front of your uptight parents or a cop lol. That does not in any way indicate how morally I behave as a student or clinician.
 
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I object only to the validity of the "it's only stupid if you get caught" mentality as being a good thing to live by or at all appropriate in medicine. again, i imply nothing specifically about underage drinking.

quite interesting to be promoted to classic sdn as i only joined a few weeks ago! i guess you could say i'm just classic med school.

but dude. everyone above you for the whole rest of your life if you continue in medicine will tell you about the big P, "Professionalism," and how their visions for being a good doctor ought to apply to you. and it will sound preachy. and it will usually sound like plenty of sticks stuck up there or possibly a never-ending anoscopy. handling it with grace and minimal indignation will save you a lot of trouble, unless there is some really important issue at stake worth campaigning for. otherwise it is not worth your trouble or all the drama drama. then again regina george is a queen of drama. spare everyone.

i'm out.
 
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I wish there was a love button for this!

In case you're somewhat serious (idk b/c of your avatar), this was actually said to a male in the movie ;)
Well I'm glad their privilege was thoroughly checked. Mean Girls reinforces the problematic social construct that females are inherently feminine.
 
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ZedsDed

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I can't tell if his sig is sarcasm or for real considering what he said in the urm thread.
C'mon dude, do you really think he is an "LGBTWTFBBQ trans-racial demi-queer muslim atheist?" lol
 
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Gandyy

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You're an idiot
Hes probably trolling. Thats all he ever does. Its not even good trolling though. Its just outright annoying and immature.

So in his trolling efforts, the end result is the same and you would still be correct.
 
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missmd123

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Just an update, my friend didn't even get a misdemeanor or anything for that matter on her record in the first place. There is nothing to be expunged because she just had to plead guilty, go to one AA meeting, take an alcohol/drug awareness class, and pay a fine in order for this to not show in her record. There is nothing currently on her record however, so again there is nothing to be expunged and her record is clean unless she fails to take the class and go to the AA meeting. Pretty great outcome if you ask me haha.