Fallback: Law School?

Started by gary yoghurt
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Doctor Bagel said:
Don't go to law school unless you really want to be a lawyer. Doing it as a fallback is a pretty surefire way to be miserable.
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Agree with this. And the corollary to this is that if you think you'd be just as happy in law or another non-health career than medicine, then definitely don't go into medicine.

It's all well and nice that you (OP) want a professional career with a nice income, but you are setting yourself up to be miserable for many years if you aren't shooting for a career because it actually interests you rather than a career you think will earn you a porsche. I mean, I have a friend who bought a fast food franchise (for a lot less than med school or law school costs) and who now makes decent money and drives a porsche and doesn't have the same kind of hours, pressure or headaches a doctor or lawyer has. Your career goal should be about what interests you, what you think you might enjoy. Let the money be a happy perquisite, not the driving force. There are infinite numbers of ways a smart person can make decent money.

No real point doing 4 years of school and 3+ years of residency and owing 6 new porsche's worth of debt so that you can afford to buy one some day.
 
Law2Doc said:
Agree with this. And the corollary to this is that if you think you'd be just as happy in law or another non-health career than medicine, then definitely don't go into medicine.

It's all well and nice that you (OP) want a professional career with a nice income, but you are setting yourself up to be miserable for many years if you aren't shooting for a career because it actually interests you rather than a career you think will earn you a porsche. I mean, I have a friend who bought a fast food franchise (for a lot less than med school or law school costs) and who now makes decent money and drives a porsche and doesn't have the same kind of hours, pressure or headaches a doctor or lawyer has. Your career goal should be about what interests you, what you think you might enjoy. Let the money be a happy perquisite, not the driving force. There are infinite numbers of ways a smart person can make decent money.

No real point doing 4 years of school and 3+ years of residency and owing 6 new porsche's worth of debt so that you can afford to buy one some day.
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Since you've done both law and medicine, I'm curious to know your opinion on what the difference is in the style of thinking demanded by both careers. How do they differ in the types of mental aptitudes that are used on a daily basis? Any insights you have along these lines would be greatly appreciated.
 
wannabeharvardm said:
Not really. A good LSAT is all it really takes to get into law school. Smart people w/o great grades or ec's could easily get into a top-tier law school when they wouldn't get into med school.
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I hate to agree with some guy that's banned, but an older brother from my fraternity was admitted to (and of course he went) harvard law 4 years ago with a great LSAT and a GPA of 3.2.
 
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littlealex said:
I hate to agree with some guy that's banned, but an older brother from my fraternity was admitted to (and of course he went) harvard law 4 years ago with a great LSAT and a GPA of 3.2.
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Maybe, but he's obviously an exception. The average GPA at Harvard is like a 3.8, and half the kids went to either Harvard or Yale.
 
I'm going to second what others have stated in this thread... it's a horrible idea if you are doing it because you don't know what else to do. I'm not going to go into a huge rant and remind myself of the stupid mistake I made, but PM me if you need further convincing.
 
utahjazz said:
I'm going to second what others have stated in this thread... it's a horrible idea if you are doing it because you don't know what else to do. I'm not going to go into a huge rant and remind myself of the stupid mistake I made, but PM me if you need further convincing.
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I'd like to know what you have to say. Spill it.
 
I'm no longer in the place in my life where I look to a job to make me happy. I realize that I hate working. Period. I just need to find a job that will support the things I value when I'm not working.
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Haha...remind me not to refer you any patients 😱

Seriously, no matter how cynical we all are, I think each of us has at least a minimal amount of enthusiasm about becoming a doctor. If you don't, give up the seat to someone who does.

My uncle was in the opposite situation - he was going to go to med school....was a chem major and figured med school was the "easy" option for financial stability. One day in his senior year, he got drunk and had a long conversation with a friend about what he was really interested in. The next morning he showed up at the LSAT examination, hung over, and aced it. He is now a happy, succesful, practicing lawyer.

So the principle is, do what feels right. OK so you "hate working"...try to realize that work is infinitely more enjoyable if it interests you.
 
gary yoghurt said:
To answer you, my heart isn't in a career. All I really care about is family and friends. I like bull****ting, BBQs, the occasional joint, sailboats, traveling, and HDTV. Oh, and financial security and social prestige.
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Avoid medicine and law. These are probably two of the worst careers I know for folks whose heart isn't in it. These career paths eat their young.

Med school if four years of long hard hours that aren't all that sexy or intrinsically exciting followed by residency, which is poor pay and long hours. So seven to ten years of absolute hell, unless you're doing what you love. After graduating, medicine is a long path of constant learning just to maintaiin ability (never mind to improve) and long hours, so you're looking at a crummy lifetime if you don't love it.

Never been to law school, but I hear it's a tough three years as well. And lawyers are slaves to the clock incented and needed to work long, long hours. Junior lawyers pretty much need to kill themselves with hours if they want to get ahead. There's the possibility of an early retirement if you work very hard for 30 years and don't live a lavish lifestyle, but your porsch and summer home aren't going to impress the ladies that much when it's combined with male pattern baldness and acid reflux.

List the things you love, and pick the career at the top of that list that has enough money and prestige to satsify you. Keep in mind that there are lots of 9-5 careers in which you can make good livings (few of them professional), but very few in which you can make lots. I came to medicine at 35 from business, and I don't know anyone who earned anywhere near six figures on a 40 hour workweek.

Best of luck with finding the right path for you...
 
I know several lawyers (one of whom is a parent) and most of them, in retrospect, tell me they would rather get hit with a brick once a day than go practice law.
 
In the book "Better" by Atul Gawande, he talks about someone who switched into law after decades of doing surgery. The guy apparently got worn out and bored of doing the same operations over and over again. Now he helps patients file malpractice lawsuits against physicians who really mess up. Apparently, he's not out to get doctors, just to look out for patients and make more money.
 
btc8 said:
Umm..have you've tried the LSAT? I think it's harder than the MCAT!!!! Not to mention, Law School is about as competitive as Med School--I mean if you want the top programs in like Patent Law, Intellectual Property, Criminal Law, etc...
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I thought criminal law was one of the easiest areas. At least, that's what my brother said, and he went to law school.
 
I'd never go to law school. It's my worst nightmare. My mother keeps encouraging me to do so, though!
 
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CoolSpot7Up said:
In the book "Better" by Atul Gawande, he talks about someone who switched into law after decades of doing surgery. The guy apparently got worn out and bored of doing the same operations over and over again. Now he helps patients file malpractice lawsuits against physicians who really mess up. Apparently, he's not out to get doctors, just to look out for patients and make more money.
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Ya. J Kenyon Rainer is also a brain surgeon gone lawyer. I'm still waiting for any of the lawyers on this board to tell me what's so awful about law. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I've never been given a good explanation (even by lawyers).
 
gary yoghurt said:
Ya. J Kenyon Rainer is also a brain surgeon gone lawyer. I'm still waiting for any of the lawyers on this board to tell me what's so awful about law. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I've never been given a good explanation (even by lawyers).
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Briefly- you are either chained to a desk doing (repetitive) paperwork all day or making old ladies cry during depositions. Legal research is extremely boring and endless. Document review (what all young associates start doing) makes your eyes (and fingers when luddites send over hundreds of boxes of documents instead of CDs) bleed. The system sucks and as a result cases are long and dragged out and extremely wasteful. It's extremely arbitrary... the law is whatever the judge says it is on a given day. You can file a Complaint in state court full of BS and lies without any negative consequences. People with deep pockets often just settle frivolous claims to avoid endless litigation. People lie like crazy and you can pay an expert to say almost anything. I also have a moral problem from the advocacy standpoint since you have to argue in your client's favor on everything & surprisingly your client is not always right. It's even worse when you lose a motion and you are certain the law & facts are on your side. Dealing with lawyers all day is one of the worst parts of the job. You also have to keep track of your every move throughout the day for billing purposes. End rant. Time to get back to the drudgery.
 
gary yoghurt said:
Ya. J Kenyon Rainer is also a brain surgeon gone lawyer. I'm still waiting for any of the lawyers on this board to tell me what's so awful about law. I'm not saying they're wrong, but I've never been given a good explanation (even by lawyers).
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Um, nothing is awful about law. Law is great for folks who are really into it. You work with interesting clients, and often on interesting deals. But if you aren't really interested in it (and above you've made pretty clear you aren't), it's going to be a rotten way to spend 60+ hours per week.

I'll give you an example: It's not uncommon, for example, for a first year corporate lawyer to spend many weeks going through a warehouse worth of boxed up documents containing every piece of commercial documentation/correspondence of a company in preparation for a sale or merger of that company -- it's called due diligence, and is where much of the legal fees come from on big deals. Somebody has to look in all the closets to make sure there are no skeletons that could affect the deal (or the price). If you catch something you are a momentary hero, if you miss something, you could get canned. So you read every word carefully. Which can be cool if you really want to know every little detail about a business, how it runs, or doesn't. Or you could find it incredibly tedious. In later years you might be negotiating deal documents, which often involves reading every provision of a 100+ page contract, discussing all your mark-ups and stickies with the deal team and incorporating all of their comments onto your copy, and then spending hours/days on the phone with another similar level attorney at another firm asking for those changes both major and minor (sometimes even comma placement can tank a tenuous deal). If it sounds fun to you, then go for it, lots of people get off on working on the multi-million dollar deals, flying in to big cities for meetings in big conference rooms, hanging with the I-bankers. Others get burnt out fast.

But it's a lousy way to spend your very long days if you don't get any enjoyment out of it. (Such is the case with medicine as well).
Figure out what you want to do for a living. Then worry about the pay. There are infinite possibilities for smart people who just care about the money, and there is bound to be something that both is lucrative and you get some satisfaction out of it. Keep looking
 
Law2Doc said:
Um, nothing is awful about law. Law is great for folks who are really into it. You work with interesting clients, and often on interesting deals. But if you aren't really interested in it (and above you've made pretty clear you aren't), it's going to be a rotten way to spend 60+ hours per week.

I'll give you an example: It's not uncommon, for example, for a first year corporate lawyer to spend many weeks going through a warehouse worth of boxed up documents containing every piece of commercial documentation/correspondence of a company in preparation for a sale or merger of that company -- it's called due diligence, and is where much of the legal fees come from on big deals. Somebody has to look in all the closets to make sure there are no skeletons that could affect the deal (or the price). If you catch something you are a momentary hero, if you miss something, you could get canned. So you read every word carefully. Which can be cool if you really want to know every little detail about a business, how it runs, or doesn't. Or you could find it incredibly tedious. In later years you might be negotiating deal documents, which often involves reading every provision of a 100+ page contract, discussing all your mark-ups and stickies with the deal team and incorporating all of their comments onto your copy, and then spending hours/days on the phone with another similar level attorney at another firm asking for those changes both major and minor (sometimes even comma placement can tank a tenuous deal). If it sounds fun to you, then go for it, lots of people get off on working on the multi-million dollar deals, flying in to big cities for meetings in big conference rooms, hanging with the I-bankers. Others get burnt out fast.

But it's a lousy way to spend your very long days if you don't get any enjoyment out of it. (Such is the case with medicine as well).
Figure out what you want to do for a living. Then worry about the pay. There are infinite possibilities for smart people who just care about the money, and there is bound to be something that both is lucrative and you get some satisfaction out of it. Keep looking
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What does being really interested in it mean? Serious question.
 
gary yoghurt said:
What does being really interested in it mean? Serious question.
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Did you read my last post and say -- that sounds cool, sign me up? Are you intrigued by the ins and outs of business deals and want to play an unglamorous but critically important role? I can't really tell you if you are interested in something -- you have to figure that out. Don't treat a career like a plea bargain -- trying to figure out what you can endure best. Find something you like. So I suggest you go shadow. Get a job as a paralegal at a lawfirm, and see what folks actually do there, and whether it seems like fun. Do the same with medicine. Don't focus on the prizes, focus on the race. Because if the race is intolerable, no prize at the end will get you your life back.
 
doinmybest5840 said:
I thought criminal law was one of the easiest areas. At least, that's what my brother said, and he went to law school.
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Well, there's not a lot of money to be made there, and most criminal attorneys are solo practitioners or in small firms. So yeah, it's not the prestigious thing to do. The competitive jobs are with the big law firms that do work for all the big companies. It makes sense when you think about it.

As for getting in, yeah, law school is probably a little less competitive overall, but you do have to have fairly good numbers to get into a good program. And believe me, there are lots of people out there who can't master the LSAT no matter how hard they try. The main thing that makes law school admissions easier is that it really is a huge numbers game, so you don't have to worry about things like volunteering or doing well on an interview -- in fact, law schools don't generally interview applicants.

If you're really thinking about law school, my big advice would be to get some legal experience before hand to see if you like it. And don't buy any of the nonsense about a law degree being another liberal arts degree or whatever that you can do anything with. A law degree trains you to be a lawyer period. It's not an ideal path to get to another profession.
 
Doctor Bagel said:
And don't buy any of the nonsense about a law degree being another liberal arts degree or whatever that you can do anything with. A law degree trains you to be a lawyer period. It's not an ideal path to get to another profession.
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I agree with this. While a law degree is practically useful in a variety of fields, it doesn't really open doors to those other fields. Only go that route if you plan to practice law. Don't do it because you finished 4 years of college and don't know where else to turn. So too medicine. These are huge drains of time and money if you don't actually have the appropriate interest and desire. Spend your 20s doing something fulfilling. If being a professional doesn't do that, there are other paths.
 
Thirded... I'd always get people telling me about all the things that "people with law degrees can do," but the reality is that you at least need to be a lawyer for a few years. All of the other things you can do don't typically come till later, and you often really have to look for them. Lawyers can be senators, for example.

Doctor Bagel said:
And don't buy any of the nonsense about a law degree being another liberal arts degree or whatever that you can do anything with. A law degree trains you to be a lawyer period. It's not an ideal path to get to another profession.
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As for what makes a good lawyer, I'd say: attention to detail, mental stamina, and some ability to advocate/spin. Of course, there are many types of lawyers, so there are different qualities that make for good specialists (e.g. tax attorneys tend to be people who are really, really into learning all the rules, etc.)


gary yoghurt said:
Bagel, Law2Doc, et al.

What makes someone a good lawyer?
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kidthor said:
As for what makes a good lawyer, I'd say: attention to detail, mental stamina, and some ability to advocate/spin. Of course, there are many types of lawyers, so there are different qualities that make for good specialists (e.g. tax attorneys tend to be people who are really, really into learning all the rules, etc.)
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As with any career, if you are really interested in it, excited by it, and know all the ins and outs and little details of the craft, you are going to be good at it. But probably the most important thing, which is actually the same as in medicine or any service industry, is to be curious and a good listener. Because when you get down to it, your job is to help your client/patient, and you do that better if you give them the time of day, and really listen to what they are saying.
 
gary yoghurt said:
Anyone considering going to law school if they don't get in? If so, explain.
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If you're all about the prestige and money, I'm not sure law school is for you. My dad is an administrative judge and he never wanted me to go into law. Becoming a lawyer is no longer a guarantee of wealth- in my state alone, there are over 10 law schools and they admit 200+ people, twice a year. In Portland alone, there is one lawyer for every 3 citizens. In order to make it as a lawyer, you have to know people- you have to have a job lined up in a successful practice before you even graduate. This is not true for schools like Harvard, NYU, etc.. you graduate from there and you will be a baller. But, if you don't know anyone and you've been concentrating on pre-med reqs for the last few years, you prob won't get into one of those schools. So if you want prestige and wealth, stick with medicine. If you just want wealth, head to wall street.
 
pakbabydoll said:
Pharmacy!
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Not a bad suggestion, actually. It's a lot easier to find a job in pharmacy where you just go to work every day, do your thing, and then go home without having to worry about what you did at work that day. And you can collect a six-figure paycheck.

Seeing how most of the posters in here are non-trads who are telling you not to do either (unless you truly like them, which it doesn't sound like you do), I'd go with their wisdom.
 
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It is worth checking out though - OP might be interested in it once learning more about the practice of law. Like Law2Doc suggested, one would get a great exposure to law by working as a paralegal.

A lot of my friends, even some who became lawyers by accident (just took the LSAT on a whim, applied, etc) love their job. Even some of my friends who do M&A document review love their job - so you never know!


TheProwler said:
Seeing how most of the posters in here are non-trads who are telling you not to do either (unless you truly like them, which it doesn't sound like you do), I'd go with their wisdom.
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kidthor said:
It is worth checking out though - OP might be interested in it once learning more about the practice of law. Like Law2Doc suggested, one would get a great exposure to law by working as a paralegal.

A lot of my friends, even some who became lawyers by accident (just took the LSAT on a whim, applied, etc) love their job. Even some of my friends who do M&A document review love their job - so you never know!
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All of my friends who decided to be a paralegal for a summer (or longer) before going to law school subsequently decided not to go to law school after doing so. It's a real eye-opener.

But yeah, if it's actually something the OP might be interested in, check it out. I do believe that the people on SDN that suggest only going into medicine "as a last resort" (i.e., after checking everything else out that you might be equally interested in) are giving good advice.
 
DeadCactus said:
You hate working so you pick careers that have the longest work weeks. Good call, bud. Do you smoke 3 packs a day because you hate cancer too?
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Are you suggesting that people who smoke 3 packs a day like cancer? Moded.

Unfortunately, humans aren't binary robots. We often have competing and conflicting interests. Life sucks.
 
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